Mini 774: Case Closed Mafia (One Truth Prevails!)

[Korlash]

@korlash: I don't like your attitude regarding the tactics issue. You defended millar for

saying battou applied tactics but pretty much said that anything applied as a tactic. So there

is no reason for millar to vote battou.

I said technically anything can be considered a tactic, because they are. But even then, doesn't that mean that Bat did in fact use tactics, and thus Millar did vote him for real reasons. I've seen votes made on way worse then that.

Also. I don't like the interpretations of

170 expresses a lot of the motives why I'm not liking the Fire waggon. He makes sense IMO.

Was this directed at me? I can't tell... The "also" kinda makes it seemt hat way yet I would have no idea what you are talking about if it is...

mmm... Fishing for a role? What do you guess his role is?

Dude, it's not fishing when someone is at L-2. If anything I'll argue I was trying to save his life. Maybe if you try to keep the BS accusations to a minimum your posts wouldn't be so long.

And what type of question is "What do you guess his role is?" I'm going to guess he's a character from Cased Closed. Wow I'm right! I must be a genius!

@korlash: When you asked for flavour in the claim... what do you mean? You now he can't quote the mod right?.

I'm sorry, have you not heard? It's this new invention called paraphrasing. You pull key words and prashes from your flavor and then fill in the rest with your own stuff. As far as what I meant, I mean any themed flavor put in his role PM that coud help confirm it as a real role. I hardly asked him to "quote" anything.

Am I wrong or he isn't allowed to quote or fake quote the role pm?

No, he isn't allowed to 'quote' anything from the mod, fake or real. But saying "my flavor is yadda yadda" isn't quoting anything. And as long as he changes a word here or there to prevent posting it word for word, it should be ok. Although this is probabbly best answered by the MOD.

While I don't like mislynching I think that battou's point of better lynching a vanilla than another player and knowing that Fire won't be killed tonight is not a good idea.

This is a very confusing statement just because of the wording. But overlooking that as it doesn't matter, yes, that is a dumb point.

[millar13]

@ Everybody

Something I don't quite understand, so if you can clear up would be fine.

I see Firestarter as scummy. I have my suspicions
He mirror/OMGUS.
We have this heated one-one-on.

However, if Firestarter is lynched people are saying that I flip scum.
Therefore, people might wonder if the table was switched and I was lynched and came up town Firestarter would deffo come up scum...WRONG!

There is a chance, and I think it is growing in likelihood that Firestarter and myself could both me townies, and that a wagon is rolling. Scum might actually be lurking or watching as the town implodes.

Firestarter (Town) = Millar (Scum) is actually wrong?

Has anyone considered that possibly that is what the scum want you too think

[Korlash]

Firestarter (Town) = Millar (Scum) is actually wrong?

I have not seen any evidence that suggests if Fire is town you are scum.

Who are these people that are saying this?

[alexhans]

@SC:

The standout here is that two people ≠ everybody.

Right, but you said "That's a

very good case

against alexhans there". You think it's a case? Isn't it just a point where I was wrong? Do you think a very good case merits a lynch? You called millar's case on Fire a good case but this is a "Very good case"?

2) So would you be ok with a millar lynch right now instead of Fire?

3) He does want to play. He's been posting a lot. He just had everyone (NOT really everyone, A great number of people) voting against him and dismissing his answers. I think it can be pretty demoralizing. You suggest a town player to self-hammer? That is anti-town! Only scum self-hammer when they don't want to disclose any more information.... Plus there will be one less person in his lynch waggon that has to explain their motives.

4) Let me handle millar. He at least seems, although some times wrong, to have good intentions.

5) Maybe he feels he CANT continue. But it's better to ask him. All I know is that his defenses have gone unheard. Sow the seeds of discord? What do you mean by that? Does it preocupie you he signaled you as a possible millar scumbuddy? (I don't think this, mind you)

And I'm gonna tell everyone something else before SC starts attacking me further.. Pacman wasn't doubted at all up till now. Why would I put all this effort and try to defend things that Fire said and boost discussion against a lynch if I was scum? It would be really much easier to just add some little things and go along with the flow of the game. I might be a bit messy. But I'm trying to help the town.

------------------

@korlasch:

How is the time wasted?

Because he asked a really dumb question and then responded with a vague inane answer when i questioned him about it. Neither one of them shows me he plans on using the extra time in a useful manner.

Ok. But, as Battou suggested earlier (though now he has already voted) we could just assume that Fire is gonna flip town and keep talking until the end of day. Then when he flips, we will have talked a lot more than up till now.

And we really need to get replacements before day 2 starts. Or it will be really hard to play.

Dude, it's not fishing when someone is at L-2. If anything I'll argue I was trying to save his life. Maybe if you try to keep the BS accusations to a minimum your posts wouldn't be so long.

MY first long post were my notes, questions are not necesarilly accusations. I posted them like that because I was afraid that someone might hammer after Battou's L-1.

I'm sorry, have you not heard? It's this new invention called paraphrasing. You pull key words and prashes from your flavor and then fill in the rest with your own stuff. As far as what I meant, I mean any themed flavor put in his role PM that coud help confirm it as a real role. I hardly asked him to "quote" anything.

