I think the conversation is pretty relevant. Do you have any comments on it?Beyond_Birthday wrote:Thanks Rice. That was the most useful post ever. Then again, I'm bored and relatively useless in games until discussion picks up, and this talk between Noc, Magnus, and Isacc is about to put me to sleep with boredom.
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Nocmen meep meep
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magnus_orion Mafia Scum
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I didn't see that post.magnus_orion wrote:btw,
hos: nocmen
you were mentioning conclusions about isacc's post?
Also, Isacc, for the sake of clairty, which question are you referring to?
As for conclusions, I was saying that his actions could imply that he is afraid of questions I'm asking, because it gives him more chances to slip up.-
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Walnut Goon
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Really? I thought he said the point was to see how people answered, not to require them to answer in a specific manner.I believe nocmen explained what the point was.
While still pointing out the impossibility of your question, he mentioned two "small scum reads". There is clearly a difference between "I have suspicions of people" and "I think people are scum." If you were being absolutely pedantic, he has still not answered the explicit question of "Who do you think is scum, and why?". My read of this is that you come out of it as more scummy than him, for attempting to force an argument that just isn't there. That said, you are getting a startling character reference:The fact of the matter is that he named names when pressured.
Which means he had names, which means he had suspicions, which means he was dodging the question, which is how he reacted.
Magnus, do you consider this to be a true statement,? Whether you consider it true or not, do you consider BB justified in making it? What do you see as his purpose and the likely result of him saying it in this game?even if Magnus did attack someone in that game, it probably would have been largely ignored
This bothers me, because it seems true of a lot of players, but is also an excuse for the scum to cruise through Day 1. How about saying something startling and waking yourself up?Beyond_Birthday wrote:Thanks Rice. That was the most useful post ever. Then again, I'm bored and relatively useless in games until discussion picks up, and this talk between Noc, Magnus, and Isacc is about to put me to sleep with boredom.
Back to Magnus: I generally like Nocmen's play so far. I think it is realistic at this stage to want to engage people in conversation through asking them questions to draw them into conversation without expecting instant gratification in scumhunting. I don't agree so much with what he said about getting vote patterns from the RVS stage nor comparing reactions to questions in the RVS stage to reactions later in the game.Reading your signature makes me feel guilty and helpless.-
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Isacc Goon
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I'd say this "conclusion" is pretty reachy, and not very well founded. I didn't make any condemnation of your questions, so there is no evidence for you to imply that I am at all afraid of your questioning.Nocmen wrote:
I didn't see that post.magnus_orion wrote:btw,
hos: nocmen
you were mentioning conclusions about isacc's post?
Also, Isacc, for the sake of clairty, which question are you referring to?
As for conclusions, I was saying that his actions could imply that he is afraid of questions I'm asking, because it gives him more chances to slip up.ShowMy mini normal is running! Yaaaay!
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caf19 Goon
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While you may be right to bring this up, the dismissive tone of this excerpt worries me somewhat. "That's nice and all..." as if it was dumb of me to bring it up in the first place. You seem a bit eager to quell the points made against magnus.Beyond_Birthday wrote:caf19: That's nice and all, but at least 4 of us can vouch that Magnus is always this....eager. He expects the town to be magical and always direct, despite the impossibility of that happening right now.
Again, I find the condescending tone to be unconducive to further discussion, and therefore anti-town. Also, I find your dismissal of the Noc/Magnus/Isacc issue to be exceptionable: it's a central part of the day's discussion so far. If you don't think it is heading anywhere productive, why not start some threads of discussion of your own instead of just crushing what is there?Beyond_Birthday wrote:Thanks Rice. That was the most useful post ever. Then again, I'm bored and relatively useless in games until discussion picks up, and this talk between Noc, Magnus, and Isacc is about to put me to sleep with boredom.
I'll agree that RBT does need to give further opinions though. RBT: So, what scumtells from the random stage have you noticed?
I see. However, I can't agree that it was unreasonable to say that anyone could be scum at that stage, because it's pretty much true, anyonemagnus_orion wrote:Yes, I was expecting a straightforward answer, in order to see how he reacts to this questioning, to see if he's thrown off base. Dodging the question does not allow us to guage him later on in comparison, which he has suggested doing to the players. In other words, he is not only dodging the question, but avoiding us from getting reads on him, as a direct result of that which he has already helpfully explained to us. (unless, of course, he intends to form a trend of dodging questions, which is much more problematic in determining his allignment)
That said, once his dodging was indicated, he did answer the question, which brings up an issue of why he dodged in the first place, as it is still problematic since it sticks with the above.couldbe scum - I'd have given a similar answer. Am I to take from this that you don't think anyone could be scum, and you have narrowed it down to a certain group of people?
