The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[Firestarter]

If we elect a townie who's acting scummy or erratic, we'll effectively have killed two townies if the scummy mayor makes even a minor slip with regards to a lynch or another player. It's pretty much a flip of the coin.

I dont agree...

If we elect a player who's scummy or erratic prior to Mayorship being handed over, that same player will only be lynched if the scumminess/erratic behaviour continues.
Why would we want to lynch a Pro-town player?

[zwetschenwasser]

It's WIFOM, Fire. That's what bothers me. For example, many think that I have an anti-town playstyle. If by your theory, you make me mayor because of it, and I mistakenly contribute to a subsequent mislynch, I would be under more suspicion than any of the other players on the wagon. Not to mention that mayorizing the scummiest player makes them act more protown and makes it harder for us to decide whether he's scum trying to fit in with his new role or just a wishy washy confused townie. Overall, I think we should just do the normal mayor electing method of pro-towniness.

[Firestarter]

If we elect a player who's scummy or erratic prior to Mayorship being handed over, that same player will only be lynched if the scumminess/erratic behaviour continues.
Why would we want to lynch a Pro-town player?

...Which is why Im baffled as to why we are electing someone Pro-town...
Townies make bad calls, and a Townie Mayor is not immune to this.
1 or 2 bad calls/mis-lynches, and the concensus will be that the pro-town player needs to be relieved of their position... i.e, lynched.

Hence my "For" electing someone scummy into Mayordom.

UNVOTE for MAYOR

[zwetschenwasser]

But if we have a more suspicious mayor, it'll be much easier for either the scum to manipulate the town into lynching him earlier, or it'll be much easier for the scumbuddies to bus him and gain townpoints.

[Firestarter]

It's WIFOM, Fire. That's what bothers me. For example, many think that I have an anti-town playstyle. If by your theory, you make me mayor because of it, and I mistakenly contribute to a subsequent mislynch, I would be under more suspicion than any of the other players on the wagon. Not to mention that mayorizing the scummiest player makes them act more protown and makes it harder for us to decide whether he's scum trying to fit in with his new role or just a wishy washy confused townie. Overall, I think we should just do the normal mayor electing method of pro-towniness.

Zwet, if you are elected as Mayor, it'll be because enough people think your scummy enough, by my method.

If you continue to be anti-town in the Mayor role, then you will likely be lynched.

About your point about scum being as pro-town as possible after being elected....
Doesn't this negate their influence as scum?

Ive already talked about WIFOM with my method.. it will be majorly diluted if we can get Town to nominate the successor through the outgoing Mayor.

[Firestarter]

But if we have a more suspicious mayor, it'll be much easier for either the scum to manipulate the town into lynching him earlier, or it'll be much easier for the scumbuddies to bus him and gain townpoints.

For scum to manipulate Town in this stage of the game, no-one dead yet, all Townies alive, I think it'd be vastly more noticeable now than later in the game.

I'd much rather have a manipulative scummy player now as Mayor, than later in the game.

This is the crux of my suggestion.

BTW, for everyone else...

Has this method been used before in a Kingmaker type set-up?
The "Vote scummy players in as King/Mayor first" method...
I'd like to see how it panned out if it was.

[MikeSC6]

The way I'd understood it is that the mayor chooses their successor as they die, like in their will or something. If how I'd assumed it is true, it would lead to unnecessary WIFOM. We'd be suspicious if the scum differed from our choice, we'd equally be suspicious if they agreed with our choice.

[zwetschenwasser]

The mayor won't be the one manipulating, it'll be his scumbuddies or just plain simple opportunistic scum. A scum mayor makes easier for scum to coordinate mislynches once the mistakenly assumed scum mayor contributes to a mislynch, and makes it easier for the mayor's scumbuddies gain townpoints once they bus him to death. It's a win-win for the scum.

[Firestarter]

The way I'd understood it is that the mayor chooses their successor as they die, like in their will or something. If how I'd assumed it is true, it would lead to unnecessary WIFOM. We'd be suspicious if the scum differed from our choice, we'd equally be suspicious if they agreed with our choice.

If the outgoing Mayor chose someone else, I'd call it highly suspicious if they then flipped scum. But then again, we'd have just lynched a scumbag.

Winner everday.

If the outgoing Mayor chose someone else and then flipped Town, it would not be suspicous. It may be classed as anti-town to against Town wishes, but that would be it.

[zwetschenwasser]

Then what if a town mayor accidentally chooses scum? Then the scum has a free pass for a while.

[Firestarter]

The mayor won't be the one manipulating, it'll be his scumbuddies or just plain simple opportunistic scum. A scum mayor makes easier for scum to coordinate mislynches once the mistakenly assumed scum mayor contributes to a mislynch, and makes it easier for the mayor's scumbuddies gain townpoints once they bus him to death. It's a win-win for the scum.