I know what paraphrasing is. You don't need to mock me.
Look. I'm ok if you just give me the answers. Why do you act like that when answering? I want to know things. It doesn't necesarilly mean I think you're scum. I just think this game has been excessively focused on only 2 people.

This is a very confusing statement just because of the wording. But overlooking that as it doesn't matter, yes, that is a dumb point.

Rephrasing:
- I don't like mislynching.
- Battou said that if we don't lynch a claimed vanilla that is seen as scummy by a big amount of people scum will go for another player (hoping to hit a PR) and try to get him lynched eventually.
- I somewhat agree with it but I have mixed feelings.

------------

There is a chance, and I think it is growing in likelihood that Firestarter and myself could both me townies, and that a wagon is rolling. Scum might actually be lurking or watching as the town implodes.

This is what I've been fearing. This is why I wanted discussion and not a hammer.

----------------

oh... SC... the game you mentioned with so many replacements... how did it go?

[StrangerCoug]

@SC:

The standout here is that two people ≠ everybody.

Right, but you said "That's a

very good case

against alexhans there". You think it's a case?

Obviously.

Isn't it just a point where I was wrong?

It very well could be, but again, you shouldn't be blowing things out of proportion.

Do you think a very good case merits a lynch?

Yes.

You called millar's case on Fire a good case but this is a "Very good case"?

It's subjective, really. I think millar13's remark is pretty damning toward you. Firestarter's case pretty much built up until it got to a point of no return.

2) So would you be ok with a millar lynch right now instead of Fire?

I'm actually starting to suspect you more than millar13, but I can still get behind lynching him at this point.

3) He does want to play. He's been posting a lot. He just had everyone (NOT really everyone, A great number of people) voting against him and dismissing his answers. I think it can be pretty demoralizing. You suggest a town player to self-hammer? That is anti-town! Only scum self-hammer when they don't want to disclose any more information.... Plus there will be one less person in his lynch waggon that has to explain their motives.

I do realize the risk of telling someone potentially town to self-hammer, but he's useless at this point and I've already settled my mind about him.

4) Let me handle millar. He at least seems, although some times wrong, to have good intentions.

millar13 can handle himself.

Sow the seeds of discord? What do you mean by that?

You sow the seeds of discord by creating internal conflict within your enemy. He's basically said "go after these people when I'm dead and buried". If he's scum and the people he says to attack end up flipping town, then he will be guilty of lining up lynches, something I've accused him of once before.

Does it preocupie you he signaled you as a possible millar scumbuddy? (I don't think this, mind you)

Not a lot.

Why would I put all this effort and try to defend things that Fire said and boost discussion against a lynch if I was scum?

This is the second time you've committed WIFOM, and that along with you constantly saying one thing when the reality is another is really getting on my nerves here.

Unvote

and demote to

Major FoS: Firestarter

(he deserves a chance if he really does want to keep playing)

Vote: alexhans

oh... SC... the game you mentioned with so many replacements... how did it go?

The Mafia won prisoner's dilemma.

[Korlash]

Ok. But, as Battou suggested earlier (though now he has already voted) we could just assume that Fire is gonna flip town and keep talking until the end of day. Then when he flips, we will have talked a lot more than up till now.

... What good is discussion based off an assumption? What if that assumption is incorrect? And of course if we all start assuming he flips town, we lose all the good scum tells of scum that knew he would have flipped town anyway, thus robbing town of one chance to actually find scum.

And we really need to get replacements before day 2 starts. Or it will be really hard to play.

I'm kinda at a loss for what you are actually arguing here. Are you saying we need to find them or we need to get them into the game? Becuase actually finding replacements will be easier during the night, however to actually get them into the game by letting them read and post should be done before we end the day. it's one of those pro/con scale things. If we only needed one replacement, I would probably suggest waiting to let them catch up, but as we are looking for 3 I don't think it's going to realy matter if we go to night now or wait the 5 weeks it will take to get them up to speed.

I know what paraphrasing is. You don't need to mock me.
Look. I'm ok if you just give me the answers. Why do you act like that when answering? I want to know things. It doesn't necesarilly mean I think you're scum. I just think this game has been excessively focused on only 2 people.

I need to mock everyone! *shakes fist*
I act like that when answering because you asked me a stupid question. I could have given you a straight answer but wheres the fun in that?
And did I ever say you called me scum? sounds like someone has a guilty Conscience...

This is what I've been fearing. This is why I wanted discussion and not a hammer.

well we kinda need a hammer regardless. The wagon has come to far to be stopped by "This might be a town/town argument!" We still need Fire to flip, and we can go from that tomorrow.

[Korlash]

EBWOP: "... What good is discussion based off an assumption like that?" There are certain assumptions in certain situations that I feel would could be argued as good assumptions to promote discussion. I'm only really interested in how this one particular assumption of what Fire will flip would help promote good discussion.

[alexhans]

Wow. I'm actually glad how you rushed to vote me. Self-defense? Afraid? It's really interesting. And finally the game will move from just Fire/millar.

It very well could be, but again, you shouldn't be blowing things out of proportion.

I'm blowing things out of proportion but you seconded a point made by millar and already think I'm scummy enough to vote? You say a very good case merits a lynch and the case against is a very good case? (Great! Lynch the replacement who is wary of you)

millar13 can handle himself.

*sigh* I mean I can handle MY communication with millar. I don't control him.

