Mini 708 - Cheat Mafia (GAME OVER)

[GhostWriter]

And it was not "proved" yesterday that Ghost could not have killed anyone. SirD claimed a re-direct of GW to me. He said he was told it was "successful." GW claimed he used his "Listening Device" on Jahudo - the person who died - and said that he

didn't

"hear" me (which he ought to have, if I actually killed Jahudo, yes? He said he heard DGB kill someone earlier in the game and there was supposedly no doubt about it.)

So, you ended this post with a link to a page where, just a bit further down, I explained what happened that night, including the redirection that happened. You make it seem like I should have seen you kill Jahudo due to watching him. Too bad I attempted to target Sirdan, not Jahudo. When I did mention Jahudo in my post, it was because I did not see what the person I targeted did, it was because I saw who targeted that person. I saw Jahudo target him, and I was Sirdan target him. And I was told neither performed a kill. I did not, however, target Jahudo. I saw him because he came to my target that night: You. Since I was not told what you did that night, I can't be sure of anything you did that night, just what they did to you. Sort of. Either way, you're wrong. Thank you, try again.

So you are saying you really think I did "re-direct" you just to cause arm waving hysterical mass confusion. Redirected you to a target that I myself would be targeting. On a Night I was otherwise planning to not kill anyone.

Lovely. I don't think there's a whole lot I can say to that.

SirD, I think it's on you. GW will hop on whenever you vote. If you are just so convinced that GW couldn't have killed anyone because our honorable mod. would just never have misled you so badly, then there's nothing else I can say.

Oh, nice job here. Sarcasm to try to debunk all things said against you, without actually arguing against them. Actually attacking the mod, saying that either the mod lied and I'm scum, or the mod told the truth, and you're scum. Yeah, that made a great defense. Thank you for giving me a great reason to vote you. I actually wasn't sure. Though Master Ruck did make a good argument, I said that I didn't completely trust him. I looked at the argument from a pro-town-MR view, and a scum-MR view, where he had been waiting to build a case against anyone, and saw you an easy target (due to it seeming like I was waiting for a chance to vote you, though it could be flipped to be said of him creating a case on me instead). I was taking it with a grain of salt, until your arguments against it got ridiculous.

[Axelrod]

So, you ended this post with a link to a page where, just a bit further down, I explained what happened that night, including the redirection that happened. You make it seem like I should have seen you kill Jahudo due to watching him. Too bad I attempted to target Sirdan, not Jahudo. When I did mention Jahudo in my post, it was because I did not see what the person I targeted did, it was because I saw who targeted that person. I saw Jahudo target him, and I was Sirdan target him. And I was told neither performed a kill. I did not, however, target Jahudo. I saw him because he came to my target that night: You. Since I was not told what you did that night, I can't be sure of anything you did that night, just what they did to you. Sort of. Either way, you're wrong. Thank you, try again.

I was mis-remembering who SirD "redirected" you to on the Night in question. It wasn't Jahudo, it was ME. You were "successfully" redirected to ME. My ultimate point remains the same. If SirD's ability was working as advertised, then YOU should have heard SOMETHING to do with me. I targeted Jahudo (with a Cop scan). Jahudo died. SirD targeted me. Regardless if you think I'm town or scum, you ought to have heard something to do with ME. But you didn't, yes? You said you heard something to do with Jahudo and SirD.

So, what is going on there? Is the Mod lying? This is what I keep saying and no one is hearing. People are saying "well, the Mod. wouldn't 'lie' to SirD, so he must have redirected GW like he said, and if he redirected GW like he said, and the person he redirected GW to didn't die, well, then GW couldn't have killed anyone.

But what GW

himself

said doesn't fit with that. Something else

must

be at play here. And that is not me trying to "confuse" anyone. It's exactly the truth.

Oh, nice job here. Sarcasm to try to debunk all things said against you, without actually arguing against them. Actually attacking the mod, saying that either the mod lied and I'm scum, or the mod told the truth, and you're scum. Yeah, that made a great defense. Thank you for giving me a great reason to vote you. I actually wasn't sure. Though Master Ruck did make a good argument, I said that I didn't completely trust him. I looked at the argument from a pro-town-MR view, and a scum-MR view, where he had been waiting to build a case against anyone, and saw you an easy target (due to it seeming like I was waiting for a chance to vote you, though it could be flipped to be said of him creating a case on me instead). I was taking it with a grain of salt, until your arguments against it got ridiculous.

