Mini 763 - Carnival Mafia - Game Over

[ChiefSkye4]

Vote TCold

, because I hate colds.

[ChiefSkye4]

The First Votecount

ChiefSkye4 ~ 0
Datadanne ~ 1

(WeyounsLastClone)

Debonair Danny DiPietro ~ 1

(VP Baltar)

Kairyuu ~ 1

(Debonair Danny DiPietro)

lixyl ~ 1

(ortolan)

Nocmen ~ 0
ortolan ~ 1

(Kairyuu)

Shinnen_no_Me ~ 1

(TCold)

TCold ~ 1

(ChiefSkye4)

VP Baltar ~ 1

(Shinnen_no_Me)

WeyounsLastClone ~ 0

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

I know it's odd to point out that I have a vote, but... I do.

Vote: ChiefSkye4

Numbers in username are a big no.

He's not unvoted, or anything, so just for the sake of accuracy, I do have a vote on me

MOD EDIT:

Thanks. Trust me, I'm not infallible by any means. It's okay to point out mistakes. The votecount has been changed to reflect this. ~SP

[ChiefSkye4]

In the same vein as Kairyuu,

unvote

.

Just to contribute my thoughts, here goes:

I do agree that prolonging random stages is not a desirable thing to do, but the initial stage itself is important to the game. Although, I don't really think that Datadanne is consciously making an attempt at prolonging said stage, because it doesn't seem forced. It's probably just their personality type, and I don't think that it's near enough ground to lynch or vote.

And, on the other side of this argument, I don't think that Kairyuu or any of the other Datadanne instigators are acting particularly scummy either, just taking him a little too seriously.

Since it's only the first day or two of playing, accusing anyone of lurking is a bit farfetched at the moment, but I think that would be the easiest thing for scum to do in this situation.

So, to prevent that, I request that everyone weigh in (if you haven't already) on the Datadanne situation and your views on random voting. Let's get this ball

really

rolling, peeps. :p

[ChiefSkye4]

I do agree that prolonging random stages is not a desirable thing to do, but the initial stage itself is important to the game. Although, I don't really think that Datadanne is consciously making an attempt at prolonging said stage, because it doesn't seem forced. It's probably just their personality type, and I don't think that it's near enough ground to lynch or vote.

The above is noted. It looks like you are making excuses for his actions, which may be scum worried about a buddy beginning to come under fire.

To tell the truth, I made the connection because I have many friends who think "random spew" is a sense of humor. And do you disagree? Do you think his randomness is forced?

P.S. If that's the logic you're using, I made excuses for you, and WLC also lol.

[ChiefSkye4]

meh.

Also, sounds like you are trying to direct the discussion towards Data while sort of playing both sides of the argument until town form an opinion.

Frankly, he is the main topic of discussion at the moment, and a rather important one too, seeing as he has the most votes of us all (and the only serious ones too).

And what you might think of as playing both sides is just me injecting my thoughts in, because even though I wasn't directly involved, I thought I'd contribute, rather than sit back until I was addressed.

No. Do you think randomness needs to be forced in order to have it unduly extend the random stage, on purpose or otherwise?

No. I agree with you on the point that unneccessarily extending the random stage through, well, randomness. But my view is that it doesn't come from a scummy place.

How so? For Datadanne you provided a possible reason why he was not joining in the beginnings of discussion, giving him an excuse to possibly cling to. For myself and WLC you simply said that you didn't find us scummy for attacking Data, and provided your subjective reasoning for why you think that way. There is a rather important difference.

Isn't my theory on Datadanne also subjective reasoning? I just needed more words to express it for him, when I could concisely give my thoughts on you and WLC. It's really all a matter of number of words and word choice.

[ChiefSkye4]

And I have no problem with Chief trying to get discussion going on Datadanne. It seems justified, I agree with his statement that it's always good to get as many players commenting and voicing their opinions on as many events that occur. At this point, it means less than in the future though, where events like that may occur as a means of distracting our attention.

...

I will not give up a hunch I have because someone trys to get us talking about something else, like the way Chief wants us to talk about Datadanne.
I'm very curious at the connections that seem to be forming, especially centered around Chief.

So, I pose a drastic action early on here:

Vote: ChiefSkye4

You first say you have no problem with me stimulating discussion on Datadanne, then you vote me for it? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Just wondering, what do you mean by "...someone tries to get us talking about something else, like the way Chief wants us to talk about Datadanne..."? Am I missing something, or is he, essentially, the only person (besides myself, as of late), we were having a serious discussion about? I didn't change the subject to or from him, I just put in my two cents on

the [then] current subject

.