You sow the seeds of discord by creating internal conflict within your enemy. He's basically said "go after these people when I'm dead and buried". If he's scum and the people he says to attack end up flipping town, then he will be guilty of lining up lynches, something I've accused him of once before.

He can do it but we won't follow just because he said so.

This is the second time you've committed WIFOM, and that along with you constantly saying one thing when the reality is another is really getting on my nerves here.

Yeah... WIFOM... I don't say it should prove my innocence... I'm telling everyone to think about it. But you seem trying to attack me for little things.

The Mafia won prisoner's dilemma.

Then I'm right. Rushing to lynch and too many replacements can crap a game all over.

Finally. Know that this is in-game. I think you're scummy. I appreciate you all the same OUTSIDE this game
-----
@korlasch:
-Discussion, IMO, is always good. Scum usually messes up along the way. Regardless of the attitudes.
-Maybe it will be fine to get replacements at night. I don't know... It will definetly be a long night.

And did I ever say you called me scum? sounds like someone has a guilty Conscience...

And how am I supposed to answer that? It's lame. Some people feel that when you question them you're making a case because you think they're guilty.

[Korlash]

@korlasch:
-Discussion, IMO, is always good. Scum usually messes up along the way. Regardless of the attitudes.
-Maybe it will be fine to get replacements at night. I don't know... It will definetly be a long night.

Discussion is not always good. For one, any discussion bassed off an assumption (especially a false assumption) is probably bad. And there is such a thing as too much talk. tl;drs, WoWs, forcing a day to last 2 additional weeks by saying we should keep discussion going, yet not actually knowing waht to discuss and end up just posting crap that makes finding replacements THAT MUCH FREAKING HARDER!... sorry got carried away there..

Anyways, point is discussion is not universally "always good" although it is most of the time.

I highly doubt the night will last too much longer just because we need replacements, the only thing that would cause it to last linger would be if the Mod couldn't find anyone to replace, but as this is a theme game, a game based off an anime, and being in night with less then 20 pages, I don't think it will be too hard to find replacements.

Also are you drunk when you post my name because you seem to be slurring it at the end...

And how am I supposed to answer that? It's lame. Some people feel that when you question them you're making a case because you think they're guilty.

The answer would be, "No Korlasch, you said that. I was simply trying to illistrate I was not making a case against you merely making observations and/or statements and/or [insert your own xcuse here]." Of course you can rephrase it however you want, it's just an example.

[Korlash]

*grumbles*

EBWOP:

"especially a false assumption" should read "especially if that assumption turns out to be false" in my mind they meant the same thing but reading it it might lead people to the wrong conclusions.

[StrangerCoug]

millar13 can handle himself.

*sigh* I mean I can handle MY communication with millar. I don't control him.

Very well then.

You sow the seeds of discord by creating internal conflict within your enemy. He's basically said "go after these people when I'm dead and buried". If he's scum and the people he says to attack end up flipping town, then he will be guilty of lining up lynches, something I've accused him of once before.

He can do it but we won't follow just because he said so.

We'd better not.

This is the second time you've committed WIFOM, and that along with you constantly saying one thing when the reality is another is really getting on my nerves here.

Yeah... WIFOM... I don't say it should prove my innocence... I'm telling everyone to think about it. But you seem trying to attack me for little things.

You shouldn't be using WIFOM to prove your innocence anyway, but that's because WIFOM is an effed up mind game. WIFOM, therefore, should rarely be used by the town as any form of strategy let alone a defense. (I was about ready to say never, but then doc protections came to mind.)

The Mafia won prisoner's dilemma.

Then I'm right. Rushing to lynch and too many replacements can crap a game all over.

There actually was a rush to lynch Day 1 in that game—from L-3 to swinging in the noose in less than 24 hours. If you care to look, it's here.

[alexhans]

mmm... You may have a point regarding the replacement's willingness based on the amount of pages...

But I think I want to discuss at least a bit further what I've been writing... I want answers from the active players that I talked to.
And opinions on SC's case on me. My doubts regarding SC. etc.

oh... sorry I edit with notepad and didn't remember your name exactly... You mind if I call you Kor?

The answer would be, "No Korlasch, you said that

You realize you messed your name up?

[Korlash]

You realize you messed your name up?

Well it was a hypothetical based on how you would have spelled it

[Sajin]

Heir to Blackblade! Its very Grandeur like and Legendary imo.

[Battousai]

Heir to Blackblade! Its very Grandeur like and Legendary imo.

WTF are you smoking?

[Firestarter]

I will comment on the game progression tomorrow evening all.
Right now, time does not allow me to.

[Korlash]

Heir to Blackblade! Its very Grandeur like and Legendary imo.

You must be thinking of my Father Mr. Korlash. I'm actually 12th in line for Blackblade and haven't quite mastered Grandeur yet.. ;-; But when I do I'll be putting two islands into play! yeah... Take that...

[millar13]

I will comment on the game progression tomorrow evening all.
Right now, time does not allow me to.

Firestarter can you let me else other than me who you think is scum. The introduciton of alexshans actually has me thinking a lot more that we might both be on the same team, just both sending out mixed messages

[Isacc]

I haven't had enough time to get to this game yet and do a full reread. Sorry. I am trying to get to it, but it'll have to wait still.

