Open 135 - Polygamist Mafia, Incomplete/Mod Error before 775

[mykonian]

I think wall-e needs more pressure before he wants to talk. But he is only avoiding the questions on him now. He could have answered them a long time ago.

Wall-e, I seem to remember this was a big part of your play too. You thought questions were quite important, and that you answered them always. And that it was scummy if you didn't answer. What does it mean that you don't answer?

[Looker]

mykonian you're being nice. u weren't nearly this nice to me in other games...u lynched my ass the first chance you got...

[mykonian]

you improved, and that positively surprised me. BTW, I lynched because you refused to answer questions, that makes me think you had no answers. BTW, ongoing game, but now I know you, in other games I also adjusted my play to you. I only hope you won't become someone like archon, or zwet, that are proud of their playstyle, and keep it bad.

I know I'm not really complete here, but I didn't lynch you because I didn't like you or something. If you want to talk more about this, it is fine, but of course you've got to understand that talking about ongoing games is a bit tricky.

[AceMarksman]

mykonian, why do you feel that 341 makes them not scum? I think the opposite, actually.

[mikek]

Um?

Wait, how do I keep gettin caught up in this Wall-E/Looker lover situation? That ain't got nothin to do with me so keep that little unfunny jokey joke attributed to Wall-E cause it ain't none of my business.

Also, the strong buddying between [Archon] and Wall-e is noted, and I now think the scum team is: Archon/zwet/Wall-e/Looker.

Post 341 means that Wall-E and Looker cannot credibly claim to be lovers, so that can't be the scumteam.

Archon and zwet claimed lovers. In 341 Looker claimed that he's not Wall-E's lover. So it can't be that Archon, Zwet, Looker, and Wall-E are all scum (or if they are, they've really screwed up because now Wall-E and Looker have no lover to credibly claim). Is this really that complicated?

Wall-E, you're pretty exasperating. Try answering some questions and giving some reasoning behind your actions (if there is any).

[Looker]

waiting for some pillow-talk, will get back to you on the whole lover-claim thing...

[AceMarksman]

^This makes me think looker is scum, he needs to work out with his polygamist buddies who to claim with.

[zwetschenwasser]

you improved, and that positively surprised me. BTW, I lynched because you refused to answer questions, that makes me think you had no answers. BTW, ongoing game, but now I know you, in other games I also adjusted my play to you. I only hope you won't become someone like archon, or zwet, that are proud of their playstyle, and keep it bad.

I know I'm not really complete here, but I didn't lynch you because I didn't like you or something. If you want to talk more about this, it is fine, but of course you've got to understand that talking about ongoing games is a bit tricky.

Someone's not paying attention. I'm changing my playstyle also, if you'd take the time to actually read some of my games.

[Wall-E]

Um?

Wait, how do I keep gettin caught up in this Wall-E/Looker lover situation? That ain't got nothin to do with me so keep that little unfunny jokey joke attributed to Wall-E cause it ain't none of my business.

Also, the strong buddying between [Archon] and Wall-e is noted, and I now think the scum team is: Archon/zwet/Wall-e/Looker.

Post 341 means that Wall-E and Looker cannot credibly claim to be lovers, so that can't be the scumteam.

Archon and zwet claimed lovers. In 341 Looker claimed that he's not Wall-E's lover. So it can't be that Archon, Zwet, Looker, and Wall-E are all scum (or if they are, they've really screwed up because now Wall-E and Looker have no lover to credibly claim). Is this really that complicated?

Wall-E, you're pretty exasperating. Try answering some questions and giving some reasoning behind your actions (if there is any).

I miss questions sometimes because I find something I want to say and forget to answer them. I'll gladly answer anyquestions, please be patient with em.

I had an idea based on the Looker/Me thing. Everyone should go around now and say the name of one player who is NOT their lover. No two people are allowed to say the same person. From this I will be able to divine several things using Excel. Thoughts? Looker's already done me, so I'll say that Acemarksman is not my lover.

[Wall-E]

Please note that nobody is being forced to do this! Let's discuss it first!

[zwetschenwasser]

Why not say that in the first place? Why go ahead with it before discussion?

[Wall-E]

I was just wondering that myself. I got all excited over my idea. Sorry.

[mikek]

Instead of starting yet another tangential discussion you should slow down, stop flailing, and answer the questions being asked of you.

Why did you go from defending Archon to voting for him?
Why did you claim scum?
Why did you name Looker as a scumpartner?
Why did you unvote Archon?
Why did you vote for me?

