Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over

[Zilla]

I'm not cop-immune to my knowledge. I'd like to hear SL's defense before I comment on that case.

I think we can extract that the mafia killed goat and someone else killed Ting from the nightpost, as Goat's body was essentially remarked as being vengeance for Qwints.

[mykonian]

so, basically, you are voting spring for lurking and not reading the thread properly?

[GIEFF]

Zilla has climbed the scum-charts, too.

I would very much like to hear qwints' response to my question about the similarities between his only two votes in this game.

* B_B wagon grows, qwints hops on at L-4.
* Zilla wagon grows, qwints says "this seems more about abrasiveness than scumminess." B_B was just as abrasive as Zilla; where was this excuse then?
* Panzer wagon grows, qwints hops on at L-4.



Very little content from qwints, just about no original points raised, he doesn't appear interested in scumhunting, and he loves jumping on building wagons, late enough to be sure they're going somewhere, and early enough to avoid the icky responsibility that comes from hammering or putting someone at L-1. Niiiiiice and comfy, those extra votes at L-4.

And as Panzer is now virtually cleared due to no CC and the framer, it makes B_B a lot more likely to be town, as qwints hopped on B_B's wagon in a very similar way.

Yet he met Zilla's wagon with firm resistance. This alone wouldn't necessarily be scummy, but couple it with the fact that he was so willing to hop on bandwagons for whatever reason, it looks very fishy.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 97#1515997

See above post for links to context.


Also, I initially was scared off from the Zilla-wagon when Panzer and Dourgrim jumped on. Now that Panzer is 95% town, this is not as much an issue.


Post 608: I show qwints defending Zilla.


Post 653: Zilla defends qwints.

[GIEFF]

Even if Panzer is the real cop, lynching him wouldn't be all that horrible, because I assume the setup is designed to avoid the "follow-the-cop syndrome". So mafia either has a roleblocker, we don't have a protection role, or something else is going on to ensure that once a cop claims, he is not all that useful to the town. If he is the real cop, now that he is outed, he's likely no more valuable than a vanilla townie.

That's some of the dumbest logic I've ever heard.

I targetted Zilla. I got no result I was scared off by something before I found her. So I was either blocked or she's immune.

That doesn't look a whole lot more valuable than a vanilla townie to me.

How far are you in your re-read, Sens?

[PJ.]

Vote:Springlullaby

It's about time she gets some votes. She's been escummy all game.

[GIEFF]

Do you have more flavor for us, Panzer? I am not ready to call you 100% cleared yet.

[GIEFF]

If it's an SK, I have to wonder if that's Mykonian (again, he was the first to introduce the idea. I've found that people like to mention their own roles.) It could be a vig though.

I agree with this, that people like to mention their own roles. I would not lynch mykonian because of this, but I think this is one more minor thing to add to mykonian's list of scumminess.

However, I think the ting =) kill looks like a good vig-kill, as ting had not posted in the thread for a VERY long time, and probably likely to be replaced soon anyway. It's hard to say whether the second kill was vig or SK, and I don't think we should spend a lot of time discussing it. Let's find scummy people and lynch them - we did a good job of that yesterday.

[Zilla]

On qwints:

He promised a read on Mykonian and failed to deliver, he promised a rereading of [your] misrepresentations and failed to deliver, and he generally doesn't have much input in the thread.

He replaced MacavityLock who argued to try hunting the SK instead of the mafia, and I find that highly suspect, for reasons we've been over many times before. In fact, he seems to be aware of the problem this causes, reading his third post, and tries to backpedal from that stance, though his second post pretty much hinges on Panzer arguing to lynch mafia over SK. Still, a possible misunderstanding.

Neither of them contributed much.

Points I feel are invalid:

It is also odd that you say mykonian and Panzer are the scummiest, yet you hop on the B_B wagon without presenting any original reasons, probably because it looks like an easy lynch.

Many developments and sparse activity make for the kind of play he's using, town or scum, and if he's town, it's an easy frame job for scum to pull off. When you read the post in the context of the situation, it's far less scummy, aside from his forgetting about Mykonian/Panzer.

In fact, almost all of your case on him is based on his inactivity and playstyle, which would be fixed with more contribution. Apply pressure might get him to post more, so we can actually have a valid opinon of him. Including MacavityLock, that position has contributed a total of 14 real posts (one of Macavity's is V/LA announcement, one is confirm, one of qwints' is an EBWOP, one is introduction, one is a "sorry, will read later.")

Speaking of "sorry, will read later." The last time we actually heard anything of importance from SpringLulliby was here. post 215, page

NINE

.

