MKM II GAME OVER

[Moratorium]

vote: randomuselesswhoeverthisstagesucks

[Moratorium]

Bring back the wizard hat.

[Moratorium]

Cut n' Paste != Long posts.

[Moratorium]

I admit, I didn't read any of it at first, because zwets and long posts lol, but after I did read it...

Algestrox, the archmage of Festendath, hovered in the air above his archnemesis, Zoratxix.

You behold the handgun of Adolf Hitler himself, loaded with a bullet of pure silver.

With that, he hurled a flaming sword, materialized out of air, at Algestrox.

With the force of a thousand Ophanim...

So much quoteworthy material... brain melting...

PS: Your writing style is reminiscent of Grimm Shado and the Witchalocks.

Steadying himself atop his speeding Lamborghini, the sorcelator drew his twin wands,

Hurt

and

Burn

. He was going to make damn sure the Pirate Assassins and their metal friends rued this day, and rued it hard.

A voice was heard to say, "Who dares disturb the Crypt of the Immortal Space Bitches?" "I am Grimm Shado," said Grimm Shado, his triple wand claws extending. "And I am here to take it to the limit."

[Moratorium]

Is it because I brought something new to the table that has the potential to break the game if done well the only reason that Im scum?

I'm not sure whether you are scum or not. I accept that bringing up the topic of mass claiming is not necessarily inherently scummy, and in this game has birthed a pretty healthy discussion. But I'm not liking how your proposal reasoning has

evolved

when faced with opposition. Your initial proposal was:

name mass claiming for the win?

Easily interpreted as "I think we should name mass claim". No indication here that you are anything but in favor of doing this. for the win.

The other game, we had a situation to prevent name massclaim. Princess Peach could get captured by scum giving them an autowin if they could keep her for a night with no killing Bowser. Now we dont have it and I strongly believe that Lawrencelot put the good guys in a side and the bad guys in the other, like in the other game.

More explanation of reasoning out why you are in favor of a mass name claim. Then Rule #13 is pointed out. Various votes. So then your expressed opinion changes:

I NEVER said it was a good idea. Im evaluating it right now and waiting for everybody's opinions on this.

why the vote when I have been CLEAR in express that I DONT support name massclaiming.

No, you're not being clear, which is what I'm now pointing out. Your proposal went from this:

name mass claiming for the win?

...to this...

Therefore, I wanted to evaluate the possibility of name massclaiming. Im not in favor or against it, IM JUST EVALUATING IT with the town.

Your statements aren't consistent, and you look like a flip-flopper. You shouldn't be terribly surprised to have a few votes on you.

[Moratorium]

What's confusing to me right now is that although I'm a member of bowser's army, which has a pretty specific townie win condition, the powers granted by the items available to us for purchase are...

...

(how to put this in a way only townies should understand)

...

Unexpected.

Also, I have this creepy feeling that we wake up Day 2 and find out that this isn't Scum-is-Town and Town-is-Scum, but instead this is just some quasi-random "Day 1 with the lights out!" and suddenly we all recognize each other again and only then does the true informed minority get established with more role PM's and whatever...

After having just outed ourselves voluntarily on Day 1.

Nightmare scenarios.

[Moratorium]

Wait a second.
We have items that only Bowser's Army know how they work.
Can we massively confirm people with this?

The unimaginative answer to this is something like "Pick four people, ask them to paraphrase the powers of the four Bowser's Army items".

Pro: Four players are either confirmed or outed.

Con: The item powers are revealed to all.

[Moratorium]

Sounds good to me.

[Moratorium]

So is the assumption here that basically Law didn't put anything in the scum role pm's that says "Hey, by the way, in case town tries this tactic, here's the list of items that town can buy and their powers"?

(started taking a shower, and this thought came to me)

[Moratorium]

Please put me in the "has item descriptions" column.

[Moratorium]

I didn't get anything in my PM that said I was town. Just that I was sided with Bowser's Castle.

???

What is your win condition?

[Moratorium]

With the ready to jump in mechanic,

we might not even have any third parties yet

, they might be on the way to the castle so to speak.

I doubt this. If the first few jumpees started flipping 3rd party, the rest of them would be at a severe disadvantage at progressing through the game.

I'm guessing that the jump in mechanic will be used to help keep the game balanced as it goes on.

I really doubt this. Forces the mod to start making judgement calls on what is balanced and what isn't. They probably have pre-destined jump-in points.

Your comments feel forced.

[Moratorium]

Nice catch, tajo.

Unvote; Vote: Surye

Whoa, interesting move zwet. Did you read my post? Do you know what rash and non sequiter mean?

Zwet plays in the shallow waters of the game.

[Moratorium]

You're like a cute little flailing chicken with its head cut off, just running in every random direction. It's getting a little old.

[Moratorium]

Unvote Vote: Zwetschenwasser

Because this game needs to go somewhere.

I totally missed that.

Unvote, Vote: populartajo

Bowser's army isn't an informed minority.

Unvote, Vote:zwet

That looks like a MAJOR scumslip right there.

o.O I don't actually remember.

Unvote

let me go back and re-read.

Unvote, vote: zwet

you voted tajo based on surye's... defense of him?

Oh, wait *facepalm*

unvote

I'm an idiot.

Vote: Zwet

Throwing dirt around hoping it will stick.

Speaking of throwing something around. This is your third vote on Zwets, among others. You have commitment issues, sir.

[Moratorium]

Is that scummy?

It's debatable. Could be scum trying too hard to find the right wagon on Day 1, could be an amnesic, dyslexic easily impressionable townie.

