The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[Shadow Knight]

So we're agreed on the necessity for his death. We just need to agree on the method. I don't want to lynch him because I think the scum will kill him for us. I'd rather they NK him than a townie. If that also happens to negate his win condition then, yay, bonus.

[dingoatemybaby]

I doubt very much that scum will kill X if he is scum or third party. He is a serious distraction for the town, and will probably remain a likely lynch candidate. Why would they want to waste a night kill on that?

[Shadow Knight]

*if* a townie vig doesn't do it, then the reason the scum might is that every day we leave him alive (ignoring his posts if necessary), the following night will see that he is the only one to be guaranteed no doc protection, as the doc should be protecting townies, not 3rd parties. Personally, in a game this size, I would be shocked if there wasn't a townie vig though.

[Yosarian2]

Shadow Knight: If a jester wins or loses, it has absolutly no effect on the town's win condition, at all. Not even a little. In fact, generally, if someone *claims* jester, you *still* want to lynch them ASAP, just because you don't want to risk a jester getting into a lynch or lose situation where he votes himself, the scum votes him, and town loses. Besides which, jesters are incredibly rare on this site. ALmost every game, someone act scummy, and someone else says "BUT WHAT IF HE'S A JESTER???". First of all, he's almost certanly not; they're way too rare for that. And second of all, we don't care anyway. So that's why jester speculation is just a bad idea.

Anyway, moving on:

So we're agreed on the necessity for his death. We just need to agree on the method. I don't want to lynch him because I think the scum will kill him for us.

That dosn't make any sense. Why would the scum want to nightkill someone when there's a good chance that if they don't the town will use a lynch on him? Plus, are you now assuming he's not scum?

Now, if we lynch him and he dosn't die, thus semi-confirming his claim, *then* the scum *might* want to nightkill him, since he could be considered semi-confirmed by that point and thus a threat. But, in that case, we'll have gone an entire day/night cycle, and only lost Xtoxm (if there's only one killing scum group, anyway.) That's not bad, especally if other town power roles get a chance to do stuff.

[Yosarian2]

It's quite plain that Xtoxm isn't trying to survive- he can't be both lynch and nightkill immune, and I still think it's scummy that he tried to trick us into thinking a failed lynch would make him a confirmed townie. Is an unlynchable scum-player just too unlikely?

It's pretty darn unlikely, IMHO, for balance reasons. I would have said impossible, but that assumption bit me on the ass in Lost Boys mafia, when the cult recruiter claimed unlynchable; if he actually had been lynched, his "bodyguard" would have died instead of him. Still, a scum who, if you lynch him, he dosn't die? That seems terribly unbalanced; for one thing, it means if he gets into a 3 man endgame, he automatically wins, and that's a game design problem, IMHO. And that's just if he's 1 shot lynch immune. A scum who is completly lynch immune really is impossble, because that would mean that if the vig dies night 1 and that guy is still alive, the town just autoloses, which is horrible game design.

[ZONEACE]

Sorry for my absence folks.


I'll catch up and make a substantive post by wednesday

[Percy]

Wishing to get nightkilled by scum, absoltuly. Unless a town role gets really lucky, scum kill someone every night. If you are a vanillia townie, you WANT that someone to be you, rather then a power role.

OK, I can see the reasoning here now. Sorry it took me so long

However, an experienced player like Fonz or BM is more likely to use the double vote wisely. I'd rather have a town double-voter that participates as much as they normally would than a scum double-voter that participates rather than lurks (lurking being a scumtell).

I agree.

Vote: Yosarian2 for Mayor

as the most sensible protown player I've seen so far.

Yay. I like percy now that he unvoted me.

Er, what?

FoS

.

Anybody with 2 votes will always try to shake off the responsibily when the vote goes wrong, whether townie or scum. Just about in the case where everybody will want to hammer and then say "Now that he is townie, it was a wrong hammer, but he was scummy". Anybody disagreeing other would be playing a WIFOM game, and for that to happen is rare anyway.

See my earlier post:

I think those who want to be mayor should be motivated by a lack of selfishness - understanding that they are submitting themselves to greater scrutiny for the benefit of the town. Yeah, your vote counts more, but if you're wrong about a vote, it will be a lot harder to talk yourself out of getting lynched in retribution.