[ChiefSkye4]

I do agree that prolonging random stages is not a desirable thing to do, but the initial stage itself is important to the game. Although, I don't really think that Datadanne is consciously making an attempt at prolonging said stage, because it doesn't seem forced. It's probably just their personality type, and I don't think that it's near enough ground to lynch or vote.

And, on the other side of this argument, I don't think that Kairyuu or any of the other Datadanne instigators are acting particularly scummy either, just taking him a little too seriously.

I don't see datadanne's pointless comments in essentially the RVS as "rather important" (reference 'meh'). What is more important is you agreeing that Datadanne isn't doing anything really scummy and also saying that his attackers also are not scummy. Furthermore, you encourage the rest of the players to comment on this nonsense...ie you're playing both sides and spurring on what i see as a pointless discussion. Is that more clear?

I wasn't saying that specifically Datadanne's posts were important or helpful at all. In fact, I don't think they were, but for showing his character/personality.

You left out the second-to-last part of my post, which then explains my call for opinions.

Since it's only the first day or two of playing, accusing anyone of lurking is a bit farfetched at the moment, but I think that would be the easiest thing for scum to do in this situation.

So, to prevent that

, I request that everyone weigh in (if you haven't already) on the Datadanne situation and your views on random voting. Let's get this ball really rolling, peeps. :p

I

did

, as you pointed out, say that I thought neither Datadanne or Kairyuu (and related parties) were scummy. But those aren't the only two parties in the game.

I wanted (and still do want) to hear from the other players. Since Datadanne was the major topic of discussion at the time, I chose that to try and get some feedback on, but I'd love to hear anything from the others, on this current situation involving myself, on Datadanne, on anything. Since only about 4 of us out of 11 are contributing, or saying anything at all, rather, I feel that our viewpoints are limitted, and that we're likely to get stuck in a rut.

[ChiefSkye4]

I think you're not realizing that very little time has occured since the start of this game and now. You're assuming that no one else is going to post without being prompted to. What about people going away for weekends? Ones that don't necessarily check MS every day?

It's way too early IMO to go after players for not posting. Say, Tuesday/Wednesday, maybe, but not yet.

Since it's only the first day or two of playing, accusing anyone of lurking is a bit farfetched at the moment

Yeah, I agree, I was just explaining my post.

[ChiefSkye4]

Get reasons in this game to vote for him.

No, because then it wouldn't be a "random" lynch, it would be the same semi-informed decision that's not advantageous in finding scum.

I feel like this whole argument on a mathmatical level, makes sense. But when it comes to good sense, it's ridiculous. It's like saying "Ok, I'm gonna shoot this gun blindly into pure darkness, rather than to have any level of light at all." This is a Mafia game. The whole point is to be investigative. The point would be moot if we made blind shots for every lynch.

Sorry, but I really don't like the way your approaching to this game. You are just supporting a lynch on Dd for the sake of a random lynch, just because of the meta. That is a really scum thing to do, you know?

No it's not. In fact if the meta is correct then I'm doing the town thing to do and everyone who insists on stumbling blindly into a lynch is inadvertently helping scum.

You don't think random voting is stumbling blindly? I've heard your math, but common sense?

Really

?

I'm not encouraging a bandwagon on datadanne, I'm encouraging he be lynched without a bandwagon because a datadanne bandwagon will provide no information and that we spend the rest of the day on more productive topics of discussion.

Well, in my opinion, this sounds like scum distracting us from his scumbuddy. I do agree that we need to give a bit of a rest on Datadanne, yeah, but not to totally let him off the hook, and write off that any further prodding/investigation would "provide no more information."

[ChiefSkye4]

Well, in my opinion, this sounds like scum distracting us from his scumbuddy. I do agree that we need to give a bit of a rest on Datadanne, yeah, but not to totally let him off the hook, and write off that any further prodding/investigation would "provide no more information."

You know how silly this sounds? I've spent the last five posts or so advocating a datadanne lynch, I still advocate lynching datadanne. To suggest that I'm distancing from the guy I've constructed my entire argument around lynching is borderline hysterical.

Admittedly, the choice of the word "distracting" was incorrect of me. I meant to insinuate something to the effect of what WLC did in post 65:

possibly DD and DDD are both scum and with DDD running DD's lynch might clear DDD in the long run. But that second theory is a bit farfetched for now.