I have totally argued against "all the things said against me." You can't point out where I haven't, because I have. At some length. So nice strawman there.

It's annoying to be accused of doing something stupid, and then, when I point out that said action would be stupid, get the response "well, maybe that's exactly why you did it!

Because

it was stupid! To cause confusion!" Very much the WIFOM scenario which is something I kind of detest. For lots of reasons, but mainly because I actually think people act with better reasons than that most of the time - if they are the type to think about what they are doing at all. And the WIFOM thing actually gets used MORE by scum to attack people than townies who are defending themselves.

And I fail to see, GW, where you have said anything against Master Ruck pretty much all game. I see no evidence where you have been "suspicious" of him. No times you made a case or questioned one of his posts. I mean, I could probably come up with a scenario where MR could be the scum - he's not got anyone "watching" or "tracking" him on the Night Jahudo died, so theoretically he was free to be doing that kill - but I don't actually believe it based on the way he's been posting most of the game (until recently with some of these attacks. But I also have a knee-jerk reaction believing that anyone who says they think I might be scum must themselves be the scum.)

But for you to say you have been "suspicious" of him and uncertain up to now appears to be you just making stuff up to try and sound like you are being unbiased and reasonable, perhaps because you smell blood?

[Axelrod]

I missed this:

MR says he was redirected. You do not claim a redirect ability. Could you exactly state your hypothesis on what happened last night in a clear and concise way, axel, from your point of view (as in assuming you are town).

Based on the number of claimed abilities flying around, I think it has to be the case that the scum are allowed to use their killing ability as well as some other ability in the same Night. So, given that, what I assume happened was that GW re-directed MR onto himself (MR had a "watcher" ability which he had already revealed to MR, so there would be no risk of GW getting "caught" by him, and in any event, GW was planning on killing him.

GW targets MR. I Doc protect MR and target GW with the alret bypass. You tracked me. No death results. And that makes so much more sense than "Scum Axelrod redirected MR onto GW and did nothing else."

[GhostWriter]

Since I don't have time right now, I'll only do a post based on the stuff in 652, and not 651 (yet).

How does that make so much more sense? The purpose of you not killing last night, and instead redirecting + using an extra, rather pointless (at least, this far into the game it is) power, was to cause confusion, causing the town to mis-vote, allowing you to win during the night. This, as opposed to killing that night, which would leave 3, which would make it harder for you to win, as the chances of you dying with 3 alive is higher than those of you dying with 4 alive (+ confusion due to night activities).

All talk more whenever I get back.

[sirdanilot]

GW targets MR. I Doc protect MR and target GW with the alret bypass. You tracked me. No death results. And that makes so much more sense than "Scum Axelrod redirected MR onto GW and did nothing else."

both make sense. I am still undecided which of the two makes more sense

ew this is hard

[iLord]

The End (Day 6)

Vote Count the First

Axelrod (1): Master Ruck

Not Voting: Axelrod, Ghostwriter, Sirdanilot

With 4 alive, it's 3 to lynch.

[GhostWriter]

But what GW

himself

said doesn't fit with that.

How so?

But for you to say you have been "suspicious" of him and uncertain up to now appears to be you just making stuff up to try and sound like you are being unbiased and reasonable, perhaps because you smell blood?

First, I never used the word "suspicious". Stop throwing it around like I did. I said I wasn't completely trusting of him. I obviously am, since I've still yet to vote you. And I didn't make it up. You asked me, before this argument began, what did I think of the other 3 of you. Here was what I said:

Since I had a result on Sirdan of him not committing a kill on a night when the last mafia did, I've cleared him in my mind. That leaves you and Master left, and since I'm leaning towards him as town, it's pointing towards you, though I haven't, by any means, cleared Master.

