Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over

[Dourgrim]

I think GIEFF's right: that is a gross misrepresentation of his vote. His vote for qwints is based on logic and voting patterns, not a simple disagreement. As such, I think his case has merit, although it's certainly not the strongest case presented today.

GIEFF, regarding my Panzer/myko case from forever ago: I think the defenses of each other were odd, but myko didn't lie and Panzer did, or at the very least changed his mind. I still feel like they both were stating their cases similarly and were therefore linked, but I'd have to attribute most of that feeling to pure hunch at this point. I can't really come up with anything more substantial than that at this point, which sounds weak even to me, but there it is.

Goat's case on Zilla is pretty damn good IMHO, but I don't think we should discount BB (or even Panzer) entirely just yet. I'm going to try and make time to reread again today before voting, but just to be sure...

unvote

[GIEFF]

Thanks, Dourgrim. If you have time, could you also respond to my post 478, especially the part about my post 224 and the 1-4 numbering?

[Dourgrim]

GIEFF: I wasn't intentionally ignoring anything in post 224. I just lost track of the debate amidst all of the other conversations, and then when you forced me to go back and read it again, it struck me at that moment as condescending. For some reason your style of debate has that effect on me quite often, I'm noticing.

Regarding the four numbered points: #1 is correct. #2 is completely incorrect, and here's why:

OK, I just noticed something that changes my viewpoint here: both Zilla and Goat are nuking the hell out of each other in the thread, and yet neither one is voting for the other. Zilla's voting for myko, and Goat's voting for BB. At least Goat has said that he thinks BB is the correct lynch for today and is voting accordingly; what gives, Zilla?

And, to live by my own standards...

unvote: BB

vote: Panzer

I have never once said that lynching BB is a bad idea. I said that I believed we had better targets for lynching because of the WIFOM, and as the above quote points out, I said that I thought players should vote for their #1 suspect (for me, Panzer at the time), but I did

not

say that lynching BB was a bad idea, WIFOM notwithstanding.

Back to your numbers: #3 is correct, but #4 is not because it's based on #2 being correct (which it isn't). Does that make more sense to you?

[GIEFF]

It does make more sense, but if you change the words "a B_B lynch is a bad idea" to "a B_B lynch is less viable, to the extent that I will unvote" then I think my point is valid.

My general point is just that the WIFOM you used to justify your unvote of B_B was injected BY B_B HIMSELF, and should therefore not be taken into consideration, at least not to the extent that you did.


I also still don't agree that this WIFOM makes B_B's lynch any less viable. So what if he's linked to Zilla? I thought that links were good things? If B_B and Zilla are both town, and we blindly lynch one after the other flips town, then of course that is horrible play. Why didn't you make a similar point about the myko and Panzer? Is there a reason to fear Zilla and B_B both being town MORE than you fear myko and Panzer both being town?

[Dourgrim]

It does make more sense, but if you change the words "a B_B lynch is a bad idea" to "a B_B lynch is less viable, to the extent that I will unvote" then I think my point is valid.

My general point is just that the WIFOM you used to justify your unvote of B_B was injected BY B_B HIMSELF, and should therefore not be taken into consideration, at least not to the extent that you did.

But neither portion of that is accurate. I didn't say lynching BB was a bad idea... I just said that I believed lynching Panzer was a better idea. You're mixing two separate ideas here. I didn't use the WIFOM to justify the unvote, I simply moved my vote from BB to Panzer because I stated in the above quote that I thought players should be voting for their #1 suspect, and I believed Panzer to be more scummy than BB because of the lie, etc.

I also still don't agree that this WIFOM makes B_B's lynch any less viable. So what if he's linked to Zilla? I thought that links were good things? If B_B and Zilla are both town, and we blindly lynch one after the other flips town, then of course that is horrible play. Why didn't you make a similar point about the myko and Panzer? Is there a reason to fear Zilla and B_B both being town MORE than you fear myko and Panzer both being town?

I have said numerous times in the thread that I believe BB to be my #2 suspect (although recent developments hint strongly at Zilla), and so I'm not and never have said that I thought BB wasn't a viable choice for lynch because of WIFOM. Since Goat's case against Zilla, however, I've revised my opinion of Zilla's Townie-ness and am not all that worried about both her and BB coming up Town anymore.

And I didn't make a similar point re: myko/Panzer because I had gut suspicions of both of them at the time and believed that the link would be telling if/when we lynched Panzer (who I still believe is a viable lynch choice). Since then I've revised my opinion of myko somewhat, believing that there is a language barrier that may have caused players (including myself) to interpret some of his posts differently than his intentions may have warranted. The link between him and Panzer is still there, though...