I apologize for my mistake in word choice. Anyway...

So basically, using the same logic you are, you're going and pushing a policy lynch on Datadanne for reasons which could be applied to any other players. So why not go and "policy lynch" you? What about Chief? Myself? The others?

On the most basic level if the lynch is truly random (irrelevant of postings in this particular game) then the odds of hitting scum are the same and so anyone could be substituted in. However, despite raising the percentage of hitting scum there remains a significant chance of hitting a townie. Hence why Datadanne was chosen, in the case that the random lynch does fail the town has lost it's least useful asset.

Out of curiosity, doesn't this sort of take the "random" out of the situation? In other words, "it's random on the basis of his bad playing"?

[ChiefSkye4]

ChiefSkye, why no vote?

I want to see DDD's response to the evidence, and I'll vote (or not) depending on his response.

But in the meantime, though,

FoS DDD

.

[ChiefSkye4]

Out of curiosity, doesn't this sort of take the "random" out of the situation? In other words, "it's random on the basis of his bad playing"?

Perhaps random isn't the word I wanted, but instead pre-determined. It could be random, but as long as the lynch is pre-determined and not swayed by the contents of the game then the random assignment of roles is enough to make the math work.

I find that my response to that has already been posted.

The plan you are presenting about us lynching data while still having some sort of side discussion, again, does not make much sense to me. So, you are saying that we continue to look for someone scummy, narrow it down...and then let them live? How does this make sense? If someone acts scummy, you lynch them. If data ends up being the scummiest player at the end of Day 1, then by all means lets get out the rope, but we can't possibly know that until we get to that point. Plus, I think the scum would be much less likely to make errors if they knew 100% for sure that they weren't going to be killed today.

SO DDD, essentially you are saying "Let's not play mafia. Instead, let's turn the game into the random bullshit that many critics call the game, because that way we don't have to worry about competing with the scum, only the odds." Sorry, but that is just stupid, and there is no way I will ever go along with that.

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

[ChiefSkye4]

Mafia is not a game of statistics past the balancing done by the mod. It is about numbers, but only the ones that allow the town to win.

Pure win.

[ChiefSkye4]

Since Datadanne was the major topic of discussion at the time, I chose that to try and get some feedback on, but I'd love to hear anything from the others, on this current situation involving myself, on Datadanne, on anything. Since only about 4 of us out of 11 are contributing, or saying anything at all, rather, I feel that our viewpoints are limitted, and that we're likely to get stuck in a rut.

What do you think other people are likely to say about Datadanne? Why do you feel the need to prompt general discussion, which is assumed to be required in mafia anyhow?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by your first question, sorry. And as for your second question, I was basically urging passive players to get involved with a direct question. When I was n00b (and I still am a bit lol), I didn't really post or get involved unless asked a question directly. The question was just an attempt to get the post-potatoes off the couch.

Well, in my opinion, this sounds like scum distracting us from his scumbuddy. I do agree that we need to give a bit of a rest on Datadanne, yeah, but not to totally let him off the hook, and write off that any further prodding/investigation would "provide no more information."

Wait, what is he on the hook for? Why is he scummy? And why were you defending him earlier? And how is DDD likely to be his scumbuddy if he's defending him?

Datadanne was the main topic of discussion (and candidate for lynch) at that stage in the game. For DDD to suggest just to, essentially, "drop it" is suspicious and is no help to town. As for your last question, you answer this yourself:

...possibly busing. If he happens to die and you're [DDD] his scumbuddy you would (had we not taken this into account) look very townie for the rest of the game.

For your question about my previous defense (if you'd like to call it that) of Datadanne, I was initially just putting my two cents in (which included that I didn't think Datadanne was particularly scummy) and that sparked a discussion over my intentions, where I defended my beliefs. In the post that you quoted, I meant for the reader to infer that Datadanne's actions and posts weren't scummy standing on their own, but with DDD's urging us to drop him as a topic of discussion rather entirely, made them look scummier in the light of a possible partnership.

My take on VP's possible slip is this- It's suspicious to a degree, but nothing that's getting my alarm bells going. I wouldn't have even noticed it if it hadn't been pointed out. But maybe that's just me being unobservant.

My current take on Datadanne- Wow. Just wow. Useless. Please post something, like, meaningful. Or ask for a replacement. Nao. Lol.

Unvote

. For now, anyway.

