Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over

[Goatrevolt]

@Gieff: I truly believe that you are singling me and trying to eventual force claim for inadquate and petty reasons.

Worried about being forced to claim. +cop

Regardless of the debacle afterward, you're blowing an IGMEOY out of purportion in a way that is leading me to believe you are rolefishing scum.

FoS:Gieff

FoSing GIEFF on the notion that he is fishing for your role. +cop

I had to go check my role to see if I actually WAS scum.

Having to go back and check your role. -cop (power roles typically remember they are a power role).

You do get info if I'm town. Not just if I'm scum. I actually think you get more info if I'm town.

Getting info if he's town. +cop

I believe I've been quite explicit that I wanted the day to end and us to lynch someone. I didn't specify that It didn't need to be me. Of course I prefer it but I've gone to great lengths to get people to calm down and stop convoluting the information so far this day. My lynch giving us info is just BS.

Here he's saying that he didn't explicitly point out that the lynch needed to be someone other than him. -cop...but not a huge selling point.

Series of posts where Panzer pushes for the end of the day

Accelerating the game to the night phase. +cop...but not a huge selling point.

---------------

I'm not seeing a reason to disbelieve this claim. GIEFF, if you have information, I suggest you come out with it immediately, since today is the 7th, and I believe the deadline is tomorrow, the 8th.

While it's possible that Panzer is scum lying, his early interaction with GIEFF would point to him actually being the cop. I think lynching him today, barring a counterclaim or good information from GIEFF, would be a poor move.

[Zilla]

Goat, I gotta say, I think you're digging pretty deep for connections in some of those cases. For instance, when he says you might get more information from him if he is town, that doesn't indicate he's more likely to be town. "Accelerating the game to the night phase" is also a scumtell, and in fact seems like a more valid scumtell than a cop-tell. The "checking my role" bit wasn't likely serious.

I do agree about some of his paranoia over claiming helping to validate a bit, but scum could act the same way when being put to the test. I'd say it's more null than anything.

[PJ.]

Notice how the three people that aren't buying my claim and wanting to lynch a non counterclaimed cop are the 3 closest to the top of my scum list.

Also, Goat, sure but if they claim cop scum has to be pretty good a pulling shit out of their ass. Also, cop is one of the most popular power roles so their is a HUGE risks in claiming it. And on the whole I had too check my role, that clearly was a joke that I was using to illustrate that GIEFF had a good point. It wasn't me saying I seriously had to check my role.

[Goatrevolt]

Accusing someone of rolefishing, or that they are only pushing your wagon to get a claim out of you fits with the mindset of a power role more than that of scum. Saying "scum could act the same way when put to the test" is meaningless. You could say that about literally every aspect of this game, but quite frankly some actions make more sense from town than scum. Just because it's possible some action could be done by scum doesn't actually mean that it is likely.

Accelerating the game to the night phase isn't really a scum tell, just like stretching the day really long isn't a town tell. If someone is fit to be lynched, then lynch them. What I was saying with that point is that Panzer pushing to go to night fits with the idea that he is a cop who wants it to be night so he can use his role. Yes, it could also fit with scum who want to make a kill, but scum are usually fairly self-conscious about demanding for the end of the day, as doing so is generally frowned upon as scummy.

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At any rate, I think cop is a plausible claim for Panzer. I'm not saying that he is the cop for sure, but just that his play has been consistent with the play of a cop and thus he should not be lynched for that.

I think lynching him today is a bad idea. His claim fits, and if he is town, the information he can generate for us would be very useful. Let's say we decide we are going to wait and lynch him day 3, no matter what. I'm not saying that is the best way to play it, but let's just assume we decide that. If he is scum, it sucks to wait 2 days to lynch scum, but at least we are still lynching scum eventually. If he is town, then he will either be shot by scum for being a cop, or he will be produce two results for us that we will know to be truthful. The risks of lynching a day 1 claimed cop who's claim makes sense on his play are not worth the potential benefit if he is actually scum.

[mykonian]

I'm not seeing a reason to disbelieve this claim. GIEFF, if you have information, I suggest you come out with it immediately, since today is the 7th, and I believe the deadline is tomorrow, the 8th.

10th I believe. Luckily, then we have a chance we can move this. People tend to be lazy in the weekend.

[GIEFF]

I saw that rolefishing thing too, Goat, and I agree it makes him more likely to be the cop. It is also a bad thing for a real cop to say, as it is a HUGE hint that you are a PR. So by Panzer's own WIFOM-logic, why would a PR act like a PR?


Panzer is right, I DON'T know that he is not the cop. I was fishing for reactions from Panzer and from qwints (and from anybody else who may have been Panzer's scumbuddy). I was hoping for a bit more, but I'd think that the real cop would have been a bit more defensive and angry, especially considering Panzer's past, where he gets very angry when he doesn't understand why he is being voted.

Even though FIVE people haven't seen the claim yet, I agree that we should move on to B_B. I do not trust Panzer's claim, but in the absence of a counterclaim, he is right that we cannot lynch him. Although if the mafia has a roleblocker, an outed cop is no better than a townie anyway.



My vote is for B_B to claim.

[Goatrevolt]

A thought: A counterclaim is not necessarily damning. It depends on who does it and the circumstances surrounding it. Do NOT hammer Panzer immediately if there is a counterclaim.