[Moratorium]

People with items description

Tajo
Zwet
Qwints
caf19
semioldguypacman
Surye
Moratorium
WLC

People with no items description

Gorrad
Ace
Shadow Knight
Empking

Refusing to

Ortolan
Shinnen
K7
Cream
Rice

Get on with it, Tajo.

11) When inactivity occurs I will prod or look for replacements, but you can ask me this for specific players too (in bold).

Mod: Please prod the following players, all with no posts in the past 72 hours:

- Gorrad
- ortolan
- Riceballtail
- Shadow Knight
- Shinnen_no_Me
- Surye

Thanks.

[Moratorium]

That was hard to read.. please tell me if this is correct..

You think it is most likely that...

Code: Select all

People with items description
Tajo
Zwet
Qwints
caf19
semioldguypacman
Surye
Moratorium
WLC

...these people are mostly if not all town...

Code: Select all

People with no items description
Gorrad
Ace
Shadow Knight
Empking

Refusing to
Ortolan
Shinnen
K7
Cream
Rice

...and these people are a mix of scum and town?

I'm fine with that. There could be exceptions or gambit play, but in general it's a safe enough assumption generally.

[Moratorium]

EBWOP: Generally general generalness.

[Moratorium]

Neutral

Ace
Empking
Shinnen
Cream
Rice

Prob scum

Shinnen
Ortolan
Shadow Knight
K7

Cream and K7 are basically lurking through the game, why do you have one of them as neutral and the other as prob scum?

[Moratorium]

Hold up.

His neutral list is those who don't have item descriptions...

Gorrad
Ace
Shadow Knight
Empking

Ace
Empking
Shinnen
Cream
Rice
someoldguy

So again, Ace. Why did you believe that semioldguy did not have item descriptions.

[Moratorium]

/sigh

Zwets, you are the worst mafia player. Ever. In all of history.

[Moratorium]

Just shut up.

[Moratorium]

Should not have asked those questions simultaneously, because you are giving scum a range to work in once people start answering.

[Moratorium]

Better would have been to only have 1 cost question, maybe 2.

[Moratorium]

And for the love of god, when people start answering the questions, can everyone just listen to the answers and make personal notes on who is confirmed and who isn't and not go "WOW SO-AND-SO, YOU GOT THE CORRECT ANSWER HURF DURF."

- Let everyone answer, make no comments on the answer.
- Once everyone is done answering, TAJO ONLY will pick out one person who is wrong.
- Vote that person away.

Don't fucking give up the whole fucking cow.

Sorry for my attitude, but FUCKING ZWETS PISSES ME OFF.

[Moratorium]

I already said why I didn't like item costs, because that could be different for different characters (like last game where different characters had cheaper or more expensive costs for items). For example, last game the mushrooms cost 2 coins instead of 3 for Toad players. No one would know that except for the Toads. The Toads were not the only town-aligned role last game.

The item abilities are something that are going to be consistent between everyone's descriptions. Questions about some of the abilities can be general enough not to reveal exactly how they work, but also specific enough to know that they player knows how the item functions.

This is a good post.

[Moratorium]

@ortolan- which is great until one of us with no item descriptions is up for lynch. Then what?

Then nothing? Then we treat you like any player up for lynch in any game ever?

Just because there are possibilities being discussed on how to treat lynch candidates who've declared item knowledge, doesn't mean that somehow when there's a player with declared item ignorance suddenly the rest of the players will fall down in spasms unable to coherently put together a sentence.

What a strange question.

[Moratorium]

People with items description

Tajo

Zwet

Qwints

caf19
semioldguy
Surye

Moratorium

WLC

/fume

What are you indicating here with this struck-through text?

[Moratorium]

And for the love of god, when people start answering the questions, can everyone just listen to the answers and make personal notes on who is confirmed and who isn't and not go "WOW SO-AND-SO, YOU GOT THE CORRECT ANSWER HURF DURF."

- Let everyone answer, make no comments on the answer.
- Once everyone is done answering, TAJO ONLY will pick out one person who is wrong.
- Vote that person away.

Don't fucking give up the whole fucking cow.

Sorry for my attitude, but FUCKING ZWETS PISSES ME OFF.

I agree.

So this is what, made up bullshit appeasement then?

[Moratorium]

The entire point of my post is to state "Look, don't reveal any confirmations of anyone answering questions, it's not necessary, everyone keep your own notes".

And the first thing you do is confirm qwints publicly.

Keep a damn lid on this process. There's no reason to tell anyone who is confirmed and who isn't. We may have third parties in this game. We may have unknown mechanics. Everyone is perfectly capable of realising who is telling the truth and who is fucking up the answers. Don't give anti-town players this information unnecessarily.

[Moratorium]

And I realise that this statement:

Everyone is perfectly capable of realising who is telling the truth and who is fucking up the answers.

Doesn't apply to these people:

Gorrad
Ace
Shadow Knight
Empking

But I find several of these people scummy regardless, so this group is, to me, collateral damage.

[Moratorium]

@tajo- yeah, after rereading and paying close attentioni to ortolan, I'm gonna have to go with a

unvote, vote ortolan

He's made a lot of statements that just rub me the wrong way. Its nothing I can really articulate, but my gut feels good with this.

"I'm going to vote for this person because Tajo seems to want to start a wagon on him. Don't ask me any questions about it."

vote: Shadow Knight

Vote stays until you define your reasoning. No one gets a free pass here.

[Moratorium]

Someone ask me a question.

[Moratorium]

Can someone direct a question specifically at me please?

[Moratorium]

Which item has the potential to have its effect during the day?

Bob-omb.

[Moratorium]

If so I can give multiple theoretical possibilities for each choice meaning that a yes answer to any choice would still leave the trigger not completely known.