I said that even though I was leaning towards him as town, I did not trust him to be cleared. At this point, assuming I were scum, why would appearing unbiased help me? I'd attack you, get you lynched, and then win it at night. There'd be no point in being passive.

So, given that, what I assume happened was that GW re-directed MR onto himself (MR had a "watcher" ability which he had already revealed to MR, so there would be no risk of GW getting "caught" by him, and in any event, GW was planning on killing him.

GW targets MR. I Doc protect MR and target GW with the alret bypass. You tracked me. No death results. And that makes so much more sense than "Scum Axelrod redirected MR onto GW and did nothing else."

Again, I must ask: How the hell is that more sensible? Not only do I redirect him for no reason, but I try to kill him? And you make it seem like I do this to not be caught by the watching ability of the person I'm trying to kill, who already trusted me, and told me exactly where his eyes would be? So I make it more difficult for myself by moving those eyes TO me, as opposed to AWAY from me, despite the fact that I know there's a doc power around (he told me you'd be aiming for Sirdan with it), and that I could redirect THAT to me, and kill MR instead? Oh, brilliant deduction. Makes sense to me. What makes it make even more sense, is that you make it seem like I'd aim for the one person who seemed to trust me the most, and leave myself with two people who both showed more signs of distrust towards me than MR. That'd be a stupid position to place myself in.

What DOES make more sense is for you, as scum, to try to redirect MR, causing confusion from both the lack of a kill, the unclaimed redirection (because unclaimed random redirecting screws with people), and the possibly seen second non-killing power you used. You see, had you been seen only using a power on me, you could have claimed to have been doc-ing me, and made a story to cover that. Had you only been seen on MR, you'd have stuck to just a doc-ing story on him. You used two abilities to cover more bases, and cause the maximum amount of confusion, so that 4 could go down to 3 in a lynch, leaving you to more easily win in the night. It's a safer route than trying to kill 1 of us, and hope you aren't chosen with 3 left. Especially when you can't kill me, probably the least trusted person at that time, because it'll make you more likely to die, and yet I have the ability to see what happens at night, meaning I either see someone get killed, or I see them not commit a kill, and either way, should my result get trusted, you get screwed.

You keep going back to the fact that you want us to believe there HAD to be a kill committed last night, but that would, in fact, be a bad idea for scum. We knew that when we No Voted yesterday, and so they knew it. And you may be right: scum may be able to use two moves. And no more than two. You may have used that second pointless move on me to simply be allowed to not perform a kill last night. Because I cannot see any pro-town reason to have used that ability on me, leaving me to only see it as you trying to confuse the town, or get out of using a kill. Or both.

[sirdanilot]

CLAIM:

I have got a one-shot doc power. It is unlikely, albeit not impossible, that there are two doc powers.

Still undecided but leaning towards Axel scum. However, my main issue with GW is his stupid theory about the test answers. Also xtoxm thought he was scum.

[GhostWriter]

Xtoxm was just pissy because I didn't answer his post.

Also, this:

Ghost, you are aware that submitting a wrong answer is a minus point, right?

Oops, I didn't know that either but it's right there in the rules. Each night Electra/I inserted answers to all 15 questions. I must've been lucky to get a power but now it makes sense that my power is a bottom rung of a series of powers.

I wasn't the only one to make the mistake of not realizing wrong answers hurt my score, and thus do something stupid.

[GhostWriter]

Xtoxm was just pissy because I didn't answer his

post

.

That should read "message".

[Master Ruck]

Actually, ghost, if I were to take a guess, I think sird is referring to your guessing some answers with that strange theory you had.

[GhostWriter]

I know. I wasn't using that to show that someone else forgot about that rule; I was using it to show that someone else had also done something foolish due to forgetting that rule. At least I didn't answer all of them. It was only, like, 4 or 5 that I tried that on, and then I started using the answers I got through cheating.

[Axelrod]

CLAIM:

I have got a one-shot doc power. It is unlikely, albeit not impossible, that there are two doc powers.

I don't understand why you would have an issue with two townies getting 1-shot Doc powers in a game like this. Do you think your 1-shot (which you might never even have gained) would be the only Doc power?

