Mini 738: The Town of Merrin - Game Over

[GIEFF]

Can somebody unvote Zilla to avoid an "accidental" hammer?

And I would still like to hear from Panzer about why he thinks spring has been scummy "all game" even though Panzer hasn't mentioned spring since page 10.

[SensFan]

Sorry I'm late, guys. Life's been busy.

mykonian is wrong about the slip again, and its odd that Panzer didn't get a result.

Vote: Zilla

, for now. I think this is the third vote.

[Dourgrim]

Ironic, isn't it?

[GIEFF]

Wow. You can't read the post directly above yours?

That's horrible.


I think she is scum, but we should have taken a LOT more time today.

HoS SensFan

.

[GIEFF]

If I die tonight, please do NOT continue under the assumption Panzer is cleared. His play has been extremely anti-town.

[GIEFF]

I apologize for the quadruple-post, but as Sensfan ended the day so abruptly, I want to get as much of my thoughts out there as possible. I never got the chance to talk more about mykonian today, so I will do so below:

mykonian was quite defensive of qwints, although again leaving the other side open in his typical wishy-washy fashion. mykonian says "on the other hand" a LOT, because he's trying to keep his opinions open on both sides, depending on who gets lynched. He wants to stop a qwints lynch, but not so strongly that it's obvious to point back to later, so every time he is defensive of qwints, he throws in a "but on the other hand."

More wishy-washiness towards qwints. He is "not against" a qwints claim, but he also doesn't want to get too many people to claim.

Yet another post where mykonian tries to gently and subtly steer us away from a qwints lynch. He tells me I should question B_B, and that if I can't change my mind about qwints, then asking for a claim was pointless. But after this, of course, he says things like "at least this is better than a Panzer lynch" and "I'm not happy with qwints' play." Gotta leave that back door open, in case the "front-door" plan of switching lynch-targets doesn't work, right?



In mykonian's vote for Zilla today, he says she played a very aggressive, anti-town game, and left it at that. He didn't say

anything

like this earlier in the thread. In fact, as you will remember, yesterday he was AGAINST a Zilla lynch as he didn't find her scummy, yet FOR a Zilla claim.

Zilla was NOT on mykonian's "pseudo-vote" list, and mykonian has never FOS'd or voted Zilla. Yet her 4 or 5 posts on day 2 were enough for him to put her at L-2, with nothing else to say but "she has been aggressive and anti-town"? Why didn't you say that yesterday, when she exhibited 95%+ of her aggressive, anti-town behavior? Or were the 4 posts you saw today enough to completely change your opinion of her and sneak on her quick-growing wagon at L-2?


--------------

And Sensfan, I'm very pissed off you made me get all this out tonight and stay up too late due to your premature hammer. I appreciate you replacing into such a daunting behemoth of a game, but you can't spare the 20 seconds to check up on vote counts? Not even when someone posts TWICE IN A ROW that we should be careful that Zilla is at L-1? In the post IMMEDIATELY BEFORE YOURS AT THE TOP OF THE FRICKIN' PAGE? Seriously?

[GIEFF]

mykonian says "on the other hand" a LOT, because he's trying to keep his opinions open on both sides, depending on who gets lynched.

To put my money where my mouth is:

1. About pantzers early game: it is undoubtely protown.

   But on the other hand

   , it barely can hurt scum. I don't know how panzer starts his games normally.

2. GIEFF's case, how hard it is to disprove now, still doesn't explain why Panzer must be town.

   But on the other hand

   , Panzers play makes absolutely no sense, and what I think to know about him, that is not normal for him.

   He tries to keep both me and Panzer open as scum, and uses this "back door" later in the day, when he abruptly switches from voting me all game to calling me townie and voting Panzer. Good thing he pretended to be so conflicted!
   
   

3. If you look at how I played while Zilla had me as target, you can see I was not that interested. Keep in mind that her arguments are not strong. However, that doesn't mean that Zilla can't be useful to town: Just look at the reactions of people to her. As I already stated, I don't think she has brought anything up that makes me think you are scum, goat, and this reaction makes you likely town, it looks sincere.
   
   

   But on the other hand

   , you don't bring anything more with your case. Sure, it is easy to point out that her accusations are wrong, we all know. She picks, and then something comes out: I don't think anyone else has thought you scummy because of Zilla. But do you really think that contradictions, strawmen, etc. make a good case? I have seen too many mislynches that way. It is simply too easy for scum to sit back while townies don't understand each other.

   (also note mykonian calling both Goat and Zilla townies here - we already know Goat is a townie, and if Zilla is townie, we will know that very soon, too).
   
   

4. I think I have been pretty clear: the actions you made against Panzer felt to me like you wanted to take out an aggressive player early based on one of his mistakes.
   
   But

   on the other hand

   , Panzers actions cannot be explained, and I don't like that. Means something is wrong there.

5. agreed, it won't be better then a random lynch.

   But on the other hand

   , what do we lose when she is a towny? close to nothing. Otherwise scum will just leave her in the game, and we'll be sitting here with an inactive player.

   So he agrees, but on the other hand, he disagrees.
   
   

6. not impressed. GIEFF nitpick against his "targets", goes way too far, and then you get accusations that he is tunneling, as his behaviour against someone doesn't make sense. I think that explains the contradiction partly.
   
