MKM II GAME OVER

[caf19]

Vote: ortolan

All of his posts so far scream scum.

[caf19]

Algestrox, the archmage of Festendath, hovered in the air above his archnemesis, Zoratxix. "You fool! You know not how many times I have seen this foolish attempt at defeating me. A simple gun has no effect on the robes of an Archmage. "Ah, but this is no ordinary gun, ignorant one. You behold the handgun of Adolf Hitler himself, loaded with a bullet of pure silver." Aiming high at the flowing vestments of the wizard, the fallen angel fired his message of death at Algestrox. "No!" The bullet cleaved the red robe with a barely audible whistle and lodged itself deeply in Algestrox's chest. He plummeted to the ground, faster and faster, until it seemed that light itself moved slower than him.

"You have failed me, proud one." Algestrox's eyes opened slowly, and if in a stupor of darkness. He beheld the shining eyes of Vardath, his omnipotent master, gazing upon him. "Am I not dead?" he wondered aloud. "No. I have saved your soul from the broken body you see before you." Algestrox looked before him, and saw his robed body cleft in two, lying at the bottom of the Crater of Geteit. "Why, master? I was not worthy of your mercy. I have been insolent, too obsessed with my own power to even excercise caution, let alone weakness." "My child, my plan should not confuse you. Although you fail sometimes in your quest of righteousness and virtue, your soul speaks to me in harmony, unlike all the other humans of this earth on which you live. You must go now. I have the tools with which you shall defeat the evil plague in the form of a man who killed you. Follow your inner wisdom, and I shall always be at your side." Algestrox bowed, and as he rose, a shining robe of purple brilliance descended over his soul, and he lived again.

Heaven opened in front of him, and he saw the sky of the Earth many miles below him. "Master, I place my faith in you," he prayed, and cast his spell of teleportation down to the mountain where he had faced his nemesis. Zoratxix was still there. "Alive? Impossible!" He cast aside his earthly garments to reveal the robes of an Archmage, but black as the pits of Hell. "You, an archmage?" exclaimed Algestrox. "You stupid imbecile. Had you never known that I had power greater than you or your master?" With that, he hurled a flaming sword, materialized out of air, at Algestrox. Algestrox willed the sword away from him with a thought, and the two began a deadly struggle of power and magic. The light around them gleamed in a frenzy of attacks of fire, ice, light, and darkness. Algestrox knew it was time. He shouted unto his master for courage, and drew forth a spear of pure gold from his cloak. With the force of a thousand Ophanim, he stabbed Zoratxix through the heart, and it was over.

wtf you never make posts this long, obv scum

[caf19]

Obv we shouldn't nameclaim. I'm not enthusiastic about calling poptajo scum for it though - it came at a time when nothing productive was going on in the game, so I can see the possibility of him being a townie wanting to spark some discussion being at least as likely as him being scum making an obvious ploy for info.

I'm not liking AceMarksman's pattern of play so far. He seemed to put no thought into his vote - he posts it without explaining it at all. Then he provides justification retrospectively, but it is a highly unimaginative and robotic explanation, along the lines of 'massclaim is bad. Therefore, scum did it'. He doesn't seem prepared to think about people's motivations, etc. and instead just instantly votes for the first obvious questionable action he sees. I can see a potential scum outlook in that.

Unvote, vote AceMarksman

Also, Ive been thinking in another way to possibly break this game.
Law posted in the OP that only some items work regarding alignment. Therefore we can confirm alignments with items, right?

The items get used at night, so we won't be able to confirm who used them.

[caf19]

I know what might help us: do you think claiming the number of votes your vote counts for is a bad idea?

If like MKM1, this is a bad idea, yes. We should also assume that, since there is a real and visible votecount system again.

I didn't play MKM1. Was there something in that game to prevent vote-amount-claiming being a good idea?

[caf19]

Do you not see tajo's action as scummy?

tajo's behaviour so far is the sort that always ends up getting a lot of attention/suspicion in a game. I find that his alignment could go either way, and more analysis will hopefully shed light. Other people at least gave some evaluation up front when they suspected/voted tajo; you appeared to be acting with minimal evaluation and more of a thought process of 'look, here's the first thing i can get away with voting for, let's vote for it'. Hence my suspicion of you.

1. Last game the ONLY reason why town didnt massclaim was the famous Peach clause. (If scum found out who Peach was, game was over).

2. We

apparently

dont have in this game this clause.

3. Therefore, I wanted to evaluate the possibility of name massclaiming. Im not in favor or against it, IM JUST EVALUATING IT with the town.

Hrm. Why didn't you say this in the first place instead of remaining vague about your intentions?

[caf19]

Noncommittal on tajo? Perhaps, but it's genuinely my opinion of him. His behaviour doesn't preclude him from being scum, but I'm not going to jump on him for what he's done so far, as others have done.

[caf19]

anywho, continuing this:

Um, no? Isn't it fairly obvious that bowser's army isn't the informed minority because [blank]

[blank]= there weren't any other player names in your role PM.

Yeah, after a few seconds of confusion I decided I was town because of this and because the win condition looks reasonably like a town one.

We can assume that scum would know that Bowser's army is town and so wouldn't make any obvious mistakes, but assuming there is a DK and a Wario in the game they could still have been caught out by it. Therefore I dont think we can wholly confirm Zwet at this point.