I note that your original question didn't ask Noc to give a few examples of scumtells, it said 'who do you think is scum and why' or words to that effect. This is a polarising way of phrasing the question, leaving him really with the 'all or nothing' option-set of either saying someone is scum or not. Having presented him with such a narrow set of options, I don't think you can complain when he opts to take the (more reasonable) middle ground by naming a couple of minor scumtells. Your case on Noc is not very strong, imo.-
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Dourgrim Yep. Again.
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Riceballtail Mafia Scum
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magnus_orion Mafia Scum
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Well, err... I'd hope they'd listen to me.Magnus, do you consider this to be a true statement,? Whether you consider it true or not, do you consider BB justified in making it? What do you see as his purpose and the likely result of him saying it in this game?
I don't know, I supose I'm not good at convincing people, but fiding the scum is a different story. Generally, more people think I'm scum when I'm town, and call me obvtown when I'm scum, judging from the games I've been in. (Much to my amusement, of course).
That said, why ask these questions? High suspicion here. Looks like you're sizing me up to see how well you can convince people to mislynch me from my POV.
It's tentative at best, but I suspect walnut. You're also up in the air. If walnut turns out to be scum, I also suspect nocmen, but he's really the least suspicous, and completely dependent on walnut's flip at this stage. I reiterate, tentative at best.Am I to take from this that you don't think anyone could be scum, and you have narrowed it down to a certain group of people?
See, its not so hard.
Lulz, what case? I don't have a case.I note that your original question didn't ask Noc to give a few examples of scumtells, it said 'who do you think is scum and why' or words to that effect. This is a polarising way of phrasing the question, leaving him really with the 'all or nothing' option-set of either saying someone is scum or not. Having presented him with such a narrow set of options, I don't think you can complain when he opts to take the (more reasonable) middle ground by naming a couple of minor scumtells. Your case on Noc is not very strong, imo.
I never called nocmen scum.
I'm voting him so he answers what I have to say. I'd think that'd be obvious from the post I made.
speaking of which,
unvote
That said, your comments are interesting. I presented him with a narrow set of options? Would you rather I allowed him to include people not in the game? Do you consider there to be more options?
Meta suggests BB lurks as scum, and acts indecisive. His play during this game has proven to be very different, so far.This bothers me, because it seems true of a lot of players, but is also an excuse for the scum to cruise through Day 1. How about saying something startling and waking yourself up?
That said, he clearly understands my playstyle, and may be trying to avoid me, but I don't think B_B would consider trying to convince me that he's town worth the risk of appearing scummy to others.
I think B_B is town, mostly because I was wrong last time I said that, and I said it for different reasons.ShowWhy, yes, I do exist simply to make your life a living hell.
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Nocmen meep meep
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So you think B_B is acting differently, even with the last post he's made? To me, his last post seems like hes just actively lurking, posting enough to make us see he is here, but not contributing to the game. However, that is only from that last post.magnus_orion wrote:
Well, err... I'd hope they'd listen to me.Magnus, do you consider this to be a true statement,? Whether you consider it true or not, do you consider BB justified in making it? What do you see as his purpose and the likely result of him saying it in this game?
I don't know, I supose I'm not good at convincing people, but fiding the scum is a different story. Generally, more people think I'm scum when I'm town, and call me obvtown when I'm scum, judging from the games I've been in. (Much to my amusement, of course).
That said, why ask these questions? High suspicion here. Looks like you're sizing me up to see how well you can convince people to mislynch me from my POV.
It's tentative at best, but I suspect walnut. You're also up in the air. If walnut turns out to be scum, I also suspect nocmen, but he's really the least suspicous, and completely dependent on walnut's flip at this stage. I reiterate, tentative at best.Am I to take from this that you don't think anyone could be scum, and you have narrowed it down to a certain group of people?
See, its not so hard.
Lulz, what case? I don't have a case.I note that your original question didn't ask Noc to give a few examples of scumtells, it said 'who do you think is scum and why' or words to that effect. This is a polarising way of phrasing the question, leaving him really with the 'all or nothing' option-set of either saying someone is scum or not. Having presented him with such a narrow set of options, I don't think you can complain when he opts to take the (more reasonable) middle ground by naming a couple of minor scumtells. Your case on Noc is not very strong, imo.