I assumed from the beginning there would be duplication of powers. In fact, I assumed early on that everyone who answered the same numbers of questions would get exactly the same powers. That appears to not have been the case, but clearly there's duplication. Not just the Doc powers, but you and MR have both claimed Watcher/Tracker powers, which have also been claimed by GW, and I had a Cop power that was also gained by MR. That completely ignores what all the other players in the game might have gained if they had lived.

But, it does raise again one of the issues I have with GW's claim, which is that it's different from everyone else's. Everyone else (at least it appears this way to me) has been gaining powers based on test answers. Get a power here, a power there - sometimes two powers in the same Night if you got a lot correct. But GW is different. He says he's got this "machine." He says it wasn't working correctly at first, but, supposedly, as he got more test answers right, he was able to fix his machine, and now he can both Watch and Track people in the same Night. All his powers are based around this machine. That's just feels wrong. It is not the same thing as everyone else.

Also, the thing about him giving out wrong test answers. The scummy part is not that he chose to guess at test answers. It's not that he (supposedly) came up with a theory for what the correct answers should be and guessed. It's that he then

traded

those answers around with other players

representing that they were correct

. When he knew full well he was just guessing. That's simply unbelievable to me that he would do that as town.

[GhostWriter]

Don't you dare.

[quote=GhostWriter]Second, I explained that I not only guessed, but that the list I looked at, to trade answers, did not show the answers I had guessed. I did not know they were still there. I'd been changing answers since the experiment answers had been entered, and I simply picked answers at random and gave them.[/quote]

I told you before. After I answered about 4 or 5 answers like this, on one night, I began to take the answers from the other tests and adding them in, without erasing my other answers. Since I picked at random, I didn't know those were the answers I picked, nor did I remember they were even there. I said that. I didn't "knew full well" a damn thing.[/quote]

[GhostWriter]

Oops. Gotta use the preview button more often...

EBWOP

.

Don't you dare.

Second, I explained that I not only guessed, but that the list I looked at, to trade answers, did not show the answers I had guessed. I did not know they were still there. I'd been changing answers since the experiment answers had been entered, and I simply picked answers at random and gave them.

I told you before. After I answered about 4 or 5 answers like this, on one night, I began to take the answers from the other tests and adding them in, without erasing my other answers. Since I picked at random, I didn't know those were the answers I picked, nor did I remember they were even there. I said that. I didn't "knew full well" a damn thing.

[Master Ruck]

But, it does raise again one of the issues I have with GW's claim, which is that it's different from everyone else's.

So? I'm actually thinking this may make GW look more town as I severely doubt the scum would take such a gambit and come up with a power so different to everyone else. On top of that, if he is telling the truth and he is scum, he would most certainly

not

let the town know of this incredible power as he would instead do what he could to keep it hidden and pass off just enough information.

[Axelrod]

So? I'm actually thinking this may make GW look more town as I severely doubt the scum would take such a gambit and come up with a power so different to everyone else. On top of that, if he is telling the truth and he is scum, he would most certainly

not

let the town know of this incredible power as he would instead do what he could to keep it hidden and pass off just enough information.

I think you have made your feeling clear. But maybe, just maybe you'll recognize you are being inconsistent here in order to come to the conclusion you already want to. I mean, you're agreeing that, yes, it does appear to be different from everyone else, but then flipping it to try and make that a point in his

favor

saying "but why would he make up something so different if he was scum?" The unspoken statement here is "it makes no sense for scum to claim differently."

You can imagine how annoyed that makes me. I'm getting suspicion for a supposed series of Night actions that makes no sense, and when I point out that it makes no sense I get "but maybe that's

exactly

why you did it!"

Also, I rather suspect GW

hasn't

claimed the full extent of his powers to us. Not by a long shot. What do you mean "if he's telling the truth and is scum?" If he's scum he's probably not telling the truth -certainly not the full truth.

[sirdanilot]

We all need to have a clearer vision of this. Let's state all the night actions we know.
Night 3:
malthusis got killed
MR: cop scans DGB -> scum
DGB: cheated off GW (maybe nked malthusis since dgb is scum)
GW: targeted malthusis, heard DGB kill malthusis
Day 4:
(note: axel jumps on very early to vote DGB as scum, gw is next, but then axel unvotes)
dgb claims axel is scum
GW says that DGB cheated off him last night. this may confirm the theory that NKs are not special powers, but of course maybe dgb's scumpartner killed DGB.

