Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over

[Dourgrim]

I am suddenly VERY glad I didn't chime in until this conversation got to this point, although I wish I wasn't up at 1am.

BB, you do realize that your entire defense post up there could be distilled down to "You're right about everything, but I'm not scum, honest!" don't you? How is that even a defense? How can you say that people's methods for scumhunting suck and then agree with the person that the person you say "sucks" is agreeing with?

(Wow, that

sentence

sucks, but moving on...)

Believe me, I

totally

get how irritating GIEFF's playstyle can be. but you're not helping your case at all by repeated use of the word "suck" and vulgarity in general, not to mention the CAPS. I'd much rather you try to convince the Town of your innocence with eloquence than an attack on GIEFF's playstyle (which, again, can certainly be annoying, true). At this point, by your own admission, your playstyle (ignoring the game, following others' votes without reasoning, etc) isn't much better, and you agree the case against you is strong, and you agree that you look scummy at this point. So, in all seriousness, tell me one thing: why shouldn't anyone vote for you at this point?

unvote: GIEFF

FoS: GIEFF

for the same reasons as my vote was. I think the case against BB is just plain stronger at this point, and considering the playstyle of the suspect, I won't be sad to see a lynch here.

vote: Beyond_Birthday

(Oh, and by the way, BB, GIEFF said he'd be OK with lynches of Panzer, myko, and BB. That's three, which is far from half the town, BB. Matter of fact, that's almost exactly the number of scum I'd probably put into a mini game if I were designing the setup,

maybe

four if there were strong Town roles in play. Hmmm...)

And your vote at the end of your "defense" is a vote for Zilla because you're suspicious of being defended by someone who didn't vote for you? I'm going to assume you're NOT trying to imply that you've been intentionally playing poorly to see if scum would jump out and defend you, correct? You say that people too quick to jump on a bandwagon that results in a lynch should be suspected, but then you criticize someone for not being quick enough to vote while presenting a case. Shouldn't you pick one here?

Goatrevolt: I didn't miss your request above, but I think the conversation since that post has kinda changed the nature of the request, hmm?

And what's with the non-players in this damn game, anyway?

HUGE FoS's: ting =) and qwints

for excessive lurking.

slightly smaller but still pretty big FoS: springlullaby

for not-quite-so-excessive lurking.

[Goatrevolt]

I'll just say I laughed when I saw BB agreed with my case on him, but Zilla simulposted with a large disagreement .

Wait a minute, Goat's stance on Panzer is a bit suspicious as well.

Goat, would you please give a current account of your stance on Panzer?

I just gave that to you. Post 295.

BB's agreement with my case on him and willingness to admit that he lied and was scummy is interesting, to say the least. I can't say I've ever had someone outright say "hey, you're right, I lied and I didn't care." Despite my confusion, I think the best play is to still lynch him. Willingly admitting to being scummy doesn't change the fact that he was scummy. Furthermore, I don't know why he bothered trying to create reasons for his play if he was just going to later say "yeah, I lied" anyway.

[PJ.]

I don't know who is scummier at this point, BB or zilla.

[Dourgrim]

I don't know who is scummier at this point, BB or zilla.

Care to elaborate?

[PJ.]

Read my 28th, 31st, and 32nd posts.

[Dourgrim]

I've read the posts in question, thanks, and I'll take that as a no. I was trying to get you to

elaborate

(i.e. provide more detail) as to why you weren't sure which one was scummier.

Two full days

of conversation have elapsed since your analysis of the situation, and an experienced player like you doesn't have any kind of deeper read on the situation? Or is this more a matter of you being happy to fly below the radar of two other suspects? Here's why I say that: since the posts you referenced, you've made 7 posts total. The first was a one-liner "spin doctor" post, and I'm still not sure exactly what that was referencing. The next two were snide comments made at me because of your hurt feelings in another game we were in, and then came this:

I would be OK with a BB lynch, and I would be OK with a mykonian lynch. I still like the Panzer lynch best though, based on other things like his active lurking (i.e. parroting), the "townie" slip, and the use of "truly" and "honest."

So let me get this straight, my "active lurking" aka parroting aka something you said I do when I'm town and 2 semantics issues?

