Mini 708 - Cheat Mafia (GAME OVER)

[GhostWriter]

I'm making the assumption that killing and powers cannot be used concurrently. If they indeed cannot, then any case made on disbelieving what I did last night can be flipped to any of you.

Mod, can you tell us if powers and night-killing can both be used?

[sirdanilot]

The mod just said that they can't. But sure let the mod answer the question again. It's not like he's doing enough work yet

So there is no compelling evidence that Axelrod is more likely to be scum than GW or vice-versa?

[iLord]

I'm making the assumption that killing and powers cannot be used concurrently. If they indeed cannot, then any case made on disbelieving what I did last night can be flipped to any of you. Mod, can you tell us if powers and night-killing can both be used?

Only one NORMAL ability may be used each night. Take it as you will.

[Master Ruck]

I would think a normal ability would be something like a cop, doc, watcher, etc so it's understandable only one can be used per night. Special abilities would be something like the mafia or the SK kill, but I'm also tempted to believe that the power Axel and Jahudo claim to have had can be classed as a special ability seeing as you would only see it in this game.

Ghost, you are losing credibility. Plead a case that covers your actions across the whole game that shows us you are not scum.

[GhostWriter]

I don't get how I'm losing credibility. If I tried to place a kill, then I couldn't redirect. If no kill was made, and you got redirected, who's to say it wasn't your "doc"?

I can't plead much of a case other than what I've said on previous days to explain the things I've done.

[Axelrod]

Ghost, what about this then: Tell me who

you

think is the scum right now. Because I'm not hearing anything at all about that from you, and definitely nothing to make me be change my feelings right about now.

I'm 99% that the scum can night kill and also use some other ability in the same night.

[sirdanilot]

Being that the town got such a plethora of powers towards the end of the game (absurd balance-breaking in favor of the town) I would find it very weird if it wasn't the case that the scum not only got a plethora of powers as well, but also would be able to use them simultaneous with the night kill.

Note that if we pin GW as scum for

today

, we aren't done yet. We'd have to use our knowledge to analyze the night actions

yesterday

. So please don't even think about voting until we reach a consensus that we are going to vote.

Another no-lynch is an actual option today, but I'd prefer not to.

There is a possibility of a scum no kill. Let's briefly include this into our analysis.

[GhostWriter]

Since I had a result on Sirdan of him not committing a kill on a night when the last mafia did, I've cleared him in my mind. That leaves you and Master left, and since I'm leaning towards him as town, it's pointing towards you, though I haven't, by any means, cleared Master.

[iLord]

Almost 24 hours without posting! I'll say that if this game ever goes 36 hours without a post, I'll put a deadline.

Starting.... Now

[Axelrod]

Since I had a result on Sirdan of him not committing a kill on a night when the last mafia did, I've cleared him in my mind. That leaves you and Master left, and since I'm leaning towards him as town, it's pointing towards you, though I haven't, by any means, cleared Master.

Okay, well, you can imagine this isn't doing much to change my opinion at least.

Are you maintaining that you got no other ability last Night after updating your test than getting your listening device "fixed?" Nothing else?

[GhostWriter]

I never said I didn't get anything else last night. Just the nights before that. One of them is a more powerful version of my listening device, but it only watches instead of both. The other is a tracking device, which both watches and tracks (used it last night).

[sirdanilot]

Well I'm really not sure what to think of this now and I think we're starting to fall in an impasse.

GW can really go any way, and I haven't seen compelling evidence confirming axel-town yet.

[Master Ruck]

sird, I don't have any record of you saying the results of what you did last night. I think I'm making progress in my thought process, but hearing what you found out would help.

[sirdanilot]

huh? I said I tracked axelrod. he targeted you and gw.

[Master Ruck]

*facepalm*

Duh. Ok, I read that post differently and I thought that was your interpretation of it instead of you saying what you saw. Regardless, Axel is scum, and it's actually quite simple. I'm town, sird is town, and it was proven yesterday that Ghost can't have killed anyone. Among the mass powers and riddles that have come along with it, this seems almost scum fueled as they make themselves look as simple as possible while making the whole riddle as complex as possible.

I looked back at his posts as well and for most of the day he replaced in on he constantly asked everyone to say how many answers they started with. This is a way of letting the scum know who can confirm the most answers and then kill so more answers remain a mystery that scum can control. There was also that whole mess with who cheated and traded off who to get which answer that may or may not have been confirmed. Now we have hindsight, everyone who was involved in that was either scum or the SK and with the way Axel kept saying only one of them must be lying would hopefully have led us to believe only one of them was scum. Not that it mattered for much longer as he had found a new buddy in me.

Cor, answering my mass trade and me getting a couple of powers was perhaps the luckiest break Axel got. If a scum could almost fully convince another townie they are scum, then they pretty much have a free ride to end game. He knew I had hit scum with my cop scan on DGB so if he followed me and kept being my buddy the whole way then he may end up looking as town as I did.

