Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[Raging Rabbit]

Finished rereading. Today definitely changes things.

TDC - why did you spent the entire period I was away arguing with eldarad on one single point, instead of trying to come up with a case to explain your "lean" towards me?

eld - Since I appeared much more likely to vote for you than for TDC yesterday, why do you think TDC-scum chose to start today expressing a lean on me?

[Raging Rabbit]

But it tells you whether there are people that could potentially qualify for her statement, and would allow you to test the claim.

But you didn't say anything about boosting said vanillas, you were questioning their existence.

It's obviously a double standard, makes no sense and fits right into what else was part of his crap case.

So you think his plan was to get you lynched/vigged and have both him and eld survive the day/night cycle?

[TDC]

TDC - why did you spent the entire period I was away arguing with eldarad on one single point, instead of trying to come up with a case to explain your "lean" towards me?

Because I didn't had much of a case (we've been there already, haven't we? How it all boiled down to his plan vs your mysterious gc-is-town stance, etc) and eld started "suspecting" me for being against his stupid boost-plan.
I hoped that once you actually did your promised re-read your post would help me solidify my lean.

But you didn't say anything about boosting said vanillas, you were questioning their existence.

We're starting to go in circles now.

While Electra's information is not really testable right now, a mass claim without any plain vanillas would hurt her credibility a lot. (I am assuming that if what she says is true, vanillas that do not know about their boost are not boostable.. though that's just speculation).

I clearly liken the boostability to the existance of vanillas that don't know squat (and I think that's a reasonable assumption).
I don't see how I question the existance ever. As I've said before, I just express that in the long run her claim IS testable, contrary to other people's belief and that hence, she would be stupid to fake claim false information.
If this sounded as if I didn't believe her, why has nobody ever asked me about it when I was simultaneously boosting her, had defended her against Guardian's "my role is different" crap and so on?
I really can't do anything about the backwardness of the formulation than tell you that I tried not to put the "I'm a useless vanilla"-cap on my head.

So you think his plan was to get you lynched/vigged and have both him and eld survive the day/night cycle?

I guess.
Maybe he even decided to overdo it to make you think it's bussing.

[Raging Rabbit]

Alright, I believe you've answered me to the best of your ability. Now I'm just waiting for eldarad to answer my questions (eld, a one post summary of why TDC's scum and you're town would also be nice if you feel like it), then I'll meta you properly. That should give me all the info I need to finish this.

[eldarad]

I've got all your questions written down, but it's Friday night so I'll answer later.

[Raging Rabbit]

TDC, I can't find any scum games of yours dated less than a year ago (the two latest appear to be newbie 591 and mini 584). Do any such games exist?

[TDC]

No (unless you want to count Really Bad Idea). My wiki is complete.

[Raging Rabbit]

So what's up with the answers, eld?

[TDC]

Well, the later he answers, the less time you have to take apart his answers before the deadline hits...

[eldarad]

eld -
1. Reread your case against iLord. In hindsight, how convincing do you think it is?

My case was pretty narrow, and made complete sense. That is:

• iLord's "reads" looked contrived, as the commentary accompanying them did not support the read in any way.
  
• that moving Electra up to #2 spot immediately before boosting her (in favour of Guardian, who iLord believed was town anyway) was done to give the appearance of sincerity to the boost that was unnecessary and looked fake, especially when choosing to boost Electra because it was possible to get a boost-majority was a perfectly valid reason that iLord tried to actively avoid.
  
• subsequent to this, the revelation that iLord's commentary was not linked the reads at all - essentially meaning that iLord posted a scumdar - upon which his votes and boost-votes were based - without any reasoning whatsoever.

The majority of the subsequent discussion centred on a very small, specific piece of the second point in that list. Whether you agree with with my reasoning on that point or not, the other two points were never really opposed by iLord.

2. What led you to think Incog and Guardian were scum together?

It was when I tried to get them to summarise their arguments. I did that as an attempt to get everyone on track - as we were fast becoming spectators in a debate that didn't appear to be reaching a conclusion.
The consequences of that summarising attempt led me to two thoughts:
1) that there was very little actual content in the argument, despite the length and quantity of posts
2) both Guardian and Incog resisted any attempt to have their argument summarised.
It suggested to me that they were attempting to create an aura of antagonism between themselves that was out of all proportion to the quality and quantity of the arguments they were having.

3. What sort of "accumulated towniness" made you boost Jahudo? Can you think of anything specific that made you think he was town?