I never called nocmen scum.
I'm voting him so he answers what I have to say. I'd think that'd be obvious from the post I made.
speaking of which,
unvote
That said, your comments are interesting. I presented him with a narrow set of options? Would you rather I allowed him to include people not in the game? Do you consider there to be more options?
Meta suggests BB lurks as scum, and acts indecisive. His play during this game has proven to be very different, so far.This bothers me, because it seems true of a lot of players, but is also an excuse for the scum to cruise through Day 1. How about saying something startling and waking yourself up?
That said, he clearly understands my playstyle, and may be trying to avoid me, but I don't think B_B would consider trying to convince me that he's town worth the risk of appearing scummy to others.
I think B_B is town, mostly because I was wrong last time I said that, and I said it for different reasons.
And you do realize that just because you were wrong last time doesn't mean anything regarding the outcome of this time, right?-
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magnus_orion Mafia Scum
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BB didn't active lurk, he just plain lurked.So you think B_B is acting differently, even with the last post he's made?
It means that what I thought back then made BB town is actually how he plays as scum, so the fact that he's playing differently suggests to me that he's town.And you do realize that just because you were wrong last time doesn't mean anything regarding the outcome of this time, right?ShowWhy, yes, I do exist simply to make your life a living hell.
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Nocmen meep meep
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I'm okay with the differences, but why do you think he should be cleared from actively lurking? To me, that is still lurking.magnus_orion wrote:
BB didn't active lurk, he just plain lurked.So you think B_B is acting differently, even with the last post he's made?
It means that what I thought back then made BB town is actually how he plays as scum, so the fact that he's playing differently suggests to me that he's town.And you do realize that just because you were wrong last time doesn't mean anything regarding the outcome of this time, right?-
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PhilyEc Mafia Scum
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Gotta say, the nameless quotes arent helping anyone. Could you please name them? ><Magnus wrote:Well, err... I'd hope they'd listen to me.
I don't know, I supose I'm not good at convincing peoplekortskorts (14:18:48): haylen wants more porno-related questions
SimplyAwesome64 (14:19:11): :O no it dont!
jdodge1019 (14:20:06): then why do you keep using the blowjob emoticon
SimplyAwesome64 (14:20:19): >.>-
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magnus_orion Mafia Scum
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Cleared!? He's a long way from that! "Suggests" is as weak as its meant to sound. In that game, he made extremely long analysis posts every so often, and they extensive, but few and far between.Nocmen wrote:
I'm okay with the differences, but why do you think he should be cleared from actively lurking? To me, that is still lurking.magnus_orion wrote:
BB didn't active lurk, he just plain lurked.So you think B_B is acting differently, even with the last post he's made?
It means that what I thought back then made BB town is actually how he plays as scum, so the fact that he's playing differently suggests to me that he's town.And you do realize that just because you were wrong last time doesn't mean anything regarding the outcome of this time, right?
I'll try to remember, sorry if it made things harder for you.philyEc wrote:Gotta say, the nameless quotes arent helping anyone. Could you please name them? ><ShowWhy, yes, I do exist simply to make your life a living hell.
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Kairyuu Mafia Scum
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Trumpet of Doom Mafia Scum
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/prodded.
I'm notRiceballtail wrote:
Because you're stalking me, or because I have a habit of getting killed early?Trumpet of Doom wrote:Vote: RBT. He knows why. If he doesn't...
(Dude, we should make a tradition of random-voting each other.)intentionallystalking you...
3 of us. Remember, Magnus was dead by the time I replaced in, so I didn't bother to read him terribly in-depth. (Come to think of it, I'd guess RBT didn't either.)Beyond_Birthday wrote:at least 4 of us can vouch that Magnus is always this....eager.
From what I've heard, that tends to backfire and get you quicklynched.Walnut wrote:How about saying something startling and waking yourself up?
RBT lurks as town (or he did in that URoE game that five of us were in at some point or another), and I don't know how he plays as scum. I guess I'llunvote,but I don't immediately see any better suspects.Discretion is the better part of valor.
If I helped lynch you, you deserved it.