@ Emp, it's kinda obvious that someone was going to ask you for reasons, but I'm going to do it anyway... reasons for your vote plz.
@ Shin, what makes Gorrad likely town and zwet likely anti-town? they have both purported to have done the same thing.

[caf19]

So is the assumption here that basically Law didn't put anything in the scum role pm's that says "Hey, by the way, in case town tries this tactic, here's the list of items that town can buy and their powers"?

Well, I suppose that if we get 17 correct answers then we didn't really lose anything.

No, because there are some roles, like mine, that aren't allowed to buy items.

Does this mean you don't know what they do?

Item questioning seems like a good tactic currently, if we can think up enough questions to make it work. Even if we do end up with a few players claiming not to have been given knowledge of the items, we can just separate them off first and then question everyone else. It's probably not enough to nail scum on its own but it'll give us info.

[caf19]

OP says:

The information of the items you can buy will appear in your role pm

So people who can't buy items probably wouldn't get the info.

Unvote

Shin, why does tajo's question make you consider him anti-town? Is it not possible that he was asking the question purposefully to gauge people's reactions due to the unexpected alignment? Also I don't think you answered my question in 147.

[caf19]

I have item descriptions.

[caf19]

I think that if we can get a group of confirmed townies out of this, then it will be worth it.

[caf19]

Shin, who in particular do you think needs to contribute more? Also, plz stop ignoring the questions I have previously asked you.

[caf19]

You guys are missing the entire point of my plan.

Right now we have 2 possibilities here. Ill comment as soon as EVERYONE has claimed if they have or dont have the items descriptions here.

I assure you that the result will be the confirmation of at least 4 townies.

For some reason, this really irked my scumdar.

Oh, right, withholding information.

I'm not throwing my hat into this until you actually share your thoughts, with a healthy

FoS

attached.

Don't like this post. Pressuring tajo to reveal how he is going to assess people by their itemclaims, which will just make it easier for a scum player to fakeitemclaim without any fear of getting it wrong. You know the risks of itemclaiming as they have been discussed in-thread; given that you didn't mention those, then if you are town you should have no reason to fear itemclaiming. FoS

[caf19]

Nice catch, tajo.

Unvote; Vote: Surye

Whoa, interesting move zwet. Did you read my post? Do you know what rash and non sequiter mean?

You made a Freudian slip of epic proportions.

And why is saying 'unfortunately' indicative of scum? To me it shows a clear disapproval of tajo's play, but I fail to see why that is a scum tell.

[caf19]

Given that Rice is refusing to comply without knowing more, and she's (probably) not going to be told more as that might weaken the plan, I guess we should probably just put her in the "refusing to" column. Which means we're just waiting on Cream now.

[caf19]

Not really.

It

is

opportunistic. You're just voting based on the most recent potentially-voteworthy event that happened. You vote Surye for a perceived slip, no-one follows you, you switch to one of the no-item-claimers as the massitemclaim is nearing completion. Also, what made you pick Empking?

[caf19]

Instead of asking about absolute item values, maybe questions could be about relative item values? (eg. 'out of these two items, which costs more and by how much'). Could avoid the problem Mora pointed out in 462.

Or I could just answer my question already, if people want.

[caf19]

caf19

- out of these two items:

green shell and poison mushroom

, which costs more and by how?

The shroom costs more, by 4.

Incidentally, this line of questioning is only good to confirm 3 people as after that the correct answers can be inferred from previous answers. (yes, this assumes that the first 3 answers are correct, but scum will know that they are correct if 3 townies have already answered. If there is a scumbag in the first 3 people, we'll know already). After the first 3 we'll be able to ask one absolute item value question (if we want to), then we'll have to use facets of the descriptions themselves to confirm the remaining people. Didn't really think about this before, my bad.

I suppose there are other questions we could ask actually, e.g. 'what is the sum of the prices of items x and y'.

[caf19]

Indeed. Looks like we only get 4 questions then, before we move on to description questions. Oh well, that's the same amount we were going to get anyway.

[caf19]

You have handled this plan beyond Piss Poorly. If you had actually stopped to think about your questions you could have gotten five or more item cost questions out of people instead of just four. But due to your lack of thinking things through, you didn't. You fucked that up by asking about cost comparisons in the wrong order.

Really? What order would you have asked them in to prolong the effectiveness of this line of questioning? I can't think of a way.

I also think tajo should answer a question, at least in the interest of fairness.

[caf19]

6. Number of items costing more (or less) than the 10-coin block.

Ok, this question needs to be answered before the absolute value question.

Unless anyone objects, I would like Zwet to answer the question:
How many items cost

more than 8

coins?

[caf19]

Tajo, you're up. Give us the price of any item.

Morat, how many bowser's castle items do not involve killing?

Not sure we should do this one.

Here's a question that I think works. Which item has the potential to have its effect during the

day

?

[caf19]

You all realize (and specialy smeiodlguy) that if we give absolute answers, scum can deduce all the costs of the items, right?

Yes, I realise. I don't see how knowing the costs of all our items is actually going to help the scum though. Can you see a way that it would?

[caf19]

Here's a question for Surye.

