Mini 757 - South Park Mafia (Game Over)

[Empking]

RBT claimed way too early, was skittish about PR claiming and hasn't really been trying to hunt scum.

[Empking]

Vote: DDD

[Spolium]

Timmaaargh Timmy Timmehh

My second question is for Spolium: How many games of mafia have you played?

Two or three completed on this site, a bunch ongoing. A couple completed offsite.

Spolium doesn't seem like the type to make illogical arguments

Not that I'm not flattered, but what makes you say this?

Dej's statement wasn't worth destroying the town's interest in the game as it wasn't a solid scumtell nor was it particularly damning.

Dej's statement didn't bother me as much as his reaction to questions about it. He was being evasive/dismissive about it, and that just screams scum to me.

The problem with metaphors, Spolium, is that they are never accurate. Buttsecks hilarity aside, the entire metaphor needed to be thrown out, as the two situations were provably dissimilar enough to render your argument pointless

I was trying to relate how his statement was indirectly suggestive. I really don't see how the metaphor was particularly off-target.

The next damning thing is how Spolium asked someone who they felt was most town on dej's wagon. What. The. Flipping. Banana.

Nobody even batted an eye! Even the person being asked was like, "Well, I don't see the need, but OK!"

What's the problem with that question? You seem to be taking it for granted that the flaw is obvious, but I guess it escapes me.

BLARRRRGHARHOOO TIMMY!

[caf19]

Well, we "found" scum. Pity we didn't kill him via lynch as then we could analyse who was eager/reluctant to get on his wagon, etc. Still, here are Eso's significant interactions. There is a lot of speculation involved in this because Eso didn't actually say very much, but here it is anyway:

God help the town if Spolium is Mafia.

We could probably Wifom ourselves to death on this comment. Meh.

224: vote on fuzzylightning (now DDD) for lurking. Obviously this is either buddy distancing or trying to get an 'easy target' townie pressured.

247: unvotes and votes RBT, the eventual mislynch. Then mostly lurks.

Day 2, all he really does is a crappy attack on me for saying RBT didn't claim. He also says he's not going to jump on Spolium for the mod's alleged indication that he is scum. I'd say that is the strongest indicator of buddy behaviour we've seen from Eso - trying to quell a potential attack on Spolium when it's still in its early stages.

So Eso's actions could potentially indicate DDD or Spolium as a buddy. Problem is, there are several players whom he just ignored totally, and they could be his buddy likely as not. More analysis needed obv.


incidentally, DDD's only mention of Eso is calling him scummy in 349. But in his next post he chooses to vote nicolio over Eso. DDD: what made nico more scummy than Eso?

---

Welcome to the game, Wall-E!

The next damning thing is how Spolium asked someone who they felt was most town on dej's wagon. What. The. Flipping. Banana.

Nobody even batted an eye! Even the person being asked was like, "Well, I don't see the need, but OK!"

Er... oops? Is this really super-scummy? I did think it was slightly strange at the time, but it did come as part of a large post where Spolium asked questions of

everyone

. It seemed to be more a part of Spolium's frenetic attempts to increase discussion rather than a scum's attempt to determine an NK. Do you disagree?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

incidentally, DDD's only mention of Eso is calling him scummy in 349. But in his next post he chooses to vote nicolio over Eso. DDD: what made nico more scummy than Eso?

I don't care for how you've phrased that, makes it seem like I willfully disregarded him which isn't the case.

Anyways, I voted for Nico over Eso because the quote I pulled from Nico and bolded part of in 349 was the most compelling thing from my readthrough. Hence she was, at the time, who I was most confident voting for and most wanting an explanation from.

[Spolium]

BLAARGH WHOOOO TIMMMYYY

Wall-E, I have a couple of questions about this statement:

Dej's statement wasn't worth destroying the town's interest in the game as it wasn't a solid scumtell nor was it particularly damning.

What elements of dej's play rang town for you, specifically, prior to his claim?

What made you think that the main focus of the case was on dej's post itself, as opposed to his reaction to pressure over it?