Gieff, I'm starting to get a very scummy vibe from you and you are definently tunneling me if you think I'd be a better lunch the BB or Zilla.

So you're trying to summarize GIEFF's post, and then you say you're "starting to get a scummy vibe from" him. Interesting, considering this:

@Gieff: I truly believe that you are singling me and trying to eventual force claim for inadquate and petty reasons. A supposed "lie" the intentions of my random vote, and me calling dejkha "confirmed town". Both of these honestly go into semantics. First of all, I used the word townie instead of spelling a specific players name. Oh Please, this isn't a slip. Also, you believe I truly wanted to lynch Myko, when clearly in my exchange with him i told him slips were minor tells and simply told him I'd just be keeping my eye on him.

Regardless of the debacle afterward, you're blowing an IGMEOY out of purportion in a way that is leading me to believe you are rolefishing scum.

FoS:Gieff

Hmm... make up your mind. Since then you've posted this (and I'm combining it all into one quote box to save space, this is actually three posts):

Yes GIEFF because I don't see how Mykonian is scummy. Also I don't understand why you do.

I don't know who is scummier at this point, BB or zilla.

Read my 28th, 31st, and 32nd posts.

And you wonder why you're being accused of parroting and active lurking. It sounds like you're just really not sure about much of anything in this game... maybe asking you to elaborate was a bad idea on my part. Sorry.

At this point I still think BB's case is the strongest out there, and I'm flat-out disgusted with all the lurking going on in this game (and no, Panzer, that comment isn't really directed at you, at least you acknowledge the game's existence by posting

something

), but I think Panzer is easily the second-best choice for a lynch today based on the above, even trumping my suspicions of GIEFF.

[Dourgrim]

EBWOP: the bolding in the first two quotes above is mine for emphasis. Sorry, should've made that clear in the post itself.

[militant]

I am going to re read and carefully consider all arguments put forward (I appreciate your efforts to get simplified versions Dour) and choose where to place my vote. I have been said to be avoiding a firm stance on the game and it's main arguments and being an active lurker. I am activley trying to correct this perception to by adopting a stance. I shall be back tommorow...

[PJ.]

Aye, I'm definently getting scummy vibes from GIEFF, but I think Zilla and Beyond Birthday are equally scummy. I've been thinking this pretty much since Zilla joined the game and I'd be fine with lynching either of them. I'm not trying to fly under the radar as I've been pretty vocal about either of them.

Right now, I'm leaning toward Zilla because I can't trust anything she says(as I have previously stated) So I'm going to stay on her for now. I'm not opposed to a lynch of Beyond Birthday either.

[PJ.]

@GIEFF
I actually don't keep track of my games but if You'd like I will go back and find some for you.

[Dourgrim]

I am going to re read and carefully consider all arguments put forward (I appreciate your efforts to get simplified versions Dour) and choose where to place my vote.

For the record, I wasn't necessarily trying to "simplify" people's cases. I was trying to force the people who were voting to reassure me that they believe in the strength of the cases enough to be able to explain them without a wall of text. The way I figure it, if you can't explain in one or two sentences why you're voting for someone, you don't have enough conviction behind the vote to be able to sustain it. Simplification is a helpful side effect.

I have been said to be avoiding a firm stance on the game and it's main arguments and being an active lurker. I am activley trying to correct this perception to by adopting a stance. I shall be back tommorow...

Thanks for that, but why is it going to take you another entire day to do so? Why not just post your initial thoughts in this post and then do a readthrough to refine your stance later? Meh, I'm not sold on this until I see it actually happen.

@Panzer: so now you think Zilla, BB

and

GIEFF are equally scummy?! Or are those separate thoughts that were accidentally combined into one sentence? Also, I'm not exactly clear why you believe nothing Zilla says can be trusted. Can you please give me specific examples as to why this is the case?

Furthermore, do you understand my points in the above post on why you're being called out for parroting and active lurking? Do you have any defense besides "no I'm not" to that accusation? I'm trying desperately to coax some in-depth discussion out of you without goading you into an emotional outburst here, so please, rather than just say "like I said before" when justifying your stance on the current discussion, try to summarize clearly the exact points that led you to cast your vote.