When the holder of a bob-omb dies, what happens to it?

a) it gets given to someone else and its trade count gets reset
b) it gets given to someone else and its trade count does not get reset
c) it gets used on someone else
d) it gets used on the person who dies
e) it disappears

Standard fare, raise your hand if you think this question is useless or gives scum too much info or whatever.

[caf19]

They're voting for each other, believe that each other are scum - one of them has to be scum, right?

Or, they could both be town who are misguided into thinking the other is scum. Given that townies don't know who the scum are, this is entirely possible.

yes, i understand this; however, it would be kind of...tactless for me to read off something from my role pm when i don't understand the full mechanics of the game. ill get back to you after i read the entire thread, tajo...

If this is your opinion, why were you so happy to vote without reading the thread? Isn't that just as tactless?

Zwet, don't play to purposefully annoy people please.

Zeenon, hello. Answer the question in 602 please.

[caf19]

That'll do for an answer, Zeenon.

Everyone who declared item knowledge has answered a question now. Discussion understandably got bogged down a bit during this episode, so I'm hoping it continues to pick up now. I'll do my bit:

ortolan seems to be a popular choice but I think I prefer Looker. I don't think the posts qwints flagged up preclude Shin from being scum at all. Declaring Bowser's Army as the town isn't a town tell, given that scum had that knowledge and were probably more sure about it in general than the town. She was also using that knowledge to try and convict another player - one who, given the current info, I have to say is probably town. Furthermore, Shin ignored questions I asked her multiple times. Looker himself has also made a decidedly unsatisfactory start. All aspects of his play (not just the early vote) seem to have a 'tactless' element to them so I don't really buy his refusal to talk about items on those grounds.

vote: Looker

Will reassess when he gets round to reading the whole thread and posting responses/opinions.

[caf19]

Seeing as we're approaching deadline and I seem to have 5 votes on me, you may ask me a question about the items, I do in fact have the descriptions and have no intention of being another deadline lynch driven by scum as per Election Mafia.

How many of the items might end up getting used on a different person to the one you originally send them to/use them on?

[caf19]

two

That's not what I make it. Either you are scum or misunderstood the question, which is possible because it is slightly open to interpretation. Perhaps this will help: Is the poison shroom one of the 'two' in your answer?

[caf19]

Regarding vagueness of questions, it's to stop giving too much info to scum. If a townie asks an obvious question and another townie gives the answer, it's easy for scum to work out item mechanics. Even if there is some confusion over question meanings, as there has been, it's usually possible to discern whether the answerer is telling the truth through the way they handle this (which, again, is largely what happened here).

Anyway, I'm not particularly fond of an ortolan lynch today. Can someone sum up the case on Shadow Knight for me? (or link me to a summary, if there is one already and I missed it in all the activity).

[caf19]

If you say that one version of an item cannot be redirected, then this implies that the other version can

That's not the part of your reasoning I found to be wrong...

[caf19]

You are going to send me a letter tonight with the value of "x" where "x" is the times the bomb can be passed without triggering. Everyone agrees with this?

I approve of this product and/or service

[caf19]

ort has done enough to justify his survival now.

SK isn't entirely incriminated by Ace and Gorrad's convictions since the possibitilty of him telling the truth is still there. On the other hand, his defences do have something of a 'retrospective' feel to them. After being called out for slipping, he just goes 'oh, um, I was only assuming that', something he didn't mention before, and continues on...

So, I still think Looker is the best choice, but SK probably isn't a bad one either. Given Looker's out-of-the-blue unvote of SK, there's a chance they could both be scum.

[caf19]

I'm willing to visible-hammer, but we should hear from the quiet people (Looker, RBT, k7, cream) first.

[caf19]

Nightkill proves that yesterday was a calculated scum gambit.

How does it 'prove' it, zwet?

[caf19]

Ok, so here's my take on things.

As other people have said, we are basically back to square one regarding the confirmation plan now. I think it is more sensible to assume that qwints knew the item prices rather than just guessing lucky. Even if he had somehow worked out that the red shell cost 2 more than the green, he would have had to declare that he knew item prices without knowing what question he was going to get, and with only a minute chance of that question coming up.

So, it's a safe assumption that some scum have knowledge of items, and some don't. But presumably, last night the scum who did have knowledge would have told all the scum who don't. So now they all do, probably. Of course we don't know exactly the extent of their knowledge, but it's probably best to err on the side of caution - this means that if you're intending to use an item at night from now on, shells are probably a better option, because we have to assume that scum know how the other two work.

I'm not essentially opposed to the discussion of NKs, if they are unexpected ones as last night's was. However, in this case there are so many possibilities that I don't think it will be fruitful at this stage. Maybe the scum NK by buying and using their items, and they couldn't afford any (Shadow Knight was their richest player, or something)? Maybe the scum's NK got redirected? Random vidgeing? Who knows. It could be useful later, but I don't see a lot of conclusions that we can draw right now.

Anyway, onto today.

I know about his meta and the shallow waters blah blah, but seriously, zwet is scummy. Now that he's not 'confirmed' anymore , I can't help but note that he is 'playing up' to his meta. He is tunneling with woefully inadequate reasoning, purposefully exaggerating the aggressiveness and dumbness of his posts in order that people will go 'oh, it's just zwet being zwet'. And it seems to be working - a decent wagon is building up on tajo. I'm not really a fan of the tajo wagon, he's too much of an easy target. (and so is zwet, you might respond, except that nobody is going after zwet...)