[Firestarter]

Thoughts since my 2nd to last post...

Lindisfarne...

post 49 made me laugh. Firestarter is going on about how pressure on someone is good, and is a good tactic....and he then tells millar to calm down and unvotes him? Wow, way to nix your own logic there.

How is it nixing my own logic?
My understanding, at post 49, was that this was the end of the RVS for me.
M13 stated I was likely scum and SC was likely Town. Too early to tell if M13 is town, for me.

Ok, fire and stranger riding millar was working. he was breaking, but you guys took it a bit far. You were nitpicking over really inane things, like his wording.

You should have picked at his logic instead

, or forced more out of him. And that vote upgrade was just funky, fire. understandable from the perspective of putting pressure on him, but I hope you start picking more at his logic and less at the way he words his posts.

LF, can you point to the part in M13's logic, I or SC should have attacked, it seems you seen something?

A vote is sacred.
People who vote, unvote, vote and unvote can actually be most unhelpful.

I disagree. A vote is not sacred. Expect to see me put votes around often. Its all a part of the pressure game. I actually find it slightly scummy when people rarely vote at all, especially in the face of good evidence (granted, that is subjective). I find it akin to lurking, its like sitting on the sidelines.

This I agreed with and still do. Leaving a trail of thinking through votes is good for town to look back on.

We just found millar13's scumbuddy...

Wow. Instead of trying to properly defend yourself and refute his logic, you throw that out? Aww c'mon. (strike against fire

I admit this looks bad on my part, but Isaac just turns up after Ive tried to defend myself for so long, and imo, without as much as reading anything, he stated what others wrote and instantly placed his vote on me. The post he made this in was his 3rd of the game, the other 2 coming in the RVS. I got highly pissed off that if Isaac is town, he should have thought things over more before jumping on a BW. He did not come across as someone who thought about that instant vote, imo.

A lot of back and forth in this game, and I'm actually a bit torn. My PRIMARY concern right now is not firestarter. I'm actually more concerned about scum hiding in the shadows. There's so much spotlight on fire and millar this whole game, it would be easy for scum to just be quiet and let the day pan out.

Right now, this is exactly what I think is happening, hence my thinking that M13 may be town, and him & I are just banging our heads against a brick wall against each other.

And my guess is that unless someone comes along with the same Townie traits shown by Lindisfarne, then Ill be lynched.

Because I don't think fire is scum, he thinks im town. now THAT raises a few eyebrows in my book. It just smells scummy to me.

For alot of pages previous to you replacing in LF, Ive had to defend myself against a barrage, of what I consider to be crap, of attacks.
You came into the game, and took a good look back through the game and gave an assesment I'd attribute to townies. I didn't state you were townie or likely townie to me, just that your first real post was pro-town.

Play mafia more, you'll realize that all interpretations of actions in this game lead to WIFOM one way or another.
It's bad form to flat out say "that's WIFOM" as a defense, or as an attack on something. Guess what, in some roundabout way, everything can be looked at as WIFOM, every action in some respect.

This I agree with. Simply posting "Its WIFOM" is just not enough..

I would like you to pick a person who is most scummy to you right now, and explain WHY they are scummy.

This I will get back to later...

_____________________________

Sajin...

Your whole argument on policy lynches I completely disagree with. We can lynch off townies until lynch or lose (granted we do not know what day that is, but for game balance reasons I will assume we have 1 or 2 MLes to use).

Also, lynching off firestarter here will allow his flip to tell a lot. In fact I think its scummy wanting to keep him alive at this point.

This is something Ive seen from a few posters, and tbh, Ive not seen any valid reasons why this is good if I flip town. The fact is, that if you were basing this on me flipping town, Town will be one man down. Lynching someone one believes is town, as is the basis of this theory, is plain stupid.

3: His flip gives us more information regardless of what direction the flip is. Obviously it would help more if he is indeed scum.

Again...
finally...

2: The information gained would be the insight into his posts. Because he posted a lot I referred to a lot of information. Knowing the alignment behind 75 posts or whatever he is up to now in the thread adds up to a lot of stuff that can be dug through.

You can have insight into anyones posts while there alive also, it just takes someone to go back and analyse thoroughly.
This is more directed at Isaac, but nonetheless...

Also, lynching off firestarter here will allow his flip to tell a lot. In fact I think its scummy wanting to keep him alive at this point.

What the hell will his flip tell? Unless you're banking that whole comment on him being guaranteed scum, and then you can point a finger at whoever defended him (note: me). That tells you possible info on ONE person, if you kill him and he's scum. That is not telling a lot Sajin. Honestly, enlighten me, how will it tell a lot?

My thoughts exactly...

_____________________________

Korlash...

If we have already decided on a lynch posting actual suspicion lists could only help the mafia decide on who to kill and how to start the day off tomorrow. I'd rather go in blind tomorrow then give the mafia more of a chance to set things up.

The only real plus side is to get the suspicions of the person(s) who is(are) Nightkilled. However, seeing as how giving such a list will probably help, if not lead, to who is nightkilled, it seems pointless becuase him dying has the possibility of being manufactured precisesly on that list.

Why is posting a list helping mafia? WIFOM.
RE: the bolded part.. by your theory after a NK, why are you objecting to such lists if they "become obselete" in the next day?
Lists of value come from mis-lynched townies and NK'd townies moreso. They are confirmed tonwies.