Timmah? TIMMAHAHHHHHHHRGGGH rrrrrr

---------
@DDD - analysis on Empking, plz

@Ghostwriter - analysis on DDD, plz

@caf19 - analysis on Ghostwriter, plz

@Empking - analysis on caf19, plz

Tooorahhhh TIMMAAAH! Timmeh

[Empking]

Caf seems to be solidly contributing and appears pro-town. She's got quite a few waste posts though.

[caf19]

I don't care for how you've phrased that, makes it seem like I willfully disregarded him which isn't the case.

I'm not sure I follow you. As far as I can see, everything I said is true - you did express suspicion of Eso and nicolio, and then went on to vote nicolio. Given that in 349 you ended with identical conclusions on both of them ("more likely to be scum than town at this juncture"), I think it was fair to ask what tipped the balance towards nicolio. Your explanation doesn't really account for much because it's largely based on your subjective opinion at the time which can't really be confirmed, but perhaps I couldn't realistically have expected anything more. Still, it means I have to consider you as a potential Eso-buddy.

@caf19 - analysis on Ghostwriter, plz

Not particularly happy with his play. Never really branched out from suspecting the obvious people (dej then RBT) yesterday. Seems to contribute lightly but at the same time prods others to contribute more (366). We need to hear more from him on who he's suspicious of today.

I have also been started to think that Eso's refraining from suspecting Spolium for his confirmed PR is probably a null tell. This is because making comments on setup, outguess-the-mod etc., especially such vacuous ones as "I am honestly not sure I am following your logic", are an easy way to seem like you are protown without actually contributing. That's probably the most likely explanation for it, not Eso and Spolium being buddies. So, I'm not a big fan of the Spolium suspicion. I'd say GhostWriter and DDD now form my top two, although on rereading RestFermata I don't think he should be given a free pass either. He's been a consistent fan of the big wagons (dej yesterday, DDD today, absent through the RBT lynch) and needs to contribute more, obv.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I don't care for how you've phrased that, makes it seem like I willfully disregarded him which isn't the case.

I'm not sure I follow you... Still, it means I have to consider you as a potential Eso-buddy.

Maybe I overquoted what I was really objecting to. The phrase that bothered me was, "DDD's only mention of Eso..." Which makes it appear as if I was willfully ignoring Eso other than that single point, when the you could sub in at least three or four other players into the quote and it'd still be accurate. I'm having trouble phrasing this last part, but basically making such a post is attempting to link me to Eso by ignoring or forgetting the context of the situation. The situation being that I'm a later replacement in the game and have few links with any player.

@DDD - analysis on Empking, plz

In general I think alot of the grief he's given is unwarranted. In this game he doesn't seem to be doing so well in finding scum, clearly missing with his two targets yesterday and continuing this trend with being incorrect in thinking I'm scum. It appears to me that his vote on me is nothing more than OMGUS which isn't particularly helpful to the town, but seems to fit within his general style. If pressed I'd say he's town, but that's based more on the likely distribution of roles and a lack of scumtells then any real conviction that he's with the town.

@Spolium: Turnabout being fair play, analysis of RestFermata, plz

[Empking]

Hoew is it OMGUS?

[caf19]

I don't care for how you've phrased that, makes it seem like I willfully disregarded him which isn't the case.

I'm not sure I follow you... Still, it means I have to consider you as a potential Eso-buddy.

Maybe I overquoted what I was really objecting to. The phrase that bothered me was, "DDD's only mention of Eso..." Which makes it appear as if I was willfully ignoring Eso other than that single point, when the you could sub in at least three or four other players into the quote and it'd still be accurate. I'm having trouble phrasing this last part, but basically making such a post is attempting to link me to Eso by ignoring or forgetting the context of the situation. The situation being that I'm a later replacement in the game and have few links with any player.

I see. Well, you are indeed a replacement, but that doesn't really weaken my point. You'd found time to express thoughts on RBT, Empking and Rest before that post, so it's clear that you didn't find Eso incredibly noteworthy prior to then. Also, that bit wasn't the most important part of the argument (the most important part being that you voted for nico over Eso, obv).