Also, I was suspicious of Looker yesterday and still am today. Check out how qwints tried to clear him in 646, and the out-of-the-blue unvote of SK in 818. Looker needs to start posting ftw so I can further assess him.

More later.

[caf19]

2) @caf19: Have you played a game with zwetschenwasser before?

I played a marathon game with him once. As scum, with my partner I managed to get him lynched, only to find that he was the lynchee. >.<

[caf19]

mod: this is a quote of post 1008

Needless to say, I can't really believe you off the back of this sort of vague reference. Am I to take from this that tajo proposed a massclaim in another game and ended up being scum, or what? If you really can't say anything about this unconfirmable meta, I humbly request that you give us some instances of where tajo has been scummy in-thread.

I could go with a Gorrad lynch right now.

Did you just read the name of the last person who got suspected in-thread, and decide you wanted them lynched? Or do you actually have reasons for this?

As for my opinion, Kast's points against Gorrad are justified but I don't find that evidence such as an unwillingness to discuss NKs is in itself enough to make him scum. So, while they do point out the illogicality of his principles, the effect they have on his likelihood of being scum is minor.

Incidentally, I'm kinda wondering why Gorrad's activity has jumped so much. He's posted about as many posts in the 48ish hours of today as he did all of yesterday. Newfound vigour, perhaps?

[caf19]

So your saying that Shadow Knight predicted that the item claim plan would get him lynched, and so then claimed that he had no item descriptions five days after the game started, all as an elaborate Day 1 self-bussing maneuver to put tajo in a better light?

Did I hear that correctly?

YES

Seriously zwet, I can't believe that even you would think this to be true. Are you just doing this to get reactions? Are you scum?

[caf19]

At first I found Gorrad a bit overanxious to hear from sirdan, but now his silence is a bit awkward (not that I have posted much, but I think it's different from someone who joined from outside the game). Still, I find Gorrad's reactions a bit off.

I don't think tajo is from the Mushroom Kingdom, and I don't really like his wagon. Somehow I suspect him to be Wario or something.

Someone else who I find scummy because he's being opportunistic is caf19.

I know about his meta and the shallow waters blah blah, but seriously, zwet is scummy. Now that he's not 'confirmed' anymore , I can't help but note that he is 'playing up' to his meta. He is tunneling with woefully inadequate reasoning, purposefully exaggerating the aggressiveness and dumbness of his posts in order that people will go 'oh, it's just zwet being zwet'. And it seems to be working - a decent wagon is building up on tajo. I'm not really a fan of the tajo wagon, he's too much of an easy target. (and so is zwet, you might respond, except that nobody is going after zwet...)

Feels a bit like if tajo pops up town, he can say 'i told you so', and then go after zwet. He rubbed me wrong day 1 too, but I can't pinpoint exactly what. Hope to do a reread this weekend.

Have to say, this post is full of fail.

Firstly, you think tajo might be a third party role but you don't like the wagon on him? Doesn't make sense.

Secondly, all I'm doing is saying I don't like the tajo wagon, which is roughly what you also did in this post If that's setting myself up for an 'i told you so', then so be it. It's not what my intention is, but in any case I don't see what's inherently scummy about that, unless you are implying that it's because I'm scum who knows tajo is town already. If so, what's the basis?

Thirdly, you seem to assume that there is something inherently wrong with 'going after zwet'. Is there, when he's constantly making craplogic-ridden, anti-town posts? Do you think zwet is town?

-

1.Can we assume that Wario in DK are scum in this game? Because if we do, Im pretty sure they are on the "I refuse to" or "I dont have item descriptions".

They are down as different alignments in the item section of the OP. So I think it's a good assumption that they are third party still.

2. Does everyone think that we can at least have one scum in the "I refuse to" or "I dont have item descriptions"? Or do you think that SK was the only one that didnt have item descriptions?

Not really possible to say with any certainty, but I'd hazard that the scum are spread fairly evenly over both the 'haves' and 'have nots'.

-

Morat, please shut up if you have no case. Policy lynching is bad at this stage.

Perhaps, but Morat also seems to agree with my case, which is built around the fact that you are purposefully being anti-town and know you can get away with it due to your meta. So it's not exclusively a policy lynch.

You claimed Wario!

Please at least make an attempt to explain your conclusion. If you don't, I'll have no choice but to assume that it is of the same quality as the rest of your conclusions, which is to say, tripe.

[caf19]

He was very eager to describe the previous Wario role to me. It seemed too eager, in fact.

I feel like an idiot for actually going through and detailing what is wrong with this, but for the sake of logical argument I will do so anyway.

1) You asked him to do so, twice.
2) In my opinion, it is more suspicious to ignore questions than to answer them.
3) Being eager to talk about Wario in the previous game doesn't mean you are Wario anyway. Really, I can see no correlation between the two.
4) Your tactic of 'ask someone a question then vote them because they answered it' is an incredibly scummy entrapment process. I can't believe anyone in the world would do this from a pro-town perspective. Die.

vote zwet

[caf19]

I have a shell that

I think

protects me from nightkills

Please explain.