[mikek]

Lol, Wall-e, you're crazy. Why are you trying to distract everyone? Which one of either Tenchi or Archon is on your scumteam?

I'm starting to think this may be what he's doing. He's voted for both of them at one point, but his antics have really distracted from the whole Tenchi vs Archon business. Scum running interference?

[Wall-E]

Instead of starting yet another tangential discussion you should slow down, stop flailing, and answer the questions being asked of you.

Why did you go from defending Archon to voting for him?
Why did you claim scum?
Why did you name Looker as a scumpartner?
Why did you unvote Archon?
Why did you vote for me?

I defended Archon because I believed him to be town.

I voted him to see what the reaction would be.

The joke was a joke, both partially to see how Archon would react and test my meta on him and to see how the town reacted to the possibility of his lynch.

I unvoted Archon because I still think he's town.

[Wall-E]

Assembling the answer to the last one.

[Wall-E]

Instead of starting yet another tangential discussion you should slow down, stop flailing, and answer the questions being asked of you.

Why did you go from defending Archon to voting for him?
Why did you claim scum?
Why did you name Looker as a scumpartner?
Why did you unvote Archon?
Why did you vote for me?

I defended Archon because I believed him to be town.

I voted him to see what the reaction would be, both partially to see how Archon would react and test my meta on him and to see how the town reacted to the possibility of his lynch.

The joke was a joke.

I unvoted Archon because I still think he's town.

Fixed.

[mykonian]

Wall-e, it was one big gambit?

what did you get out of it?

and for the new people: please don't use things like this. This is or an excuse for scummy play, or town that made a play that is hurting him, and giving low profit.

[Wall-E]

PBPA: mikek

First post: Confirmation

Second post: After giving zwets a pass on his one-liner posting style due to meta, he goes on to parrot someone else's call-out of Pie's mini-flip-out. Next, he says this:

By the way, I'm pretty sure that we're going to massloverclaim before this day is up. This will provide us with useful info---it greatly reduces the number of possible combinations of players that could be polygamists, which makes it easier to analyse votes and such. I don't think it gets the polygamists much, either.

This rhetoric without reasoning is him greasing the wheels for a lover claim because he knows it would help the scum more than the town (it's case-by-case, but any massclaim is usually a bad idea day 1, in my honest opinion). He goes on, in his third post, to justify the massclaim's usefulness, because he's already stuck his head in.

I vote him and state my suspicions, and he ignores me, instead posting this:

About massclaim, I looked back at the previous polygamist game (viewtopic.php?t=9086) and they unanimously went for massclaim by the end of page 2. Thinking it through, here are what I see the advantages and disadvantages as being:

Pros

• Simplifies the game
  - A massclaim reduces the number of distinct entities from 12 to 6. It basically reduces this game to Lovers Mafia (4 townies, 2 mafia lovers) except with each "person" having two votes and two voices. Instead of looking for a group of 4 in 12 individuals, we'll be looking for 2 groups out of 6 to be linked. This exponentially reduces the number of possible groupings we have to hypothesize about.
  
• Can help catch scum
  - Once we know everyone's claimed lover, we can look more skeptically at any linkings/distancings between people who claim not to be related. Scum may have contradicted themselves or revealed inconsistencies, depending upon what situations arise.
  
• Removes noise
  - We've got a bit of a problem initially in that if two people seem to be linked, it could just be because they are a townie lover pair. Once we know all the claimed pairs, we won't get this noise interfering with scum hunting.

Cons

• Reveals targets
  - If a pair of townies are both particularly scummy or weak at defending themselves, that might make them a target for the scum to try and push a lynch on.
  
• Trains scum
  - Once the polygamists have made their false claims in-thread, they'll be more aware of the possibility of slipping up and revealing their true status.

Anything else? The conclusion I draw from this is that a massclaim gets us more information than it gets the polygamists, and it gets us more useful information if we don't do it right away. So I think we're going to want to massclaim eventually, but not right now. Probably late day one or early-to-mid day two. Thoughts?

Talking about something, even to denounce it (which he's clearly not) is a sign of interest. Like the little kid who studiously avoids looking at girl in his class or a man who repeatedly begins discussions about how vile he finds a certain kind of pornography... mikek, by talking (albiet neutrally) about a lover claim, is demonstrating a positive desire for it. The sooner the better.

His fourth and fifth posts are 'chime-in on the hot-topic' posts. His tone is neutral at best.