I started not liking him when he said he would use his cop scan on Jahudo. I didn't think he was worth it and that ghost would be a better target, but he ignored that and said he didn't like the comments Jahudo made against him. I figured at the least it would be another confirmed townie if not scum, but Axel saying he cop scan'd Jahudo seems like axel's cover if anyone tried to watch or track him so he would have some kind of backup in me.

As for last night, I think Axel chose to no kill. We're still at lylo so the easiest thing to do is wait for a mislynch then kill the last townie and win. If he kills before that, there would be a paper trail a mile long especially with 2 tracker and watcher powers swimming around last night. To that end, I think Axel redirected me and I haven't a clue what he did to Ghost. Maybe he truly did have that special cheating power and he wanted to see if ghost did update his quiz at last.

Regardless of all this, the game breaking town win was said quit plainly at the start of this post. I'm town, sird is town, ghost can't possibly have killed Jahudo, so Axel is scum.

Vote: Axelrod

[Axelrod]

*facepalm*

Duh. Ok, I read that post differently and I thought that was your interpretation of it instead of you saying what you saw. Regardless, Axel is scum, and it's actually quite simple. I'm town, sird is town, and

it was proven yesterday that Ghost can't have killed anyone

. Among the mass powers and riddles that have come along with it, this seems almost scum fueled as they make themselves look as simple as possible while making the whole riddle as complex as possible.
...
Regardless of all this, the game breaking town win was said quit plainly at the start of this post. I'm town, sird is town,

ghost can't possibly have killed Jahudo

, so Axel is scum.

Vote: Axelrod

NO. MR what is the matter with you?

You appear to be mis-remembering your attitude about me Cop scanning Jahudo. As I recall (and I don't actually have to recall since I still have the PMs), you had absolutely no issues with it. You said it was a "good call." At the time, you were going to have GW covered, and I was going to have Jahudo covered, so almost regardless of what happened, we'd get information - and that didn't end up being the case. But for you to say now that you didn't think me scanning Jahudo was "worth it" and that I "ignored" you, and you were against it, are blatant falsehoods. Which is more than a little concerning.

And it was not "proved" yesterday that Ghost could not have killed anyone. SirD claimed a re-direct of GW to me. He said he was told it was "successful." GW claimed he used his "Listening Device" on Jahudo - the person who died - and said that he

didn't

"hear" me (which he ought to have, if I actually killed Jahudo, yes? He said he heard DGB kill someone earlier in the game and there was supposedly no doubt about it.) And YOU said your RB/Jailing attempt was re-directed onto you don't know who. SirD further claimed that someone did attempt to block him, but that it failed.

Those are contradiction that can't be explained except by someone lying or by scum being able to kill without interference.

I mean, the possibilities for what kind of hypothetical powers a scum might have gained in this game are endless, but with multiple townies gaining some kind of "re-direct" ability, the scum having a kill that can't be redirected/can't be blocked/unstoppable or something like that is not very hard to believe. There's also a distinction being drawn between "Normal" powers and "Special" powers, which I don't think was clear before today. I think it is entirely possible, and even likely that SirD - if his ability actually did anything at all the Night before, was unable to re-direct the kill. That is just not a huge intuitive leap to make in this game when it's clear there's a blatant contradiction in the Night action reports.

Read THIS again and tell me where I'm wrong.

You are now trying to make this sound simple, when it's anything but. And you are mis-representing our Night communications. Why are you doing that?

[Master Ruck]

SirD claimed a re-direct of GW to me. He said he was told it was "successful."

You've said all you needed to say right here. The mod told SirD his redirection was successful. The mod would not lie, meaning it was successful. GW targetted you that night so he can't possibly have killed Jahudo. It is simple. You killed Jahudo. You are scum.

[Master Ruck]

Oh, and I don't believe the kills are immune to redirection. Otherwise it would instantly become less of a power. You are now just trying to cover yourself.

[Master Ruck]

Gah, triple post. Ok, maybe I did over exagerate our talks a little bit, but even you have to admit that choosing to scan Jahudo just because he made a comment or two against you is a pretty poor reason for choosing him. When I chose to scan DGB, I ignored pretty much everything everyone said about me or anyone else and worked off off vibes and a bit of elimination. Surely GW would have been a better scan, even if he was proven town?

[Axelrod]

I'm not saying "kills are immune to re-direction." I'm saying the scum could

easily

have gained a power to make it so. Or his "Normal" ability could have been re-directed (successful!) and the killing ability not.

Or just something that gives SirD false results (Successful! when it's not). How you can say "the Mod. would not lie to players" is just wrong. Is the Mod. "lying" when he tells a Cop that a scum GF is town? I said this before, but there's also a distinction between "Successful - your ability was not blocked" and "Successful - your ability did what you intended it to do."

If I'm the scum, and GW is town, how do you explain his own claimed "results" - hearing Jahudo and SirD - and not me? Is the Mod. "lying" to him?

What do you think happened last Night - that I chose to re-direct you to GW and not kill...why? I'm not a fan of making WIFOM arguments, but what exactly do you think I (as scum) would have been trying to achieve there? Does that make any sense? You TOLD me you were going to "watch" SirD. What do I gain by "re-directing" you to GW and not killing? WIFOM is one thing, but that entire theory just makes no sense.