[kloud1516]

Vote Count IX

Zilla

(4): Beyond_Birthday, Goatrevolt, militant, Panzerjager

Beyond_Birthday

(2): qwints, Zilla

Panzerjager

(2): ting=), subgenius

GIEFF

(1): mykonian

qwints

(1): GIEFF

Not Voting:

springlullaby, Dourgrim

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Please notify me if there is a discrepancy in the list above

[Zilla]

Shortish-between-class post: On GIEFF's qwints case: again a lot of interpretation, and surprising that you're switching off of me for it. Some points are quite valid.

Actually, I just now remembered he was the replacement for MacavityLock. I'll have to reread both of them when I have more time.

I actually think putting pressure on him may be a good idea, though he strikes me more as an uninvested player more than anything, a perfect scapegoat for ambitious scum. The problem is that he hasn't contributed much to judge it on. People make mistakes, but it's all about the intent and cause of those mistakes, and, again, I haven't heard enough from him to see whether his intent is pro- or anti-town.

[GIEFF]

Some points are quite valid.

Which ones in particular?

I actually think putting pressure on him

may

be a good idea,

though

he strikes me more as an uninvested player more than anything, a perfect scapegoat for ambitious scum. The problem is that he hasn't contributed much to judge it on. People make mistakes,

but

it's all about the intent and cause of those mistakes, and, again, I haven't heard enough from him to see whether his intent is pro- or anti-town.

The wishy-washiness is dripping off of this post. Please re-read all of qwints' and macavity's posts (shouldn't take more than 2 minutes), re-read my case, and commit to how you feel. If some points I raised are valid, then doesn't that mean he is more scummy than neutral in your eyes?


-------------------------

qwints, I'll need to see more of a response than "GIEFF is attacking me for disagreeing." It makes no sense at all to think that, of two wagons that were driven by the same two people, one is valid enough to deserve your vote and one is "driven by scum."

-------

You're mixing two separate ideas here. I didn't use the WIFOM to justify the unvote, I simply moved my vote from BB to Panzer because I stated in the above quote that I thought players should be voting for their #1 suspect, and I believed Panzer to be more scummy than BB because of the lie, etc.

Dourgrim: I assumed that your first two paragraphs laid out the reasoning for the conclusions you made in your third and fourth paragraphs in this post. Is this assumption wrong?

I also assumed that a large part of the reason you unvoted B_B was the logic you put out in that post. That post was the first time you brought up any problems with a possible B_B lynch, and the first time since you voted B_B that you said you think Panzer would be a better lynch.

Again, were the first two paragraphs unrelated to the conclusions you made in the 3rd (B_B lynch has problems with it) and 4th (Panzer lynch is best)?

[qwints]

Beyond Birthday's refusing to defend his early scummy behavior was scummy. That's the difference.

[GIEFF]

The same players are driving the Zilla wagon that were driving the B_B wagon; where was this "scum-driven wagon" excuse then?

Still waiting, qwints.

Still waiting, qwints.

[qwints]

Beyond Birthday launched the attack on Zilla. BB = scum.

I think that you and goat revolt found what you were looking for when you followed the scum driven wagon.

[GIEFF]

Although B_B was the first to vote Zilla, he did not "launch the attack", although I guess I can believe that is what you meant. Why didn't you just say this the first time I asked it, instead of making me ask it three times?

What were Goat and I looking for when we followed the "scum-driven" wagon?

[Dourgrim]

Dourgrim: I assumed that your first two paragraphs laid out the reasoning for the conclusions you made in your third and fourth paragraphs in this post. Is this assumption wrong?

No, this is correct.

I also assumed that a large part of the reason you unvoted B_B was the logic you put out in that post. That post was the first time you brought up any problems with a possible B_B lynch, and the first time since you voted B_B that you said you think Panzer would be a better lynch.

This is incorrect. The sole reason I unvoted BB is because I believed Panzer to be a better choice for lynch at the time. I did not at any point (in that post or any other that I've been able to find so far) say that I believed BB to be a poor choice of lynch. I did not so much

un

vote BB as I did

re

vote Panzer due to my conviction at the time that Panzer was the

best

lynch choice,

not

the

only

valid lynch choice. Do you understand the difference I'm trying to draw here?

Again, were the first two paragraphs unrelated to the conclusions you made in the 3rd

(B_B lynch has problems with it)

and 4th (Panzer lynch is best)?