[Spolium]

Timmaaaah! Jabbabababababa

Timmeh

.

@Spolium: Turnabout being fair play, analysis of RestFermata, plz

It would be remiss of me to ignore the fact that her votes thus far have both gone the way of the popular choice at the time (and basically made no comment about other players), but with significant periods of absence it is difficult to make a reasonable assessment based on this. On the other hand, I do sense earnestness in her actual contributions - being pressed for time would make it difficult for her to focus anywhere but on her lynch candidate of choice, so my read on her amounts to null at the moment.

I'd basically like to see a full analysis from her, if possible. Given that she is struggling to commit time to the game, however, it may be for the best if she considered replacing out.

MOD: prod Rest, please.

Tiraaameeehhhh TIMMAY

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hoew is it OMGUS?

Let's see, you immediatly vote for me following my incorrect argument with you. And then you continue to assert that I'm scum with no listed reasons. Furthermore, I trust that you've actually analyzed my mistake and as far as I can tell there's no logical reason I would intentionally ignore information as scum and if we assume it is a mistake then it seems it is a nulltell. Making it appear to me that the sole reason you're voting for me is that I tried to challenge you on a point.

I see. Well, you are indeed a replacement, but that doesn't really weaken my point. You'd found time to express thoughts on RBT, Empking and Rest before that post, so it's clear that you didn't find Eso incredibly noteworthy prior to then. Also, that bit wasn't the most important part of the argument (the most important part being that you voted for nico over Eso, obv).

Still a non-starter for me. Looking at D2 my focus was drawn by two players based off their current postings. Why didn't I find Eso incredibly noteworthy prior to my isolated reading? Because he didn't post anything noteworthy to draw my attention which was clearly his intention when looking back at his D2 posts.

And no, it wasn't the most important part of the argument, but I'd already addressed that as well as I could. Though to add to it a little, Spolium found my case on Nico to be convincing, so it's not as if I was disregarding a good argument to go chase unicorns, I was following up on what I thought was the best case.

[Empking]

Hoew is it OMGUS?

Let's see, you immediatly vote for me following my incorrect argument with you. And then you continue to assert that I'm scum with no listed reasons. Furthermore, I trust that you've actually analyzed my mistake and as far as I can tell there's no logical reason I would intentionally ignore information as scum and if we assume it is a mistake then it seems it is a nulltell. Making it appear to me that the sole reason you're voting for me is that I tried to challenge you on a point.

I'm voting you for your "incorrect" argument not the fact that you had an argument against me. I think that's pretty easy to spot.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hoew is it OMGUS?

Let's see, you immediatly vote for me following my incorrect argument with you. And then you continue to assert that I'm scum with no listed reasons. Furthermore, I trust that you've actually analyzed my mistake and as far as I can tell there's no logical reason I would intentionally ignore information as scum and if we assume it is a mistake then it seems it is a nulltell. Making it appear to me that the sole reason you're voting for me is that I tried to challenge you on a point.

I'm voting you for your "incorrect" argument not the fact that you had an argument against me. I think that's pretty easy to spot.

Getting somewhere at least. I fully admit to being wrong, the burden I ask of you is to show how my incorrect argument shows that I'm scum and not just an idiot who made a mistake.

[Empking]

Hoew is it OMGUS?

Let's see, you immediatly vote for me following my incorrect argument with you. And then you continue to assert that I'm scum with no listed reasons. Furthermore, I trust that you've actually analyzed my mistake and as far as I can tell there's no logical reason I would intentionally ignore information as scum and if we assume it is a mistake then it seems it is a nulltell. Making it appear to me that the sole reason you're voting for me is that I tried to challenge you on a point.

I'm voting you for your "incorrect" argument not the fact that you had an argument against me. I think that's pretty easy to spot.

Getting somewhere at least. I fully admit to being wrong, the burden I ask of you is to show how my incorrect argument shows that I'm scum and not just an idiot who made a mistake.

