Newbie 694 (over)

[hambargarz]

I am town.
...
I am scum.
...
Where was this "doesn't make sense" reason earlier in the day when the GIEFF/CR pairing was your first choice?

I am scum, but you're leaning back toward town for a reason that has applied ALL DAY.

People change their minds as they think about things. I'm simply posting my thoughts as they go along. As you can see they do kind of switch back and forth. Each time I explained why I was leaning a certain way. Like I've said, there are logical reasons why you are town but there are kind of gut instincts I have that tell me your scum.

What I'm wondering though ham, is why does your logic say to treat GIEFF as town? Just cause everyone else seems to, or from the way he plays? If it's from the way he plays, wouldn't your gut tell you that he's town too?

My gut tells me from the way GIEFF reacts to my posts against him that he is scum. My gut tells me from the way he words things he's scum. My gut tells me that his hesitation to vote CR is scum. Logically one can come up with excuses such for these, for example, over-defensiveness is not a scum-tell, The hesitation to vote CR was from the high risk lylo situation etc.. Logically GIEFF's was viewed as protown from alot of other players including confirmed townies, but my gut tells me it's scum play. etc etc.

Not to mention your numerous attempts to distort the past to implicate me (and your refusal to back down after you were proven incorrect)

I admitted to missing a post. I said this twice in posts, Hypocritically, it seems you have missed these also. How is that "refusal to back down"?

, or your odd behavior about the FL doc-claim, as if you were trying to hint at him to do so.

It's funny you support this argument from CC when he was actually the first one to mention it. I admit the possibility of FL didn't even enter my head until CC mentioned it.

Actually, I just realized that fuzzylightning has not posted yet, so it's possible that Amished is lying about doc claim. What I saw as lack of counterclaim in my quick read could just be fuzzylightning-doc's absence.

If fuzzylightning does claim doc... well, we see what happens then

These were the first mentionings of it. I think the argument for coaching is much more relevant to CarnCarn. It's wierd how you have singled me out. I was just agreeing that FL could be a doc (and I wasn't the only one). If you ARE town GIEFF, I would like to hear your comments on this.

I also noticed you ONLY Voted FL after I said we should lynch the roleblocker (i.e. YOU) first for an insta-win. The best possible time to bus your teammate is when you fear that you are about to lose the game if you are lynched instead, no?

I pretty much voted for him previous day (post 882). So no


------------

Something I'd like to mention is GIEFF waited a whole day after my vote on CR. Even he posted after amished. This is wierd because GIEFF usually posts multiple times a day. It is as if he was waiting for another players reaction to my vote.

Also note, despite GIEFF's posturing about voting CR, he never actually did with intent to lynch. GIEFF even attacked me for voting CR and then tried to persuade the town to lynch me instead, which was an obviously flawed plan from any townie's perspective. 50% chance (FL) was much better than a 20% chance (Me). I think GIEFF-scum slipped and briefly forgot how uninformed townies are.

---------------

CC if you're scum, we've surely lost as I am leaning towards GIEFF-scum and GIEFF seems to trust you implicitly.
If you're town trying to make a decision (because I guess it's up to you), I'll say this;

If I'm scum, why did advocate CR/FL's lynch not just today but yesterday (I could have just hammered townie-Xtoxm)?

If I'm scum why have I been attacking arguably the cleanest player in the game? (and not just today)

Conversely, Why would I go against the Xtoxm wagon? Surely the path of least resistance for scum would have been just to agree and lynch him?

GIEFF, the most pro-town of all of us, with the least amount of suspicion was kept alive until now.

[GIEFF]

My gut tells me that his hesitation to vote CR is scum.

That's rich, considering I was the one who first voted CR (on both day 2 AND day 3), I was the one who started the long attack on CR on day 2 that almost led to him getting lynched, and YOU were the one who said on day 2 "Treat my Xtoxm vote as a CR vote," washing yourself of all responsibility for a hammer. "I really want to vote my scumbuddy, but I'm going to put another player at L-1 so that I can wash my hands of it later on."

Also look at Post 950 and the next post by you. Which of us is hesitant, ham?

GIEFF, the most pro-town of all of us, with the least amount of suspicion was kept alive until now.

A scum-WIFOM strategy only works if somebody brings it up. Funny that you just tried to do so.

Let's debunk it though, shall we?