Night 4:
jahudo got killed
sirdanilot: redirected gw to target axelrod
master ruck: jailed GW, but got redirected to an unknown person
axelrod: cop scanned jahudo
GW: heard sirdanilot and jahudo together, but tried to target axel
Night 5:
Doc protect malthusis
Axel: doc protect mr, 'supercheat' GW
GW: watches MR, axel targeted MR, MR targeted GW
sirdanilot: tracks axel: he targets MR and GW
MR: tried to watch sirdanilot but got redirected

The key part to winning this game is the part where MR watched me but got redirected, I think. One person who has targeted two people would be AxelRod. A redirection would come up as targeting two people.

Would it be implausible to assume AxelRod redirected Master Ruck to GW? But why did he not kill?

Also, another issue.

AXELROD: WHAT DID YOU DO NIGHT 3. FULL CLAIM PLEASE

[Axelrod]

AXELROD: WHAT DID YOU DO NIGHT 3. FULL CLAIM PLEASE

I am pretty certain that Night 3 I attempted to "Cheat" off of Jahudo. It was unsuccessful (I was told he covered his answers too well).

That was actually another reason why I wanted to Investigate him.

[Master Ruck]

Why, then, do you wait until now to reveal that? You told me why you were going to scan Jahudo so why not give your full reasoning? We basically trusted each other in full so it would have made more sense for you to explain this as well instead of saving it until now to tack on as another reason. I don't buy that one bit.

[sirdanilot]

let's hear it axelrod

[Axelrod]

I am watching the NCAA tournament which means I'm basically not doing anything else in my life right now. Sorry for being slow to post.

Why, then, do you wait until now to reveal that? You told me why you were going to scan Jahudo so why not give your full reasoning? We basically trusted each other in full so it would have made more sense for you to explain this as well instead of saving it until now to tack on as another reason. I don't buy that one bit.

You have got the days wrong MR, I attempted to cheat off Jahudo on

Night 3

, not Night 4. Night 4 is the Night I used the Cop ability.

Seriously, it's like you are just going to attack every single post I make now and have completely lost all objectivity.

[Master Ruck]

I know full well you claimed to scan Jahudo N4. You even gave me reasons as to why you wanted to scan him. My question, if you chose not to deliberately misinterpret it, is why you did not also state that as one of your reasons when, if true, should clearly have existed at the time instead of just now.

[Axelrod]

I know full well you claimed to scan Jahudo N4. You even gave me reasons as to why you wanted to scan him. My question, if you chose not to deliberately misinterpret it, is why you did not also state that as one of your reasons when, if true, should clearly have existed at the time instead of just now.

We did not have any kind of discussion about "why" I was going to inspect Jahudo, as you are fully well aware. I said that I was going to do it - because I was still feeling he might be scum, and I thought that coupled with you "Jailing" GW should have had all our bases covered - to which you replied "good call."

The fact that I was unable to cheat off of him the Night before was completely irrelevant at that point. It's not something I could have really used to attack him, because (1) townies can set alerts; (2) Jahudo in particular could claim to have set an alert on me because he was actively expressing suspicion anyway. It was something that made

me

more suspicious, but wouldn't mean anything for anyone else.

I wasn't trying to hide it though. It just didn't come up. Which you know.

Again, I might point out what would be the purpose exactly of me lying about this - especially when, as scum, I could just say I sat on my bumm and did nothing - but that doesn't seem to get me anywhere, does it?

[sirdanilot]

The key part to winning this game is the part where MR watched me but got redirected, I think. One person who has targeted two people would be AxelRod. A redirection would come up as targeting two people.

Would it be implausible to assume AxelRod redirected Master Ruck to GW? But why did he not kill?

What is more likely. Axelrod redirecting mr to gw and not killing, and GW watching/tracking MR successfully, or GW trying to kill MR, axelrod protecting him and axelrod using his special power on gw?
Let's use occam's razor guys.