MKM II GAME OVER

[AceMarksman]

I would actually assume the opposite Shinnen because, and this delves heavily into WIFOM, that law would have given items to less powerful roles to even the playing field. I am guessing that every role is just as powerful as the next in this game.

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-zwetschenwasser (4): populartajo, pacman281292, AceMarksman, Shinnen_no_Me
-Shinnen_no_Me (2): Riceballtail, Surye
-Empking (1): zwetschenwasser
-populartajo (1): ortolan
-AceMarksman (1): Shadow Knight
-Gorrad (1): Empking
-killa seven (1): qwints

Not voting (6): killa seven, Moratorium, Dubya, Cream147, Gorrad, caf19

With 17 alive it takes 9 real votes to lynch.

[pacman281292]

Now that I think about this, I find it to be a not so good idea. If we assume as true that some roles can't buy items, we will assume that the ones that can are more powerful. By claiming who can and who can't, we're just giving the mafia a pretty good list of who they should kill at nights. Sorry, but I'm not finding that a very smart thing to do.

I hate you, specially when you say exactly what I was going to say

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Sorry. But seriously, claiming items is like a weak (but still useful for mafia) rolefishing.

[Empking]

I don't agree with item claiming and...

FoS; Those that item claimed

Especially due to Pop's definition of "confirmed town".

[AceMarksman]

Wait, emp, didn't you claim?

[Empking]

Wait, emp, didn't you claim?

I don't recall doing so.

[Shinnen_no_Me]

This game has 17 players, and the few last pages discussion has been dominated by only a few of us. Come on, people! Stop lurking. What are your thoughts on this? Do you think it's wise to item claim, when it may create a good NK list for mafia?

[Lawrencelot]

Everybody seems to be active except for Dubya. I pmed the first person on the replacement list.

Also, 2 people voted without unvoting first, these votes are not counted (I edited this in their posts).

[Shinnen_no_Me]

Oh, no. I wasn't requesting a prodding. Just saying that in last pages of discussion have been dominated by only a few of us, and that some players have not yet posted their opinions on this matter.

[caf19]

Shin, who in particular do you think needs to contribute more? Also, plz stop ignoring the questions I have previously asked you.

[Shadow Knight]

I'm willing to overlook Surye right now and consider it an honest mistake (at least until he does something else I find scummy).

At this point I have a feeling that based on the items available to the players and the way they are grouped, we have 3 anti-town teams. Mushroom Kingdom, DK Crew, and Wario Ware. I copied them from the OP here:

-Mushroom Kingdom only: mushroom, 1-up shroom, fireflower, star
-Bowser’s Castle only: green shell, red shell, poison shroom, bob-omb
-DK crew only: banana, barrel cannon
-WarioWare only: motorcycle

The following is all conjecture, so feel free to post your thoughts if you disagree. I'm only going into the scum items.

I'm guessing that the presence of the fireflower and barrel cannon mean that the scum have to *buy* their ability to kill. I have no idea what the motorcycle could be as I've never played any Wario games. The banana could be a roleblock power (that's all I can think of that a banana would do). The mushroom might make the scum harder to kill (like you had to get hit twice as super mario to die). The 1-up could create some kind of resurrection, so we had better watch the endgame. It would suck if we were at lylo and mario resurrected luigi who got lynched day 2. The only thing I've come up with for the star is invulnerability.

With that said- There are problems with my theory. 3 scum groups is a LOT. Even if its just mario and luigi for the mushroom kingdom, donkey and diddy kong for the DK crew, and wario by himself (like a SK), that's 5 scum and 12 town with 3 kills per night possible, and I don't see how a mod could create a write up that stacked against us.

Again, this was all conjecture and making educated guesses, but I think its important to know what we may be up against.

[ortolan]

I meant to do this a few days ago but

Unvote
Vote: Gorrad

...HA! Lawrencelot pulled a Space Monkey on us! I completely fell for it, too. I thought I was scum.

Mod: NICE one

As much as I hate to say it, Zwet's in the clear this game. Mafia would know that the Army was the uninformed and therefore NOT make that slip. Town that thought they were scum? That's right up their alley.

Unvote, Vote: AceMarksman

FoS: Shinnen_no_Me

This came across as unconvincing. I strongly suspected from the get-go I was actually town rather than a traitor role- there's several indications that this is the case. I also don't understand your thought process in voting/FoSing these players. You don't think zwet is scum because scum would know that the bad guys are the uninformed majority, but how does this make them scummy for voting for him?

And I don't like the fishing in 135:

More clarification: the mario game I spend most of my time on is Galaxy, and my role has an older baddie in it which doesn't get much facetime in Galaxy I'm afraid.

A quick glance at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_enemies combined with my own knowledge of Galaxy, means that there are only a handful of roles that fit. I still don't buy it.