I wish I had four votes to throw around, I'd vote all the lurkers -and- BB -and- Panzer.

MOD: where the heck are qwints

(no posts since Monday's "Hi, I'll read and post" one and only post)

and ting =)

(no posts since Sunday)

?

I got prodded on a

Sunday

for 48 hours inactivity, for crying out loud...

[qwints]

Sorry, I wasn't completely ready for the pace of this game. I have a lot more time to post on Fridays and weekends than during the week. I'll have something by Friday.

[PJ.]

I lumped that together on accident.

List right now is
Zilla
BB
then distant third is GIEFF.

On zilla,

Goat's too aggressively defensive, and there have been a few people that might be buddies with him that are riding me for throwing my hat into the ring by voting him, trying to pressure me to take my vote off him because my reasons are bad, when I really see their votes as pretty laughable as well. (seriously, that "townie" slip thing is nothing,

the SK argument seems rediculous, and a lot of the quote wars are picking at the stupidest things

).

H

Here she said it was ridiculous and part of the studiest things bickered about.

The SK thing was stupid, the first person who said "SK" might be the SK if there even is an SK, but beyond that, that whole argument has gotten way out of hand.

Here she says that how much it was focused on was completely out of hand and that it was a minor point but other then that it shouldn't be focused on for essentially, there may not be an SK.

For now, Vote: Mykonian

For being the first person to even say Serial Killer (either he's mafia looking to create a scapegoat, or an SK trying to get the drop on anyone beforehand, I don't really see town introducing a serial killer, even as a jest, in RVS), for parroting goatrevolt's response to my opening, for general goading but non-commital behavior, and, mostly, because he asked me to.

And here she uses as a reason to vote it, and bringing up the reason that she thought was ridiculous and out of hand that had been essentially dropped. This completely goes back on what she was saying and used it as a reason to vote someone who was suspicious of her because she saw that her accusations of Goat, were not going anywhere. I don't see town doing this because it is not only dishonest but she has twice voted people who disagreed with her. Basically OMGUS. Town shouldn't OMGUS because disagreement is okay, because it means people are trying to hunt scum, and deliberately voting and trying to eradicate those who disagree and think you are scummy, is scummy.

whoof. Long post take effort.

Mod:Can we get a prod of SL and others please

[PJ.]

EBWOP: SL is around, no prod, and I apoligize SL.

[mykonian]

unvote

I still have the feeling something is wrong, but the way GIEFF puts it, I can believe that.

sorry for this short post.

[Dourgrim]

For now, Vote: Mykonian

For being the first person to even say Serial Killer (either he's mafia looking to create a scapegoat, or an SK trying to get the drop on anyone beforehand, I don't really see town introducing a serial killer, even as a jest, in RVS), for parroting goatrevolt's response to my opening, for general goading but non-commital behavior, and, mostly, because he asked me to.

And here she uses as a reason to vote it, and bringing up the reason that she thought was ridiculous and out of hand that had been essentially dropped. This completely goes back on what she was saying and used it as a reason to vote someone who was suspicious of her because she saw that her accusations of Goat, were not going anywhere. I don't see town doing this because it is not only dishonest but she has twice voted people who disagreed with her. Basically OMGUS. Town shouldn't OMGUS because disagreement is okay, because it means people are trying to hunt scum, and deliberately voting and trying to eradicate those who disagree and think you are scummy, is scummy.

I saw the post you're talking about, but in my mind this post is Zilla justifying the vote on mykonian because he

began

the whole "stupid" SK discussion in the first place, not because she bought in to the discussion or placed any weight on it. She seems to be questioning his motives for beginning the discussion, not the discussion itself.

whoof. Long post take effort.

Thank you, that was much more informative. However, you seem to again have missed my question:

Furthermore, do you understand my points in the above post on why you're being called out for parroting and active lurking? Do you have any defense besides "no I'm not" to that accusation?

[kloud1516]

Prods and Vote Count coming up shortly.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I have nothing to add at the moment exceot to respond to Dour's question:
I do realize I am agreeing with Goat's assesment of my play (though he assumed the slightly better reasons of his two assesments on my thoughts, but he gave me a bit more credit than I deserved). Not only is there no point in me defending my scummy play but there really isn't an upside to defending it either. Any explanation aside from claiming that it was some insanity gambit (it kind of worked out that way, but wasn't intended) would probably be more likely to be created by scum than by town. All town arguments would be very stupid, and I'm not stupidly going to claim that the play I made while not paying attention to this game makes any damn sense. It doesn't thus looks scummy, and I am forced to agree with this.

