The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

The Fonz · Post Post #375 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:11 am

More scrutiny = having to act more town.

Where it really falls down is that if people were actually able to agree on someone 'likely to be scum,' they'd be lynched.

Yosarian2 · Post Post #376 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:11 am

Shadow Knight wrote:I think Xtoxm is trying too hard to GET lynched. This automatically makes me want to *not* lynch him.

I would reccomend against going off the "he's trying too hard to be lynched, we'd better not lynch him" WIFOM cliff here.

The Fonz · Post Post #377 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:13 am

Where's my 'I agree with Yos2' sign?

dingoatemybaby · Post Post #378 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:14 am

Yosarian2 wrote:
Shadow Knight wrote:I think Xtoxm is trying too hard to GET lynched. This automatically makes me want to *not* lynch him.
I would reccomend against going off the "he's trying too hard to be lynched, we'd better not lynch him" WIFOM cliff here.

I'm so far down that cliff I can't even tell which way is up anymore.

dingoatemybaby · Post Post #379 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:22 am

Alright fine.

Unvote
Vote Xtoxm

Shadow Knight · Post Post #380 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:26 am

I'm just saying that on day one, with this many players, there are better ways to make him dead than doing what he's trying to make us do. I watched a Jester destroy a game on another site, and I don't like 2nd place when we don't have to let him have 1st.

Think about it logically. What reason would *you* claim unlynchable on day 1? What usually happens to people who claim unlynchable? What usually happens to people who lurk? How about when they actively lurk? How about when they actively lurk and flaunt the fact that they are not going to answer questions? Everything he's done so far has *screamed* "lynch me". Who wants to be lynched *that* badly? Jesters. His own actions have ruled out any other role. A vampire would want to wait till late game (or at least until the scum were winning). A vanilla townie wouldn't be trying this hard.

I'm not saying to keep him alive by any means though. He wants to die, lets let him, but I'm saying not to waste a lynch on him.

The Fonz · Post Post #381 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:32 am

Shadow Knight wrote:I'm just saying that on day one, with this many players, there are better ways to make him dead than doing what he's trying to make us do. I watched a Jester destroy a game on another site, and I don't like 2nd place when we don't have to let him have 1st.

There's no such thing as second place. You either fulfil your win condition, or you don't.

Think about it logically. What reason would *you* claim unlynchable on day 1? What usually happens to people who claim unlynchable? What usually happens to people who lurk? How about when they actively lurk? How about when they actively lurk and flaunt the fact that they are not going to answer questions? Everything he's done so far has *screamed* "lynch me". Who wants to be lynched *that* badly? Jesters. His own actions have ruled out any other role. A vampire would want to wait till late game (or at least until the scum were winning). A vanilla townie wouldn't be trying this hard.

I'm not saying to keep him alive by any means though. He wants to die, lets let him, but I'm saying not to waste a lynch on him.

Why waste a vig, but not a lynch? It's a town-controlled kill either way. And yes, his play is consistent with being a Jester- so are about 1500 other examples of VI play i could note.

MikeSC6 · Post Post #382 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:33 am

He could be a vamp that chooses when to resurrect. It would be awful to get to lynch or lose and then have him turn up and make us lose it, or something like that. I'm all for directing a vigilante his way tonight.

It's quite plain that Xtoxm isn't trying to survive- he can't be both lynch and nightkill immune, and I still think it's scummy that he tried to trick us into thinking a failed lynch would make him a confirmed townie. Is an unlynchable scum-player just too unlikely?

Shadow Knight · Post Post #383 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:40 am

@The Fonz- because under normal circumstances, the vig shouldn't be shooting night 1. If we *tell* the vig to shoot (or give the scum and unopposed shot) we're not wasting anything.

Shadow Knight · Post Post #384 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:44 am

EBWODP- I'm assuming the scum would take the shot based on 1- not wanting 2nd place in the game either and 2- taking a confirmed killable over the possibly doc-protected one if they aim elsewhere. (yeah its a small chance they'll get foiled by doc protect, but why take a 93% chance over a 100%?)

DizzyIzzyB13 · Post Post #385 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:46 am

Why is everyone assuming we have a vig? Nobody has claimed vig, and we have no evidence that one exists in the game at the moment. Thus, we have to assume there isn't one for now, and in that case, we have to lynch Xtoxm.

zwetschenwasser · Post Post #386 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:47 am

Where did 93 come from, SK?

Shinnen_no_Me · Post Post #387 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:54 am

Shadow Knight wrote:I think Xtoxm is trying too hard to GET lynched. This automatically makes me want to *not* lynch him. He's lurking enough to piss people off and this is exactly what I would do if I wanted to get lynched, not if I wanted to prove myself as town and lynchable. I say we let him get vigged tonight. Either by the town actually having a vig or by the town as a whole directing the doc to *not* protect xtoxm. This gives the scum the option to either have a small chance of being foiled by the doc or take the sure kill on xtoxm.

This^

Last time I saw a player trying to get lynched so much ended up with a Jester lynch (taboo topic, but still a possibility). That's why I prefer to let him survive the first day and wait to see what night does to him.

