The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[The Fonz]

Your candidacy.

Because you seem like a rational guy, but at the same time a newer player who could do with the bully pulpit of a doublevote to encourage you to grasp the nettle.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Izzy: Are you waiting on the answer to something?

Aside from Xtoxm's role reveal when he's lynched, not right now. Rather, I'm waiting for the question that would get the afore mentioned answer to make itself apparent.

[The Fonz]

Well, since, y'know, we have to pick a mayor before that happens...

[Juls]

Submitting for the record some Xtoxm meta:

He was town and claimed mafia.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 951#858951

He was scum and claimed mafia

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 475#980475

He was scum and claimed scum

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53#1067853

He claimed mason relatively early w/ a preplanned gambit (see second link)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=212
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=215

This was a shoot-style game...I replaced out and don't remember the exact context but I remember he claimed something different about his gun early...he was SK

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10997


So, this is why I say he likes to gambit and he likes to claim. I think I am forgetting one but can't recall the game. Maybe the UPick in marathon that never gained traction?

[MikeSC6]

So he's experienced at false-claiming? Would a person with such experience really act like he has? I can't see it- there was no subtlety about it right from the first post. And if it's a completely fabricated gambit, why would he choose a role that we can test right away, if we want to?

[Juls]

My guess is he wanted to be lynched for some reason. I don't know what that reason is though? That is where I am not experienced enough to judge.

[The Fonz]

It's hard to answer Mike's post without getting into a massive pile of WIFOM.

[MikeSC6]

It's hard to answer Mike's post without getting into a massive pile of WIFOM.

Yeah, I was just musing out loud, really- I didn't expect any affirmative answer from anyone. That first link shows that he's not averse to messing with his side to get out of games he doesn't want to play- so the "innocent" thing could be true, but not the "unlynchable" thing.

On the other hand, the "unlynchable" thing could be true, and the "innocent" thing not- as he tried to get a lynch attempt from us, and falsely claimed that would make him a confirmed innocent when he survives it, which is scummy.

Thanks for searching out those games by the way- actively seeking meta. Juls for major? (I know, it's mayor )

[Shadow Knight]

I think we should elect a mayor based on everyone putting up 2 candidates. The player mentioned the most gets the position. Then we decide whether we should lynch Xtoxm or direct the vig to kill him (assuming we have a vig). If we really fear the possibility of a Jester role or a variant, then vigging is the best way to get rid of him. We can also make that a part of the election process, so that the vig knows he is acting in accordance with the wishes of the town. (Usually, I'm very much against a vig firing on Night 1 or 2 unless they have a *strong* suspicion of guilt.) If the majority think we should vig or leave him alone, we move on and start looking at other people to lynch. If the majority think we should test his claim, we lynch him and move to night.

So in the interests of getting this moving and providing a standard so we all set it up the same:

Elect: Battle Mage or The Fonz
Xtoxm: Lynch

(as opposed to Xtoxm: Vig or Xtoxm: Leave Alone)

[Yosarian2]

You know, I'm getting tired of WIFOMing Xtoxm's stuff back and fourth here with absolutely no input from him.

Let's let him come back and answer some of the questions about him, explain his role in a little more detail, ect. If he dosn't do so in the next few days, I'll probably vote him just for lurking at this point.

[zwetschenwasser]

Unvote; Vote Juls for mayor

Latest X metaing very pro-town.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Vote Count in Progress

Vote Count for Mayor: ACCURATE

(5)Battle Mage: Shadow Knight, Gorrad, Battle Mage, Jahudo, knox,
(4)The Fonz: Yosarian2, Mufasa, Dr Pepper, Juls
(1)Xtoxm: Xtoxm,
(1)Shadow Knight: The Fonz
(1)Juls: zwetschenwasser
(1)Yosarian2: Barrylocke
(1)DizzyIzzyB13: DizzyIzzyB13
(1)Percy: dingoatemybaby,
(0)Jahudo:
()MikeSC6:
(0)Dr Pepper:
()Barrylocke:
()dingoatemybaby:
()Firestarter:
()Gorrad:
()knox:
()Mufasa:
()Shinnen_no_Me:
()ZONEACE:
()Ztife:
()zwetschenwasser:

Not voting: Firestarter, Shinnen_no_Me, ZONEACE, Ztife, Juls, Percy, MikeSC6

Vote Count for Lynch ACCURATE

(4)Xtoxm: Battle Mage, Gorrad, DizzyIzzyB13, Dr Pepper
(2)Ztife: Percy, Shadow Knight
(1)Jahudo: Juls
(1)Gorrad: Xtoxm
(1)DizzyIzzyB13: dingoatemybaby
(1)Mufasa: Mufasa
(1)zwetschenwasser: Ztife
()Battle Mage:
()The Fonz:
()Juls:
()Dr Pepper:
()Percy:
()MikeSC6:
()Barrylocke:
()dingoatemybaby:
()Firestarter:
()knox:
()Shadow Knight:
()Shinnen_no_Me:
()Yosarian2:
()ZONEACE:

Not voting: Firestarter, Shinnen_no_Me, ZONEACE, Juls, The Fonz, zwetschenwasser, Yosarian2, knox, MikeSC6, Barrylocke, Jahudo

With 21 votes in play it will take 11 to lynch or elect.

ZONEACE and Firestarter have been prodded.

[Battle Mage]

elect: Battle Mage or Shadow Knight

Xtoxm: Lynch

BM

[MikeSC6]

Elect: Juls or the Fonz (Doesn't need to be in bold, while it's not "official"- can't vote for two...)

[DizzyIzzyB13]

elect: DizzyIzzyB13 or Juls

Xtoxm: Lynch, ASAP

[zwetschenwasser]

WHY DO WE NEED THE WIFOM OF A XTOXM LYNCH. UNVOTE DIZZY!

[DizzyIzzyB13]

WHY DO WE NEED THE WIFOM OF A XTOXM LYNCH. UNVOTE DIZZY!

...what?

[Firestarter]

Ok... apologies MOD, I was watching the topic below for start time... DOH..


http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11103

___________

Anyways, Im reading now and will post some thoughts shortly all.

[zwetschenwasser]

WHY DO WE NEED THE WIFOM OF A XTOXM LYNCH. UNVOTE DIZZY!

...what?

You heard me.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

WHY DO WE NEED THE WIFOM OF A XTOXM LYNCH. UNVOTE DIZZY!

...what?

You heard me.

Make sense, please.

[zwetschenwasser]

Unvote. Now.

[MikeSC6]

Unvote. Now.

While I agree that we shouldn't be lynching Xtoxm just yet- what are your reasons for why we shouldn't? Do you have an alternative plan of action?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

[quote="zwetschenwasser"]Unvote. Now.[/quote

No. Xtoxm lynch is necessary.

[zwetschenwasser]

IT'S A PILE OF WIFOM!

[Firestarter]

The game so far is represented with quotes/thoughts/notes..

Xtoxm with a soft claim?
Win condition?

Also I'm probably not the best mayor candidate. I like to think I'm pro-town when I'm town but I've been wrong about who's scum alot of times. In fact, that's my meta as town.

This part of one of Jahudo's posts early on grabbed my attention.
Scared of the Mayor position? Why?
If one feels pro-town as town, its far easier than being pro-town as scum imo. Particluraly early doors.
Majority choices will be clearer, its harder for scum-mayor to choose a scum option and then try to get away with it. With all players still in the game, scum will find it harder to mis-lynch.

I'll

Unvote Xtomx for Lynch

(for now) and throw my vote on a lurker!

Vote Ztife for Lynch

.

Voting for a lurker 87 posts in?

Actually I think if X is scum and has partners, him being mayor is a bad idea even if he does die since he can select the next mayor.

This has been overlooked till now, but if Xtomx is scum and is lynched, what are the chances he'll choose a partner next?
Set-up for mis-lynch/various mis-lynches?