Did you just ask why someone should bring up something they have a problem with?...

This is stretching, you go on to vote me after I told you so much.

Vote: Firestarter

He's fine with being lynched and is asking for more time to waste. Add to that his claim isn't exactly foolproof and how much his flip will give us kinda makes my vote a solid...

Skimming through the thread since I was last active, I would say that the time spent has been spent well. Alot more discussion has gone on, and what will my flip give you? Again!

How is the time wasted?

Because he asked a really dumb question and then responded with a vague inane answer when i questioned him about it. Neither one of them shows me he plans on using the extra time in a useful manner.

Bollox.... Dumb, inane, vague... That explains quite alot of players in this game, ya know...
That was a loaded question. You know it. My "Vague, Inane" answer as you put it, was enough for such a question.

mmm... Fishing for a role? What do you guess his role is?

Dude, it's not fishing when someone is at L-2. If anything I'll argue I was trying to save his life. Maybe if you try to keep the BS accusations to a minimum your posts wouldn't be so long

I understood completely why I was asked to roleclaim back then.
However, it has been completely dismissed by some trying to 2nd guess the mod.

Am I wrong or he isn't allowed to quote or fake quote the role pm?

No, he isn't allowed to 'quote' anything from the mod, fake or real. But saying "my flavor is yadda yadda" isn't quoting anything. And as long as he changes a word here or there to prevent posting it word for word, it should be ok. Although this is probabbly best answered by the MOD.

I did not want to get too close to my PM, because of Mod repercussions.
Ive explained why I posted what I posted, but again, some see it as scummy, by saying its... scummy.
In one hand, there are people calling me idiotic and dumb, also saying I need to go to kindergarden, and in the next piece, they're claiming Im some kind of smart scum for concocting a plan to roleclaim????
Which is it guys?

Ok. But, as Battou suggested earlier (though now he has already voted) we could just assume that Fire is gonna flip town and keep talking until the end of day. Then when he flips, we will have talked a lot more than up till now.

... What good is discussion based off an assumption? What if that assumption is incorrect? And of course if we all start assuming he flips town, we lose all the good scum tells of scum that knew he would have flipped town anyway, thus robbing town of one chance to actually find scum.

Is this directed at Bat or Alex? It was a reply to one of Alexhans posts.

The wagon has come to far to be stopped by "This might be a town/town argument!"

We still need Fire to flip, and we can go from that tomorrow.

Again, why the rush?
Again, why do you "need the flip"?
I re-iterate that discussion has moved along quite nicely in this D1 since I last posted. Im pretty certain that what has been talked about in that time will have bearing in later game, as will what happened previous to it.
Dismissing it out of hand is just... wrong.

Discussion is not always good. For one, any discussion bassed off an assumption (especially a false assumption) is probably bad.

I can tell you know that discussion based on my alignment is bad for town, by your theory of course. But lets not discuss that...
And discussion IS good, always, everytime....
In this game, the spotlight was only on M13 & I... how can discusiion after this be a bad thing?

_____________________________

Isaac...

@SC: Me for ad hominem? Quotes please? I'm pretty sure I was the one yelling at Firestarter for using ad hominem >.<

Please point this out.

Alexhans 345 is the best post of the game, he clearly read everything and summed it up better than I did possibly.
For those not wanting to be pro-town, namely you Isaac, and actually read the cases on me/M13, this is the short, better put version.
Your content so far has been nothing short of lurker-ish...
Im very much wanting to hear your thoughts after your re-read.

_____________________________

Battousai

I think we have waited long enough for the inactives to post/be replaced. The game is starting to die down which is worse.

Vote: Firestarter

At this point, the replacements requested that they be given time to post their thoughts, yet you place me at L-1.
Why... Afraid this lynch will fall through?
Or that, if something better came up, like turning focus onto someone who actually is scum being lynched would dent a scum-tastic opening to the game?
Again, the day is but young, and the willingness for certain players to end this game as quickly as possible, especially with insight from replacements not fully aired, is very anti-town imo.

THIS...

I think we have waited long enough for the inactives to post/be replaced. The game is starting to die down which is worse.

Vote: Firestarter

Wow... Usually what scum says when they don't know how to push a quicklynch when not every player is playing. I haven't posted my notes in 24 hs and you are already calling for a hammer? Aren't you a little bit interested in what I might have to say?

5 days is a long time to wait for a lynch. People get bored, interests go down, the game becomes less fun.

Town should do nothing else? How about analysing the replacements posts, or at least trying to gather more info?

_____________________________

Strangercoug...

I believe that makes it L-1. Firestarter, if you really want to play, then it's high time you did some scumhunting. Otherwise, self-hammer right now. I'm pretty sure you're scum, but I haven't forgotten millar13, and alexhans is somebody that I'm looking at too.

Your vote on me kinda confirms your thoughts SC.
From the exchange with M13 & I, you've flipped onto whichever was doing worst, while keeping your "options to lynch the other" open by keeping your eyes on M13.
I dont see why your watching Alexhans at this stage, is it because he's been defending me?
Could it be that he is scum, and by defending me, after my flip, he'll look pro-town?
At least post the suspicion you talk of.