At this point zwetschenwasser and Tenchi got into the most ironic circle-jerk of a WIFOM mindbang I've ever seen and it's hilarious. Tenchi tried to teach zwets why his actions were anti-town by doing the same thing back

to him

and wound up getting voted for it.

Note here, in [*code*] tag to differentiate it from the case on mikek:

Code: Select all

sekinji uses rhetoric to back mikek's attempts to keep the massclaim idea circulating. Possible connection.

...but then...

182 has me thinking he's town.

231 nearly eliminates Archon as scum in my book once-and-for-all: Despite this I vote him to see his reaction.

247: zwetschenwasser continues to be a spaz. I'm really starting to hate that the most town-looking candidate is so linked to him, and being never 100% sure of anyone, I'm starting to push my zwets policy lynch a bit harder.

OK, Easter weekend was a busy time for me and other people too, by the looks of things. Let's get cracking.

Firstly, welcome to our new players, Jazzmyn and Looker!

Secondly, wow, y'all post a lot. Got 100+ some posts to catch up on here. I won't comment on every little thing that catches my eye, although I'll be taking some extra notes for cross-referencing later. One thing I think will be useful is noting down who seems like they could or couldn't be partners and why. This might catch scum forced to claim.

Page 6: Tenchi prodding zwet further. Apparently zwet doesn't think Wall-E, Archon, or Ace have valid reasons for voting for him, but doesn't give any justification.

What about it?

Page 7: Tenchi says Archon's last few posts have been content-light. I think that's fair. ortolan makes a long post, most of which I agree with. What I find odd about it is how much he defends zwet (subtly, but he does). He also questions AceMarksman vis-a-vis the massclaim discussion. Ace responded:

Linking players together into scum-triangles. Further clears zwets/Archon in my book.

My argument was "your cons in your previous post outweigh the pros IMHO." And this standpoint was for today, and I never supported not claiming at all, just massclaiming. We've got to see our position tomorrow to determine if a massclaim is needed.

His reasons are pretty vague but I think I've come to generally agree. My position: massclaim day one only if we can determine it will really help in some tangible way (probably don't). Massclaim day two when it's useful. This may be towards the end to allow us all the logic available to make the right choice, or it may be early on on Day 2 to direct our thoughts and scumhunting. What we should definitely not do is claim Day 1 unless it's obviously beneficial.

[a small amount of hot-topic commentary with fence-sitting, then...]

To me, those favouring early massclaim are suspicious; those who think it is suspicious to favour a massclaim later, e.g. Day 2 are suspicious; those who are defending those who appear to favour an early massclaim are suspicious. This means Archon, Zwet, Ortolan, and Mikek.

I don't think I fit into any of those categories, so I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Again, fixated on the massclaim idea and commenting mostly on his own scummy call for it.

Jazzmyn makes the case that in this game zwet is not town with a scummy playstyle, but scum with a scummy playstyle! She also notes that Ortolan has been defending zwet, and that Archon's claim to be removing a random vote wasn't quite kosher. Possible linkage?

More linking of other players into triangles.

Tenchi again asserts/asks that Zwet and Archon cannot be buddies. Zwet claims that bussing is not a viable tactic here. He's right scum cannot afford any of their own to be lynched, but he's not right that this means they can't argue/distance. Ace and Jazz question zwet's interpretation, and Wall-E is moved enough to actually place a vote.

Page 9: Archon OMGUSs Tenchi and asks for people not to vote zwet. Wall-E immediately unvotes and follows the vote onto Tenchi. WTF is that about? Tenchi and Ace call him out on this. Zwet says Wall-E is obviously town because he's acting crazy and... unvotes tenchi.

Archon gets worked up...

Tell you what. Everyone post a link to one game in which you were scum.

Sorry, I've never been scum.

Page 10: Looker replaces sekinj.

Ace calls out Archon on his OMGUS vote and votes for him. I think his logic is good.

Archon claims his lover is zwet. Um. This is a big thing, more on this below. Zwet confirms. Wall-E votes Archon (reasonable..).

Zwets makes a stupid joke claim. Wall-E votes him for it (?).

OK, that's basically up to where we are now.

So the biggest issue at this point I think is Archon's claim and whether we believe it. Frankly I find it kind of frustrating reading back over Archon and zwet's posts. They both seem to be very erratic players, however this could easily just be the way they play rather than an alignment-tell. Honestly, they've both been very anti-town. Archon with his claim (after consensus that early claim is bad!) and zwet with his... well... shall I say zwettishness?