However, I know I am not scum, and Zilla's arguments reach a certain level of stupidity or confident assumption. Either Zilla is a complete moron townie or a scum who knows I am town aligned. Given the possibilities, I think that Zilla was blinded by the fact that she *knows* I'm town and couldn't pull this out very well in her skim read of the thread. As a result, she sees that I am possibly going to be lynched (semi justified by Goat's arguments) and she gets townie brownies while also (this assumes Goat is town) getting to push for a Goat lynch for having what she percevied previously as a stupid case. As a result, I think Zilla is mafia.
Oh, and speaking of eloquence...

*takes militint's arm, and slices open the wrist.*

Heheh... it flows as a warm trickle down your skin before gathering together to slide and fall as a droplet of blood to the ground. *licks the wound* And so sweet...

[PJ.]

@Dour, Yes I understand, I don't agree, but It's a difference of opinion. I believe I've been actively contributing to this game. I have raised some valid and even original at the time points as of late. I don't find anything wrong with my one liners.

[kloud1516]

Vote Count VI

Beyond_Birthday

(3): Goatrevolt, GIEFF, Dourgrim

Zilla

(2): Panzerjager, Beyond_Birthday

Panzerjager

(1): ting=)

GIEFF

(1): mykonian

mykonian

(1): Zilla

Not Voting:

qwints, springlullaby, militant

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Please notify me if there is a discrepancy in the list above

[Dourgrim]

I have nothing to add at the moment exceot to respond to Dour's question:
I do realize I am agreeing with Goat's assesment of my play (though he assumed the slightly better reasons of his two assesments on my thoughts, but he gave me a bit more credit than I deserved). Not only is there no point in me defending my scummy play but there really isn't an upside to defending it either. Any explanation aside from claiming that it was some insanity gambit (it kind of worked out that way, but wasn't intended) would probably be more likely to be created by scum than by town. All town arguments would be very stupid, and I'm not stupidly going to claim that the play I made while not paying attention to this game makes any damn sense. It doesn't thus looks scummy, and I am forced to agree with this.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but this looks like it essentially boils down to: "I know I look scummy, I'm sorry I've been playing scummy, but no good scum player would look this scummy, so I can't possibly be scum." WIFOM if ever I've heard of it. It's a bit stunning to hear you admit it, but there it is. Hmm...

However, I know I am not scum, and Zilla's arguments reach a certain level of stupidity or confident assumption. Either Zilla is a complete moron townie or a scum who knows I am town aligned. Given the possibilities, I think that Zilla was blinded by the fact that she *knows* I'm town and couldn't pull this out very well in her skim read of the thread. As a result, she sees that I am possibly going to be lynched (semi justified by Goat's arguments) and she gets townie brownies while also (this assumes Goat is town) getting to push for a Goat lynch for having what she percevied previously as a stupid case. As a result, I think Zilla is mafia.

Please explain why her arguments are either stupid or overconfident. Of

course

you're going to say you're not scum, and therefore your accuser must be, but you can't say that's evidence with a straight face and expect to be taken seriously. I'm not being sarcastic at all here: please explain this to me.

Oh, and speaking of eloquence...

*takes militint's arm, and slices open the wrist.*

Heheh... it flows as a warm trickle down your skin before gathering together to slide and fall as a droplet of blood to the ground. *licks the wound* And so sweet...

Um, yeah, that's creepy... eloquent, sure, but creepy.

@Dour, Yes I understand, I don't agree, but It's a difference of opinion. I believe I've been actively contributing to this game. I have raised some valid and even original at the time points as of late. I don't find anything wrong with my one liners.

I would agree that you

were

contributing original content to the game, but over the last four days I don't think you have, and I believe that you're doing so in order to avoid unnecessary attention to the cases made against you in the past. That's my point in a nutshell.

Thanks for prodding, Mod. I hate lurkers.