I couldn't answer that question at the time, and I'm afraid I still can't answer it now.

eld, what do you make of all the mutual attacks/bussing that's been going on between TDC and GC? For exmaple, this post:

Xtox has had shitty quarrels with RR, myself and Eld. Like, very-obviously-not-the-same-scum-group conversations. And not the scum trying out a distancing strategy type either. Incog has basically said that he thinks the ground Xtox walks on becomes town just from osmosis. Not something a scum group readily does (plus there's that whole vig thing). If Xtox flips scum, his only partner would be TDC.

I don't know why you people keep forgetting about him. He's still in this game!

Lynch TDC. Vig RR/me/Eld/Xtox (preferably not Eld - or me, for that matter). We will find ourselves in either a win or another probable LYLO situation.

I'm not sure how much of the post you quoted is intended to convey bussing. GC rules out three players as possible scumbuddies with Xtoxm. Well fine, but Xtoxm isn't scum - and GC knew that. So it isn't saying very much at all about TDC's alignment.
In terms of the exhortation - "TDC is still in this game!" - it has the ring of truth, as TDC has been skating quietly through the game...until Today.
That doesn't mean that GC and TDC can't be scumbuddies. And the point I have been making about the Encryptor is that TDC could oppose the boost of GC (read: distancing) at no cost to the scumteam. TDC opposing the boost of GC Yesterday is totally consistent with a GC-TDC scumteam. It certainly doesn't make it

less

likely.

eld - Since I appeared much more likely to vote for you than for TDC yesterday, why do you think TDC-scum chose to start today expressing a lean on me?

Well hey, you're the one who dislikes WIFOM, remember?
I'd say TDC thought he'd have more chance lynching you. Also, since TDC has boosted me every Day since the game began, he may have felt he wouldn't be able to justify attacking me straight out of the blocks Today. That kinda restricts his choice.

Well, the later he answers, the less time you have to take apart his answers before the deadline hits...