This is a good response to all of Firestarter's discussion as well. Whilst I agree that the mayor will be under greater scrutiny, I don't think handing the position to the scum is a good idea. We can still observe those we think are scummy and lynch them.

@Firestsarter: Let's say we elect a scummy mayor, who turns out to be actual scum. They participate in a bad lynch, we haul them over the coals for it, and lynch them. They choose a successor.... and we expect them to choose someone scummy as well?
Another note: what's to stop this mayor from playing ultra-conservatively, earning heaps of townie points for being a good mayor, and coasting along to the endgame when their position may have a disastrous effect on the game?
Ultimately I think your proposal is interesting, wrong, but not scummy.

No

Vote to lynch: Xtomx

.
My reasoning follows Dizzy's:

We don't know if there's a vig in the game

. If there isn't, Xtoxm doesn't die at night, no matter whether he's town or not. Why would scum kill him now when his mere existence is a distraction they can manipulate?

Xtoxm won't help us in any way. He won't full claim. He won't play the game. He'll just be siiting there being entirely useless and hurting the town until he dies. Therefore, we lynch him now to test his claim, since it's about the most useful thing that can be done with him.

Bolded section especially. Other players have been indicating that there is a vig (like Shadow Knight in 84 or Mike in 234), but I don't see why.

@Dizzy: I asked a few questions in my last post. Care to answer them?

I don't want to lynch him because I think the scum will kill him for us.

Why on earth would they do that?

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Ok, I've been convinced. X should be lynched today. It's true that it will be unlikely that he gets killed during N1, and would he be a Jester, it's better to get rid of him as soon as possible.

Unvote, vote: Xtomx

Btw, what happens if he's truly unlynchable?

[Firestarter]

@Firestsarter: Let's say we elect a scummy mayor, who turns out to be actual scum. They participate in a bad lynch, we haul them over the coals for it, and lynch them. They choose a successor.... and we expect them to choose someone scummy as well?
Another note: what's to stop this mayor from playing ultra-conservatively, earning heaps of townie points for being a good mayor, and coasting along to the endgame when their position may have a disastrous effect on the game?
Ultimately I think your proposal is interesting, wrong, but not scummy.

@Percy..

Good question, a valid concern and one that I haven't seen brought up already.
If this method was chosen, we'd need to adapt a policy lynch later in game (not too much later in game, mind) to ensure the elected Mayor was not scum.
The only way the Scum-Mayor would succeed as you say, would be through the lynching of scum and not necessarily "just" going along with Towns will.
If it included the lynching of scum, all well and good.
But the elected Mayor

would

have to be lynched as assurance.

************

Although Ive brought this method to the table, I can see that it will not be used to elect Mayorship.
Im happy to go with the method originally chosen..
However, I may try to ressurect this idea in a future game of this type, I'd like to see how it would pan out, anyways...

************

VOTE FOR MAYOR: The Fonz & Battlemage.

Ok, on the Xtoxm debate..
I wanted to see what else he'd post since I last posted my thoughts on him, and I think he's made 1 post of nothingness.
Basically, he wants to be lynched.. Why?
Lots of theories from alot of players, but ultimately, his actions are anti-town.

At any rate, I think the Mods post from page 3, post No. 2 is important in what we decide is the best course of action.

In this game, each day after the first will have a random event drawn from a deck of events I have created. Who knows what will happen? A global post restriction for that day? A new way to lynch people? People being temporarily removed from the game? Or something else entirely?

Nobody knows. Not even me. Well, I know the possibilities, but that's it.

Xtoxm may have a role that no-one has suggested yet, or his lynch is linked to the "random events" that will take place every 2nd day somehow...

If he's town, he may have some sort of descriptive text regards posting/win condition, etc, etc.. Hence his lack of input.
He clearly, imo, wants to be lynched...

Is there any other possibilites regarding his role?

[Mufasa]

Yes Reading through I want to "test" this UnLynchable that X has put out there so I will

unvote vote : xtomx

[Mufasa]

unvote vote: xtomx

fix

[Gorrad]

Yos is speaking much sense. As usual. Jester talk does nada except distract town from a lynch of someone who could hurt the town later. Xtoxm's refusal to state anything makes it clear in my mind he's not working to help the town out here. He could be just waiting for an 'I told you so', that seems like his MO, but I rather doubt it. He's stupid, not an asshole.