Even if you were right then the thing I did was very minor and would more likely come from scum than town so the fact that you incorrectly made that argument means you're more likely scum than town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Getting somewhere at least. I fully admit to being wrong, the burden I ask of you is to show how my incorrect argument shows that I'm scum and not just an idiot who made a mistake.

Even if you were right then the thing I did was very minor and would more likely come from scum than town so the fact that you incorrectly made that argument means you're more likely scum than town.

I think I've translated your arguments into logical statements here...

1) If I was right, then you'd have committed a minor slip, but I would be more likely to be scum than town for trying to nail you on a minor point.

Only true given knowledge of your alignment. Furthermore, I wasn't hounding you or voting for you based on this slip, just exploring a possible contradiction. So your characterization of my behavior is incorrect in the first place, but that's all irrelevant because there's no possibility I was right since the contradiction I saw was based on me having incomplete information. Let's move onto the relevant point then...

2) Because my argument was wrong, I am more likely scum than town.

Please demonstrate how using incorrect arguments is a scumtell. Because I would argue that if townies never used incorrect arguments then there'd never be mislynches and scum would never win. Since there are many mislynches then often pro-town players make incorrect arguments. Hence such behavior is a null-tell.

[Empking]

Getting somewhere at least. I fully admit to being wrong, the burden I ask of you is to show how my incorrect argument shows that I'm scum and not just an idiot who made a mistake.

Even if you were right then the thing I did was very minor and would more likely come from scum than town so the fact that you incorrectly made that argument means you're more likely scum than town.

I think I've translated your arguments into logical statements here...

1) If I was right, then you'd have committed a minor slip, but I would be more likely to be scum than town for trying to nail you on a minor point.

Only true given knowledge of your alignment. Furthermore, I wasn't hounding you or voting for you based on this slip, just exploring a possible contradiction. So your characterization of my behavior is incorrect in the first place, but that's all irrelevant because there's no possibility I was right since the contradiction I saw was based on me having incomplete information. Let's move onto the relevant point then...

2) Because my argument was wrong, I am more likely scum than town.

Please demonstrate how using incorrect arguments is a scumtell. Because I would argue that if townies never used incorrect arguments then there'd never be mislynches and scum would never win. Since there are many mislynches then often pro-town players make incorrect arguments. Hence such behavior is a null-tell.

Not so there's a difference between an unarguably incorrect argument and a arguably correct argument against town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Not so there's a difference between an unarguably incorrect argument and a arguably correct argument against town.

Correct, but what role does intent factor into the equation?

[Empking]

Not so there's a difference between an unarguably incorrect argument and a arguably correct argument against town.

Correct, but what role does intent factor into the equation?

You can't know intent (apart from your own). You have to look at actions.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Not so there's a difference between an unarguably incorrect argument and a arguably correct argument against town.

Correct, but what role does intent factor into the equation?

You can't know intent (apart from your own). You have to look at actions.

You're telling me you never try to understand someone's intent? That you never explore people's possible motivations for their actions?

[RestFermata]

I am sorry for this, but I have to replace out of this game. My life has become absolutely insane. I know that I have hurt this game with my inactivity, and I apologize to everyone, especially the mod, for biting off more than I can chew. I am trying to stay in the other game I'm in because I've been in it for longer and been more active in it, so I feel more connected to it, but this one has to go, and once again, I'm sorry.

[charter]

Looking for a RestFermata replacement. I will give ZazieR 24 more hours to post since she actually replied back with the intent of continuing.

[GhostWriter]

I was asked to analyze DDD, and, honestly, I'm getting more of a town vibe from him than I did before he and Emp started their back-and-forth. I just like how it's being handled.

[Empking]

Not so there's a difference between an unarguably incorrect argument and a arguably correct argument against town.

Correct, but what role does intent factor into the equation?

You can't know intent (apart from your own). You have to look at actions.

You're telling me you never try to understand someone's intent? That you never explore people's possible motivations for their actions?

I look at possible intents but you can't know the player's intent.