This.

[caf19]

@ Gorrad: why would you automatically infer that when you didn't create sirdanilot in this game, it'd mean scum created it? I don't think there are magic users in the Mushroom Kingdom that could summon a Toad or something. It would be too powerful if scum could summon new players that easily. If it costs a lot of coins as you say, I doubt anyone could buy it first night.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about this. If town have a source of getting people to jump in, it's entirely likely that the scum have one too - it just has to be quite hard for them to do it to keep the game balanced. I've been thinking about what the scum items do, and I think the 1-up mushroom would probably fit flavour-wise the mechanic of bringing people 'to life' so they can jump in. Obviously, this would cost a lot of coins.

Given that the scum didn't seem to get an NK last night, this might imply that they used their coins on a 1-up shroom instead. Obviously there's quite a heavy amount of speculation involved in this, which is why I'm not piling onto a danilot vote (also, we have zwet). Point is, it's very possible that scum have a jumping in mechanic and Gorrad's point shouldn't just be dismissed like that.

Your vote on Gorrad is badly placed, imo.

[caf19]

Ok, zwet's claim didn't present us with any huge reasons not to lynch him.

His claim wasn't a huge disaster but is weak and nebulous enough that it could easily have come from scum. The fire-resistance seems to fit flavour-wise, but obviously scum would know their own killing methods. It's something that could have been fabricated without too much trouble.

Then again, the nagging voice in the back of my head tells me that for a zwetclaim, 'not a disaster' is probably the best thing you're going to get...

ort, how certain exactly does your info make you that zwet is town?

[caf19]

ort, how certain exactly does your info make you that zwet is town?

I can think of a plausible hypothesis whereby what he said is perfectly credible.

Namely if his pm simply said he had immunity to fire.

I could think of that too, but it's not really an overwhelming indicator of townness the alternative hypothesis, that he is scum who has knowledge of all the NK methods and resistances, is just as likely.

[caf19]

I don't think Looker should claim.

Yesterday I found him very suspicious; today he hasn't really made any meaningful posts. We can get more out of him - there's no need to rush at this stage.

Looker, you need to make an effort to catch up with your reading, or at least tell us who you think is scummy from the recent posts or what you've read so far. It's for your own good, because if you don't then I'll be forced to rely only on my read of you from yesterday; i.e. that you're scummy.

[caf19]

I'm still generally up for a zwet lynch, but if support for it is waning then I'll have to look at other options. Reread time.

VOTE:Tajo

You need to stop bringing up your plan as how great and wonderful it makes you. Yes it killed a scum, but you could have easily done it intentionally to bus. Leading a lynch on scum D1 doesn't make you town. Especially when you backed off right before the actual lynch.

These are all reasons why tajo isn't obvtown, not why he is anti-town. What do you think makes him scum?

[caf19]

I'm still

generally

up for a zwet lynch,

but if support for it is waning then I'll have to look at other options.

Reread time.

Good use of unexplained bolding. I assume you're implying that I'm scummy for just going along with other people's opinions. If that's the case, I don't really care if you think it's scummy. That post is exactly how I felt at the time. I've been focusing on zwet and if I can't get him lynched then I'll have to widen the search.

I'll reread this guy some time. He seems to fall in the same category as WLC, as well as quints on day 1 (now flipped scum). Posting reasonably regularly, although not ubiquitous, and posting content as well as scummy things like these. Short periods of absence are common.

How is any of this a scumtell?

Ok, zwet's claim didn't present us with any huge reasons not to lynch him.

His claim wasn't a huge disaster but is weak and nebulous enough that it could easily have come from scum. The fire-resistance seems to fit flavour-wise, but obviously scum would know their own killing methods. It's something that could have been fabricated without too much trouble.

Then again, the nagging voice in the back of my head tells me that for a zwetclaim, 'not a disaster' is probably the best thing you're going to get...

ort, how certain exactly does your info make you that zwet is town?

lol blatant zwet lynch push. wiffle waffle I am sitting comfortably on my fence.

I was voting zwet at the time (still am) and it's fairly obvious I wanted him lynched. What kind of a fence is that?

In his last line he is doing something we could interpret as rolefishing but maybe that would be just a

tiny bit

too fast...

It's not rolefishing when you consider that at the time, there were people who were just flat out asking ortolan to reveal his roleinfo. This was a more useful and less potentially anti-town approach.

[caf19]

Also, Looker posted even though he's getting replaced. Wha?

[caf19]

1. Oui/Yes/Sí/Ja . And how you're generally up for a zwet lynch. Keeping all options open. As if you weren't looking for other people while the zwet thing was still popular opinion. In fact I have no reason not to believe the latter, since you're probably scum who don't have to scumhunt by definition.

I'm not interested in 'keeping my options open'. Case in point: I've stated my distaste for the wagon on tajo (who is the other common object of suspicion today).

2. Refusal to defend yourself will unfortunately not help you here. It looks like you aren't able to defend yourself. Pro-tip: defending yourself is pro-town.
3. I think that a reread is in order to address this since I think it would be very interesting to find out who you 'suspected' before all this.