This is a good idea. I think your question in general is good, and if you can flesh it out with possible answers including all of the above and none of the above, we can confirm tajo as much as possible one way or the other.

Eventually, though, all of us will have to fill out a dissertation in cursive on the political, social, and economic ramifications of near-term agro-geneticisation of produce imports, the way these questions are going........

[Moratorium]

What a clusterfuck.

[Moratorium]

I'm a little wary about the way these questions are being asked. We may end up leaving someone with an algebra problem to solve to get the question right.

Prophecy.

[Moratorium]

So... fact is, tajo, you've yet to answer a question correctly or give an answer that couldn't be deduced from previous answers.

[Moratorium]

No, don't, I hadn't noticed this post.

[Moratorium]

Yes you should apologize because you thought I was scum for retarded reasons.

It's a game.

You should apologize because you distracted the attention of things we should be aiming to.

Game.

You should apologize because I am giving my best effort to win this for the town and the first thing you think is I who thought of the plan to catch scum, is scum.

Game.

You should apologize because in the case we got retarded scum, you just did all the job for them.

Game.

You should apologize because you are making me lose my time defending myself when Im obv town.

Game. Let it go and move on.

[Moratorium]

Zwet and Looker are after Tajo not because he's scummy, but because they are both, in my experience with them, not particularly good at this game.

With zwets, I agree. Were he not confirmed town in my eyes, I would be pushing a policy lynch on him right now. I have half a mind to do it anyways. The bad news is that scum has zero incentive to get rid of him, so he gets to inject his brand of abbreviated poison into endgame.

Looker, on the other hand, just screams newb at me. I don't have a read yet.

I wouldn't insult their intelligence by saying that they're both wrong. They're voting for each other, believe that each other are scum - one of them has to be scum, right?

That's just a naive statement. Not an incriminating one.

Shadow Knight still hasn't explained his "I am voting for Ortolan because my gut tells me so" and no other explanation.

[Moratorium]

If ever there was a question I don't want to see the answer to posted in thread, it's "what is the value of "x"?.

Come on, man.

[Moratorium]

Im catching up, been busy.

Btw, is K7 the original zwets? Are they cousins? Or maybe Zwets signed on to some sort of K7 apprenticeship program?

[Moratorium]

Is Ort right?

Shouldn't you already know the answer to this?

[Moratorium]

two

That's not what I make it. Either you are scum or misunderstood the question, which is possible because it is slightly open to interpretation. Perhaps this will help: Is the poison shroom one of the 'two' in your answer?

[Moratorium]

Enough questions. Several players have been confirmed.

We have 6 days to deadline.

Can we start using that time to concentrate discussion on our next lynch? If we have to, we can always take up trying to confirm townies later, but we can't ask Day 1 questions later.. because later will be Day 2.

@Quints- I have abso-freaking-lutely nothing to do right now. What would you like me to do? I don't have item descriptions, and I've already expressed my thoughts on who I think is scummiest right now. Since all the talk is primarily about something I don't know anything about, I find it hard to chime in with fresh thoughts. I attempted to play along and all that happened is people jumped on me for being honest. I never claimed I had an airtight case on orto. I flat out said "its a gut vote". Make a case on someone or catch a scum with the item questions and I'll be happy to change my vote and put it to good/better use, but till then I'll let it sit with my only lead, no matter how crappy the reason is for it to be there.

Second post that essentially avoids giving any kind of reasoning (nevermind airtight) as to your vote, in essence you are asking the rest of us to allow you to bandwagon ortolan without having to explain yourself. You "flat out" say it's a gut vote. So I'm "flat out" voting for you.

When I look at the ortolan wagon, I see three votes from people I'm not confident in.

When I look at Shadow Knight's wagon, I see.. I guess one.

I'm happy with my vote where it is. And I would recommend that everyone look at the two current wagons and make your own evaluations of those 10 voting players and see if you can identify which wagon is scum-driven.

[Moratorium]

Mora, you think Ortolan answered good enough?

Probably not. But there are negative consequences to asking item questions.

There aren't a lot of negative consequences to evaluating existing bandwagons.

[Moratorium]

-ortolan (5): populartajo, Shadow Knight, AceMarksman, zwetschenwasser, Gorrad
-Shadow Knight (5): Moratorium, ortolan, Looker, qwints, semioldguy

Mora, you think one of these guys is scum and the other is town?

I haven't ruled it out.

[Moratorium]

-ortolan (5): populartajo, Shadow Knight, AceMarksman, zwetschenwasser, Gorrad
-Shadow Knight (5): Moratorium, ortolan, Looker, qwints, semioldguy

Mora, you think one of these guys is scum and the other is town?

I haven't ruled it out.

You suggested one wagon was scumdriven, right?

If you are haopoy with your vote, that means that you think ortolan is a scum-driven wagon, right?

Yes, that's what I said here...

When I look at the ortolan wagon, I see three votes from people I'm not confident in.

[Moratorium]

Read your PM, Ace.

20) You can buy items during the night, and use them during the night. This is done by sending me a PM at night in which you say which item you want to buy. But, unlike the previous game, information about the items is not public, and items are different for each alignment. The information of the items you can buy will appear in your role pm. These are the items in this game that can be bought:
-All alignments: 10-coin block,

letter

[Moratorium]

So you don't know what the 10-coin block and the letter do, then?

[Moratorium]

That's some pretty big fonts you got there.

[Moratorium]

And we're L-1 visible on SK, btw. I'd also like to hear from a few others (Looker in particular who unvoted, your opinion on SK in general would be welcome) before we hammer 5 days out from deadline.