Night 1: penguin was killed. No idea why.
Night 2: The cop's confirmed innocent was killed. And it's a good thing you didn't try to kill me, as the doc was on me.
Night 3: The confirmed doc was killed.

It makes sense to eliminate the most pro-town, but not when there are better choices, as there were on nights 2 and 3. But you already knew that, as you were the one who MADE these choices.

Not to mention your numerous attempts to distort the past to implicate me (and your refusal to back down after you were proven incorrect)

I admitted to missing a post. I said this twice in posts, Hypocritically, it seems you have missed these also. How is that "refusal to back down"?

Here is you saying you think it is a me-FL scumpair (how insightful of you to foresee this engame situation!) You say this makes sense because I hardly attacked CR, and because the Amished-initiated wagon had confirmed townies on it (even though

I

initiated the wagon.)

I told you this was false in Post 912.

You said "oops" in Post 916.

And then in Post 917 and Post 918, you went straight back to the GIEFF/CR scumpair again. I'd call that not backing down.


I have been convinced you are scum ever since. I recommend you read from the above-linked posts on, CC. Especially my Post 927, after which ham didn't post for FIVE DAYS, when he said:

I believe we can go back and forth like this GIEFF which I believe can lead to tunneling on both our parts, I am really waiting on CC or CR/FL to say something to get things rolling.

Read: "Please back off." Just like you tried to do on day 2, when you said my attacks on you were anti-town.

Also note, despite GIEFF's posturing about voting CR, he never actually did with intent to lynch. GIEFF even attacked me for voting CR and then tried to persuade the town to lynch me instead, which was an obviously flawed plan from any townie's perspective. 50% chance (FL) was much better than a 20% chance (Me). I think GIEFF-scum slipped and briefly forgot how uninformed townies are.

I very much wanted to lynch FL. I only unvoted because CC asked me to. You yourself even said yesterday:

I'm not against an FL lynch, if everyone wants to lynch him, thats fine with me (it ensures that at least 1 townie is on board with it). But I'm hesitant because we are at lylo and you (GIEFF) are a suspect in my books

and want him lynched.

My call to lynch you instead was, and still is, correct. As I told CC yesterday:

If you are correct and Amished is the real doc, then you will just have to choose between me and ham tomorrow. If we lynch FL and he really is mafia, then you will KNOW Amished is the real doc, and the mafia would obviously kill Amished, leaving us in 3-way lylo.

So you can make the decision today or make it tomorrow, but the decision will have to be made. I think it is likely that ham is the roleblocker, so if you make the decision today, WE WIN, regardless of who the real doc is.

The decision has just been put off another day. We could have won yesterday, but I will settle for winning today. YOU knew who the real doc was, but I didn't, so I obviously would have preferred CC to make the ham-GIEFF decision yesterday, as that strategy would have won the game even if Amished were scum.

I am leaning towards GIEFF-scum

And why is that?

You have been attacking CC for the past two days. You've shown wishy-washy suspicion on me for no reasons whatsoever other than "gut" (read: because you know I am town). I showed your initial excuses for calling me scummy to be bogus, so instead of providing new ones, you just fell back on "gut."

You even trusted me enough to GIVE ME THE HAMMER on day 2. I think you assumed I would hammer Xtoxm, so you figured it was a safe choice. In fact, as soon as I instructed you to lynch your scumbuddy if the deadline was going to be reached, you prodded magicrabbit into hammering Xtoxm. "Oh no, he might not hammer Xtoxm - how do I get out of this?"


Your thoughts, CC?

[CarnCarn]

GIEFF, how did the killing and RBing go last night?

same question for you hambargarz.

[GIEFF]

It went fantastic. I killed Amished in his sleep and I feel fine. No qualms whatsoever. I am a complete sociopath.

I drugged your coffee too, so you couldn't investigate anybody. That's just the kind of guy I am. Ruthless.

[CarnCarn]

It went fantastic. I killed Amished in his sleep and I feel fine. No qualms whatsoever. I am a complete sociopath.

I drugged your coffee too,

so you couldn't investigate anybody. That's just the kind of guy I am. Ruthless.

Noted. I didn't have any coffee last night. Or in the last 10 years.

[hambargarz]

GIEFF, how did the killing and RBing go last night?

same question for you hambargarz.

I should ask you the same thing CC, without the RBing of course.