The underlined point is incorrect. I simply chose to move away from the Zilla/BB debate to pursue what I believed to be a

stronger

lynch choice, Panzer. A BB lynch doesn't necessarily "have problems with it," but that doesn't necessarily make it the ideal lynch choice either, does it? If there is another stronger case that I believe could provide more useful information for future Days, isn't that a better play to make regardless of the validity of the first case? If not, please explain.

Also, can you please help me understand the relevance of all of this? Do you genuinely believe that I am scum? This entire conversation feels like you're nitpicking, and I feel like I'm explaining myself over and over again saying the same thing. It's frustrating, especially since it doesn't seem like I'm able to adequately communicate what I'm trying to say to your satisfaction.

[GIEFF]

I don't feel like I'm nitpicking. You voted B_B, and at the time I believed it was because you thought he was the scummiest player. You presented reasons in the Zilla-WIFOM post that seemed to convince you the B_B lynch was no longer the best one. Whatever you want to call it. And then you later voted for Panzer.

It just looks to me like you had decided to unvote B_B due to logic that seemed so odd I didn't think it was genuine. Has Panzer always been your top choice for a lynch, even after you voted B_B? If not, at what point did he pass up B_B?

[Goatrevolt]

Goat's case on Zilla is pretty damn good IMHO, but I don't think we should discount BB (or even Panzer) entirely just yet. I'm going to try and make time to reread again today before voting, but just to be sure...

I think Panzer has a decent shot of being a scumbuddy to Zilla, based on my read of her playstyle.

I don't think he's a better lynch, though.

[Dourgrim]

I think Panzer has a decent shot of being a scumbuddy to Zilla, based on my read of her playstyle.

I don't think he's a better lynch, though.

At this point I can agree with that.

vote: Zilla

This puts her at L-2, just so you're all aware.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Grr... I can't really comment on the Gieff/Dour discussion, so I will just acknowledge it exists.

I am going to assume the statements of the following quote are true to make a point.

First statement:

Beyond Birthday launched the attack on Zilla.

Second statement:

BB = scum.

Conclusion:

I think that you and goat revolt found what you were looking for when you followed the scum driven wagon.

You fail to define what Gieff and goat revolt were looking for. This is not derived or assumed in the "given" two statements. This lacks reasoning and/or logical follow through. The "scum driven wagon" is also false since it insinuates that if BB is scum than the wagon is not on or against scum.

You have not addressed the points made in my call to lynch post against Zilla nor proven how they are false. You cannot assume a person is scum in order to conclude that their points are invalid. (Why? With both the "points against a player" and the "accusers alignment" unrelated, either the former, the latter, or both can be true.)

Your post fails to really answer this. Your other post also fail to acknowledge the point raised against Zilla or to bring up a reason why BB>Zilla in terms of scumminess.

Side note: Do you think if Zilla is scum if I am town?

[GIEFF]

I think this is getting dangerously close to talking too-much and overthinking this first lynch.

It is just a coincidence that you said this soon after my post about qwints, or was it related?

[PJ.]

Totally unrelated. Pretty much a thought as i was reading Walls-o-text. Has nothing to do with you Quints vote.

Also, There is NOOOO WAAAAAAYY i'm zilla's buddy. I was the second person to vote her and launched part of the attack. It makes no sense.

[Dourgrim]

Just realized that I failed to answer GIEFF's latest questions, and I certainly don't want to get accused of evading.

I don't feel like I'm nitpicking. You voted B_B, and at the time I believed it was because you thought he was the scummiest player. You presented reasons in the Zilla-WIFOM post that seemed to convince you the B_B lynch was no longer the best one. Whatever you want to call it. And then you later voted for Panzer.

I voted for BB because I thought he was a scummy player, I thought he would be a valid choice for a lynch, and I wanted to help apply pressure to him to gauge his reactions. Panzer and you had been my other two choices up until the BB case was made, and the case against Panzer has been consistently stronger throughout.

And the "whatever you want to call it" line in the above quote bothers me. It reads like you're trying to invalidate the differences in what I'm saying and what you

thought

I was saying by reducing them to a difference in semantics, which is not at all the case. You were repeatedly stating that I had a problem with lynching BB, which is untrue (and has been untrue for quite a long time). I think this is why I've felt off and on that you've been misrepresenting me in the thread. These are

not

simply semantic issues; they're differences in intent and meaning that either I wasn't clearly communicating or you weren't correctly interpreting.