[Moratorium]

The red shell costs 2 more coins than the green shell.

qwints, Yoshi (Mushroom Kingdom), killed Night 1.

Problem.

[Moratorium]

The red shell costs 2 more coins than the green shell.

qwints, Yoshi (Mushroom Kingdom), killed Night 1.

Problem.

Indeed. What was the question that qwints answered?

First question of the night.

Drumroll

qwints, out of these two items: green shell and red shell, which costs more and by how?

[Moratorium]

Oh yeah.

Those that played in the original. What Mushroom Kingdom characters died? Was Yoshi one of them?

Dead (11):
-Rogue Shenanigans, Donkey Kong (DK crew), lynched Day 1 (page 38)
-populartajo, Toad (Mushroom Kingdom), killed Night 1 (page 38)
-mr. incrediball, Wario (WarioWare, Inc.), lynched Day 2 (page 65/66)
-armlx, Baby Bowser (Bowser's Army), killed Night 2 (page 66)
-Korts DragonsofSummer , Koopa Troopa (Bowser's army), lynched Day 3 (page 88)
-Faerilord, Daisy (Mushroom Kingdom), kidnapped Night 2 (page 66) and killed Day 3 (page 88), won the game
-iamausername, Drybones (Bowser's army), killed Night 3 (page 88)
-TheSweatpantsNinja, Toad (Mushroom Kingdom), killed Night 3 (page 88), won the game
-Alabaska J, Bowser (Bowser's army), lynched Day 4 (page 107)
-mnowax, Toad (Mushroom Kingdom), killed Night 4 (page 107), won the game
-Natirasha, Toad (Mushroom Kingdom), killed Night 4 (page 107), won the game
-skitzer, Parakoopa (Bowser's Army), killed Night 4 (page 107), won the game

[Moratorium]

Alive (13):
-forbiddanlight Syzygy sideney : Luigi, survived and won the game
-somestrangeflea: Princess Peach, survived and won the game
-Surye: Lakitu, survived and won the game
-killa seven: Toadsworth, survived and won the game
-Gremwell Celebloki : Mario, survived and won the game
-farside22: Toad, survived and won the game
-ting =) andersonw MafiaSSK : Toad, survived and won the game
-DarlaBlueEyes malthusis alvinz95 : Toad, survived and won the game
-Lord Gurgi Gimbo : Toad, survived and won the game
-Cream147: Toad, survived and won the game
-Riceballtail:

Yoshi

, survived and won the game
-Dasquian ashmite84 Pepsidude : Toad, survived and won the game
-populartajo, killed Night 1, revived Day 1 (page 42): Toad, survived and won the game

[Moratorium]

Something else that needs to be addressed:

- No one from Bowser's Army died last night.
- Someone from Mushroom Kingdom died last night.

Three possibilities that I can see:

1) qwints was nightkilled by his own faction. Implausible gambit at this stage, but the gambit would be the scum attempting to spread confusion about the makeup of the game and the various factions by sacrificing one of its own. 1/10.

2) Scum nightkill did not occur for one of many different reasons. qwints was killed by a non-scum entity. 6/10.

3) There is more than one uninformed faction in this game. 3/10.

[Moratorium]

Now be quiet, commenting on NKs is scummy.

No, sorry, I don't abide by some code of MafiaScumdom that only allows me to discuss certain things at certain times and not other things at other times.

If you want to vote for me, please do.

===

Something else I wanted to mention,

Moratorium, ortolan, qwints, semioldguy, WeyounsLastClone, zwetschenwasser, Gorrad, Empking

Either one of these people (one of which is dead) has/had a doublevote, or there is a phantom vote that went on Shadow Knight.

Of interest, the Yoshi role in the first game was sort of a doublevoting role, in that he doubled the Mario role's vote, but Yoshi himself had no vote of his own. So if the role power is the same, qwints wasn't the doublevoter. No guarantees of this.

[Moratorium]

@Mora-
2 and 3 aren't mutually exclusive.

Agreed.

I don't know where you are getting your probabilities from...

Opinionated thin air.

[Moratorium]

That said, maybe quints actually was Bowser's Army, but a special power made him look like Mushroom Kingdom (although his after death reaction would be a bit strange in that regard). It would also explain why qwints could answer an item question.

This is a Death Miller supposition.

[Moratorium]

It looks like a mistake by the mod. Skitzer lost.

[Moratorium]

That said, maybe quints actually was Bowser's Army, but a special power made him look like Mushroom Kingdom (although his after death reaction would be a bit strange in that regard). It would also explain why qwints could answer an item question.

This is a Death Miller supposition.

Let me put this up just in case people are confused by seemingly pointless declarative statements.

A rather controversial twist is the Death Miller, whose alignment is shown as "guilty" by the Moderator upon death. This has been argued and discussed in Ethics Threads as a source of distrust in the Moderator, which most people feel should not be tolerated. Thus, the Death Miller is an extremely scarcely used role.

Ethics Thread

[Moratorium]

Then vote for me? If you think I'm scum, please explain your case on me.

You are telling me to shut up because I don't fit the mold of those two games you are patting yourself on the back for.

[Moratorium]

Or hey, how about the fact that Castle folks win when all three non-Castle groups are dead? AKA three anti-town factions.

AKA more than one anti-town NK.

Nevermind the hypocrisy.

[Moratorium]

I think you're scum.

If you think I'm scum, please explain your case on me.

[Moratorium]

To this lot:

-sirdanilot (jumped in Night 1)
-Nyx
-MikeSC6
-dingoatemybaby
-Sironigous
-Seraphim
-Bowwy
-MacavityLock (not until May 20)
-xRECKONERx
-millar13

I would hope that you people are already reading along with this game. You're expected to be playing in it. Needing an additional week to read the game makes as much sense for you guys than it would for people who are active players.