See, this is the first time all game TDC has attacked me, and it's just a cheap shot.
That's why he was leaning towards you first thing Today.

~~~

"Hey, we could mass claim and then boost a vanilla who doesn't know about his boosts (*cough* like me *cough*) and see whether it does anything to prove her claim!"

And yet that's rather similar to my "leap of faith" idea ("I'm a vanilla, and whilst I think I will get something if boosted I don't know for sure. So Electra-scum claiming to be a vanilla with detail of what her boost will give requires a leap of faith")

I really can't do anything about the backwardness of the formulation than tell you that I tried not to put the "I'm a useless vanilla"-cap on my head.

And yet I was able express support for Electra without saying "I am a vanilla and therefore I believe her." So I don't think you can dismiss RR's point so easily.

[TDC]

See, this is the first time all game TDC has attacked me

Well, duh. I thought you were very likely town up until today and more likely than not town until you voted me.
I don't think the shot is cheap either, seeing how it miraculously made you actually post your reply five days.

I really can't do anything about the backwardness of the formulation than tell you that I tried not to put the "I'm a useless vanilla"-cap on my head.

And yet I was able express support for Electra without saying "I am a vanilla and therefore I believe her." So I don't think you can dismiss RR's point so easily.[/quote]
Oh, let's see.. how did you support Electra on D2?

We could boost someone 3 times.

Brilliant.

[TDC]

Meh, stupid quote tags.

[eldarad]

I can't really bring a case on eldarad, so it's all up to you, RR.

At this point, where RR is confirmed town, you still "can't really bring a case" on me.
Post 1533 really is the first time you have made any kind of attack on me for the whole game.

Oh, let's see.. how did you support Electra on D2?

So your position is that I wasn't supporting Electra on Day 2?

[TDC]

I can't really bring a case on eldarad, so it's all up to you, RR.

At this point, where RR is confirmed town, you still "can't really bring a case" on me.
Post 1533 really is the first time you have made any kind of attack on me for the whole game.

You're joy that I was unable to correctly read you for a big part of the game and that there is indeed not much I can pin down to you is becoming rather tedious.

Oh, let's see.. how did you support Electra on D2?

So your position is that I wasn't supporting Electra on Day 2?

No, my position is that your support of Electra regarding the information she claimed was based on an argument that wouldn't convince anyone ("hey, we can just boost someone three times"). I find my argument to be more convincing (a mass claim is far more practical than locking in a boost choice for three nights), even though it was harder to express without implicitly claiming.

[Raging Rabbit]

No use going into my reasoning at this point, really...

Vote TDC

.

*crosses fingers*

[Incognito]

You rock.

(Yes, this is my delayed "Bah" post.)

[TDC]

Meh.

That was one very, very annoying day.

[eldarad]

Good call
I'd be quite interested to hear your reasoning, even just a brief sentence or two.

Vote: eldarad

Sup?

My last two opening votes in games have landed on scum. Do you feel lucky?

Rawr.

[Patrick]

...

Raging Rabbit, eldarad and TDC. These are the three individuals who were to decide the fate of the village on this final day. After an unusually long and ponderous debate, eldarad and TDC square off, leaving Raging Rabbit with the choice. After going back and forth in his mind a few times, he locks onto TDC, and eldarad quickly helps him string him up before he changes his mind. To his immense relief, he's got the right man.

TDC - Mafia Rolecop - lynched day 4

eldarad - Villager - Survived
Raging Rabbit - Villager - Survived

Town wins! I'm in a rush, so roles, nightactions and comments will have to come later today.

[Xtoxm]

RR, you can't just blame the people you mislynch for mislynching them. You failed at scum hunting.

At least you realised on the last day, though, and made the right choice...

Town played horribly D2 and D3, it was really frustrating.

[Green Crayons]

Oh well. Good game.

[Raging Rabbit]

What a relief. Definitely the most unnerving endgame I've ever been a part of.

eldarad- on the one hand, there was TDC making some good calls and looking almost exactly like his townie self for the entire game (I think all 3 scum played really well), while some of your arguments I strongly disagreed with. On the other, everything that happened today pointed towards you being town and TDC scum (first and foremost, there's the choice to go after TDC rather than myself, which would be a huge and pretty unnecassary gambit for scum-you). Then on taking a closer look in my reread, some of TDC's actions started looking too calculated while you felt somtimes misguided but genuine town. The answers you gave me strenghtened that feeling. TDC softclaiming non-vanilla sealed the deal.

Xtoxm - of course I'm to blame as well. I'm fully aware that my strongest weakness in this game is telling the difference between bad play and scummy play. That doesn't make said bad play any less annoying, though.

Great game, Patrick, I had a blast. Thanks to elmo for running the day show as well.

[Green Crayons]

Oh, I'm all for revealing the scum QuickTopic. Any reservations, TDC/Jahundo?



Incog: Why were you convinced I was scum?

[Xtoxm]

I didn't play badly. Ice didn't play badly either. The forgetting he joined was an obvious slip up, though, which he could have done without.

I did not contradict my predecessor at all, it was you who played badly there.

[Incognito]

Incog: Why were you convinced I was scum?

Haha there were a bunch of reasons actually.

Your predecessors

- Skillit looked pretty bad early on, and I probably would have put a vote on him early on, but I got distracted by the springlullaby argument.
- Mana_Ku's summary was really weird too.

You specifically

- Your post against Huntress just seemed a bit over the top in the face of a mounting Jahudo-wagon. It just looked like you were trying your hardest to save the Godfather.
- When you said your role was a Psychic and then claimed that Skillit had asked Patrick for clarification as to what would happen if he got boosted twice, I pretty much knew you had to be lying. Patrick would have never clarified to me what would happen when I got boosted once or twice so it wouldn't make sense for him to start doing double standards as a mod [by clarifying for Skillit but not clarifying for me].
- Then there were your double standards also. I still hold to the belief that if you were town, you technically should have found eldarad scummier than TDC for suggesting that we boost a Vanilla closer to end-game if you truly felt like TDC was scummy for not deflecting away an early wagon on him, a claimed Vanilla. I just thought your insistence that eldarad was town town town seemed weird because of that.
- Oh and there was this more minor thing too:

I used that fake softclaim about a post restriction as an excuse for not posting. That doesn't make me scum.

How am I supposed to not vote you after you yourself admitted to lying to the town about your lurking?

It didn't look like you really thought he was scum -- it just kinda looked like you knew he was town, and you were lynching him over policy reasons.

I really thought I did a decent job of trying to convince people that Xtoxm was town and that you were mafia scum, so I was really disappointed when he got lynched and you remained alive.


-- Incidentally, one thing I never revealed to the town was that after my first boost, I became a

full

vig instead of just gaining an additional shot. I kept that to myself because I didn't want the scum in on that information. During my second boost, I actually gained NK immunity if I chose not to shoot during the night. SO if we had lynched GC during Day 3 and left Xtoxm alone, I could have no killed during Night 3, hopefully been the NK target and used my NK immunity, and then try and convince the town that I wasn't an SK and that we should lynch one of {eldarad, TDC} and vig the other during the next night for a guaranteed win. I was pretty certain that both Xtoxm and RR were town, so I thought the plan would have been solid if people didn't think I was an SK

(I think people would have just lynched me though lol).

Anyway, good game all. Well done, eldarad and RR at end-game!