[Zilla]

Panzer didn't read this post.

WOW WAIT A SECOND.

Didn't you just that being the first person to say SK was completely ridiculous and minute and not a big deal. holy christ, again I'm gonna have to

Unvote. Vote:Zilla

I now see her as willing to say/do anything in order for people to see her as pro-town.

I see where you got that out of:

(seriously, that "townie" slip thing is nothing, the SK argument seems rediculous, and a lot of the quote wars are picking at the stupidest things).

I'm talking about the

argument

over the SK thing, specifically the parts where people say the SK knows who the mafia are, whether or not the SK is more desirable for a lynch, etc. The debate over it got very pointless, very fast.

I also said this:

The SK thing was stupid, the first person who said "SK" might be the SK if there even is an SK, but beyond that, that whole argument has gotten way out of hand.

Mykonian does not answer my [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 72#1487372]large post detailing my case against him.[/quote]

I'm going to clarify that it IS a serious vote. When someone asks you to vote them, I can't see any town motivation behind it. Scum, on the other hand, may want to ask for people to vote them to try to control that person's vote, maybe even as a defense tactic to disperse votes, or a bluffing WIFOM. You're trying to show that you're perfectly fine with a vote on you, so we should have less reason to vote you, and I don't see why town would do that.

My other points are still unrefuted, and I don't see how you could refute them either. You were the first to mention an SK, and I've already said that's pretty cut-and-dry a possible scum move since we don't know for sure if there actually is one. As mafia, it creates a scapegoat. As the SK, it's trying to create a WIFOM where the SK shouldn't be the first to mention it, so someone else ought to be the SK.

We still don't even know if there is an SK, but there's no reason for a townie to introduce that possibility, even as a joke. It changes the paradigm of the game in a way that is only helpful to town if there IS an SK, and the only way you would know that is if you WERE the SK.

But most of this has already been gone over before, and it was debated (at length) over whether your post was serious or not. My point is that it doesn't matter if it was serious or a joke, it's harmful to town either way.

On general character during the game, you've basically been defensive of the person who was initially attacking you, to the point that it doesn't even really make sense. I really think that town is susceptible to OMGUS, and for good reason; if someone suspects you, and you're town, you're going to wonder if they're scum trying to frame you for a mislynch. Now, tunneling on someone who votes you is scummy as well, because any sensible townie would understand that they could be being framed on faulty-but-town logic.

In general, you've been dancing at the edge of the spotlight and constantly trying to push attention onto anyone else (GIEFF, Panzer, myself). You've also tried to discredit my case numerous times without actually addressing my points.

My vote stands, and I'm serious about it.

Goat completely missed the point of my probe:

Wait a minute, Goat's stance on Panzer is a bit suspicious as well.

Goat, would you please give a

current account

of your stance on Panzer?

If I am to believe your stance is the same as it was in post 240,

FOS: Goatrevolt

. You're critical of nobody defending panzer, so

you're defending panzer

, all the while trying to admit that he looks scummy. It's tough to specualte without knowing Panzer's alignment, but it looks like a convienient and soft defense overall, in case he actually does flip scum. The very cautionary stance adopted here is highly suspect.

Myk needs to answer, militant, SL, ting=), and qwints need to participate.

[mykonian]

zilla, I'm going to do that tomorrow: I'm very tired now, I can barely keep my eyes open. I won't forget.

[Dourgrim]

Myk needs to answer, militant, SL, ting=), and qwints need to participate.

QFT

[Goatrevolt]

If I am to believe your stance is the same as it was in post 240,

FOS: Goatrevolt

. You're critical of nobody defending panzer, so

you're defending panzer

I'm sorry, but that's a load of shit. You're trying to argue some illogical "defense by association" type argument, based on the fact that I'm not attacking the people who are defending Panzer (essentially Mykonian), thus I'm also "defending Panzer????". Dourgrim is also not attacking Mykonian but thinks Panzer is scummy. I haven't seen you address this at all. Why not?

Me thinking A has been scummy, doesn't mean I also think B who is defending A is scummy. I'm completely shocked that you are even attempting to argue that. I don't think Mykonian is scum, and I'm not attacking him. How does that mean I'm defending Panzer? Please elaborate further.