As in, no sense at all.

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-populartajo (2): zwetschenwasser, ortolan
-sirdanilot (1): Gorrad
-Looker (1): populartajo

Not voting (12): killa seven, Kast, ZEEnon, Riceballtail, Looker, sirdanilot, Moratorium, semioldguy, WeyounsLastClone, Empking, caf19, AceMarksman

With 16 alive it takes 9 real votes to lynch.

[Moratorium]

I will answer every accusation you brought to the table, ort. Until you eat your words.

Um, ok, so where is the answer to all the stuff I wrote in 973 then?

You think it will take five minutes to answer to that pile of shit?
Im working on it.
Dont worry.

Most of 973 wasn't addressed to you.

Let's hear it.

[Moratorium]

ort wrote:
And as I pointed out in 864, his justification for believing the claim was contradictory.

And as I pointed out in, I explained why this wasnt contradictory in 872. Did you miss it for some reason?

I don't get this part, ort was showing the contradiction between you believing a claim because it was simple vs. later believing a claim even when it was not simple.

Your response in 872 talks about gut, and believing the complicated claim, but I didn't see where it addressed the contradiction.

Please expand on this? Or point out what I missed, if that's the case?

(still reading your response)

[Moratorium]

EBWOP: quote fail, should look like this

And as I pointed out in 864, his justification for believing the claim was contradictory.

And as I pointed out in, I explained why this wasnt contradictory in 872. Did you miss it for some reason?

[Moratorium]

Two questions:

1) @populartajo and @ortolan: Do you two have a history of past mafia games together?

2) @caf19: Have you played a game with zwetschenwasser before?

Neither question is meant to be rhetorical, I'd like to know the answer to both.

Just read caf19's post, and a lightbulb went off in my head. So thank you, caf19.

[Moratorium]

If I were to massively paraphrase the overall theme of the argument between ortolan and populartajo, it would be thus:

1) Ortolan's Case on PopularTajo

- Mass-claiming is Bad.
- (Long Interlude of suspicion on Gorrad)
- Hey, Mass-claiming failed! You fail, Mass-claiming is Bad. You must be scum.

2) PopularTajo's Case on Ortolan

- How dare you not accept that Mass-Claiming can be Good? You must be scum.

=====

My opinion right now is that this is two townies arguing. Both of you have reasonably legitimate arguments, so you've convinced yourselves the other side can't possibly be correct. (Mass-claiming IS overall very bad. Mass-claiming CAN be good if the circumstances are perfect. The rules of this game make this subject nebulous, and technically since we're not claiming roles, difficult to apply hard rules to).

I believe that ortolan questioning the item plan is legitimate, and not a reaction borne of fear of discovery.

I believe that tajo's motives to find loopholes that let town win are legitimate, and follow his general "Day 1 Superplan" meta.

The two are not mutually exclusive, but ortolan and tajo think they are, hence the votes.

=====

If I am massively mischaracterizing either of your arguments, please let me know. But generally, if you strip away all the

acoutrements

, all the more minor issues that were brought up to add bulk to their cases, I think that's the crux of it.

[Moratorium]

I know about his meta and the shallow waters blah blah, but seriously, zwet is scummy. Now that he's not 'confirmed' anymore , I can't help but note that he is 'playing up' to his meta. He is tunneling with woefully inadequate reasoning, purposefully exaggerating the aggressiveness and dumbness of his posts in order that people will go 'oh, it's just zwet being zwet'. And it seems to be working - a decent wagon is building up on tajo. I'm not really a fan of the tajo wagon, he's too much of an easy target. (and so is zwet, you might respond, except that nobody is going after zwet...)

I will join any policy-lynch wagon that starts on zwetschenwasser. If I was scum, and zwetschenwasser was my scumbuddy, I would still join that wagon. My general opinion of him is that he hinders whatever team he is on, so as far as I'm concerned, either he's scum and yay 1 less scum, or he's town and yay 1 less zwetschenwasser.

[Moratorium]

Well, that was a bad generalization of my case against ortolan:

No one likes to have their hard work summed up in a few pithy sentences, so I understand. But I felt it was necessary to convey my general feelings in a very understandable way.

@Mora, why does he think you are obv town and I am obv scum if we shared the same thoughts about the plan? Is it because I am calling for his lynch?

It probably doesn't help.

[Moratorium]

Mora and all, what do you think of this?

See, yesterday, while you were voting me for opposing a mass-claim plan as being useless which has since turned out to be...useless, I was busy catching scum.

You were opposing to a plan that was not useless yesterday. It has been proven useless today. How did you know it was useless yesterday? Unless you are scum of course and you knew it was useless since D1.

I'm not sure why you want the rest of us to answer this for ortolan when he's yet to address it himself. I have an opinion on this, but I'd much rather hear ortolan's answer first.

[Moratorium]

-9/17 players claimed knowledge of BA items, 4/17 claimed no knowledge and 4/17 didn't participate. I replaced Cream who did not participate in claiming and does not have knowledge of items;

I suspect that Cream and probably the 3 other non-compliant players refused to comply because they do not have this knowledge.

The relatively small number of people objecting to the item claiming plan makes me wonder if it

consists entirely of scum.

I think this is significant.

[Moratorium]

@Mora, 1002-
You are pretty vague.

Could you clarify your statement/thoughts?

A flipped scum attempted to paint four particular players as scum very early on in the game, just as a passing comment. As there's little reason to bus so many scumbuddies that early, I would tend to believe those four players are more townie on average, based on that statement.

[Moratorium]

I'll revise that statement, and say more non-scum on average.