A general summary: yesterday Looker was my main suspect and he got my vote. Now that line has kind of died due to Looker not posting and being replaced - there's nothing there to analyse or interact with. As you can see from my post 991, Looker and zwet were my suspects, but the disappearance of Looker led the bulk of my posting to be focused on zwet. Given that my focus had narrowed down like that, it felt natural to try to widen it again.

The purpose of pressuring and claiming (something which I think shouldn't have hapened at the time but that aside) is to show if someone is scum. The fact that zwet is not a confirmed towny doesn't give you any reasons to lynch him. (insert rant about why the english language doesn't support trivial dutch words like 'wel' rendering me unable to express exactly what I meant and having me resort to things like bolding blablabla)
Since his claim 'wasn't a huge disaster'. Your main point is basically, 'it could have come from scum' and 'scum could have fabricated it'. All in all, not more than you know of a normal person who hasn't claimed yet.

All this isn't that bad per se. You are not scummy for pointing out that the claim wasn't decisive of zwet's alignment one way or another. But you are scummy for wanting to lynch him

solely

because of that, while it is no reason to lynch zwet!

You can now only lynch zwet if you have additional reasons.

For example role related reasons of other people, and play style elements etc. For the former, we haven't really had anything conclusive, since gorrad says he's scum and ort says he's town, with neither of them providing reasons, and I haven't seen you give a convincing play style based case on zwet. But as I said I need to reread you.

[bolding mine]

Fail. Please see my posts 991, 1052, 1084 etc. for places where I build up several reasons to lynch zwet which have nothing to do with his claim (he hadn't claimed at that point). At this point, zwet seems overwhelmingly scum to me, so his claim should only convince me to unvote if it contains strong info that indicates town alignment. As it was, his claim was quite weak and could easily have been invented. Why should I back off solely due to that?

What would you have done if the answer was 'very certain'? What if it was 'probably'? Wouldn't that information be potentially helpful to the scum? Oh whoops that's you.

Not as helpful to them as ortolan fully revealing his role-related info. As it happened, it now seems to me that ort doesn't have any more info than I do and he is just forming different conclusions from it. So, no problem.

So, sirdan, do you think zwet is scum or not? (preview edit: Mora asked more or less the same question. Get answerin'.)

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Unvote

Vote ThAdmiral

Ah, Shin/Looker, you were scum after all. <3

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I don't really think that ort has role-related info, or is softclaiming to that effect. I just think that he has a tendency to become incredibly sure of himself (it's the same sort of thing as when he said zwet is town). This doesn't really impact on ort's likely role or alignment at all.

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Did_ _ K o _ _ is the name.

this is my personal favourite part

Also, you win with the MK? Not with DK crew?

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I almost feel sorry for millar. Outed by his own honesty.

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Also, I think millar's slip is way worse than ThAdmiral's.

Do you not think ThAdmiral is scum?

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Yesterday, Law told us which post the lynch was achieved at, so if he does that again we shouldn't lose any info.

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Vote millar

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Vote millar

^scum here

not for the opportunistic hammer, but for the lack of content.

Fail. Do I really need to explain my reasons for voting millar?

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sirdan, I really don't understand the case you are pushing on me at all. It's like you just decided I'm scum and then started tunnelling with random points on me regardless of their relevance... yesterday was a non-day where we had basically already decided to lynch millar. I don't see what tangible difference a couple of extra sentences would have made.

Anyway, all my prior suspects are dead. So, um, yeah, I'll have to rethink stuff.

Hey Riceball, what do you think about the game? You've lurked so hard, I can barely tell.

This also applies to killa seven. k7, you haven't mentioned anyone except zwet (who flipped town now) in forever. Get to postin'.

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vote: Kast

Gut but I'll look to see if I can find something to support it.

*twitch*

Has k7 even posted at all the last 10 pages?

mod please replace out k7 while we can before he posts a useless post and denies us the right to replace him out

how rude

Care to share any suspicions with us?

Also I just noticed we've also had epic silence from ZEEnon recently. What's up, ZEEnon?

-

Anyway, there are two things that I find unsettling about Gorrad's claimed role: firstly, why a role like that would claim so early when it seems so important to the town, and secondly, why he hasn't been killed yet.

The first one does seem to have a plausible solution, which is that he claimed in the hope of confirming sirdan as scum (due to the jumping in mechanic). Incidentally, Gorrad, what do you think of sirdan these days?

The second one, I'm not so sure about. Can you offer any explanation, Gorrad?

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I believe Gorrad has the skills he says he has. The only doubt is that he could be DK/Wario and have them. However, I don't see why a third party role would get an investigation skill when they don't care all that much about finding scum - so, I'm inclined to think he is town right now.

Given that this implies ortolan is also town, our options are narrowing somewhat...

One player who I'm not happy with is Zeenon. Since he replaced in, he's flipflopped on the Shadow Knight lynch (compare 846 with 861) and on subsequent days he's hardly posted anything that isn't IIOA. Even taking into account the pile-on-fests that were ThAdmiral and millar, it's impossible to work out who he suspected on D2 (and there was plenty of discussion D2 before ThAdmiral came along, so this isn't something common to everyone).

@ ZEEnon: who do you suspect? What have they done to deserve your suspicion? Got any observations from Day 2 (or 3)?

--

@ Empking: Found anything suspicious about Kast yet?
@ sirdan: If I'm obvscum, why aren't you voting for me?