On another topic, there's a big discussion regarding the scum or pro-town mayor, and in all of that there's always the same thing: the mayor gets the full responsibility of the lynch. Why's this? I mean, the mayor can have two votes, but that's not enough to lynch a player. What about the rest of the players? And here's why I think a pro-town player would do the role better, because it's less likely that he or she will let themselves be routed for a lynch they're not considering. Giving the mayorship to scum is not a good idea, IMO, but it's not enough to think that the one who proposed it is scum. It's just a different approach (one that uses too much wifom, I believe).

zwetschenwasser · Post Post #388 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:58 am

And it gives the scum's scumbuddies all the advantages I've spoken of a bunch of times.

The Fonz · Post Post #389 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:54 am

MikeSC6 wrote:He could be a vamp that chooses when to resurrect. It would be awful to get to lynch or lose and then have him turn up and make us lose it, or something like that. I'm all for directing a vigilante his way tonight.

Can we put the absurd conspiracy theories aside, please? There has never been a role like that in the history of mafia, and no competent mod would ever include one. If he *is* a judas role, then his chances of winning are highest if he delays his first lynch as long as possible.

The Fonz · Post Post #390 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:56 am

Shadow Knight wrote:EBWODP- I'm assuming the scum would take the shot based on 1- not wanting 2nd place in the game either and 2- taking a confirmed killable over the possibly doc-protected one if they aim elsewhere. (yeah its a small chance they'll get foiled by doc protect, but why take a 93% chance over a 100%?)

THERE IS NO SUCH THINK AS SECOND PLACE FOR FUCK'S SAKE!

The Fonz · Post Post #391 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:56 am

*thing.

dingoatemybaby · Post Post #392 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:05 am

The Fonz wrote:
THERE IS NO SUCH THINK AS SECOND PLACE FOR FUCK'S SAKE!

This is my fault. I used the term "second place" first. I believe I have seen this term used in regards to mafia, but it may have been off-site.

The Fonz · Post Post #393 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:10 am

The weird thing is why people get so worked up about Jesters. I mean, no-one ever thinks the town has done anything but won if they get rid of all the scum, but there's a survivor...

dingoatemybaby · Post Post #394 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:13 am

I'd just assume kill a jester. It is obviously not as good as killing scum, but it is better than killing town and prevents further distraction.

MikeSC6 · Post Post #395 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:14 am

The Fonz wrote:
MikeSC6 wrote:He could be a vamp that chooses when to resurrect. It would be awful to get to lynch or lose and then have him turn up and make us lose it, or something like that. I'm all for directing a vigilante his way tonight.
Can we put the absurd conspiracy theories aside, please? There has never been a role like that in the history of mafia, and no competent mod would ever include one. If he *is* a judas role, then his chances of winning are highest if he delays his first lynch as long as possible.

Someone mentioned that he could be a vampire- not knowing what this is, I checked the wiki. Which says...

"Alternatively the Vampire may have the option of whether or not they are resurrected, and also on which night they are resurrected."

So it can't be that absurd. It's not like I just pulled it out of nowhere.

The Fonz · Post Post #396 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:17 am

It's completely broken. Imagine a vampire resurrecting in lylo. I've never seen a reviver outside the Xylbot, and i've never seen one there that doesn't resurrect immediately.

Shadow Knight · Post Post #397 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:30 am

@DI- in a large game, one can assume the town has been given more than cop/doc/roleblocker/vanilla townie to choose from. And if you had read the entire post, you'd have seen that I'm ok with the scum killing him too as they don't want to take second place either.

@zwet- Basically, I estimated that 25% of the players are scum 75% of 21 is town (16 townies). Well one is xtoxm, so that leaves 15. and guessing that only 1 doc is active among the 15 options, gives scum a 14/15 chance of killing one (93%) vs the 100% chance of killing xtoxm who will definitely not have doc protection.

@The Fonz- Whether you want to say a jester wins "first" and then town and scum fight for "second" or if you want to say he wins "also", I'd rather the town win period, and not worry about other roles. (I've also never tried to win with the "lovers" role either. When I'm scum, I want to win as scum, when I'm town, I want to win as town.) I refuse to help a neutral role who has no reason to help us beat the scum win.

Shadow Knight · Post Post #398 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:33 am

The Fonz wrote:
MikeSC6 wrote:He could be a vamp that chooses when to resurrect. It would be awful to get to lynch or lose and then have him turn up and make us lose it, or something like that. I'm all for directing a vigilante his way tonight.
Can we put the absurd conspiracy theories aside, please? There has never been a role like that in the history of mafia, and no competent mod would ever include one. If he *is* a judas role, then his chances of winning are highest if he delays his first lynch as long as possible.

I agree with this. I don't think he is a ressurector.

BTW- its not dingo's fault, I used to play on salvation and they consider a jester win as first place, followed by town or scum.

The Fonz · Post Post #399 (ISO) » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:50 am

Shadow Knight wrote:
@The Fonz- Whether you want to say a jester wins "first" and then town and scum fight for "second" or if you want to say he wins "also", I'd rather the town win period, and not worry about other roles. (I've also never tried to win with the "lovers" role either. When I'm scum, I want to win as scum, when I'm town, I want to win as town.) I refuse to help a neutral role who has no reason to help us beat the scum win.

Therefore, do what helps the town most. If you think keeping alive Xtoxm helps the town's win condition, by all means, do that. But that's the criterion. If he's a third-party role, then his win condition is irrelevant- it's whether him being alive is pos or neg for town. And i'm starting to lean toward neg.