[Moratorium]

:/

Alright, you two keep duking it out then. I'll keep an eye out for either of you to spring some awesome verbal trap on the other, but right now I'm not feeling it.

I'm still interested to hear from Gorrad the self-proclaimed half-engineer.

I have some theories that can wait until Sirdanilot posts.

k so reading the game may take a while though, anyone has a summary about what happened this would help my reread a bit otherwise count on about a week or so.

"You first."

"No, please, you first."

"Why sir, I insist."

"How kind, but I couldn't bear it. Please."

There's probably a legitimate line of discussion to come of this, but I'm not sure I understand the need for the delay.

[Moratorium]

...but an aspect of his behavior yesterday is exactly what he would do as scum trying to get townies of his trail.

...that aspect being?

[Moratorium]

Are you trying to get me modkilled?

That sounds... delicious.

[Moratorium]

So your saying that Shadow Knight predicted that the item claim plan would get him lynched, and so then claimed that he had no item descriptions five days after the game started, all as an elaborate Day 1 self-bussing maneuver to put tajo in a better light?

Did I hear that correctly?

[Moratorium]

Awesome. Thank you.

vote: Zwets

[Moratorium]

Zwets always plays like this.

This, except...

I know about his meta and the shallow waters blah blah, but seriously, zwet is scummy. Now that he's not 'confirmed' anymore , I can't help but note that he is 'playing up' to his meta. He is tunneling with woefully inadequate reasoning, purposefully exaggerating the aggressiveness and dumbness of his posts in order that people will go 'oh, it's just zwet being zwet'. And it seems to be working - a decent wagon is building up on tajo. I'm not really a fan of the tajo wagon, he's too much of an easy target. (and so is zwet, you might respond, except that nobody is going after zwet...)

This more.

[Moratorium]

Mora, besides zwet who do you think is scum?

I'm still generally suspicious of some individuals who appeared to drive the ortolan wagon (p. 30 top).

Hey, look at that, zwetschenwasser's in that list too.

[Moratorium]

Mora, besides zwet who do you think is scum?

I'm still generally suspicious of some individuals who appeared to drive the ortolan wagon (p. 30 top).

Hey, look at that, zwetschenwasser's in that list too.

Why are you so vague?

You suspect me?

I've already stated I thought you and ortolan were two townies arguing.

I'm being vague because right now I'd rather not detract the conversation from a zwetschenwasser lynch.

[Moratorium]

...

That just sounds like a distraction attempt.

[Moratorium]

Please vote then.

Mod: Have prods gone out?

Mod: Yes

[Moratorium]

What page are you up to?

[Moratorium]

A flipped scum attempted to paint four particular players as scum very early on in the game, just as a passing comment. As there's little reason to bus so many scumbuddies that early, I would tend to believe those four players are more townie on average, based on that statement.

Which post was this and who did he point to?

Post 342, Page 14. At that moment in time, the following four people were refusing to divulge whether they had item information.

Empking

(see post 304)

Ortolan

(see post 304)
Shinnen who is now

Looker

(see post 304)

Riceballtail

(see post 312)

I note that you may already have known the answers to your questions, and note the purpose of then asking the question anyways. So my response includes a healthy dose of "You easily could have found this information yourself."

[Moratorium]

So... wait... you are saying you used your "Summon Vanilla Townie" power, a person was apparently brought in from the jumped in list, but now you are saying that person isn't a vanilla townie at all because they couldn't confirm something?

So.... your Summon Vanilla Townie power failed then?

So... this makes no sense at all then?

I don't think you thought this fakeclaim through.

Jesus, I can't believe you are making me have to delay lynching Zwets.

unvote

vote: Gorrad

[Moratorium]

unvote

I don't like that you claimed. If you are telling the truth, and if you are correct about your assessment that there is an anti-town version of your claim, then you just outed yourself and scum can now eliminate town's ability to "call in reinforcements" as it were.

So you didn't just out yourself, you cost us several future townies when you end up getting NK'd.

[Moratorium]

Yes, yes, calm down Empking, give me a chance to get my response in.

[Moratorium]

though it costs many coins to do so.

you cost us several future townies

EBWOP: More than 0 future townies.

[Moratorium]

vote: Zwets

[Moratorium]

I know PRECISELY what I'm doing.

Famous words, those.

[Moratorium]

As it is, what I thought was that maybe either players just wandered in like in the games from offscreen as it were. Sirdan seems to have made up his flavor to fit 'jumping in', when I'm rather positive it's not literal jumping. Therefore, I believe his claim is falsified, and he was brought here by an external, anti-town force.

As far as this portion and your suspicion of sirdanilot, I'm not sure why you are putting so much emphasis on flavor. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that sirdanilot is suspicious specifically because this...

The ground came closer and closer and then I was in a dark place...

is to you less plausible than this...

I wandered in and then I was in a dark place...

So you are guessing at how the mod would have described his entrance flavor, and that's your reasoning for a vote.

Your claim seems fine... for now... but I don't follow you as far as the vote is concerned.

[Moratorium]

Ok, how's this:

How could anyone jump and fall down into a castle? As it's pitch dark, there's obviously no opening to the sky.

A retractable dome.

Now please explain how my stupid answer makes any less sense than wandering in for this game based on a video game

where plumbers fight turtles with fireballs

.

Preview edit: Bravo for seeing the light.

[Moratorium]

Why is zwet being lynched. So far he doesn't stand out to me? tbh it looks like you are just lynching him for the sake of lynching zwetschenwasserchsadfasdflk. Other than his username there seems to be little to no base for this.

You claimed Wario!

Amongst other reasons.