And I have to admit no such thing about Jahudo. He was pushing on me, and he was the one raising the most hackles. Who else? You are using 20-20 hindsight to say "look what a poor choice that was" but there's no way I could know that going in. Which you ought to know.

[sirdanilot]

K. I'm lost here now. I've never been good at theme endgames but when my time comes to lay down a vote I'll try to comprehend it the best I can. I am not voting right now yet.

Firstly, let's use Occam's Razor on this. What is the most likely? GW couldn't have killed Jahudo night 4 because I redirected him succesfully, and process of elimination gives axel-scum, or my report was *somehow* corrupted and GW killed jahudo and axel is innocent? To me, it looks like the first one.
As for night 5, Axel targeted Master Ruck *and* GW. He claims doc and answer sheet checking (or something like that). Since doc doesn't seem to be a special power, the answer sheet checking would've been his special power. Is this power more likely than the ability to night kill?

However, if he attempted to night kill, why didn't it succeed? Does he have two special scum powers? And would scum get one-shot doc?

Night 5 is a puzzle still unsolved, but night 4 seems clear to me...

[sirdanilot]

Also this little convo was awfully scummy, although I do think night actions are more important right now than scumminess.

[quote="sirdanilot]Axelrod please fully claim what you did to whom first thank you[/quote]

All right. I had some debate, but ultimately I decided to Doc protect Master Ruck last Night.

Ghostwriter?

Axel targeted Master Ruck AND Ghostwriter.
(...)
Question: Axel why did you lie. What did you do with GhostWriter? Are you scum? GW why are you not scum?

SirD, I did not lie, and I have never lied this entire game. You asked me what I did "first" which is what I answered. I've learned that sometimes not spilling everything you have all at once is the best course of action in this game. Right now, for example, it tells me that you probably did, in fact, "Track" me, and therefore, were probably not out trying to kill someone else.

I've gained one other power which is completely irrelevant at this stage of the game, but I targeted GW with it anyway. It's a "peeking" power which let's me look at someone else's test even if they have alerts set up. Whoopie. I can do that plus another power in the same night though.

What I want to know is why Axel decided to use his doc power in the end. He told me that he was thinking of not using it as a 3-man end would make things easier to solve and that if there was no death, it would be one among whatever number of possibilities as to why a kill didn't go through. If he had all this logic, then why did he go ahead and use it?

I was thinking of not using it. And I was thinking of using it on SirD. And I was thinking a lot of other things besides. Ultimately I came to the conclusion that (1) assuming GW was scum, which was my assumption, then (2) YOU were his only logical target. And frankly, if I could stop a kill and have 3 townies living today, that would be significantly better than getting into a 3-man endgame where one mis-vote = lose, and SirD already expressing "suspicions" about me.

I'm now completely satisfied in my own mind that it's GW. The "I fixed my device and now I saw both who targeted MR and who he targeted" sounds like complete bunk. There's just no other possibility.

Note that I must say that if you do turn up scum this post was absolutely brilliant.

[Master Ruck]

I think Axel chose not to kill last night and targetted both me and Ghost. We're still in lylo unless something happens during the night to block the kill, so a mislynch here would still likely grant scum as much victory as if there were 3. Also, more people gives more targets to shift the blame to. With only 3 people, it's possible to come to some kind of concencus and narrow down the last scum more easily.

Axel, you say you're not a fan of WIFOM arguments? I don't believe you. This whole thing screams WIFOM and it's all been helped by you making this as difficult and complex a puzzle for us to try and solve. Why can it not be as simple as I see it? Why must we continue to overthink this and get absolutely nowhere? Surely town would look for a simple solution while scum would try and get everyone so caught up they forget to look for scum.

Last night I think Axel did get that special cheating power which he used on Ghost to confirm if he had updated his test or not. Then he also used his redirection power on me under the ruse of a doc protection, which would mean nothing as there would be no kill that night to protect against. I was redirected to watch ghost, which is confirmed with my watching him to see axel target him. Ghost tracked me to see i targetted him and watched me to see Axel targetting me. Sird tracked axel and saw he targetted both me and ghost. I see night 5 as solved which was axel trying to make this as confusing as possible.

[Axelrod]

So you are saying you really think I did "re-direct" you just to cause arm waving hysterical mass confusion. Redirected you to a target that I myself would be targeting. On a Night I was otherwise planning to not kill anyone.

Lovely. I don't think there's a whole lot I can say to that.

SirD, I think it's on you. GW will hop on whenever you vote. If you are just so convinced that GW couldn't have killed anyone because our honorable mod. would just never have misled you so badly, then there's nothing else I can say.

[sirdanilot]

I'm not voting yet. I really, really dislike making decisions like these, and I'll be very honest with my reasons for this; if I make the wrong call, all the blame is on me. Of course I have no choice here (I am definitely not replacing out) so I'll eventually have to drop the vote of doom I guess, but not right now.

MR says he was redirected. You do not claim a redirect ability. Could you exactly state your hypothesis on what happened last night in a clear and concise way, axel, from your point of view (as in assuming you are town).