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Gorrad, have you created a vanilla townie for us as of yet?
I think that would be both extremely useful to us.

@ ZEEnon: who do you suspect? What have they done to deserve your suspicion? Got any observations from Day 2 (or 3)?

Things were extremely rushed those days, and I was incredibly annoyed to see
that millar1 was lynched without me being able to analyze the situation.
Hell, did you guys even allow him to claim? As for my suspicions, I was thinking populartajo. Looks like I was incorrect.
As for the living players, I think that Gorrad and subsequently, ortolan, are town.
I'm quite unsure about everyone else to be honest, as I have not been regularly following this game.

Meh, not a very satisfactory response... not sure exactly what to think of it, but it largely indicates a lack of reading. Please hurry up and reread days 2 and 3 (it shouldn't take that long) and let us know your suspicions (and also whether or not you approve of the Empking wagon).

I don't think the case on Empking is that strong. I agree that his relative lack of input, or explanations for his votes, is not pro-town. However, the case that he is lynch-worthy because he was late onto wagons doesn't hold true, at least not in this case. For ThAdmiral and millar, I don't really find that the order of the votes matters - in both cases, everyone was certain they were scum so they were just going to pile on at the first opportunity. Normally, looking towards the end of the wagon might be a good idea, but in these two cases scum would have had no problem getting on the wagons early (since they were obvlynches anyway).

Empking is one of the 'quiet people' along with Zeenon and k7 (and probably RBT), but I find his play slightly less objectionable because he has at times put votes/opinions on the line - Zee and k7 have demonstrated much less of a willingness to stick their necks out.

Mod, please prod killa seven

Oh, as for RBT... Before 1620 she wasn't willing to reveal much about herself, not proffering many non-obvious opinions apart from extended tunnelling on tajo. I don't agree with much of the stuff she says in 1620, but I feel that's mostly due to it being a low level of analysis than to her being scum trying to achieve a mislynch. I don't like the way she has left herself 'outs' with quite a few players though, mentioning something scummy even if she says they're town (possibly in order to justify switching to them later if they become a feasible wagon).

@ RBT, why is post 1551 voteworthy on its own?

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Zee and k7 have demonstrated much less of a willingness to stick their necks out.

My vote is worth -1.
Unless you want a lynch to take that much longer, you won't want me to start voting who I suspect.

Ok, so not voting is fine, but you didn't even say who you suspected throughout Day 2... you're not excused of that.

How am i antitown?

Mainly because you don't contribute to the scumhunt and you remain unreadable. If this continues, then you might end up getting killed out of mere utility, which further hurts whatever team you're on. So get scumhuntin'.

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Emp, please post more than one-word responses... if you only say "Liar", I can't exactly work out what you are referring to or why you believe he's lying. It doesn't help your case.

Still more of the same from killa and Zee, we're coming to a bit of an impasse here...

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Emp, please post more than one-word responses... if you only say "Liar", I can't exactly work out what you are referring to or why you believe he's lying. It doesn't help your case.

Still more of the same from killa and Zee, we're coming to a bit of an impasse here...

You think I only post onre word responses?

You did here:

@Empking-
-Post an example of me calling you scummy for posting a new point.

-Please try to be consistent. I pointed out that your post failed to address the post it was responding to. You answered that you were making a new point. If you are making a new point instead of addressing the old point, then you are not addressing that old point.

-I have pointed out the examples but here again for your convenience:

I posted a series of thoughts about you. Instead of addressing them, you called me a liar without any elaboration. On further clarification, it turns out you don't understand the meaning of the word implicit and so thought that I was lying. In either event, you attempted to avoid answering my points by calling me a liar (the straw man).

Liar

and that's the bit I was referring to in my post.

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Emp, please post more than one-word responses... if you only say "Liar", I can't exactly work out what you are referring to or why you believe he's lying. It doesn't help your case.

Still more of the same from killa and Zee, we're coming to a bit of an impasse here...

You think I only post onre word responses?

You did here:

@Empking-
-Post an example of me calling you scummy for posting a new point.

-Please try to be consistent. I pointed out that your post failed to address the post it was responding to. You answered that you were making a new point. If you are making a new point instead of addressing the old point, then you are not addressing that old point.

-I have pointed out the examples but here again for your convenience:

I posted a series of thoughts about you. Instead of addressing them, you called me a liar without any elaboration. On further clarification, it turns out you don't understand the meaning of the word implicit and so thought that I was lying. In either event, you attempted to avoid answering my points by calling me a liar (the straw man).

Liar

and that's the bit I was referring to in my post.

You think people should never ever respond to a point with one word?

Not exactly, but in this case it might be helpful... please expand on why Kast is lying.

[caf19]

This 'blood from a stone' affair with Emp is frustrating... Emp, you often seem to select only a small part of the accusations against you, respond to that and ignore the rest.

For example, can you explain the discrepancy between this in 1712:

- So you don't think Gorrad is scumhunting?

and this in 1716:

-Where do you get the impression that I don't think Gorrad is scumhunting?

I don't

Also, what is 1725 referring to?