You think Xtoxm may be a vampire but still want to lynch him? And you wanted him to be mayor (as of this post)? I don't follow your logic. Plus, I don't like you saying that you have a "meta" of not finding scum. I have seen you play very well as town...granted its been in marathons but that is even a harder scenario for town. I have also seen you play very well as scum. Can you link some games where you sucked as town?

It seems to me you are setting yourself to take part in mislynches.

This is a response to the quoted post of Jahudo, above.
Bolded part seems plausible, but maybe too simplistic.
Jahudo then remarks...

It was mostly a joke because I put that as my "meta" on my wiki page for all to see and obey
I don't mean to say I suck as town (ok, I did suck in Mini 695 oddly enough). I guess let my involvement on wagons speak for themselves

and if you think a second vote is safe in my hands then so be it.

Percy states that BM being made Mayor simply for the amount of posts he makes/contribution to thread, which was one of BM's early reasons, is not indicative of alignment.
In games Ive played, Scum lay lower than Town. But the fact remains that Post Count does not constitute alignment one way or the other.

Who actually wants to be mayor? I think it would be helpful if we narrow it down to whoever wants the responsibility- having it thrust on someone who doesn't want it, because of a lack of confidence or a sensitive role for instance, would do more harm than good.

This post smells off to me. Purely because it seems rushed, where there is no rush.
At this stage, scum would not be in a hurry to claim Mayorship, they'd rather have it at a point whereby they can inflict more damage... later in the game.
This could be scum ensuring that a townie gets mayorship, and in doing so, painting themselves as a bigger target to lynch in the event of wrong decisions/bad calls, etc, etc.

I volunteer myself for mayor's position. Im more of a conservative/argumentative player, I use words more than I use votes to pressure players and stuff, so I won't be needing it much in the 1st place, instead, here's what I'll propose if im mayor..

I will only cast my vote (worth 2 as mayor) only when there is at least 1/4 of town (excluding myself) urging me to vote. The exception is that if the vote is a hammer, I will not do it. Instead for me to do a hammer vote I will need all the current voters for the target to urge me to do the hammer. Meaning every voter for the target has to agree to a hammer.

There are several benefits to this, its essentially giving people 2 levels of suspicion. If you are really suspicious of a person, you can urge me to use my vote INCLUDING YOUR OWN VOTE. If you are suspicious, but not too, you can choose not to use my vote. This will make people think twice before they spend their votes, and it will be harder for maf to try and abuse.. since townie pushes for them will look extremely scummy.

In addition I will also state which targets I will want to vote for should I have a normal vote and such as well, just like a normal game. I will essentially play a normal game except for this mayor vote which will be "used" by town basically.

After reading this post, I thought.. Hmmm, interesting idea.
After reading it once more, its easy for scum to use this plan effectively.
It seems to take out the "accountability" out of the mayor role using 2 votes.

This...

Also,

FoS: Percy

Seems a little too early to scum hunt issin't it?

Sorry, no can do... Scumhunting is a must, when you can, how you can.
Scumhunting is great at anytime.

Looks like an excuse to avoid contributing to me.

Looks like you need to get your eyes tested, then.

Conservative play to avoid making mistake s with unfamiliar game mechanics does not equal unwilligness to contribute.

DI indeed looks to be non-commital at this point, stating the game mechanic is the sole reason.
Bolded part could translate to,

"The less I say, the better"

The Fonz instantly replies with..

@ Izzy: 'Being cautious' and 'not wanting to make a mistake' are excuses the scum hides behind to avoid contributing, frequently. But then, i'm a player who equates 'cautious' and 'scummy.' Town should be aggressive.

Aggresive can be a good thing, at times and when needed.
But not all of the time. Fonz should know this from the last game we both played in.
A certain element of caution is also good at times (RE: Xtomxs' Claim), and when needed, but again, not all the time.

So far, up to post 146, Yosarian2 is not taking any of the other players thoughts on Xtomx's claim whatsoever.
In particular, the Miller role. Why is Yos trying so hard to convince everyone else they're wrong about this?

