Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over

[mykonian]

yeah, qwints has a serious problem with the pace of this game, I guess. Lurks very much. actually I don't remember anything he said.

[GIEFF]

I forgot Dourgrim, who said he may need to be replaced.

If all three of the MIA posters (militant, ting, and Dourgrim) claim "not-cop", then I think B_B should claim ASAP - does anybody disagree? We just have to hope they get back to the thread soon.

mod, have you prodded militant, ting, or Dourgrim recently?

[GIEFF]

I am not cop, but I don't buy Panzer's claim at all. Still, my line of thought prevents me from voting for Panzer yet since it is bad play. Thinking...thinking...
Need time to consider the claim. Anyway, I don't think I voted Panzer of put him in my top 3, but I surely would now.

Why would you put Panzer in your top 3 now? What has changed since Post 836, when he was 5th on your list, or Post 956, when he was not in your top 3?

[Dourgrim]

I haven't been prodded, I

am

pretty far behind at the moment though. I'll try to read up tonight and post tomorrow, I flat-out don't have time now. Sorry.

[GIEFF]

Before you go, Dourgrim: Panzer has claimed cop, do you counter that claim?

[Zilla]

BB, I don't like the conditional addendum you have on your reasoning for qwints. You had to add the "without even acknowledging them" to try to differentiate between him and yourself, and even then, you're only escaping that definition by the trickiest of margins.

I don't like Qwints last post for his unvote, as GIEFF pointed out beautifully. I don't like Birthday, whose vote on me is this old, points this out and has been attacking Qwints but won't vote him.

Skip to *** for discussion of present game. From here to ***, I answer outstanding points BB has against me, and analyze his past behavior from a middle section I had ignored during the time I was preoccupied with Goat

I'm digging for Birthday's case on me. Initially, it was because I didn't agree with Goat's case, and thusly must have "known" Birthday was town. He sticks by this for forever, lots of "I still think Zilla is scummy," then pulls this out.

*Refusing to see Goat's point

And why isn't goat suspected for refusing to see my point, eh?

*Presenting nitpicked arguments.

I'm pretty sure this fell over later on scrutiny, and it seems more included because other people were saying it.

*Defending a townie (who is clearly scummy looking with true reasoning. However, only scum KNOW who is town) until the town's own argument proves this=false, thus ruining her claim to protecting the innocent for Day 2.

Original case; my entire defense was based on Goat's argument being wrong, not that BB had to be town, but that his case was flawed. I believe BB even agreed that his case was flawed, but

it reached the right conclusions

, which to me sounds like scum trying to own up to their behavior to weasel out of scummy actions.

*Having a poor defense of myself Day 1 that ignores facts.

Apparently I misunderstood them, and BB set me straight with his response to Goat's case.

*For being generally scummy in her play.

General statements aren't casemakers, and the same could be said of BB, especially since he acknowledged it.

*For refusing to take a stance on me for a majority of the day and only proceeds to attack me when pressed hard for it.

So now I've "refused to take a stance," when earlier, I was irrationally defending BB? To be certain, I hadn't really taken a stance because I was pretty focused on Goat, and a Myk/Panzer pair possibility. However, if you believe I hadn't taken a stance, then you can't also believe I was "defending someone who I knew to be town."

*Ignores, without acknowledging, Gieff's request policy to not vote me yet and use a "HOS" as to not risk a mis, quicklynch. I just feel that the complete refusal or acknowledgment is scummy. (Just to clarify)

I'd forgotten about the request and GIEFF's count was off. My count put BB at L-2.



Huh, rereading BB, there's some connection to Subgenius, who Sens replaced, and now he's establishing repoire with Sens. Is it possible they are scumbuddies? Is it possible he's "buddying up to town"?

******************

Okay, I've reread BB and he constantly agrees that qwints looks scummy, but continues to simply say "I still think Zilla is scum" every time he brings up these points. He flounders around a bit, sometimes it's either Qwints or Zilla, sometimes it's either GIEFF or Zilla. Lately, and strangely, it's been GIEFF/Zilla, despite Qwints lurking and making scummy posts.

Qwints voted Birthday back when Birthday first owned up to scummy behavior, and hasn't voted him since. I think claiming they aren't scum together would be premature, especially given his fluctuation between pairing me with Qwints and pairing me with GIEFF. If they're distancing, they're not doing a great job of it.

