Mini 731 Speed Dating Smalltown: Over!

[Shanba]

The problem I have with roleblocking empking is this:

"Most of the other town seemed to agree with me that he was scum, but didn't want to lynch him becuase of his role."

if you roleblock him, well... doesn't that negate the point of his role anyway? :S

Shanba, I don't think most of the to thought emp was scum. I think most of the town thought he was being stupid town. Saying that I can see the logic in a regular roleblock from those who did think that he was scum. While it is indeed not good that he was blocked, it is better than giving him a free pass and possibly letting a potential scum emp make the kill.

I was quoting from OP. Hence the quotation marks.

I don't think I can understand any of you here. I was opposed to the lynch of Empking because I did not want to lose the tracker role. If we're just going to block him anyway, hell, we may as well have lynched him yesterday! How many days do you think the scum will let the tracker live? I assumed they'd be hitting the protection roles last night, tbh. We've wasted one of our tracks. Even if tracker lives to endgame, that's generally no more than about 4 nights! A quarter, at best, of the role's value has been negated because of OP's carelessness.

You probably think I'm obsessed by this, or putting too much value on the tracker role. It's not that. We were discussing yesterday how it was the most important role, we went into great detail about how it should not be lynched and yet nevertheless someone decides to cripple it's power despite all that!

[farside22]

I agree with you shanba which is why I would support an OP lynch. Obviously he isn't scum hunting or attempting to try and play this game.

[hohum]

Well the last person to give up info is Oman. Tell us who he protected.
Shanba are you telling me you think Korts reasons for trying to block a change is valid after he was the one to discuss agreeing with the town from the get go?

I tihnk it's valid reasoning, I never questioned your vote. I questioned the other two.

I also think it's pretty dull and uninteresting, unlikely to catch scum and unlikely to lead to productive discussion.

Shanba didn't target anyone, as Shanba was the sensor last night. No one targeted me, though.

This Korts thing is all so much hot air. I really don't like the mysterious evaporating wagon on him.

FoS: Tanarin, hohum.

That is just... ugh. I understand farside's reasoning, and I don't think it's a bad thing to be pushing, but hohum jumps on with a weakass reason and then backs down in a massively scummy manner. Tanarin's vote also strikes me the wrong way, but it's not as bad as hohum.

Even after Xtoxm is dead, people are massively mischaracterising the case against him... it was never, from my perspective, about lurking.

How was my back down scummy? Someone pointed out the weakness in my reasoning, and made me understand why it was incorrect. I wasn't going to hold on to such weak reasoning to justify a vote.

My problem is not really with the unvote itself... it's what it shows. You admit that it is weak reasoning. To be brutally honest, I cannot see how anyone could have thought it would be strong reasoning. Furthermore, you had been going hammer and tongs after EmpKing. Why would you cahnge your position on such a bizarre basis? Yet there were other reasons for voting Korts available at the time, notably, the stuff farside was pushing, the fact that he was blocked on a night with no kill... by unvoting, you show that these did not influence your decision, and so it was

just

the weak reasoning you had brought up that you were using. However, the push against Korts was still there! There was the basis of a wagon against Korts. It was only when you were called on your bullshit, there, that you stopped pushing the wagon.

A combination of the early momentum against Korts and the exposure it gave of your weak reasoning was what made me characterise your unvote as scummy.

Tanarin: meh, Ok. More interested in grilling hohum anyway. Might come back to this later, but I doubt it.

I haven't really changed my position. I'm still very supportive of an Empking lynch, but I'm not going to sit here and soapbox about the issue if the rest of the town isn't on board with me. If the town is going to give him a free pass then I'm not going to yell and scream about it. It isn't going to do me any good and it's only going to add more noise to the discussion. I'm sick of being the one standing here screaming that empking is obvscum.

I have a right to change my mind, on korts too. I've already made a series of mistakes relating to the mechanics of this game and I'm trying to keep an open mind.

[Shanba]

If empking is scum, you need to be there trying to pound that into everyone's head. If you're right and I'm wrong, which is eminently possible (as I said, I feel empking is more scummy than not), then we need him lynched. We can't afford t have townies back down on their convictions unless they are convinced that those convictions are wrong. I questioned empking about this with regards to farside earlier, and it is a major basis of why my read on him went from neutral to somewhat scummy.