I agree that the mayor possibly wont be manipulating, although it is not something that can be ruled out.
But what your saying is that the minority of scum would have to convince town to recieve a majority to lynch.
And even then, that minority would be going out on a limb to do this if ALL were pushing.

There are 21 players in game, what do you think the set-up consists of zwet?

[zwetschenwasser]

I have no idea what the setup is, but I'm saying that the scum would have an

easier

time doing what they have to do anyway to win: coordinate mislynches and possibly bus their partners.

[Firestarter]

Then what if a town mayor accidentally chooses scum? Then the scum has a free pass for a while.

This Ive addressed already...

A scum Mayor, in order to succeed will need to act Pro-town.
Thus negating their influence as scum.
There is no need to lynch a Pro-Town player until/if they deviate to a scummy player.
Ultimately, the choice of who gets lynched is determined through votes, and this early in the game, most of those votes will come from Town.
The Mayor, as I see it, will need to do Towns will, so if the Mayor is hesitant or otherwise, an alert Town should spot it.

In any case, A scum player can also be chosen by accident in any other process we ultimately use to elect a Mayor.

[zwetschenwasser]

But that doesn't address the benefits gained by the scum mayor's buddies.

[Firestarter]

I have no idea what the setup is, but I'm saying that the scum would have an

easier

time doing what they have to do anyway to win: coordinate mislynches and possibly bus their partners.

So, if we elect a Townie as Mayor, all scum can then influence the Mayors decision.

If we manage to elect a scumbag as Mayor, their influence is very little.
Particularly at this stage of the game.

I dont see why you think that scum will have it easier if "one of their own" is elected Mayor...
They'd be effectively 1 man light.

[Firestarter]

But that doesn't address the benefits gained by the scum mayor's buddies.

What benefits?

If anything, it'll be harder for scum to influence if a scum-mayor is elected when all players remain alive.

[zwetschenwasser]

Nope. If one of their own is elected mayor, then they can gain townie points by bussing them. The bussing would be more effective, and harder to confirm as bussing, because of the pedestal placed underneath the mayor. A mayor coordinating a mislynch is, as you said, worse than a townie coordinating a mislynch, so it would be easier for the scum to call their buddy out on the mislynches and effectively bus him WITHOUT the town saying anything (of course, because of the inevitable WIFOM that would ensue when the whole town is mad at the mayor for the mislynch).

[Firestarter]

Nope. If one of their own is elected mayor, then they can gain townie points by bussing them. The bussing would be more effective, and harder to confirm as bussing, because of the pedestal placed underneath the mayor. A mayor coordinating a mislynch is, as you said, worse than a townie coordinating a mislynch, so it would be easier for the scum to call their buddy out on the mislynches and effectively bus him WITHOUT the town saying anything (of course, because of the inevitable WIFOM that would ensue when the whole town is mad at the mayor for the mislynch).

Your missing the point, there would be no pedestal placed under the Mayor, as they would be elected through scumminess not pro-townieness.

[zwetschenwasser]

That is exactly my point, Fire. It's easier to find suspicion in a mayor elected through scumminess than through a mayor elected through towniness.

[Firestarter]

That is exactly my point, Fire. It's easier to find suspicion in a mayor elected through scumminess than through a mayor elected through towniness.

Nope.. I disagree wholeheartedly.

Suspicion will be rasied through scumplay/hesitancy/non-conforming to Town will, etc, etc.

[zwetschenwasser]

But the scum mayor will have a precedent of scumminess that anyone can take advantage of.

Can other people comment about this please? I'm unused to posting more than one liners...

[Firestarter]

But the scum mayor will have a precedent of scumminess that anyone can take advantage of.

Can other people comment about this please? I'm unused to posting more than one liners...

So you think that town players will take advantage of this??
I dont think so, Town scumhunt, and find

reasons

to lynch,

not

advantages.

That is reserved for scum in my book.

[zwetschenwasser]

But the town's scumhunting will be biased against the scummy mayor.

[Firestarter]

The feedback and questions so far have instilled in me further that we should go with electing a scummy player as Mayor.

If the scum player goes all "pro-town", then thats one influence diminished.
If not, then scumminess will be all the more noticeable.

And if we manage to elect a scumbag as mayor, we can then go on a quest to look for others.

If anyone has other concerns about my method, please post.

But again, if this method has been used in any other Kingmaker/Mayor games, I'd love to have a link to see how successful/disatrous it was

[zwetschenwasser]

*facepalm* I'll rest my case as it is and see what people think.