Retired from playing for the foreseeable future.-
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Beyond_Birthday Goon
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No, which is why it bores me.Nocmen wrote:
I think the conversation is pretty relevant. Do you have any comments on it?Beyond_Birthday wrote:Thanks Rice. That was the most useful post ever. Then again, I'm bored and relatively useless in games until discussion picks up, and this talk between Noc, Magnus, and Isacc is about to put me to sleep with boredom.
1. It was true for the situation last game. He guessed 2/3 scum correctly, but people didn't really take to his guesses much as they were not well substantiated (at least in my opinion.) And by "ignored," I suppose easily shrugged off and countered.Walnut wrote:
Magnus, do you consider this to be a true statement,? Whether you consider it true or not, do you consider BB justified in making it? What do you see as his purpose and the likely result of him saying it in this game?even if Magnus did attack someone in that game, it probably would have been largely ignored
This bothers me, because it seems true of a lot of players, but is also an excuse for the scum to cruise through Day 1. How about saying something startling and waking yourself up?Beyond_Birthday wrote:Thanks Rice. That was the most useful post ever. Then again, I'm bored and relatively useless in games until discussion picks up, and this talk between Noc, Magnus, and Isacc is about to put me to sleep with boredom.
2. Meh, Rice did it in the game (with Mangus) I was referencing, where she just kept popping in with something of a "no opinion, BB's scum, bye." Indeed, last game I was scum, but she annoys me because she didn't substantiate either, but as she was insane cop, I really couldn't counter her and was dayvigged (by accident? I never did understand how his day investigation became dayvig.)
@Ca19 But, I have. I have found annoying people or pissing them off gets faster results. So, I did something obtrusive but not inherently scummy to move conversation to something I care to talk about.
On Magnus: VOILA!
Ah, this is nice to be right.magnus_orion wrote: Well, err... I'd hope they'd listen to me.
I don't know, I supose I'm not good at convincing people, but fiding the scum is a different story. Generally, more people think I'm scum when I'm town, and call me obvtown when I'm scum, judging from the games I've been in. (Much to my amusement, of course).
Ah, I love this kid. Not for calling me town, but because I feel special having a kind of meta. I typically avoid playing the same way twice, but my general approach to games are the same, alignment irrelevant.magnus_orion wrote: That said, he clearly understands my playstyle, and may be trying to avoid me, but I don't think B_B would consider trying to convince me that he's town worth the risk of appearing scummy to others.
I think B_B is town, mostly because I was wrong last time I said that, and I said it for different reasons.
Did you do a meta search on me, because your introductory clause sounds this way. I don't like you, +3%.Nocmen wrote:So you think B_B is acting differently, even with the last post he's made? To me, his last post seems like hes just actively lurking, posting enough to make us see he is here, but not contributing to the game. However, that is only from that last post.
And you do realize that just because you were wrong last time doesn't mean anything regarding the outcome of this time, right?
Also, gambler's fallacy doesn't apply to analysis of playstyle in judging scum.
And: In the last game, I didn't even post until page 5/6. So your point? I have been bored up to this point.
@Orion:
Meh, how do you think I'll play this game? If I play exactly the same way (once we're in the thick of it), would you think me scum?
@Trumpet: Your post is unhelpful. Stop copying me! *Grr*ShowI'm coming up on Infra-Red
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magnus_orion Mafia Scum
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If you play exactly (or generally, even) the same way, then its null, since I don't have town meta on you. But if you play different from my experience with you as scum, then it raises the probability that you're town.Beyond_Birthday wrote:Meh, how do you think I'll play this game? If I play exactly the same way (once we're in the thick of it), would you think me scum?
How I think you'll play this game? I'd think you'd play it the same way, but with more frequent posts, as you'd be less worried about scumtells as town. Or possibly completely differently, still because you're less worried about scumtells.
(Of course, that assumes you're town to begin with. )
@Issac: Anything to say about anything?ShowWhy, yes, I do exist simply to make your life a living hell.
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Walnut Goon
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I had a number of reasons for asking these questions, including:magnus_orion wrote:
Well, err... I'd hope they'd listen to me.Walnut wrote: Magnus, do you consider this to be a true statement,? Whether you consider it true or not, do you consider BB justified in making it? What do you see as his purpose and the likely result of him saying it in this game?
I don't know, I supose I'm not good at convincing people, but fiding the scum is a different story. Generally, more people think I'm scum when I'm town, and call me obvtown when I'm scum, judging from the games I've been in. (Much to my amusement, of course).