[ChiefSkye4]

Furthermore, he basically said: "Let's discuss x. I don't think x means anything at all," which is, to put it mildly, odd.

"I don't think x means anything at all" isn't true. I said that I didn't think he was particularly scummy, and that doesn't mean that no information could be gleaned from the posts.

The real reason this bugs me is that it is such an odd thing to worry about so early in the game. If we were twenty days in and the game was stalling then I could understand the preoccupation with lurkers.

I would hardly call it a preoccupation, and have you ever heard the saying "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"? The past games I've played in were largely unsuccessful and unrewarding because of the lurking and abandoning of the game. I wasn't calling anyone out, or requesting prods, just an urge to start participating.

And for further reference, I'm a girl

he seems to need a justification for everything in order to preempt anyone calling him out on it.

I like to play transparently, and clearly. Giving my motives for what otherwise could be construed as possibly questionable actions is another one of those "prevention/cure" things. Explain now, in my post, I don't have to repeat myself a dozen times later.

Then we have opportunistic. DDD is such an easy easy vote. Kairyuu I can understand, Kairyuu is Kairyuu, he's like vollkan used to be, always focuses on small details, gets bogged down and a little bit tunnely. In brief, I understand. But here, this is just blatant wagoning.

Well, in my opinion, this sounds like scum distracting us from his scumbuddy. I do agree that we need to give a bit of a rest on Datadanne, yeah, but not to totally let him off the hook, and write off that any further prodding/investigation would "provide no more information."

Datadanne was the main topic of discussion (and candidate for lynch) at that stage in the game. For DDD to suggest just to, essentially, "drop it" is suspicious and is no help to town.

If I understand correctly, he is voting DDD because he believes that DDD was shifting the topic away from Datadanne. Yet he agrees more or less that we need o move away from Datadanne.

Opportunistic? Really? I had suspicions about him. He did scummy things. And what am I supposed to do? "Oh, well, since he's an 'easy vote', I'm gonna ignore my intuition and not vote him." Not quite the intelligent thing to do.

Also for the perceived wishy-washyness of my words about Datadanne, note that there is a stark difference between completely writing him off as "let's just drop him, there's no need for further investigation" (as DDD suggested) and "keeping him in mind". I was suggesting a happy medium, where he's on the backburner of the conversation, but not completely thrown off the grill.

the way he FoSses before voting makes me cringe - I hate it when people give their votes huge buildup in this way. If you think he is scummy, why don't you vote him?

I was asked by VP why I hadn't voted yet, and I responded:

I want to see DDD's response to the evidence...

I wanted to give DDD a chance to respond and make a proper defense before I add my vote. As for the FoSing, I wasn't trying to "give my vote a huge buildup", just showing my then-current views and suspicions. That's what an FoS is for, no?

To summarise, because this case is massively disjointed: I get the feeling, over and over, that Skye is trying to avoid attention.

Avoiding attention? Haha, there are a lot of things you could say about me, but this isn't one of them. I've given my best effort to participate in every major conversation, even those not directly concerning myself.

He is, wherever possible, taking the position that will offend the least people.

I've gotten into disagreements with DDD, VP, Kairyuu, and Nocmen, that's just off of the top of my head. I'm not here to please people, and my views are not formed with that intent. I say what I think, and if

you

think that it's not "offensive enough", my apologies.

Even his wording makes me feel he is deliberately trying to give an impression rather than posting naturally. Some examples:

Just to contribute my thoughts, here goes:

Yeah, I agree, I was just explaining my post.

I wasn't saying that specifically Datadanne's posts were important or helpful at all.

I find that my response to that has already been posted.

Weasel wording, weasel wording, always weasel wording. I

feel

this. I was

just

doing that. I wasn't saying the other

specifically

. I agree

but

. And so on.

My word choice? I'm not quite sure what to say to that one, except for that's how I learned to speak lol. Not forced. I can show you some of my short stories, they have the exact same type of speech. I'll admit that my words can be a bit superfluous at times, but that's my "natural."

[ChiefSkye4]

I suppose I'll follow suit with Shanaba in responding in paragraph form. :p

As for my word choice, etc. I'll be more than happy to provide a writing sample for you. I checked the rules that the mod posted, and PMing about the game in any form is explicitly against the rules, so, what do you think is the most appropriate way to deliver this? Post it in the thread? And, aside from that, which writing would you like to see? I'm writing a book in my spare time, and I also have a short story (it resembles fanfiction, so it kinda needs a backstory to understand), various poems, and essays and research papers on different topics- which do you prefer?