Will get back to GIEFF in a bit. Just posted to say I will be V/LA tomorrow but may get a chance to post on the weekend.

[GIEFF]

How are we supposed to believe you are the real cop if you don't drink coffee?

I notice ham didn't answer the question. I guess that means it didn't go so well, ham? I think you made the right choice; I don't know why you are ashamed of it.

[GIEFF]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 47#1504047

Why haven't you posted in this game for a few days even though you're posting in others?

[CarnCarn]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 47#1504047

Why haven't you posted in this game for a few days even though you're posting in others?

LOL - Well, I haven't had the time to post anything meaningful. Other game was in twilight and lots of discussion going on, so my posting was focused on that. Also, I replaced into 2 other long games and I've been spending spare time reading up on them.

There haven't been many posts in this game since I last posted (only 3 in fact). As you say, hambargarz avoided even answering the question I posed, and you gave a very tounge-in-cheek answer, to which I gave a semi-serious response. Apart from that, I haven't seen anything that needed my immediate attention.

My plan is to get my notes from yesterday together and read early interactions between each of you and ClockworkRuse (Day 1 and Day 2). Will post my comments when I get a chance to do this (hopefully tomorrow - only have small bits of spare time today).

And that's why I hate having to answer that question

[GIEFF]

I'm surprised you characterize those uber-long posts as "only" 3 posts. You don't have any thoughts on them, one way or the other?

[CarnCarn]

I'm surprised you characterize those uber-long posts as "only" 3 posts. You don't have any thoughts on them, one way or the other?

Those weren't the ones I was referring to (I said since I last posted). As for the long posts, I read them very quickly and I didn't find anything that I needed to address immediately (like I said I'm going to work on a readback, and I'm sure I'll comment on those when I get to them).

[GIEFF]

Here's how CR interacted with both of you on day 1.

-----------------


http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 72#1336272
CR coaches ham.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 81#1337281
ham says CR is "a bit" scummy. CR responded, and it is never mentioned again.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 24#1344924
Me saying CR voting for militant looks scummy.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 42#1345342
Agrees with CR, and gives me an FOS because I called CR scummy.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 47#1345547
I explain why I called CR scummy.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 78#1349278
I ask CR if he is still suspicious of ham, as he hadn't mentioned him since the unvote.

CR didn't answer in his next post, instead focusing on other parts of my question.


http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 27#1349527
You say that NORMALLY you would vote CR, but you won't because it looks like it is meant for instruction, even though it eventually caused the mislynch of a townie. Why didn't you bring this up again, CC?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 22#1349622
ham is uber-defensive, and again throws suspicion on me for questioning the militant case.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 39#1349639
I IGMEOY CR for thinking his reasoning for voting militant is faulty.


http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 61#1349861
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 92#1350892
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 39#1355039
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 40#1362740
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 17#1363117

I repeatedly ask CR to tell me how he thinks about ham, as he hardly mentioned him at all after voting him.

[hambargarz]

I notice ham didn't answer the question.

What question are you referring to?
I went through you're post and could only find one question directed at me. ie. Why am I leaning to you

I've already stated my reasons for suspecting you. To answer your question about why I'm leaning towards you over CC, is I honestly don't know. Both of you have reasons for me to suspect you but for some reason I'm leaning on GIEFF-scum at the moment.

As you say, hambargarz avoided even answering the question I posed

I thought your question was rhetorical. A non-serious question like that deserves a non-serious response. If you are trying to make something out of this, I can say the same thing about how you avoided answering the question when I returned it.

I am awaiting CC's "comments". For now, in the meantime, it seems CC is content to sit back and unless attacked directly, let other players post with him in the background. I've already posted about this and thought I would bring it up again as recent posts reminded me of it.

Here's how CR interacted with both of you on day 1
...

I see you have added your own interactions with him as well. More notably interactions where you have shown suspicion of CR. You haven't said it directly but If you are implying that these somehow lift you from suspicion it doesn't, as in addition to the bussing argument, it carries the same weight as a player saying he's clear because he defended a confirmed townie.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 42#1345342
Agrees with CR, and gives me an FOS because I called CR scummy.

I checked that post. I was attacking you for calling attackers of militant scummy not CR in particular. Your post I quoted was quite vague in who you were directing it to, you said "you guys". And I quoted it because that was the particular post I was responding to. If you were attacking CR why did you not simply say so at the time.

ham is uber-defensive, and again throws suspicion on me for questioning the militant case.