The only reason it would be useful to further discuss his role would be if his lynch was likely and it was claim time. His lynch wasn't going to happen at that point in time though. I also don't like how sure of yourself you seem here when his "mistake" wasn't necessarily scummy.

I thought I was scum, as my role was a Mario Baddy. I was wrong. I expect most townies to, like me, not have understood at first that they were town due to Bowser's Army traditionally being the bad guys. Therefore I suspect you and Ace, as y'all assumed that every townie knew they were such, despite the fact that the flavor is counter-intuitive.

To clarify why I thought I was scum despite being uninformed, I basically thought I was a traitor-type role. AKA one with a scum win condition who is uninformed.

How do you know they couldn't have inferred or simply queried with the mod whether they were in fact town? And if you assume that the Mushroom Kingdom know they're the informed majority, why might they not also be informed of the fact that Bowser's Army don't actually know that they are town to begin with? If this is the case then is potentially a point

for

AM and Shinnen being town.

Exactly. The town will always (or well, who knows, so let's say usually) be the uninformed majority. The flavour has nothing to do with this. However, I want to believe for now that Gorrad really thought that he was one of the bad guys. In the other hand, Zwet's slip is just too big to ignore. However, taking into account the item list the mod posted, there's also a chance that he belongs to a third party, thus why the surprise. One way or another, I'm happy with my vote.

I don't like this either. Seems like she's trying to avoid stepping on Gorrad's toes while aiming for zwet the easy target.

We can assume that scum would know that Bowser's army is town and so wouldn't make any obvious mistakes, but assuming there is a DK and a Wario in the game they could still have been caught out by it. Therefore I dont think we can wholly confirm Zwet at this point.

I would assume the scum know at least as much as the town do, including how much knowledge town have about whether they're really town or not.

Empking's vote on Gorrad is well-justified (it's for similar reasons to mine really).

Also, I have this creepy feeling that we wake up Day 2 and find out that this isn't Scum-is-Town and Town-is-Scum, but instead this is just some quasi-random "Day 1 with the lights out!" and suddenly we all recognize each other again and only then does the true informed minority get established with more role PM's and whatever...

After having just outed ourselves voluntarily on Day 1.

Nightmare scenarios. Sad

Not sure I like this too much. A game where our factions/win cons changed entirely after day 1 is bastard modish and also renders the entirety of day 1 pointless or an exercise in culling a few extra people before the proper start of the game. Our abilities are "interesting" though

Y'see, this is what I have against Ace. He wasn't at all confused by his role, and automatically assumed no one else would be. AND he didn't recognise his role, supposedly, as a Mario baddy. Personally, I find that nigh-impossible unless he has a named villain (I find this unlikely due to the deaths of most of said named villains in MKMI, AKA Bowser, Baby Bowser, and Drybones. There aren't many left).

I still really dislike Gorrad's attempts to pin people as scum based on "role behaviour". Again I've no doubt the scum would be well-warned in advance of how to fit in and act townie- it would simply be unbalanced otherwise. This makes me more suspicious of Gorrad actually.

Wait a second.

We have items that only Bowser's Army know how they work.
Can we massively confirm people with this?

I highly doubt it. No practical way of doing it, game-breaking so presumably the mod has measures against it etc.

I would say we can possibly confirm 4 people.

True. By paraphrasing the effects. Technically we would do something really lame like "what is the seventh letter in the description for this item" but I don't think that will be treated kindly by the mod,

amirite, mod?

So is the assumption here that basically Law didn't put anything in the scum role pm's that says "Hey, by the way, in case town tries this tactic, here's the list of items that town can buy and their powers"?

(started taking a shower, and this thought came to me)

Very good point which I thought of as well. The interesting thing about this, though, is that (possibly ) at least one of the items seems to be rendered useless or at least much less useful if one's enemy knows what it does (which

may

suggest they can't know what our items do).

No, because there are some roles, like mine, that aren't allowed to buy items.

ok, scratch that then.

Item questioning seems like a good tactic currently, if we can think up enough questions to make it work. Even if we do end up with a few players claiming not to have been given knowledge of the items, we can just separate them off first and then question everyone else. It's probably not enough to nail scum on its own but it'll give us info.

Nah I'm actually getting increasingly against this idea. If scum

do

know what the items do already then we're heavily shooting ourselves in the foot. I'm convinced Lawrencealot wouldn't allow us to catch scum in this manner.

Agree with Shinnen's 203.

I'm fine with item claims to reduce the pool somewhat. However, as I too cannot purchase items (and therefore do not know what they do), I'm willing to

Unvote: Ace

. I don't think that scum would know that there were roles that had that particular twist.

Second to claim this after someone's already cleared the way = still consistent with being scum.

Its a risk we should take.
But do you think we wont find scum in this exercise?

This is the second time tajo has role/itemfished, and in a different manner to the first time. Strongly considering moving my vote back onto him.