[Moratorium]

Do you guys want to stay updated like this while I read? I felt it might be helpful.

Yes please, I'd like to see your progression of thought.

[Moratorium]

and btw, @ortolan

...so you're not Mushroom Kingdom?

This post made me laugh pretty hard. You are hereby awarded one shiny medal for attempting to befuddle the new guy into a scum confession right out of the gate.

[Moratorium]

You're at page 14, why are you saying "there's no way we should lynch him"? You don't even know the whole story yet?

[Moratorium]

I have a shell that

I think

protects me from nightkills

Please explain.

[Moratorium]

So Gorrad has secret information that claims Zwets is scum...

And ortolan has secret information that claims Zwets is town?

This game.

[Moratorium]

Zeenon, where did you state you were V/LA?

(Wasn't there just a thread in GD about lying about V/LA?)

[Moratorium]

I'd like to ask a side question...

Do we have four zwets in this game? As in, four people that post little snippets of uselessness and then vanish?

Zwets
Empking
killa seven
Looker

Am I wrong about this observation? Has this become the new Mafiascum trend lately? Are games just going to become glorified scumchat mockups?

Anyways. /hijack. Back to the game.

[Moratorium]

Ok, if we assume you are town, does it seem strange that his first SERIOUS post of the game is a vote for a flipped scum?

What's the purpose of this question? Why would voting for someone who ends up scum be a bad thing?

[Moratorium]

if Yoshi has the same abilities as last game, than I might have been his target last night

Riceballtail's role wrote:
You are Yoshi (Mushroom Kingdom), Mario’s faithful steed. During the day you can double the vote count of

Mario

or

Luigi

, by voting for the same person as they do. This will be done in the real votecount, not the visible votecount. Unfortunately, during the day you are nothing without the help of

Mario

or

Luigi

, so your own vote always counts for 0 in the real votecount.
You have one powerful night action: Swallow. When you use this action on an ally, it will protect him from one fireflower, and when you use this action on an enemy, his votes will count for 0 the next day (of which they will get notified). I will not tell you which of the two happened.
Besides this, you don’t start with any coins, you won’t get new coins and you can’t buy or use items. All items and coins given to you are lost.
You win when everyone who is not on the town’s side is dead.

Are you Mushroom Kingdom?

[Moratorium]

Theory time:

I think qwints died because a nightkill attempt was redirected. It's something that caf19 mentioned a while back.

More specifically, I think it's possible that qwints himself put the nightkill order in, and it was reflected back at him by whoever he chose to kill. That would seem to make more sense than a redirection in that qwints wasn't exactly a huge case of suspicion during day 1, so if he wasn't the one that put the kill order in, it's probable that he would have had to have been chosen by the "redirector" as it were, and there wasn't much incentive to pick him that I can see.

[Moratorium]

A trade can be offered and rejected, but the offer to trade will still confirm that the player has the item.

22) It is also possible to give coins or items to someone else. This can be done at any time by sending me a pm saying what item or how many coins you want to give, to which player, and whether you want to remain anonymous or not. You will get a pm back from me, saying whether the transaction was successful or not, and the other will receive the item/coins right away. The transaction might fail, for example, if you want to give an item to someone who is already holding an item. If the transaction fails, the player who was about to receive an item doesn’t get a pm about the transaction.

Nothing in the ruleset indicates the option for the receiving player to reject receipt of an item.

[Moratorium]

I thought you were going to be sharing your thoughts along the way. I don't think anyone cares what page you are at. We're more interested in what you have to say about it.

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-zwetschenwasser (5): AceMarksman, caf19, Moratorium, Gorrad, Empking
-populartajo (2): zwetschenwasser, ortolan
-Looker (2): Kast, populartajo
-Gorrad (1): WeyounsLastClone

Not voting (6): killa seven, ZEEnon, Riceballtail, Looker, sirdanilot, semioldguy

With 16 alive it takes 9 real votes to lynch.

[Moratorium]

So essentially, if you think Zwets is scum, then you think that I'm currently bussing my second scum partner on Day 2, both of whom I put the initial vote on?

Nice gambit, me.

[Moratorium]

Oh as for giving thoughts along the way I think someone said that I should give my thoughts AFTER reading (kast, acemarksman and

you, in fact

). Not sure I can quote where exactly you said that though.

I can.

Do you guys want to stay updated like this while I read? I felt it might be helpful.

Yes please, I'd like to see your

progression

of thought.

[Moratorium]

I really hate how looker acts like a complete idiot just to piss people off...

Brain... exploding...

[Moratorium]

im down to lynch zwet, i dont think he is trying to help the town just distract everyone.

Vote.

[Moratorium]

I'm very interested to see if you keep going as hard after someone who can defend himself (ThAdmiral) now, tajo.

Considering how drawn out the feud between you two has been...

And I already clarified exactly why I believed zwet's claim, so unless you want another gone fishin' jpeg I think we can steer the conversation away from that topic.

Have to look this up...

Couldn't find it by searching your posts for Zwets, can you either point out your case again or point to the post that explains why you think zwets is town?

[Moratorium]

you guys are lazy, you think scum will jump in your lap and you'll win by making incredibly

obvious

and incorrect lynches.

Strange language.

[Moratorium]

It's also possible for my Tiger-repelling rock here on my deak to work exactly how it should for 35 years.

Not sure I see your point.

[Moratorium]

*desk

[Moratorium]

Opinion noted.

Vote Zwets. It's therapeutic.

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-zwetschenwasser (5): AceMarksman, caf19, Moratorium, Gorrad, Empking
-populartajo (3): zwetschenwasser, ortolan, Riceballtail
-ThAdmiral (2): Kast, populartajo
-Gorrad (1): WeyounsLastClone
-caf19 (1): sirdanilot

Not voting (4): killa seven, ZEEnon, ThAdmiral, semioldguy

With 16 alive it takes 9 real votes to lynch.