It just looks to me like you had decided to unvote B_B due to logic that seemed so odd I didn't think it was genuine. Has Panzer always been your top choice for a lynch, even after you voted B_B? If not, at what point did he pass up B_B?

As far as the timing of exactly when one suspect outpaces another in scumminess, I'd be a liar if I told you it happened at X time. My opinions change over time in mafia games, and I don't have any sort of "+x" or "x%" system in place that empirically measures a player's scumminess... and even if I had such a system available to me, I probably wouldn't use it because it would strip the fun out of playing the game for me. I read, I analyze, I react, I read some more... rinse and repeat. I'm going to assume by the nature of your questions here that you do not play the game similarly.

Now, would you kindly do me the same courtesy by answering my above questions?

Also, can you please help me understand the relevance of all of this? Do you genuinely believe that I am scum?

It seems to me that the answers to these questions should determine how much more of the Town's time we spend on this issue. If you believe any of this points to me being scum, then feel free to explain why. So far, it looks like you're just saying that you believe my logic to be "so odd" you "didn't think it was geniune." Could this potentially be a difference in play styles, or do you truly believe I'm scum because of my "odd logic?" If you don't truly believe I'm scum, I think we're just creating thread noise that isn't going to help the Town.

[GIEFF]

"Whatever you want to call it" because anything you want to call it is fine with me; I don't mean to misrepresent. Call it something, and I'll agree. You list reasons against a B_B lynch, and that's all that's really relevant for the point I'm trying to make.

I do play the game similarly. There is no +x%, -x%, no formula. But I usually know who my top target is. You said Panzer has been your top target the whole time, though right? And that answered my question.

Yes, I believe you may be scum, but you're not going to be the lynch today, so we can drop it and focus on Zilla/B_B.

[Dourgrim]

"Whatever you want to call it" because anything you want to call it is fine with me; I don't mean to misrepresent. Call it something, and I'll agree. You list reasons against a B_B lynch, and that's all that's really relevant for the point I'm trying to make.

But this statement is

also

misrepresentative of what I said because I was

not

at any point reasoning

against

a BB lynch! All I said was that I believed Panzer's case to be stronger, and I thought we would gain more information from a Panzer lynch than a BB lynch (which is a point we haven't resurrected in quite a while). Why is the difference between those two sentences so obvious to me and yet seemingly so hard for me to clearly communicate to you (or for you to understand)?

I do play the game similarly. There is no +x%, -x%, no formula. But I usually know who my top target is. You said Panzer has been your top target the whole time, though right? And that answered my question.

I did not say

this

either. I said that, between Panzer and BB, my choice for lynch would be Panzer. Let's not forget that you were a top suspect of mine for quite awhile earlier in the Day due to what I felt was intentional misrepresentation and spin-doctoring. I feel like that's what's happening again here. I tell you in what I believe to be plain English what the intended meaning of my posts was, and you try to paraphrase it down into something else.

Yes, I believe you may be scum, but you're not going to be the lynch today, so we can drop it and focus on Zilla/B_B.

You failed to answer the first of my two repeated questions above. What is the relevance of all of this, aside from you attempting to paraphrase my posts?

[Goatrevolt]

GIEFF:

Why go at Dourgrim again? Do you think he's a valid lynch option for today?

Now that qwints has responded, could you answer my question?

[militant]

You have been excessively lurky, your predecessor dropped off the map after being accused of being scummy, and now you are defending a Zilla wagon for reasons that would have applied equally well to the B_B wagon, onto which you QUICKLY hopped without writing a single word about him prior to that point.

Hello, scum. Meet my vote.

unvote

vote qwints

Zilla, I would very much like to hear what you think about my above post.

You are sure that Zilla is scum so why do you unvote her and vote someone else who you are also sure is scum but is much less likely to be lynched?

I'm a believer that a day can be TOO long. It can steer away from the scum and can confuse the town and convolute good conversation and lead to a mislynch.

I agree with this also.

I think Panzer has a decent shot of being a scumbuddy to Zilla, based on my read of her playstyle.

I don't think he's a better lynch, though.

At this point I can agree with that.

vote: Zilla

This puts her at L-2, just so you're all aware.

Perhaps that is Zilla's cue to claim. How about it?

[mykonian]

hey, Militant! welcome back!

good post though, I agree with your question on GIEFF, again a: "I don't agree with you and here you are scummy"-vote.

I would like a zilla-claim too. Otherwise we are just lynching a towny because the game dies before we can change. Now we have reasonable activity to change if we want to. If we wait a few days, all we can do is lynch her no matter how or what she claims, just because nobody wants to prolong the day more.