Ok, millar13, you have 2 hours to post your case on me, Ill be gone for this time.

I don't think two hours is a fair time limit. Upgrade to an

HoS: Firestarter

.

WHY???? WHY DO YOU ACCUSE FIRE?
the only "case" you had on him was his not voting Millar...

FoS:StrangerCoug

Uh, hello?

Firestarter's mouth was not where his money was

. Don't you dare generalize my cases!

What do you mean my mouth wasn't where my money was SC?
I didn't make a pathetic attempt at threatening M13 or anything like that.
What did you mean?

millar13 is guilty of making slips early in the game and tried to defend them by saying his fingers were broken, which I don't buy.

Firestarter is guilty of several misrepresentations. For example, somehow in #159 he thinks that millar13 will be cleared in my mind if he gets lynched and flips town, which isn't true. (It will obviously be wrong that they were bussing, but the rest of my case on millar13 will remain valid.)

Huh????
I asked

YOU

about this. I did not state one way or the other what my thoughts would be on what you were thinking of SC. You still have not given your answer to this BTW.
This is my 159... Its pretty clear you've misinterpretd what I said...

@ Strangercoug

Largely millar13's case. Yes, I just accused him of bussing you (and vice versa ), but as I said, the case is good. I'm looking at #126 minus the first paragraph. Most of what concerns me about millar13 is the early part of this game. You, on the other hand, have been responding very poorly to pressure lately.

When I flip town, does your "Idea" of millar & me bussing each other excuse him from a lynching?

I'm sorry. Is this supposed to be the Spanish Inquisition?

I may not have put any suspicions about Firestarter in the form of a question lately, but what I don't like about him after I stopped asking questions is clear—does he really want to play or not? If he doesn't want to play, then I'm fine with him lynched; in fact, I told him to self-hammer if that's the case. If he DOES want to play, though, then he needs to wake up and do some decent scumhunting, not just sling mud every which way he pleases.

RE: the bolded part... LOL, just LOL. Try being me about 10 pages ago...
Its hardly the Spanish inquisition now, is it?
You think Im scum because Im resigned to being lynched?
You stopped asking questions because it looked very clearly that I would be lynched before the replacements came into the game. And Yes, I want to remain in the game. I may have been resigned to being lynched, but at no point did I ever want to leave the game. You can now drop that line of thinking.

@SC: I still don't follow your logic of bussing... You said it more than once throughout the game... Why not just say that one being scum doesn't rule the other out?

I thought I did so by denying that Firestarter flipping town would clear millar13 in my mind.

I may have missed this, but where did you deny this exactly?

I said I was confused about whether he wanted to or not, not that he necessarily didn't want to. His not caring about getting lynched sends a signal that he doesn't want to continue; that he's still pushing anybody sends a signal that he does want to continue. Which is it? All I'm getting from him anymore is that he's trying to sow the seeds of discord.

After I felt resigned to being lynched earlier, I clearly made it known that I wanted Town to keep this day going till the deadline was reached. I wanted the day to reach the deadline, 2 weeks from that point.
This is a clear indication of my want to stay in the game. Again, you can drop that line of thinking, the posts Ive made are there, you are simply ignoring them or you simply "missed" them. But I did not, once, say I wanted out of this game.

You called millar's case on Fire a good case but this is a "Very good case"?

It's subjective, really. I think millar13's remark is pretty damning toward you.

Isn't the following quote by M13 more or less the same?

However, if Firestarter is lynched

people

are saying that I flip scum.

To my knowledge only you, SC said this. Which makes M13 as wrong as alexhans.
Its not a case, its a poor attempt at reflecting questions.

Why would I put all this effort and try to defend things that Fire said and boost discussion against a lynch if I was scum?

This is the second time you've committed WIFOM, and that along with you

constantly saying one thing when the reality is another

is really getting on my nerves here.

What reality??? . Please explain the bolded.

You shouldn't be using WIFOM to prove your innocence anyway, but that's because WIFOM is an effed up mind game.

WIFOM, therefore, should rarely be used by the town as any form of strategy let alone a defense.

(I was about ready to say never, but then doc protections came to mind.

WIFOM, Im almost sure about (I would need to clarify this), has possibly been mentioned the most by you, SC.

2) So would you be ok with a millar lynch right now instead of Fire?

I'm actually starting to suspect you more than millar13, but I can still get behind lynching him at this point.

You've stated numerous times that M13 was "as" scummy as me...
And now your back to more unreasoned accusations, something which I recall vividly happening to me. Of course, your not the only one guilty of this in this game. Its becoming a trend with you, and I see it as some sort of defensive mechanism in truth. If someone gets to close to you, you try to fob them off by making swinging accusations and the likes. You seemed pre-occupied at one point in the case I made on M13, with yourself, rather than addressing the case I posted. You then go on to ask why I linked you to Isaac, which in truth, I did not do. I stated that you or Isaac could have been a scumbuddy with M13. This is taken directly from my case on M13, which you can locate easily by looking at my posts in isolation.

There are also interactions Im not happy with between M13 and Issac and SC.

You follow this up by asking me about the "connection" between you & isaac, again showing too much defensiveness for my liking. Instead of loking into what I posted, your only thoughts were on yourself.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Strangercoug.