Especially given this game's relative dearth of entirely unconfirmable and vanilla roles, Emp's claim shouldn't prevent a lynch. However, I don't think the lynch is cemented yet due to a few people (k7, Zee, ort) not having weighed in with their thoughts. So the day should definitely not end yet. I'm certainly not sold - his earlier posts do seem consistent with his claimed role and BA alignment.

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If we are going to wagon someone, I'd kinda prefer it to be Zeenon than k7. I figure we have more chance of getting something out of Zee. But, they could avoid all this by actually contributing...

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Echoing the opinion that a massclaim is not needed right now.

@ k7: What do you think of Empking?

[caf19]

@ k7: What do you think of Empking?

Please answer!
-

Anyway, apologies for lack of posts... the game appears to have reached something of an impasse. It feels suboptimal to throw a vote on just for the sake of speeding things up, but I may do that soon.

Oh, by the way - @ Zee, have you always had a -1 vote? If not, any reason for suddenly getting it?

[caf19]

I agree with Ort that caf shouldn't jump on the Empking wagon unless he actually suspects Empking. When it hits deadline, Empking will have a plurality of real votes and will be lynched.

Perhaps I was unclear. When I mentioned not throwing a vote on, I was actually talking about a vote for killa or Zee - I don't want to vote for Emp.

I will throw a vote down now because it's closer to deadline than I realised...

Vote ZEEnon

didn't want it to come to this but it has. Today it's been really hard to analyse the game, and that's been due in part to the unwillingness of players like Zee and killa to contribute. While killa seems to be doing it out of stubbornness to defend his playstyle, Zee's motivations appear more scummy to me as he has more of a tendency to 'hide'. Even in the later stages of today he's just 'cruising', posting the occasional minimal offering. Waiting for a townie to get mislynched?

Also, while Zeenon's actions support his claim of having a -1 vote, it should be noted that Surye voted for Shinnen (it was his only vote). Trying to protect a scum buddy?

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Don't have time for a long post right now (hopefully i'll get one in before deadline), but i'll just say i'm keeping my vote on Zee. His defence didn't impress me at all.

Emp is still at a deadline majority i think, so i'm not endangering anything.

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I would personally be fine massclaiming today. Law's rule stating that massclaiming is not recommended does ring a small alarm bell, but I don't know what that could be referring to at this point, so I'd be fine going ahead with it.

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I am a paragoomba (a goomba with wings that flies. Ya know, the ones that pissed you off in all of the mario games?). Every night, I can drop microgoombas on a player that prevents them from jumping on someone and reduces their vote count for the next day.

Is there a Mario game that paragoombas could do this in?

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My vote is currently worth 1, and I'd have no qualms using it on k7 as required.

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Actually, there's not much point hanging around, I was planning to wait to see how much RBT's vote is worth but it doesn't matter that much because k7 isn't in immediate danger of lynching.

Vote killa seven

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I'm not trying to quicklynch you, k7... the point of this exercise is that you

don't

get lynched. Unless you're lying, in which case, you should be lynched because you're probably scum...

[caf19]

I think that given we've had a 'visible hammer', we're going to get a real votecount no matter what. So we just have to wait a bit.

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Kast has 2 votes, I have 1 and RBT has 0. (or so we're claiming)

So if Ace has 1 vote, then k7 has 0. k7 claimed to have a zero-vote, but Ace claimed to have lowered it. It's possible that his power can't lower a vote-number below 0.

I think the best way to proceed is to organise the rest of the massclaim before we end the day... who hasn't claimed yet? Ort, me, sirdan, Zee, RBT?

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I'm pretty sure that we wouldn't have two town-aligned players with a double vote, by the way.

Why's that?

[caf19]

I think Zee should claim now, and after that we proceed popcorn-style, since the order of who's scummiest is probably a matter of some contention. Does that sound fair?

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Hai everyone. I'm a Hammer Bro.

Naturally, I have to hammer. If I hammer (in the real or visible vote count), I get a coin bonus, immunity to being jumped on that night, and a double vote the next day.

Most days I've tried to hammer in some way. D1, I was intending to hammer, but Law closed the thread before I could due to the effect of double-voters. D2 I placed what would have been the visible hammer but I was confounded by ort's vote not counting. D3 I actually managed it! (and hey sirdan, this might explain why my vote didn't have any other content, I wasn't gonna wait around and miss my chance )

That night, I used my newfound coins to buy an item and use it to kill zwet. (you can thank me all for that now) Also, the mysterious double vote on Zeenon yesterday was mine. It's back to 1 today.

[caf19]

If anyone wants more details about my coin counts at various stages, I can provide them.

Also, RBT please claim next.

[caf19]

I believe caf's claim so far. How many coins bonus do you get for hammering caf?

I get 4. (I also started with 4, which is how I could afford an item N3)

[caf19]

I thought he was scum.

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I started with two votes, and can sacrifice voting power to vig a player. I did so N1 by killing Qwints. I haven't used it again since due to it costing me two votes and my likelihood of hitting scum being lowered thanks to getting two lynched and one vig'd.

This doesn't make sense. You only used your ability once, and yet you've lost both your votes? Surely that means you can't use it again, and not that you're choosing not to as you seem to be implying.

Also, why'd you kill qwints? He passed the item test which we still largely believed in at that point, he doesn't seem like an obvious vidge choice at all.

[caf19]

Oh, bah.