BM's still my top mayor choice. I'll swap to Yos if the next votecount shows him ahead of BM.

[Percy]

If this method was chosen, we'd need to adapt a policy lynch later in game (not too much later in game, mind) to ensure the elected Mayor was not scum.

So you're proposing that we should elect someone to mayor, and no matter how protown they seem later, no matter how many scum they lynch, we have to kill them anyway? I'm glad you've decided to abandon this plan.


Xtomx is at L-1, by my count. Any last words, X?

[Jahudo]

@Xtoxm: Can you confirm that an attempt to lynch you will result in an automatic no lynch situation and go directly to night? Please answer truthfully

As far as electing a scummy or towny mayor, I think that would be hard to come to a consensus day 1 and reads are weaker on day 1 so it’s a difficult strategy to realize. I think the mayor should be able to scumhunt on their own and vote on their own, so just because they may be wrong or disagree with you doesn’t mean they should be suspected more than a 1-voter. I’d rather give the towny player another vote to help a town-filled wagon. And we should treat them as any other player when it comes to deciding if they should be lynched.

He could be a vamp that chooses when to resurrect. It would be awful to get to lynch or lose and then have him turn up and make us lose it, or something like that. I'm all for directing a vigilante his way tonight.

How does that stop him from turning into a vamp if that is his power? We don’t know if we have a vig, specifically one that can control their shot, and we shouldn’t be trying to direct him anyway.

BM: Where are you, why were you so active in the first few pages and not so much now?

I could go for a DizzyIzzy or Shadow Knight mayor too. They are pretty vocal and focusing more on scum finding than theory talk. I’d like the benefit of watching their moves closer and giving them more power to scumhunt.

We can decide what to do with Xtoxm after he gets into the game. He’s got no reason to avoid this game and I’d like to hear his opinion in all matters.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Vote Count for Mayor:

(6)Battle Mage: Shadow Knight, Gorrad, Battle Mage, Jahudo, knox, Mufasa
(3)Yosarian2: Barrylocke, DizzyIzzyB13, Percy
(2)The Fonz: Yosarian2, Juls
(1)Xtoxm: Xtoxm,
(1)Shadow Knight: The Fonz
(1)Juls: zwetschenwasser
(1)Percy: dingoatemybaby,
(0)DizzyIzzyB13:
(0)Jahudo:
()MikeSC6:
(0)Dr Pepper:
()Barrylocke:
()dingoatemybaby:
()Firestarter:
()Gorrad:
()knox:
()Mufasa:
()Shinnen_no_Me:
()ZONEACE:
()Ztife:
()zwetschenwasser:

Not voting: Firestarter, Shinnen_no_Me, ZONEACE, Ztife, Juls, , MikeSC6, Dr Pepper

Vote Count for Lynch

(10)Xtoxm: Battle Mage, Gorrad, DizzyIzzyB13, Dr Pepper, Yosarian2, Barrylocke, dingoatemybaby, Percy, Shinnen_no_Me, Mufasa
(2)zwetschenwasser: Ztife, Firestarter
(2)Firestarter: zwetschenwasser, Shadow Knight
(1)Jahudo: Juls
(1)Gorrad: Xtoxm
(0)DizzyIzzyB13:
(0)Mufasa:
(0)Ztife:
()Battle Mage:
()The Fonz:
()Juls:
()Dr Pepper:
()Percy:
()MikeSC6:
()Barrylocke:
()dingoatemybaby:
()knox:
()Shadow Knight:
()Shinnen_no_Me:
()Yosarian2:
()ZONEACE:

Not voting: ZONEACE, Juls, The Fonz, knox, MikeSC6, Jahudo

With 21 votes in play it will take 11 to lynch or elect.

[Xtoxm]

I've realised...Not participating in unfair on the other players. gorrad and dizzy are twats.

Mod, please replace me

I apologise to everyone else.

[Yosarian2]

unvote:xtoxm

for now...might as well hear what the replacement has to say.

[Firestarter]

Uh..

MOD: I am voting for a Mayor
&
Could you answer my question I posted earlier on...
Can you confirm if the outgoing Mayor is required to post their successor in thread or by PM please?