So, I guess I didn't directly address Birthday's argument before, so I can give him the benefit of the doubt in the arena of remaining suspicious of me for so long, but I'm very interested in why he's been switching between GIEFF and Qwints as his secondary suspects, and without ever addressing the other one.

For now, though, qwints has jumped past Birthday on my priority list, and I think there's strong enough support for him that we might be able to get somewhere, and we have more time until deadline.

Unvote: Birthday
Vote: Qwints

[GIEFF]

According to the latest pseudo-vote count, B_B is 3 ahead of qwints. SL, Dour, and militant would all prefer a B_B lynch over qwints.

@ Dour, SL, and militant: Is that still accurate? You prefer B_B to qwints?

----

@ Dour, ting, and militant: Do you CC Panzer's cop claim? You are costing us precious time. Not posting for 3 days is one thing, but not noticing a cop claim by the lynch-target for three days is another.

-----


qwints, please explain why you unvoted Panzer, and why he now looks credible.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Checking in to rebut:

"reaching the right conclusions" is that I am, indeed, scummy looking town. I'm not denying that. I never said that his case was flawed except when it concluded I was scum. I'm not scum, I've don't remember saying I was scum, just that I've been scummy. I brought this up because your defense of me was obvious. Also, I disagree with you on the "seeing [your] point" because your point is stupid in my opinion. On that, I am agreeing to disagree since it is irrelevant to new matters:

Qwints is scummy as hell and seems to be attempting to lurk his way out of the spot light.

Gieff

Panzer claimed. That claim puts panzer in my top 3, end of subject. (however, I wouldn't support a panzer lynch as of yet.

[qwints]

No counter claim combined with an inability on my part to see anyone else bread crumbing their role as cop. Thus panzer is conditionally town for me.

[GIEFF]

Dour, ting, and militant have still not responded to the claim. He is not conditionally town until there really is no counterclaim. It's just a shame that it takes 4 days for everybody to see and respond to the claim.

[Zilla]

BB, now Panzer is your third? Where'd GIEFF go on your list?

BRB, fact-checking about your stance on goat's case.

[Zilla]

I was very busy and didn't care about this game too much. Yes, it is a blunder and NOW I would agree that your assesment can correctly call me scummy. Not because I'm scum, as I'm not, but because my play WAS scummy, just you picked out the wrong reasons.

Now, as this post should imply:
I am in no way saying nor can I even begin to suggest that Goat's case is invalid. His case is entirely valid and well reasoned (though assuming the wrong things, he reaches the right conclusions and at least considers the right reasons.)

Okay, so it's entirely valid (but parenthetically, it assumes the wrong things). The previous part of that post is all about what Goat "missed"

The following is snipped at obvious points. Bold is my responses.
[quote=""Goat"]So, to clarify my points on BB:

Lack of scumhunting.

<---And you think I voted Panzer with an actual reason because...?

Lack of solid stances:

<--Meh, not really. I have stances but for a good majority, they are not too well defined yet. I feel that the motives behind people's posts is obscured, but this will become apparent once I have better reads.

Suspicious disengage from the Panzer wagon:

*Shrugs* I can't really say it wasn't suspicious. Convenient, I would agree with convenient. But convenient isn't necessarily scummy/suspicious. Still, I can definitely say that I think your town.

[/quote]

These are quite murky and echo the opinion that Goat has the right idea to call them scummy, but that his arguments aren't actually valid. So you've said you think Goat's case is valid explicitly, but inherently, you've pointed out where you think it's invalid.

[GIEFF]

No counter claim combined with an inability on my part to see anyone else bread crumbing their role as cop. Thus panzer is conditionally town for me.

Why didn't these reasons apply when you said your vote would stay, in Post 1079? 5 people claimed "not-cop" at the time, and now it's up to 8 people. There are still 3 left who haven't had the opportunity to CC.


----

I don't trust Panzer's claim. I don't think the real cop would have been that lackadaisical about me claiming I KNEW he wasn't really the cop, and I don't think the real cop would be as quiet as Panzer has been lately, and as uninvolved in trying to find a better lynch candidate.

I am pissed off that it's taken 4 days for THREE different players to respond to a cop claim (especially considering the fact that the last time they checked the thread, the deadline would have been TODAY). If none of militant, ting, or Dourgrim are going to CC the cop claim, then we very much needed those four days. We're coming close to the deadline again.

[mykonian]

yeah, things are going wrong.