You have basically watched where the votes were going, who was losing, and hedged your bets by declaring both of us were scum. Not only that, but to maintain those thoughts, you claimed we were "bussing" each other.
Thats all angles covered, without really doing too much town-work. Then, when the replacements came in, you instantly FoS'd one of them for questioning you like it was "The Spanish Inquisition"... Seriously!

_____________________________

Alexhans...

Why does everybody say Fire insulted or was rude when millar wrote earlier:

In this game you have to be a little over the top...you need to blow the small clues out of proportion otherwise really you need to leave mafiascum and go back to playing cluedo with your kid sister.

Ok. Millar. It was all well until you made this comment. Just because you think you know doesn't necesarilly mean you're right. Say what you want but with respect to others please. I think personal attacks don't contribute at all to the game.

This is something everyone either didn't take up on, or ignored.

Let's get this going. Gonna try out a new playstyle here, so be prepared lol =P

Why should he feel that it was necessary to explain he would be changing his playstyle?

Good point.

Lets not check my meta, coz Im gonna play differently...

From what I see at this point, Firestarter and millar13 might as well be bussing each other

Bussing each other day 1???? Why do you see the need to do that?

This is you again trying to make both suspicious as if you liked to see one lynched today and the other tomorrow.

RE: the bolded part. My thoughts exactly.

_____________________________

Millar13...

What makes you assume that if Fire comes up town, that I am necessarily proven scum.

If he somehow flips town, it is down to his scumlike play rather than being my fault that I noticed he was scum.

Strangecoug is the only person with logic, as in many ways his idea of me and Firestarting bussing is the only point that actually sounds like it has any solid meaning to it.

It doesn't have to neccersary be right, to have strength to it.

RE: the 1st bolded part...
My scummy play? I think its noticeable that when SC attacked you first, you went after him, after that I attacked you, and its been head to head since.
You tunnelvisioned, like I did you. And since no-one else wanted to contribute, we were in the spotlight.
Re: the 2nd bolded part...
WTF!!! What do you mean by

"It doesn't necessarily have to be right, to have strength to it"

?
I dont want your thinking behind it, nor do I want your impressions of how scummy I am for asking it.
I simply want to know what you meant by it, give me an example of this.

There is a chance, and I think it is growing in likelihood that Firestarter and myself could both me townies, and that a wagon is rolling. Scum might actually be lurking or watching as the town implodes.

If this is "growing in likelihood M13, then why are you still voting me and not hunting scum?
I mean, how much more growing would it need before you consider doing any of the above?

In any case, I dont think me voting you is right as you remind me of the pig-headedness Ive shown in this game.
Ill admit Im guilty of tunnelvisioning you, while ignoring what others were doing... and not doing.

Firestarter can you let me else other than me who you think is scum. The introduciton of alexshans actually has me thinking a lot more that we might both be on the same team, just both sending out mixed messages

Gladly...
If Ive not made myself clear above, Strangercoug.

And for MOD, Ill re-post this at the bottom of this post.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Strangercoug

[Sajin]

@firestarter my section: I can have beliefs and theories behind someones alignment. I can read into things. They are not perfect. The only way anyone gains actual information is when someone dies. I have been fooled enough by fake tells to know this. Other points I have already responded too.

Will read rest of it later and respond to other sections.

[Firestarter]

I have been fooled enough by fake tells to know this.

Please elaborate on this point.

[StrangerCoug]

Strangercoug...

I believe that makes it L-1. Firestarter, if you really want to play, then it's high time you did some scumhunting. Otherwise, self-hammer right now. I'm pretty sure you're scum, but I haven't forgotten millar13, and alexhans is somebody that I'm looking at too.

Your vote on me kinda confirms your thoughts SC.
From the exchange with M13 & I, you've flipped onto whichever was doing worst, while keeping your "options to lynch the other" open by keeping your eyes on M13.

Am I forbidden to have more than one suspect? Is my vote set in stone? Unless the answer to both of these questions is "yes", then I fail to understand what's wrong with what I'm doing.

I dont see why your watching Alexhans at this stage, is it because he's been defending me?

One of us is apparently blind, because my case on him is not defending you and I can't find where he's doing so.

At least post the suspicion you talk of.

I did already!

Ok, millar13, you have 2 hours to post your case on me, Ill be gone for this time.

I don't think two hours is a fair time limit. Upgrade to an

HoS: Firestarter

.

WHY???? WHY DO YOU ACCUSE FIRE?
the only "case" you had on him was his not voting Millar...

FoS:StrangerCoug

Uh, hello?

Firestarter's mouth was not where his money was

. Don't you dare generalize my cases!

What do you mean my mouth wasn't where my money was SC?
I didn't make a pathetic attempt at threatening M13 or anything like that.
What did you mean?

You were making a sufficiently big case by my judgment call to be voting millar13, yet you weren't.

millar13 is guilty of making slips early in the game and tried to defend them by saying his fingers were broken, which I don't buy.

Firestarter is guilty of several misrepresentations. For example, somehow in #159 he thinks that millar13 will be cleared in my mind if he gets lynched and flips town, which isn't true. (It will obviously be wrong that they were bussing, but the rest of my case on millar13 will remain valid.)

Huh????
I asked

YOU

about this. I did not state one way or the other what my thoughts would be on what you were thinking of SC. You still have not given your answer to this BTW.
This is my 159... Its pretty clear you've misinterpretd what I said...