What I find hardest to understand is the exchange between zwet and Archon on page 7. It doesn't make sense to me with them as town, and it doesn't make sense to me with them as scum, either. If they're town, why is zwet casting suspicion on Archon? Why call him a liar? If they're scum trying to distance, why on Earth did Archon claim zwet as partner? Are they just scum acting totally irrationally so we can't read them?

I also notice that Archon cast his first vote for Zwet, for asking why Pie is alive. Distancing? When he removed this later he claimed it had been a random vote, which does not ring true (as Jazzmyn said). Did he realize his error and try to correct it?

Archon's response to Tenchi accusing him of lurking was off kilter. Ever since then he's appeared very angry.

What we have to decide is what is Archon's motivation here. Is he a townie who's genuinely pissed off and claiming his partner because he's fed up? Is he scum who has melted down and claimed a lover in the belief this will remove suspicion? Is he scum who's feigning being a pissed off townie to clear himself and one of his scum partners? I know which way I'm leaning on this question, but I'd like to see everyone active and commenting on this situation.

Mod: Can you prod PieIsPopcorn please.
Mod: Votecount, please.

- Wall-E's note: This isn't scumhunting.

@Archon: Why did you claim, what is your reasoning here? Why did you vote for your claimed partner in the first post?

@zwet: Why were you arguing with your claimed partner on page seven? What's up with the stupid falseclaim?

@ortolan: Why were you so defensive of zwet in your big post?

@Tenchi: Why didn't you ask the mod to prod PieIsPopcorn? What do you think about your earlier claim Archon + zwet cannot be buddies together, now?

Despite all the scummy things I've done - voting with no justification, declaring one claimed lover scum and his partner town, throwing an accusation on mikek with no real explaination - he fails to even basically scumhunt by directly addressing me with a single question. Instead he's focusing on the clusterfuck WIFOM mindbang exclusively and pushing the massclaim by trying to keep the town on-topic about it. Once even one person claims he'll have useful information, and as long as he plays it cool he always has a safeclaim in one of his three partners.

A golfball sitting near a hole will never fall into the hole. It's only when the ball is moving that it can fall in. Discussion about a massclaim is the movement (regardless of the direction, it's still movement) and the massclaim is the ball. Actually doing it is when someone drops the ball into the hole, at which point we can't get it back (no metaphor is perfect).

More to come.

[Wall-E]

Wall-e, it was one big gambit?

what did you get out of it?

and for the new people: please don't use things like this. This is or an excuse for scummy play, or town that made a play that is hurting him, and giving low profit.

What percentage value does a vote have weighed against a huge block of text that clears someone as town?

That's the only defense I will give on this issue.

[zwetschenwasser]

I hate pbpa's. They're a way to mask active lurking.

[mykonian]

Wall-e, what are you doing here?

You do two things: you say massclaim is bad, and he is advocating it

you say it is bad to look for unnatural links.

This is the way this game has to be played: first, you try to find links, or make them unlikely, after that, by massclaim, you can see who lied about there lovers, who reacted weird on their lovers etc. Mike has read a previous game, scumhunts in a way that is required for this game, and all you can say is: "massclaim is always bad", and "he is looking at connections"

why is massclaim always bad? because with the nightkill, mafia can abuse it: there is no nightkill, so a massclaim benefits town because it gives us information, and that same information can't be abused by mafia. The fact that you step over this because "massclaim is always bad" is rubbish.


and connections, seriously, you want to be looking for them. IT IS A LOVER GAME! What do you want to be looking for, if the only thing that differentiates scum from town is that they have two more links? No town wants his lover to die, something that is the way you look for scum in a normal game. Here you need to look as mike does, and you call him scummy for it.

Wall-e, please stop this insanity. You were better in the start of the game.

[mykonian]

I hate pbpa's. They're a way to mask active lurking.

you are back! I started to miss you...

[AceMarksman]

wall-e, why did you choose a PBPA of mikek of all people? He isn't under the gun at all. I would actually have to agree with zwet (gasp) that doing a PBPA on someone who isn't a big suspect at the moment is active lurking. I suggest doing one on our biggest suspect (archon), or are you afraid do analyze your scumbuddy?

[mykonian]

Wall-e, it was one big gambit?

what did you get out of it?

and for the new people: please don't use things like this. This is or an excuse for scummy play, or town that made a play that is hurting him, and giving low profit.

What percentage value does a vote have weighed against a huge block of text that clears someone as town?

That's the only defense I will give on this issue.

I feel bad about this, but I don't understand it. Could you please rephrase it?