I never heard of the word lackadaisical, but I thought Panzers post after it quite normal, seen the way Panzer posts.

[GIEFF]

lackadaisical just means laid-back, not caring. Look at how pissed off he got in the past; he showed none of that when I told him I was sure he wasn't really the cop. He just said "I really am the cop" and left it at that. Wouldn't the real cop be more interested in proving me wrong, or in calling me scummy for lying?

This is all moot if militant, ting, and Dourgrim all claim "not-cop," though.

mod, have you prodded militant or ting recently?

They aren't posting at all in other games, either.

[Dourgrim]

I am not counter-claiming.

unvote

Still trying to catch up...

[GIEFF]

Thanks, Dour.

[kloud1516]

mod, have you prodded militant or ting recently?

.

Sending out prods to both right now.

[Goatrevolt]

I agree with GIEFF about the lackadaisical point. I'm having a really hard time reading Panzer, because some of his posts strike me as genuine, but then there are others that strike me as faked emotional bursts. The EBWOP SPIN DOCTOR post, for example, just struck me as a completely faked emotional response, considering it wasn't truly emotional, or it would have been his immediate response.

When I said a counterclaim wouldn't necessarily be damning, I was basically saying that if BB counterclaimed him, I would lean towards lynching BB, because BB was the next in line after Panzer, and might counterclaim to force a mislynch over the alternative of him getting lynched.

By that same token, a lack of counterclaim is not necessarily a statement that Panzer is town. It's possible he's scum and there is no town cop. Based on the meta on this site, I'd argue that there isn't a cop in this game strictly because people are moving away from using cops. I'd hate to try to game the mod like that though.

-------

Regarding Panzer...I just don't know. I'm starting to swing towards thinking he is scum fake claiming. I went back through and looked at his posts, and based on that I can see signs of him possibly being the cop. However, something just feels off about it. I almost feel like he is too calm now, and was too calm back on page 7-10 when he was at L-2.

Unvote

I'd rather lynch Qwints over BB at this point, but I'm not sure if we should lynch Panzer over Qwints.

[GIEFF]

Even if Panzer is the real cop, lynching him wouldn't be all that horrible, because I assume the setup is designed to avoid the "follow-the-cop syndrome". So mafia either has a roleblocker, we don't have a protection role, or something else is going on to ensure that once a cop claims, he is not all that useful to the town. If he is the real cop, now that he is outed, he's likely no more valuable than a vanilla townie.

However, I still don't want to lynch an un-CC'd cop claim, and won't support a Panzer lynch if neither ting nor militant CC's.

I think I would prefer qwints to BB now among lynch-candidates, but it's close. And I think that because there are three posters (Dourgrim, springlullaby, and militant) who included BB in their lynch-list that did not include qwints, then BB should be the target.

Unless these three have changed their minds, or others would prefer qwints to BB.

[mykonian]

even when it is midnight, I know the first part is WRONG: the fact that someone is confirmed increases the odds that you hit scum with a lynch. I tried some calculation (GD stuff) for a simple setup with a tracker, and part of it's usefullness is that it can be a confirmed towny.

[SensFan]

Even if Panzer is the real cop, lynching him wouldn't be all that horrible, because I assume the setup is designed to avoid the "follow-the-cop syndrome". So mafia either has a roleblocker, we don't have a protection role, or something else is going on to ensure that once a cop claims, he is not all that useful to the town. If he is the real cop, now that he is outed, he's likely no more valuable than a vanilla townie.

That's some of the dumbest logic I've ever heard.

[mykonian]

that's also a way to say it...

[GIEFF]

even when it is midnight, I know the first part is WRONG: the fact that someone is confirmed increases the odds that you hit scum with a lynch. I tried some calculation (GD stuff) for a simple setup with a tracker, and part of it's usefullness is that it can be a confirmed towny.

The point is that he is NOT confirmed cop. I would definitely not lynch a confirmed townie. My point is that I don't think he is really the cop, and that even if I am wrong, lynching him wouldn't be the end of the world.

I still don't want to lynch him without a CC.



Care to explain why you disagree with the logic, Sensfan? Or are you of the B_B school, where the only thing you need to do to prove an argument wrong is call it stupid and refuse to discuss it any further?

If a hidden cop is worth 10 points to the town, how many points do you think an outed cop is worth?

[mykonian]

4. The larger the game, the lower this number.