Urging the mayor to vote gives us another opportunity to look at the voting process with more reasoning and discussion, and more posts with content means the scums are more exposed. You think the scum would invoke the mayor's vote together? Obviously, if you have bandwagoned vote together on a player, THEN urge the mayor's vote together, you have severely put yourself on the suspicion panel just to gang vote a townie to death. There might be several disagreements, but the likelihood of this happening is about as much as the whole scum bandwagoning together on a townie.

Besides, this is just making the mayor a generic role. Anybody could play it this way.

I fail to see how it benefits scum more than town, since generating more discussions is always good.

And if scum bandwagon together and "mayor vote" together, they risk making themselves look like they are banding. Which also helps town identify them better. I could see how this mayor role benefits even if I am not the mayor, but somebody plays it this way.

Scum as mayor early in game is less of a benefit than scum being Mayor late in the game. Particularly if the scum-lynched so far is low.
The best stance on

this plan

as Mayor, is to NOT adopt it imo.

Well, I might be out of date, but I want to say something regarding the agressiveness. I think town should be more agressive than passive, however, it should not reach an extreme of agressiveness. I've seen some games where the mafia uses the agressiveness of some pro-town players to lead the lynches as they wish. The Fonz, I believe this is what happened in War of Heaven II, isn't it? But again, a passive stance won't help either. Some agressive is needed, but all attacks should come with good bases and not just for the sake of lynching, or for pure guts.

What happened in War In Heaven is we had the unique disadvantage that roflcopter, an obvtown player, was ripping the town apart by singlehandedly killing town players right and left, and there was nothing we could do to stop him but kill him, which we didn't want to do because he was a powerful obvtown role. That's more analogous to repeated misviggings. When I acted aggressively, and tried to lead the town, I got two players lynched, one of whom was scum. In fact, my biggest error in that game was too much going with the flow later on.

Fonz answers Shinnen on the previous game all 3 of us were involved in, War in Heaven II...
He says that he was not the leading aggressive townie, and this was true.
But the aggresion used early on was too much to contain late on in the game, and as a result, town lynched town after town after town. And The Fonz was one of the main contributers of Over-Aggression in that game. Over-aggression throughout a game is not good imo. Blame WILL be afforded to an over-aggressive townie, and a mis-lynch will more than likely ensue.

I think the risk of a scum mayor is overrated. At least, at this early stage. Whoever is mayor will be under particular pressure to scumhunt successfully. I don't see how it's possible a scum mayor could survive to endgame without some serious bussing- and if they want to bus, that's fine by me.

I agree with this statement. Scum Mayor, in my mind, should have a tougher time than Town Mayor.
At the very least, this should apply in the early lynches in this game.
Of course, Scum-Mayor late in game is a completely different kettle of fish.

I think we should elect a mayor based on everyone putting up 2 candidates. The player mentioned the most gets the position. Then we decide whether we should lynch Xtoxm or direct the vig to kill him (assuming we have a vig). If we really fear the possibility of a Jester role or a variant, then vigging is the best way to get rid of him. We can also make that a part of the election process, so that the vig knows he is acting in accordance with the wishes of the town. (Usually, I'm very much against a vig firing on Night 1 or 2 unless they have a *strong* suspicion of guilt.) If the majority think we should vig or leave him alone, we move on and start looking at other people to lynch. If the majority think we should test his claim, we lynch him and move to night.

So far, Shadow Knight has come across pro-town, and most rational.
The idea of choosing 2 names for Mayor seems like the best option, and should provide a true Town concensus.

On the Xtomx claim..
There have been alot of posts made about this, but until Xtomx comes back and answers the various questions posed, WIFOM will rule.
My thoughts on Xtomx are unclear, partly because of the differing PoV's of the other players.
Another reason is this is my first werewolf game, I simply do not have the authority to speak on this claim with confidence.
But from what Ive gathered so far, and if I can, Ill reserve judgement on which treatment of Xtomx is best.

************************************

Ok...

ELECT AS MAYOR: Shadow Knight or BattleMage.

Ill reserve judgement on Xtomx until I hear more from him.