[Moratorium]

@sirdanilot:

I've yet to hear your opinion of zwets, I'm just seeing your opinion of other people's opinion of zwets.

- What do you know of zwetschenwasser's playstyle?
- What do you think of zwetschenwasser's play during this game vs. his normal playstyle?
- Do you believe zwetschenwasser is a) heavily scum, b) leaning scum, c) leaning town or d) heavily town. I've omitted any Neutral or No-read option on purpose.

[Moratorium]

millar13, please paraphrase whatever game entrance flavor you received from the mod to us.

[Moratorium]

Did you receive anything from the mod that generally describes your entrance into this game? Not your role or abilities or whatever, just the flavor text that describes how you came to be here?

If so, please paraphrase it.

[Moratorium]

Because in some situation we have come to very similar conclusions. I know Im town and I know how I came to those conclusions so that indicates (not 100% obv) that caf is going through the same reasoning process.

And this can't be faked?

[Moratorium]

unvote

vote: ThAdmiral

[Moratorium]

I find what millar13 did here close enough to breaking the rules, but not modkill-worthy. I will provide a punishment for millar13 and his faction. I will not tell anyone what the punishment is. Next time anyone claims something: if you claim your role pm, don't use the exact text as in the role pm, except for your rolename for example, and if you fakeclaim a role, don't pretend to use the exact same text as in a pm from me. In general, just paraphrase my pms, and if you're not sure whether you're breaking the rules, send your post to me first.

I feel bad for Lawrencelot, to be honest. His great game concept is being ruined by people misunderstanding their role PM's. Multiple times. Everyone cheers because town gets closer to winning, but the gameplay is essentially ruined.

Anyways, ThAdmiral and millar13 need to die, please pile on the votes to overwhelm whatever vote-reduction mechanic is preventing the ThAdmiral lynch currently.

[Moratorium]

Mod: Why is the real votecount not displayed in post 1465?

[Moratorium]

So...

When we were at 9 people voting for ThAdmiral, it resulted in 6 real votes.

2 people have voted since that realvote count was posted (myself and ortolan).

So if those two votes counted as simple single votes, we are currently at 11 people voting, 8 real votes in. One vote needed to hammer, assuming that the vote reducing mechanic didn't affect the two newest voters.

Can someone else vote ThAdmiral please? There's a reasonable possibility that you would be the hammer.

WLC, switch your vote, and you can jump all over millar13 tomorrow, plenty of people will be joining you.

[Moratorium]

We could have each player unvote, request a vote count (check if the unvote results in a lynch), then revote and in that manner determine if anyone in particular has a zero/negative vote. There is danger in doing this that we may reveal double voters, or potentially reveal powerful townies whose power roles are balanced by not having a vote.

Law appears to be actively attempting to prevent us from abusing the realvote/visiblevote posting mechanic.

Here are the players that aren't currently voting ThAdmiral.

WeyounsLastClone

-- Voting for someone else (please switch)

killa seven

-- typical non-participatory gameplay

ZEEnon

-- Not participating (and complains when he gets voted because he says he's V/LA?)

ThAdmiral

-- Self-Voting is in style these days, I swear!

semioldguy

-- hmmm...

millar13

-- Hell, you've given up the cow already, help us out and vote your buddy off.

The one that I'm honestly very surprised hasn't helped out with this wagon is semioldguy, who appears to have ignored this topic entirely and stayed non-voting. I had a townish read on him, but now I'm confused by his sidelining.

[Moratorium]

millar13, what do you think of ThAdmiral?

[Moratorium]

I promise I won't call you scum because you jumped on the wagon.

I might call you scum because you outed yourself, but definately not because you jumped on the wagon.

I promise. Cross my heart.

[Moratorium]

Mod: Votecount please.

[Moratorium]

I have an idea.

Since we have a lot of consensus against Admiral, what about if we do something to know how many votes we really have.

What about if we massively unvote and then revote massively again in a revealing number of iterations, everytime triggering the real votecount when we reach the amount of votes needed to lynch Admiral?

Your idea has already come up in this game.

[Moratorium]

We could have each player unvote, request a vote count (check if the unvote results in a lynch), then revote and in that manner determine if anyone in particular has a zero/negative vote. There is danger in doing this that we may reveal double voters, or potentially reveal powerful townies whose power roles are balanced by not having a vote.

Same sort of deal.

[Moratorium]

I knew you were zwets.

[Moratorium]

I have 0 voting power today. I did not get an explanation as to why (though I have a guess, if Yoshi has the same abilities as last game, than I might have been his target last night). I don't know whether or not my voting returns to normal again tomorrow, but I'd hope so.

Ah yes, I done forgot.

[Moratorium]

vote: miller13

[Moratorium]

Ortolan, I'd like to know more about your opinions of tajo, and in particular which elements of your case on him you think were retrospectively incorrect and led you to believe he was scum. Since you two were in such a heated debate, his flip implicates you by default, and I have to decide whether the implication is legitimate, or whether tajo was killed to put you in a bad light.

I'm not satisfied with you simply commenting on his death and moving on.

[Moratorium]

how do you know "tajo was deliberately killed to put me in a bad light" anyway

I don't. There are many options, but the ones that are important to my thought process right now are you being scum, or you being framed. If it's something else entirely, super duper.

[Moratorium]

Lawrencelot, please consider shortening the nightphase.

[Moratorium]

This one, not all nightphases.

[Moratorium]

Fun game, thanks Law. Bye.