This is defense of Qwints? He didn't have much at all to go on, and I really did think your case on his views vis-a-vis Mykonian/Panzer and voting Birthday didn't take time into account between his posts.

Also, I'm pretty sure the end of day 1 shows that I was suspicious of Qwints, since I had him at a higher priority than Birthday. It might be interesting to note how difficult it was to get Birthday to switch to Qwints, and I constantly had to point out how he was saying Qwints was scummy but not voting him.

I wouldn't be so hasty to clear BB just because Qwints flipped scum. I'm going to check when Qwints voting BB, whether he actually wanted to lynch him or if he was putting a safe vote in for distancing...

[Zilla]

He was vote 4 out of 7. L-3 is kind of an ambiguous limbo to put your vote in, somewhere between distancing and lynching. He also places the vote during a time quite a ways after anyone else had put the BB vote on. From this approach, I'd say it's more likely he's intending to lynch BB, and intended his vote to direct attention toward BB more, rather than distancing.

[GIEFF]

What do you mean it might be interesting to note? If you have a case to make on BB, then make it.

Zilla, you did distance from qwints later in the day, but early on you two were VERY buddying, in both directions.

Post 631

I actually think putting pressure on him may be a good idea, though he strikes me more as an uninvested player more than anything, a perfect scapegoat for ambitious scum. The problem is that he hasn't contributed much to judge it on. People make mistakes, but it's all about the intent and cause of those mistakes, and, again, I haven't heard enough from him to see whether his intent is pro- or anti-town.

Very wishy-washy. Leaving yourself open to both outcomes (qwints-is-town and qwints-isscum), depending on which way the town goes.

In this post, you also say that some of my points are "quite valid."


Post 653:

On qwints:

He promised a read on Mykonian and failed to deliver, he promised a rereading of [your] misrepresentations and failed to deliver, and he generally doesn't have much input in the thread.

He replaced MacavityLock who argued to try hunting the SK instead of the mafia, and I find that highly suspect, for reasons we've been over many times before. In fact, he seems to be aware of the problem this causes, reading his third post, and tries to backpedal from that stance, though his second post pretty much hinges on Panzer arguing to lynch mafia over SK.

Still, a possible misunderstanding.

Again leaving yourself a town-out.

Many developments and sparse activity make for the kind of play he's using, town or scum, and if he's town, it's an easy frame job for scum to pull off. When you read the post in the context of the situation, it's far less scummy, aside from his forgetting about Mykonian/Panzer.

In fact, almost all of your case on him is based on his inactivity and playstyle, which would be fixed with more contribution. Apply pressure might get him to post more, so we can actually have a valid opinon of him. Including MacavityLock, that position has contributed a total of 14 real posts (one of Macavity's is V/LA announcement, one is confirm, one of qwints' is an EBWOP, one is introduction, one is a "sorry, will read later.")

And this is the defense. You say votes should be pressure votes so we can "actually have a valid opinion of him." I thought you said some points were quite valid?

Post 657

GIEFF: why do you think Qwints is a lynch candidate while Dour is not? Aside from your vote, neither have any votes on them.

Trying to get attention off qwints, or trying to get me to re-think my position of qwints as a lynch-candidate.


And then you started backing off of your defense. In 864 and 906, you started to question qwints, and said you would be willing to lynch him. And in post 1002, you voted him, with just one vote on him at the time.


And qwints was incredibly defensive of you, jumping quickly onto panzer and B_B's wagons, while avoiding yours, and even arguing against it.

[mykonian]

I agree with this, that people like to mention their own roles. I would not lynch mykonian because of this, but I think this is one more minor thing to add to mykonian's list of scumminess.

I'm insulted. Really, it would have been an obvious breadcrumb: if I wanted you to know, something that I don't want as SK. Thats why it is unlikely that I'm the SK. Although you might need to know me better before you believe that.

[GIEFF]

Nobody is claiming it is intentional, mykonian. And it's not a major point either way.

[Zilla]

Yeah, obviously only town people wouldn't question Qwints scumminess.

[Zilla]

Vote:Springlullaby

It's about time she gets some votes. She's been escummy all game.

Another generalization? links plz.

[GIEFF]

Yeah, obviously only town people wouldn't question Qwints scumminess.

They would not do so in such a wishy-washy way, first claiming that some points are valid, and then claiming that no points are actually valid because qwints has been lurking.

[Zilla]

To be more verbose, he didn't have much input on the game. I said this then. That's the whole point, something you're missing. Apparently, scum can't be undecided about someone who has little input, and town would consider him scum for not listening to flawed arguments.

You're again nitpicking over semantics. There was a valid line of reasoning on Qwints, however, I was saying there wasn't enough information for that to be a valid reason for voting him. I also said he needed pressure to contribute more, that there wasn't enough to go on.