I am not telling you whether I have item descriptions or not.

I'm guessing that the presence of the fireflower and barrel cannon mean that the scum have to *buy* their ability to kill. I have no idea what the motorcycle could be as I've never played any Wario games. The banana could be a roleblock power (that's all I can think of that a banana would do). The mushroom might make the scum harder to kill (like you had to get hit twice as super mario to die). The 1-up could create some kind of resurrection, so we had better watch the endgame. It would suck if we were at lylo and mario resurrected luigi who got lynched day 2. The only thing I've come up with for the star is invulnerability.

A lot of this (especially the first sentence) don't follow at all to me.

[Shadow Knight]

@orto- I was following the idea that if one of the town items is rendered useless, then the same might be true of one or more of their items. We might be able to come up with ways to negate their items if we can figure out their function. Fireflowers give mario the ability to kill (although he can jump on most things to kill them). I've played DK Country once or twice at most, but I figured a barrel cannon was kind of self explanatory. Trying to convert the game items to mafia items that are still flavorful is kind of hard, but it may benefit us to make the attempt.

[populartajo]

Unvote Vote : Ortolan.

[Empking]

Unvote Vote : Ortolan.

Why?

Question to everyone: If you were modding a game in what order would you put these roles in your modnotes or role PM order: Mafia, SK, Lyncher, Town, Jester, Survivor.

[populartajo]

Ill give reasons for my vote later when I have the time but this guy is just too obvious or too antagonistic to the town be true.

I know that confirming people with role information is kinda lame but it's legal if done properly (last game we kinda did this) and it seems like you dont want to help the town and you are asking the mod for punishing us for trying to find a way to break the game.

Sigh.

But now, I prepared some notes yesterday and Im sharing this with you. Information is very important here.

Just FYI and specially knowing how people like to compare this game to the previous MKI game, here are some additional facts you may or may not know:

a) We definitely have roles more important than others, however these are not pretty different the one from the other aside from number of coins and voting abilities. In last game, we had Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, etc and a bunch of Toads (vanilla townies). However, EVERY role can become a pain in the ass with the right plan and items. I was a confirmed Toad last time and we managed to rape scum ass with gamebreaking strategies.

b) Last time, we had 1 mafia group (Bowser's Army), 2 anti-town third partys coin stealers with different win conditions (DK and Wario) and 1 town. Its very probable we are facing the same scenario.

c) Bowser's Army, last time, had a shared nightkill but could buy additional kills in fireflower or star form. Dk and Wario didnt have any NKs.

[Empking]

b) Last time, we had 1 mafia group (Bowser's Army), 2 anti-town third partys coin stealers with different win conditions (DK and Wario) and 1 town. Its very probable we are facing the same scenario.
.

Now that's definitely very useful info.

[populartajo]

Now that I think about this, I find it to be a not so good idea. If we assume as true that some roles can't buy items, we will assume that the ones that can are more powerful.

Actually Im not a powerful role but I still can buy items.

FoS : Shinnen

for making weak assumptions and comploting against a very good plan.

[zwetschenwasser]

I think we should only confirm the people that have already itemclaimed, as the others who are against it provide too much WIFOM.

[populartajo]

First, I want everyone that doesnt have the description of their items in their PMs to step forward, plz.

Ill make a list, feel free to add you to the list.

People with items description

Tajo
Zwet
Qwints
caf19
pacman

People with no items description

Gorrad
Ace
Shadow Knight

Refusing to

Empking
Ortolan
Shinnen

Still no claim

k7
Cream
Rice
Surye
Mora
Dubya

[populartajo]

Now that I think about this, I find it to be a not so good idea. If we assume as true that some roles can't buy items, we will assume that the ones that can are more powerful. By claiming who can and who can't, we're just giving the mafia a pretty good list of who they should kill at nights. Sorry, but I'm not finding that a very smart thing to do.

I hate you, specially when you say exactly what I was going to say

FOS

you for the same reasons Shinnen was fosed.

[zwetschenwasser]

[populartajo]

[zwetschenwasser]

I don't see anything particularly scummy in the pacman post.

[ortolan]

a) We definitely have roles more important than others, however these are not pretty different the one from the other aside from number of coins and voting abilities. In last game, we had Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, etc and a bunch of Toads (vanilla townies). However, EVERY role can become a pain in the ass with the right plan and items. I was a confirmed Toad last time and we managed to rape scum ass with gamebreaking strategies.

b) Last time, we had 1 mafia group (Bowser's Army), 2 anti-town third partys coin stealers with different win conditions (DK and Wario) and 1 town. Its very probable we are facing the same scenario.

This is an entirely different game. Outguessing the mod on number of scum factions and third parties at this stage in the game is just silly (Especially because the first game was considered biased towards town, wasn't it?).

I can also think of many circumstances where scum could glean much simply by knowing who can buy items and who can't.