Thats your opinion, just as it is my opinion that it wasn't (I thought your reaction was over-defensive and has been all game). Ultimately it's up to CC to make his own mind up.

I repeatedly ask CR to tell me how he thinks about ham, as he hardly mentioned him at all after voting him.

I don't see what this implies, CR was flaking alot. If you are implying that I'm scummy because CR didn't mention anything bad about me, I can mention that CR/FL repeatedly has expressed a pro-tow read of you.

I find people generally don't like to answer questions like "do you think X is scummy?".

If I can just rant for a while...
Take you're reaction to me asking you about CR post 919. It was a simple honest question, I really had no idea of your position and wanted you to state it for the record. I could only find what I said I found, which is why I used the word "only". I also gave my current assumption ie. CR was low on your list. So you know what I am currently thinking. The word "only" was also used to give you a reason WHY I was assuming. I was wanting you to summarise all your position in case it had changed or if I missed something. Which is why I worded the question as "is it safe to assume ... ?". Instead you chose to take "only" as an attack on you and the only answer I could get from your response was "I suspect CR more than you do".

If you are scum this response makes sense, but if you are town, over defensive responses like this make it hard to question you and therefore get reads on you. (I know defensiveness is not a good scum tell, but in my opinion, in excess, it's anti-town)
... end rant.

[GIEFF]

If you are implying that I'm scummy because CR didn't mention anything bad about me

I am implying that CR's vote for you wasn't serious, as it had no follow-up whatsoever. A scum voting for his buddy is NOT being serious.

[CarnCarn]

Deeply sorry I haven't been able to get that post I mentioned, and a personal emergency has come up, making me unavailable to post until Wednesday. Apologies again.

[GIEFF]

If I can just rant for a while...
Take you're reaction to me asking you about CR post 919. It was a simple honest question, I really had no idea of your position and wanted you to state it for the record. I could only find what I said I found, which is why I used the word "only". I also gave my current assumption ie. CR was low on your list. So you know what I am currently thinking. The word "only" was also used to give you a reason WHY I was assuming. I was wanting you to summarise all your position in case it had changed or if I missed something. Which is why I worded the question as "is it safe to assume ... ?". Instead you chose to take "only" as an attack on you and the only answer I could get from your response was "I suspect CR more than you do".

If you are scum this response makes sense, but if you are town, over defensive responses like this make it hard to question you and therefore get reads on you. (I know defensiveness is not a good scum tell, but in my opinion, in excess, it's anti-town)
... end rant.

It was not a simple honest question. You put the word "attack" in quotes, and you claimed that I did not attack CR as much as I attacked other players.

Is that the only "attack" on CR? I think it pales in comparison with you're cases on other players.

You tried to claim something untrue, so I corrected you, and ATTACKED you for again misrepresenting the past.

I am not "hard to question" when the questions are not leading attempts to discredit me and to misrepresent the past.

[hasdgfas]

Just checking in to apologize for disappearing. Life has been crazy and I haven't been posting anywhere. I'll be getting back in the swing of things later today(Wednesday).
I didn't forget about you though, I had VRK watching over you while I was spending time off-site.

[GIEFF]

No worries, hasd; I didn't even notice your absence.

[GIEFF]

I have noticed your absence though, CC. I see you are back from V/LA. I hope everything is all right.

I would really like you to contribute.

[CarnCarn]

ok, i've set a couple hours aside this evening, so I'll get to this then.

[GIEFF]

Thanks.

[GIEFF]

48 hours later...

ham hasn't posted in 7 days; has he been prodded?

[hasdgfas]

48 hours later...

ham hasn't posted in 7 days; has he been prodded?

ugh, sorry. Had too much to do this weekend.

Prodding CarnCarn and hambargarz. Deadline will be implemented very soon.

[hambargarz]

responding to prod.

I had popped in a few times the last couple of days, but I haven't had much to post actually, I am waiting on CC to post something to be honest.

I don't really count CC's posts today so far as "posts". ie. I don't really see any of his posts actually advance things along, state a position or bring up a case on either me or GIEFF.

As he says, he's getting around to it. I'm sure this will all change once CC actually does post. But for now, its been me and GIEFF back and forth.

[GIEFF]

Yep. Don't know why a townie would lurk as much as CC has been.