However, try a different approach. Convince me that empking is scummy. I don't me laying out a list of "here is scummy act A, here is scummy act B," as I'm perfectly well aware of what the case on empking is. But I do not see it as significant. Show me that his behaviour is scummy, don't just tell me it is. If you read my posts, you can see my objections to a lot of the stuff against empking. Address those. Show me that they are wrong. One of the things I try and do is keep an open mind: it's mafia, I'm wrong as much as I'm right, so is everyone else, help me pick the good stuff out from the bad and

show me he is scum.

[orangepenguin]

I don't get it. If Empking is scum like I think, than why would he even tell us the truth? His results are meaningless if we can't trust him. Do you honestly believe Empking would've told you the truth Shanba? I think it's ridiculous how he is being cleared basically as a townie because of silly meta reasonings and whatnot.

Yesterday, it was "we can't lynch emp because he is the tracker". Well, he's no longer the tracker, he's the mason. Compared to the tracker, mason isn't that great of a role. Somebody else now is the tracker. I am no longer the Jack of all trades, but I wouldn't have blocked the tracker if it was anyone other than Empking.

Lucky for you guys when I come under pressure, I become a million times more interested in a game, and start posting more... It's just a general meta for myself, regardless of alignment. Those who have played with me might know of this. But I am trying to scumhunt! Don't say I'm not. It just that I am outnumbered and have little importance over the town, and it's just kind of frustrating. =/ I admit that I might be tunneling, so I will

try

to look at other people.

[Shanba]

I don't get it. If Empking is scum like I think, than why would he even tell us the truth? His results are meaningless if we can't trust him. Do you honestly believe Empking would've told you the truth Shanba? I think it's ridiculous how he is being cleared basically as a townie because of silly meta reasonings and whatnot.

There are several things wrong with this train of logic.
a)You cannot know that he is scum. You can be pretty certain, but you cannot be sure. As such, it is not guaranteed that he would be lying to us.
b)His results are not meaningless. I don't see him surviving to endgame. Do you? As soon as we know his alignment, they have meaning.
c)Furthermore, even if we didn't know his alignment, if he had tracked someone to the kill and they denied it, we would have know that either he or the other person was scum. This sort of information is crucial.
d)Even if it did transpire he was scum, that information could have been useful. Why did he protect x?

Now, as for silly meta, denigrating meta in this just gets my goat. Meta is important. How could it not be!? We're talking about a game where you're trying to discern people's motivations. Understanding their character, their mannerisms, the way they use language, signs that they are nervous, that they are angry, all these things and more are important to the goal of discerning alignment! If empking's behaviour is identical to how he plays in every game, then how can it be an indication of his alignment? If it's not a function of his alignment, but a function of his personality, all you are doing is scapegoating.

I say what I said to hohum. Prove to me that he is scum. Hell, do some legwork and show me that his play is different to when he is town or similar to when he is scum. Then I might listen.

Yesterday, it was "we can't lynch emp because he is the tracker". Well, he's no longer the tracker, he's the mason. Compared to the tracker, mason isn't that great of a role. Somebody else now is the tracker. I am no longer the Jack of all trades, but I wouldn't have blocked the tracker if it was anyone other than Empking.

Yesterday, it was I'm not going to lynch emp because he's the tracker and because I don't have a strong scum read on him. Today it's I'm not going to lynch emp because I don't have a strong scum read on him.

[Empking]

Are the mason's OP and Emp even talking to each other. OP is my second suspect so any comment from OP to you Emp?

Just a hello.

My internet isn't working very well, so I might not be able to post much.

[shaft.ed]

I wanted to clarify what a bus driver does as I realized it is not spelled out in Evette's role PM, and I've received a question about it.

The Bus Driver ... may choose to switch two players each night. Thus, any night choice performed on a switched player will affect the other player targeted by the Bus Driver. The Bus Driver's night choices are only valid for that same night.

For example, the Bus Driver switches John and Jack. That same night, a roleblocker targets John and a Goon targets Jack. It will be Jack to be roleblocked and John to be killed.

[Korts]

If scum is dumb enough to hold roles (as you tried to do) they deserve to be lynched.

Oh yeah. Brilliant logic. Scum might try to hold roles, I tried to hold roles therefore I am scum QED.

Korts omgus reaction to me questioning him with a valid reason mind you. Why Emp isn't calling a korts a liar.

OMGUS? Valid reason? Liar? Please substantiate these claims.

[farside22]

Explain this:

Meh. I had good reasons, something you're ignoring. The focal point you chose as your case is that I didn't follow the exact wording of my promise instead of something

scummy

per se and

the fact that you're pushing this bullshit is making me want to accuse you.