That said, why ask these questions? High suspicion here. Looks like you're sizing me up to see how well you can convince people to mislynch me from my POV.
1) Seeing how you responded to questions ;
2) From the way that you have started the game you have shown confidence in a method of direct questioning and drawing quick conclusions. I was interested to see if you were aware of how other players regarded this;
3) To see whether you thought BB was scum for saying what he did;
4) To have all players thinking about the situation.
What baffles me is that when I point out that BB is undermining your credibility (and, to use your words, potentially setting you up for a mislynch), you ignore the elements about BB and instead perceive it as me attacking you.Reading your signature makes me feel guilty and helpless.-
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Isacc Goon
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caf19 Goon
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Reasons would be nice.magnus_orion wrote:You're also up in the air.
My, you do like to polarise things. Cases don't come simply in the form of stating "X is scum!" One might be tempted to think that the following posts...magnus_orion wrote:Lulz, what case? I don't have a case.
I never called nocmen scum.magnus_orion wrote:Well, that's nice and all, but its another direct dodge of giving an actual answer to my question. I'm starting to notice a trend here.magnus_orion wrote:Yes, I was expecting a straightforward answer, in order to see how he reacts to this questioning, to see if he's thrown off base. Dodging the question does not allow us to guage him later on in comparison, which he has suggested doing to the players. In other words, he is not only dodging the question, but avoiding us from getting reads on him, as a direct result of that which he has already helpfully explained to us. (unless, of course, he intends to form a trend of dodging questions, which is much more problematic in determining his allignment)
That said, once his dodging was indicated, he did answer the question, which brings up an issue of why he dodged in the first place, as it is still problematic since it sticks with the above.magnus_orion wrote:btw,
hos: nocmen
you were mentioning conclusions about isacc's post?
...might constitute a case, or as close to a case as it's possible to muster in the first 3 or 4 pages. You may have largely renounced your suspicions of Nocmen now, but from my point of view making my last post, he was clearly your top suspect at that point. Even though the vote may have been for pressure, it still indicates you found him suspicious enough to warrant pressuring.magnus_orion wrote:hey, nocmen, how about you answer my questions!
unvoteOut of spite for not answering.
vote: nocmen
You misunderstand. The narrow set of options you provided was when you asked Nocmen to say who he thought was scum. Not who had done anything suspicious at that early stage, but who was scum. You effectively gave Noc two options: say someone is scum on a very limited set of evidence, or not call anyone scum ('anybody could be scum') and incur your wrath for supposed question dodging. When he gave some minor suspicions, you criticised him for not doing that straight away, when in fact the reason for that was the initial phrasing didn't give him the option to do so.magnus_orion wrote:That said, your comments are interesting. I presented him with a narrow set of options? Would you rather I allowed him to include people not in the game? Do you consider there to be more options?
And, er, what would this subject be? The post this quotation comes from talks mostly about meta reads on yourself, which doesn't really amount to scumhunting. From your posts so far, I find it hard to tell who you find suspicious. Please enlighten me.Beyond_Birthday wrote:@Ca19 But, I have. I have found annoying people or pissing them off gets faster results. So, I did something obtrusive but not inherently scummy to move conversation to something I care to talk about.-
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Dourgrim Yep. Again.
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Riceballtail Mafia Scum
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PhilyEc Mafia Scum
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Magnus to me, is behaving like the typical eager hunter. Giving his suspects little room to manuver and stab them like hell the second they bleat something that could be misrepped as scummy. That said, scum do the exact same thing. I'm undecided for now.Caf wrote:You misunderstand. The narrow set of options you provided was when you asked Nocmen to say who he thought was scum. Not who had done anything suspicious at that early stage, but who was scum. You effectively gave Noc two options: say someone is scum on a very limited set of evidence, or not call anyone scum ('anybody could be scum') and incur your wrath for supposed question dodging. When he gave some minor suspicions, you criticised him for not doing that straight away, when in fact the reason for that was the initial phrasing didn't give him the option to do so
Your earlier post makes me think of top suspects myself obviously scum will eat up any ideas I have at this point since its only speculation. Lets see things develop a bit more before we bring down the heavy duty artillery >:3kortskorts (14:18:48): haylen wants more porno-related questions
SimplyAwesome64 (14:19:11): :O no it dont!
jdodge1019 (14:20:06): then why do you keep using the blowjob emoticon
SimplyAwesome64 (14:20:19): >.>
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