Addressing your questions about my voting- No, I did not think that one post from DDD would clear up every suspicion, but yes, I do think that a vote is that big of a deal, it put him at L-1. I don't really like to throw around my vote, and maybe that's just my personal "thing". And in reference to my FoSing, sure, it serves no practical practical purpose, it's not going to lynch him, but I think of it as a barometer.

[ChiefSkye4]

How do you believe I've slipped up? I'm merely going based off of the flavor in the first post as a logical assumption as to how the roles in this game are distributed. The flavor sets up nicely for a single scum group, and I really think that VP slipped up with his own role trying to make odds and then correct them.

And then...

I actually think we should go straight to being explicit about this:

Nocmen, please read the last paragraph of your post 108 and tell me if you notice any inconsistencies between it and your role pm. No-one else answer this please.

I don't see how the two can be directly compared to each other, one is my role pm that states my win condition, and my last paragraph mentioned that I think there are two anti-town factions/persons, neither of which I'm a part of or am.

Seeing all this Nocmen controversy shtuff, I went back and reread his posts. Running the risk of repeating someone else's question (oh well lol), why did you say one scum group and then, two posts later, admit your "role PM" (questionable legitimacy) said two?

[ChiefSkye4]

How do you believe I've slipped up? I'm merely going based off of the flavor in the first post as a logical assumption as to how the roles in this game are distributed. The flavor sets up nicely for a single scum group, and I really think that VP slipped up with his own role trying to make odds and then correct them.

And then...

I actually think we should go straight to being explicit about this:

Nocmen, please read the last paragraph of your post 108 and tell me if you notice any inconsistencies between it and your role pm. No-one else answer this please.

I don't see how the two can be directly compared to each other, one is my role pm that states my win condition, and my last paragraph mentioned that I think there are two anti-town factions/persons, neither of which I'm a part of or am.

Seeing all this Nocmen controversy shtuff, I went back and reread his posts. Running the risk of repeating someone else's question (oh well lol), why did you say one scum group and then, two posts later, admit your "role PM" (questionable legitimacy) said two?

I did not say my role PM said anything about two factions. I said my paragraph did mention the possibility of two anti-town factions. I'm not seeing any mention of saying that my role PM has anything about two anti-town factions. As for why I mentioned nothing about my win condition, I've been under the assumption that paraphrasing/saying win condition has always been the equivalent of quoting mod PMs, because of how easy it is to make complications with confirming induviduals.

Ah, ok. Thanks for explaining.

[ChiefSkye4]

Let's just clarify, as this is an apparently bastard mod game and all, is everyone else's role pm consistent with what Kairyuu and I etc. have claimed? Speak now or forever hold your peace.

Yessir. Mine basically says to lynch all puppeteers and those in association with them.

[ChiefSkye4]

It's like if he was trying hard to merge as a townie.

Is that sentence about me? Or Nocmen?

[ChiefSkye4]

(Sorry about the double post)

@Shanaba- I have a link for you, or would you rather read my meta? Or both?

[ChiefSkye4]

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4305952/1

The understanding of the plot relies on prior knowledge, but, I doubt you're looking for the quality of my plotlines lol. If you want anymore samples, please let me know.

[ChiefSkye4]

Only L-3. Oh well.

unvote

and

vote: ChiefSkye4

Nocmen for tomorrow.

Reasons? Shanba's original argument? Or the win con?

[ChiefSkye4]

Win con for me. I agree with Shanba, but I don't like using other people's cases.

Er, not entirely fair (a great argument to use with you, I'm sure haha) since I can't really defend myself with the mod's virtual barring.

[ChiefSkye4]

You should probably claim, Chief.

WOAH.

Totally missed this post.

And, once again, sorry for the double-post.

I'm the Bearded Lady. I'm a little off, but not crazy. The entire freakshow has been taking hits lately with the Puppeteer stealing my fans. I don't have any special abilities.

[ChiefSkye4]

Heheheheheh. Sorry about that. I hate to have ruined the full potential of your first game as mod, SP. : / The utmost of my n00bish apologies go to you.

I swear to you all, I am not normally such an incredibly, rediculously, clueless ditz. Swear. I banged my head against the wall when I realized my mistake, I honestly think that's top 10 dumbest things I've ever done.

Again, my deepest apologies.

Very creative game, nonetheless though

[ChiefSkye4]

EBWOP: *ridiculously