[The Fonz]

unvote vote: xtomx

fix

This is your first lurk warning. If you do not start contributing more, your continued existence will become harmful to the town. Just popping up to agree with a substantial current of other player's thinking with no new analysis is scummy.

I'd like people's opinions on how to handle the Xtoxm replacement situ.

[Shinnen_no_Me]

We don't know if there's a vig in the game

. If there isn't, Xtoxm doesn't die at night, no matter whether he's town or not. Why would scum kill him now when his mere existence is a distraction they can manipulate?

Xtoxm won't help us in any way. He won't full claim. He won't play the game. He'll just be siiting there being entirely useless and hurting the town until he dies. Therefore, we lynch him now to test his claim, since it's about the most useful thing that can be done with him.

Bolded section especially. Other players have been indicating that there is a vig (like Shadow Knight in 84 or Mike in 234), but I don't see why.

Well, I, myself, believe that in such large game there should be at least one vig-type role. It's probably that I'm not the only one who thinks like this, as it's only logical to believe it. It's not like I have a real proof, more like logic taking into account the setup.

I don't want to lynch him because I think the scum will kill him for us.

Why on earth would they do that?

I usually don't like to answer questions pointed to other players, but I believe SK has answered this already. He said that killing X would be a sure death rather than the 93% or so chance of killing another player (due to a possible doc protection).

[The Fonz]

If there's not a vig, then X has to be town, or lynchable scum- because unlynchable scum is utterly broken if town doesn't have the opportunity to kill him at night, even more so than it would otherwise be.

[zwetschenwasser]

I was going to say that Xt might have been trying to draw the nightkill with a gambit, but his replacement request seems out of place with that. AAH! Too much WIFOM!!!

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I've realised...Not participating in unfair on the other players. gorrad and dizzy are twats.

Mod, please replace me

I apologise to everyone else.

In other words, people have ruined the fun I was trying to have at everyone else's expense and so I'm going to rtry and get replaced in a huff and throw out entirely uncalled for uinsults at people. Grow the fuck up, Xtoxm.

I'm more convinced he's scum now.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Sorry, I thought I'd posted a reply to this earlier. Good thing I didn't, I think you'll get better answe4rs now.

Also, here's a PBPA of Dizzy, with questions:
-Votes self for mayor
-Votes Xtomx for lynch, says she won't shift her vote unless she's "absolutely sure" the player is town

How can you be absolutely sure? Also, how dangerous do you think a scumayor is?

[/quote

I have no idea how dangerous a scum mayor is. I haven't played this kind of game before. Antything that gives scum a double vote does not, however, sound like a good thing on principal. As for being "absolutely sure"... well, you can't be, and I've softened on that due to the logical poiints made by people in the discussion of the theory of it. Hence, I have a vote on Yos now.

-BM accuses Dizzy of holding back until she can make a casting vote
-Dizzy replies with a simple "no I'm being wise", without really addressing his point
-Wants a lynch on Xtomx for meta as well
-Claims "There's far less obfuscation involved [in using your vote judiciously] than jumping from place to place."

I disagree - putting your votes down when you suspect someone makes it clear on re-reads and easier for the town to follow the paper-trail.

Well, we're at a philosophical difference then. I believe one gains a far better understanding someone's thinking as expressed through post content rather than simply following voting patterns.

-Starts using Shadow Knight's proposal of voting two people for mayor, and later claims that it's great because people have to show a preference other than self voting.

I'm reluctant to vote anyone for mayor who self-votes, simply because it gives me no good information and is available to both scum and town. Now you can still vote for yourself, and state a preference, apparently. Why not simply vote for someone else? If other people like your playstyle, they will vote for you. If you haven't stated that you don't want to be mayor, or even said that you

do

want to be mayor, you'll get over the line. I just don't understand why your self-vote is so important to you.

Self-vote is the vote that best allows me to attain my win condition. I find it hard to overlook that logic. The "Pick two people" approach forces you to go beyond that and enables clearer thinking that helps the game move along, since naturally, the only people who would be absolutely confident in voting for other people would be scum, since they know their win condition is equally served by their scumbuddies who are confirmed to be the same alignment and thus we're likely to come to a stalemate in mayor voting. I find that approach personally helpful.

[zwetschenwasser]

Dizzy, what are your thoughts on my anti-scum mayor concerns?