In short, it was valid to suspect him, it was invalid to assume he was scum.

[Zilla]

Birthday, why so hesitant to vote Qwints?

[GIEFF]

Did you notice qwints jumping on Panzer and B_B's wagons, but not jumping on yours? Did you think it was odd at the time? Do you think it's odd now?

[Beyond_Birthday]

He was vote 4 out of 7. L-3 is kind of an ambiguous limbo to put your vote in, somewhere between distancing and lynching. He also places the vote during a time quite a ways after anyone else had put the BB vote on. From this approach, I'd say it's more likely he's intending to lynch BB, and intended his vote to direct attention toward BB more, rather than distancing.

Yet this also follows my theory that scum are likely to be fourth vote. Although, I don't think this is actually previously stated in this game so just a meaningless statement.

I was hesitant to vote Qwints because it was a GIEFF suggested wagon, who I did not trust that much. I like him much better today, and I think that we made a great choice yesterday. Hm... the fact that there was a framer and a potential scum role blocker. This may be a stretch, but I really think that a pro town role blocker would definitely leave the "cop" alone for at least the first night. It doesn't necessarily reflect badly on whoever Panz investigated because rber may or may not be who Panzer's target. SO, that is null. What isn't null is GIEFF's point on the Qwint's delay on voting Zilla. So:

Vote Zilla

I don't follow the attack on Spring much. Though, there is the possible derailing attack, I find the Zilla point to be stronger.

I don't think I missed anything...

[Zilla]

I don't think I missed anything...

Birthday, why so hesitant to vote Qwints?

Irony.

Did you notice qwints jumping on Panzer and B_B's wagons, but not jumping on yours? Did you think it was odd at the time? Do you think it's odd now?

I suspected Panzer and BB at the time, and obviously didn't suspect myself. I found the arguments against me flawed, so it seemed more like he just understood the game the same way I did. Now, yes, it's interesting that he spared me, and I'm guessing he didn't expect me to turn on him later for it.

BB is voting me because scum protected me in game, which contradicts his stance on me earlier where I must have been scum for defending a townie.

[GIEFF]

BB is voting me because scum protected me in game, which contradicts his stance on me earlier where I must have been scum for defending a townie.

Which earlier stance? Can you provide a link to the post?

[Zilla]

However, I do disagree that he is brushing aside Zilla's defense of me as a mere petty grudge. I'm sorry, but Zilla has been far too adamant about defending me, as though she KNOWS my role. As a result, I am picking this up as a scum defending a townie situation which also frees Zilla from saying too much on the thread except commenting only on current game while claiming ignorance as a defense.

From here. He's said this many times.

A more direct contradiction:

Okay, let's see what we have:

Goatrevolts's super long post: I find the general point agrees with the thoughts I have had on Zilla since she started defending me (or about that time). I find it interesting that he believe that if Zilla is scum that I still could be. Personally, this seems flawed as a thought process, but I'm not really sure. (I know I am not scum, and therefore can conclude Zilla is scum without considering my own alignment as being relevant.) Obviously, if Zill is actually town, this is irrelevant and I could still just as easily be scum (if not more so), but if scum, I think that the suspicion on me should be decreased greatly. (By greatly, I mean even halved, which if Goat's numbers make any sense, is about 10% higher than the rest of town anyway.)

from here.

It's strange to think this kind of logic for incriminating me is now being ignored to also incriminate me.

[PJ.]

I dislike post 1282.

And I'm not going through 50 pages to prove something so obvious.

Unvote: Vote:Zilla

She bussed Qwints andhad me blocked.

[GIEFF]

I dislike post 1282.

And I'm not going through 50 pages to prove something so obvious.

Unvote: Vote:Zilla

She bussed Qwints andhad me blocked.

I don't get it. You said SL has been scummy all game, and refuse to provide links, because it's so obvious? The last time you mentioned springlullaby was page 10.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I don't think I missed anything...

Birthday, why so hesitant to vote Qwints?

Irony.

Where?

Did you notice qwints jumping on Panzer and B_B's wagons, but not jumping on yours? Did you think it was odd at the time? Do you think it's odd now?

I suspected Panzer and BB at the time, and obviously didn't suspect myself. I found the arguments against me flawed, so it seemed more like he just understood the game the same way I did. Now, yes, it's interesting that he spared me, and I'm guessing he didn't expect me to turn on him later for it.

BB is voting me because scum protected me in game, which contradicts his stance on me earlier where I must have been scum for defending a townie.

I am with the cop on this one, and I still think that Zilla is scum. The fun part is her completely pathetic attack on me!

Vote Zilla

I advocate this lynch.