   

   On the other hand

   , to lie as scum that way makes little more sense then it does as town, isn't it?

7. ok, I read it wrong the first time, obviously.
   
   But again, if I was scum, and I would try to look as protown as possible, I would refrain from changing stances a lot, and I would tunnel more, just to avoid this problem. If you change stances as scum you can wait for this.
   
   But

   on the other hand

   , as towny, if you think things over/reread and you come to a different conclusion, wouldn't you change? Tunneling is antitown.

   WIFOM and fence-sitting - the hallmark of scum. But on the other hand, why would scum act so scummy?
   
   

8. If I work from the assumption that GIEFF is scum, then Panzer is most likely town. And while BB has had not a good start (the panzer wagon... later the vote for zilla on little reasons), he makes valid points against GIEFF later. Zilla is simply annoying in my mind. Looks too much on little things, but at least has not gotten anybody too close to a lynch by this.
   
   

   On the other hand

   , this whole thought is based on the fact that GIEFF is scum. If he is not, then he could be right about Panzer, but I don't think this likely.

9. I thought we should go with the pseudovotes, as they show the majority of us was in favor of a BB lynch: but I'm afraid qwints is just the easy target just before the lynch, and I don't know if I should be that happy with it.

   On the other hand

   , a lurker lynch is better then a random lynch.

And if you think these are "just slips" or if you think calling Zilla a townie THREE TIMES are "just slips" you are vastly underestimating the power of the subconscious, and the amount of information scum have to pretend to hide with every single word they write.

[mykonian]

hey, the fact that you already know who scum is, doesn't make that anyone knows.

btw. Well done: not being on the wagon, while attacking zilla. IGMEOY.

[GIEFF]

You're improving; there was no "but on the other hand, my other eye is not on you."

I attack more than one person because I don't want to let anybody slip through the cracks. I don't think Zilla is the scummiest, and I don't think she was the best lynch-target, and so I didn't vote her.

[GIEFF]

And I think that attacking someone while not being on there wagon is FAR FAR FAR less scummy than being on someone's wagon while not attacking them.

Don't you?

[mykonian]

I think I have been defending zilla too long with the too scummy fallacy. I bet I talked about that with goat yesterday. Some people here look so precisely at every post, that if someone is scum in their minds, they will find contradictions, slips etc.. But you can make such cases just as easily on town as on scum.

[GIEFF]

And how precisely did you look at Zilla's posts before voting her?

[mykonian]

not. I have 50+ pages of general opinion back, and the way qwints played, and this related to an ongoing game, pushed me over.

[Zilla]

16) Posting in twilight is acceptable, for both the lynchee and town members.

ARM of Suspicion: Mykonian, Dour, Sens

.

[Zilla]

From what I've seen of Sens, he has a fetish for quicklynching. It's still completely nuts to abruptly end a day like that. Does anyone want to unvote on the off chance that wasn't hammer?

[Zilla]

Technically, Mykonian didn't include a colon in his vote, so it's possibly not an official vote...

[Zilla]

Zilla, you're either wrong or trying to mislead.

vote: Zilla

And you know this with certainty, eh? I'm just pointing out how BB is using a double standard, that when I don't buy a case, I'm buddying up to town, but Qwints can't be buddying up to town, he must be defending scum.

[Zilla]

Sorry I'm late, guys. Life's been busy.

mykonian is wrong about the slip again, and its odd that Panzer didn't get a result.

Vote: Zilla

, for now. I think this is the third vote.

Also note no reasoning here, just tossing a vote on the heap.

[PJ.]

hmm..Can we just lynch the anyone whos name isn't GIEFF at this point?

[mykonian]

Technically, Mykonian didn't include a colon in his vote, so it's possibly not an official vote...

keep hoping. I don't think I ever do that...

and this kind of makes up for our way too long day 1.

[SensFan]

Oh my God...

I only read to page 52, and thought that was it...so sorry, guys.

Unvote

, on the off-chance it wasn't a lynch.

[SensFan]

From what I've seen of Sens, he has a fetish for quicklynching.

Given the right circumstances, I absolutely think a quicklynch is warranted. This is not one of those circumstances.

[mykonian]

and that is scum number two. The "O sorry, did I hammer?". No reasons, only getting further in the game. We will never know why you did it...

[Dourgrim]

Zilla was on my list yesterday, she was still on my list going into today, and I voted in accordance. Didn't realize I was putting her at L-1 (although that wouldn't necessarily have prevented the vote had I known), and I certainly didn't expect anyone to not read the entire thread before voting. Very curious to see how she flips (unless GIEFF screwed up and we're not in twilight).

mykonian/Panzer: I get that you don't like GIEFF all that much, and I'll be the first one to admit that I'm not a huge fan of his playstyle myself, but he was instrumental in the qwints lynch yesterday... that has to count for something. qwints flipping scum at the end of the last day alleviated many of my suspicions of him. Not defending him (he can still be annoying), but it's hard to refute what he's done for the Town so far.

[SensFan]

I certainly didn't expect anyone to not read the entire thread before voting.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I read to the end of 52, and thought that was the end of the thread.