[Zilla]

I agree with everything below your dash-line in your big post, Goat, but you're trying to call the result of a WIFOM with the rushing to night logic. You're saying that it can't be a scumtell because it's obviously a scumtell. That's not sound reasoning.

I can understand the reasoning for the rolefishing comment increasing his chance to be a power role, but I don't necessarily agree with it. It benefits scum to say those things because their desire not to claim is even greater than a power-role's desire not to claim. It forces them to lie, which means they are much more easily exposed for that lie.

It's all rather irrelevant, though, and I think saying we are definitely going to lynch Panzer day 3 is actually not a bad plan. It's possible that it would keep him alive longer if he's telling the truth, since mafia wouldn't likely want to kill someone who will give them a free Day 3, and he can get two investigations.

No matter what, though, we ought to keep him alive today. Tomorrow we'll definately have more information on this game, and since he's already outed, he shouldn't have a problem sharing his results. If we decide that we are definitely going to lynch him Day 3, it will be confirmation on his results if he's the cop.

I do think we shouldn't just gallivant around pushing claims out of people though. Not that there's much we can do about it, I guess, because the alternative is lynching a possible power role, but having so many claims out on the field are only going to make it easy for the mafia who know which ones are valid and which ones are not.

[mykonian]

GIEFF, can we wait with a bb claim until we don't have a cc? Half of the game has seen the claim...

Goat, from all but BB (and maybe qwints) I'm likely to believe it. And I want to quote GIEFF:

I would be royally pissed off if the real cop is off in lurky-land and didn't notice a fake-claim.

[GIEFF]

Yes, mykonian, but at odds with that is the deadline which is getting closer and closer. What do we do if BB claims a power role, too? Originally I wanted to wait until just about everyone saw the claim, but I don't know when that will be. If we wait until monday, that leaves us just 24 hours for everybody to see B_B's claim, everybody the chance to CC, and everybody to shift their votes as a group to get the best lynch candidate. I have no confidence we can do all of that successfully in 24 hours.

[Zilla]

^ Expecially given the penchant for lurking we have in SL, Militant, Qwints, ting, Sens, etc, etc.

I think prodding Sens might be a good idea, just so he at least acknowledges whether he's still reading or whether he's dropped it.

[mykonian]

guess you are right... I'm losing confidence too. I have seen too many wagons that can't even shift, without claims, within 4-5 days.

[kloud1516]

^ Expecially given the penchant for lurking we have in SL, Militant, Qwints, ting, Sens, etc, etc.

I think prodding Sens might be a good idea, just so he at least acknowledges whether he's still reading or whether he's dropped it.

Prodded Sens earlier today. My apologies for not notifying you all.

[mykonian]

let's not count on him. He probably can't help us that much (only voting for the biggest bandwagon, possibly)

[SensFan]

^ Expecially given the penchant for lurking we have in SL, Militant, Qwints, ting, Sens, etc, etc.

Yes, I'm quite clearly lurking, and not just reading 40+ pages...

[Zilla]

You've got some outstanding questions that require immediate attention, Sens.

[SensFan]

You've got some outstanding questions that require immediate attention, Sens.

Then I suggest you repost them, because I'm not done reading yet.

[Goatrevolt]

I agree with everything below your dash-line in your big post, Goat, but you're trying to call the result of a WIFOM with the rushing to night logic. You're saying that it can't be a scumtell because it's obviously a scumtell. That's not sound reasoning.

No. I'm saying it's not a scum tell because I don't think scum are likely to do it. Not wanting to stretch out the day is not scummy, it's just something that people perceive as scummy, thus scum generally avoid it. Granted, it's not a huge tell, but there it is.

[GIEFF]

You've got some outstanding questions that require immediate attention, Sens.

Then I suggest you repost them, because I'm not done reading yet.

All we need for now is whether or not you counterclaim Panzer's claim of being the cop.

[SensFan]

You've got some outstanding questions that require immediate attention, Sens.

Then I suggest you repost them, because I'm not done reading yet.

All we need for now is whether or not you counterclaim Panzer's claim of being the cop.

I do not.

[Zilla]

I thought there was some other issue back when Qwints was being questioned, but I don't remember what, exactly... *shrug*

[PJ.]

Dude get you votes of me..if there is a counter claim then you all can string me up, but deadline is coming in rwo days and if I get deadline lynched that'll be BS. Anyone with a vote on me right now is incredibly scummy and is trying to lynch the cop.

[mykonian]

Dude get you votes of me..if there is a counter claim then you all can string me up, but deadline is coming in rwo days and if I get deadline lynched that'll be BS. Anyone with a vote on me right now is incredibly scummy and is trying to lynch the cop.

QFT. We got way to little room to do something now. and we have to practically mobilize the whole game to prevent a panzer lynch.

[SensFan]

Unvote

, in case I'm voting Panzer.

I'll get this read done today.

[GIEFF]

Dude get you votes of me..if there is a counter claim then you all can string me up, but deadline is coming in rwo days and if I get deadline lynched that'll be BS. Anyone with a vote on me right now is incredibly scummy and is trying to lynch the cop.

If you're the real cop, why didn't you think it was scummy for me to say I had information that proves you weren't the cop?