You can't handle the pressure then you need to explain yourself better. You keep saying you wanted to stop hohum from getting a "powerful" role however the point I keep making and you are not answering is why is it powerful. You stated that he could keep scum with roles that help them. I'm pointing out that if he does it without the town's premission he should be lynched. As you tried to do without a valid reason in my book.
I DO NOT SEE THE ROLE AS POWERFUL.
Tracker powerful
doctor helpful
JOAT helpful/ powerful.

[Korts]

What makes you think I can't handle the pressure?

You keep saying you wanted to stop hohum from getting a "powerful" role however the point I keep making and you are not answering is why is it powerful. You stated that he could keep scum with roles that help them. I'm pointing out that if he does it without the town's premission he should be lynched.

Reasons are not hard to come by and town would be stupid if they blindly lynched anyone who broke the rules that had been set up. If town doesn't lynch me my point is proven that the role is a powerful one, therefore my usage of it was justified.

As you tried to do without a valid reason in my book.

I gave you my reason, you don't consider it valid, that's settled.

I DO NOT SEE THE ROLE AS POWERFUL.

I DO.

And for the record, in reply to a parallel argument, tracker has no use in scum hands other than keeping it from town; mafia trackers are useful basically only to find power roles, and your point about lying about targets is true for basically any active role in the game.

[farside22]

Only scum lies.
I don't see you handling pressure when you want to vote for me.

How is the role powerful? I already stated why it isn't in counter to your reason why it is powerful.

I want to see a case against hohum that you keep hinting out but haven't written out.

[Korts]

Only scum lies.
I don't see you handling pressure when you want to vote for me.

I don't want to vote for you at this point, but the fact that it's largely bullshit you're pushing would be a valid reason.

How is the role powerful? I already stated why it isn't in counter to your reason why it is powerful

Well, and I don't agree with your counter-argument. My opinion is still the same.

I'll post the hohum case later, when I have the time to dig the stuff up.

[Oman]

Only scum lies.

Bullshit, straight out.

[farside22]

Only scum lies.

Bullshit, straight out.

I am insinuate stuff as town but I do my best not to lie. I don't recall lying as town ever.
(pause)
Oh well Oman you lie no matter what. It's your nature not mine. I think lying is stupid as town. It hurts the town.

[MafiaSSK]

Only scum lies.

Bullshit, straight out.

I am insinuate stuff as town but I do my best not to lie. I don't recall lying as town ever.
(pause)
Oh well Oman you lie no matter what. It's your nature not mine. I think lying is stupid as town. It hurts the town.

I believe I can quote you saying the oppisite it a MD thread.

[Oman]

Me or Farside?

I really approve of lying if it favours the town, yeah its a hard choice to make, but we have to give people some reign.

[MafiaSSK]

Me or Farside?

I really approve of lying if it favours the town, yeah its a hard choice to make, but we have to give people some reign.

Farside.

[hohum]

Me or Farside?

I really approve of lying if it favours the town, yeah its a hard choice to make, but we have to give people some reign.

QFT. I just learned this lesson the hard way.

[farside22]

Only scum lies.

Bullshit, straight out.

I am insinuate stuff as town but I do my best not to lie. I don't recall lying as town ever.
(pause)
Oh well Oman you lie no matter what. It's your nature not mine. I think lying is stupid as town. It hurts the town.

I believe I can quote you saying the oppisite it a MD thread.

Really? I'm not sure I recall at all what I said in regards to this. Quotes please.

[Empking]

Only scum lies.

Bullshit, straight out.

I am insinuate stuff as town but I do my best not to lie. I don't recall lying as town ever.
(pause)
Oh well Oman you lie no matter what. It's your nature not mine. I think lying is stupid as town. It hurts the town.

So you've gone from "Only scum lies" to only scum and Oman lie?

[farside22]

Only scum lies.

Bullshit, straight out.

I am insinuate stuff as town but I do my best not to lie. I don't recall lying as town ever.
(pause)
Oh well Oman you lie no matter what. It's your nature not mine. I think lying is stupid as town. It hurts the town.

So you've gone from "Only scum lies" to only scum and Oman lie?

Don't start. Why aren't you question Kort and his disregard for doing what he said he would do?

[Korts]

farside, it's one thing to question me, but why are you so intent on having

everyone

question me?

[farside22]

farside, it's one thing to question me, but why are you so intent on having

everyone

question me?

Emp is known to attack things like what you did. I want to know why he hasnt' said boo about it.

[Empking]

What specific thing are you talking about?