@ Strangercoug

Largely millar13's case. Yes, I just accused him of bussing you (and vice versa ), but as I said, the case is good. I'm looking at #126 minus the first paragraph. Most of what concerns me about millar13 is the early part of this game. You, on the other hand, have been responding very poorly to pressure lately.

When I flip town, does your "Idea" of millar & me bussing each other excuse him from a lynching?

[/quote]
I will explain my thought processes about this one last time in plain, unadorned English:

• I thought millar13 was acting scummy.
  
• I thought you were acting scummy.
  
• millar13 posts what I believe to be a decent case against you.
  
• You post what I believe to be a decent case against millar13.
  
• I do not know there to be more than one scum group, and neither does anybody else aligned with the town.
  
• Therefore, I think you are bussing each other.

What would you like me to elaborate on?

I'm sorry. Is this supposed to be the Spanish Inquisition?

I may not have put any suspicions about Firestarter in the form of a question lately, but what I don't like about him after I stopped asking questions is clear—does he really want to play or not? If he doesn't want to play, then I'm fine with him lynched; in fact, I told him to self-hammer if that's the case. If he DOES want to play, though, then he needs to wake up and do some decent scumhunting, not just sling mud every which way he pleases.

RE: the bolded part... LOL, just LOL. Try being me about 10 pages ago...
Its hardly the Spanish inquisition now, is it?
You think Im scum because Im resigned to being lynched?
You stopped asking questions because it looked very clearly that I would be lynched before the replacements came into the game. And Yes, I want to remain in the game. I may have been resigned to being lynched, but at no point did I ever want to leave the game. You can now drop that line of thinking.[/quote]
Thank you for saying this.

@SC: I still don't follow your logic of bussing... You said it more than once throughout the game... Why not just say that one being scum doesn't rule the other out?

I thought I did so by denying that Firestarter flipping town would clear millar13 in my mind.

I may have missed this, but where did you deny this exactly?

Post #163.

You called millar's case on Fire a good case but this is a "Very good case"?

It's subjective, really. I think millar13's remark is pretty damning toward you.

Isn't the following quote by M13 more or less the same?

However, if Firestarter is lynched

people

are saying that I flip scum.

To my knowledge only you, SC said this. Which makes M13 as wrong as alexhans.
Its not a case, its a poor attempt at reflecting questions.

I don't recall anyone else saying they'd suspect millar13 after you flip scum either.

Why would I put all this effort and try to defend things that Fire said and boost discussion against a lynch if I was scum?

This is the second time you've committed WIFOM, and that along with you

constantly saying one thing when the reality is another

is really getting on my nerves here.

What reality??? . Please explain the bolded.

You shouldn't be using WIFOM to prove your innocence anyway, but that's because WIFOM is an effed up mind game.

WIFOM, therefore, should rarely be used by the town as any form of strategy let alone a defense.

(I was about ready to say never, but then doc protections came to mind.

WIFOM, Im almost sure about (I would need to clarify this), has possibly been mentioned the most by you, SC.

OK, so what is the problem with it?

2) So would you be ok with a millar lynch right now instead of Fire?

I'm actually starting to suspect you more than millar13, but I can still get behind lynching him at this point.

You've stated numerous times that M13 was "as" scummy as me...

I wasn't talking to you.

You then go on to ask why I linked you to Isaac, which in truth, I did not do.

There are also interactions Im not happy with between M13 and Issac and SC.

You are contradicting yourself. I understand where you're getting the connection between millar13 and me, and I can also see how you're connecting millar13 with Isacc. The second quote, however, implies that the connection is a triangle, not a V.

You follow this up by asking me about the "connection" between you & isaac, again showing too much defensiveness for my liking.

See above. You

STILL

haven't given me an answer to this.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP:

millar13 is guilty of making slips early in the game and tried to defend them by saying his fingers were broken, which I don't buy.

Firestarter is guilty of several misrepresentations. For example, somehow in #159 he thinks that millar13 will be cleared in my mind if he gets lynched and flips town, which isn't true. (It will obviously be wrong that they were bussing, but the rest of my case on millar13 will remain valid.)

Huh????
I asked

YOU

about this. I did not state one way or the other what my thoughts would be on what you were thinking of SC. You still have not given your answer to this BTW.
This is my 159... Its pretty clear you've misinterpretd what I said...

@ Strangercoug

Largely millar13's case. Yes, I just accused him of bussing you (and vice versa ), but as I said, the case is good. I'm looking at #126 minus the first paragraph. Most of what concerns me about millar13 is the early part of this game. You, on the other hand, have been responding very poorly to pressure lately.

When I flip town, does your "Idea" of millar & me bussing each other excuse him from a lynching?

I will explain my thought processes about this one last time in plain, unadorned English:

• I thought millar13 was acting scummy.
  
• I thought you were acting scummy.
  
• millar13 posts what I believe to be a decent case against you.
  
• You post what I believe to be a decent case against millar13.
  
• I do not know there to be more than one scum group, and neither does anybody else aligned with the town.
  
• Therefore, I think you are bussing each other.

What would you like me to elaborate on?

[Firestarter]

Am I forbidden to have more than one suspect? Is my vote set in stone? Unless the answer to both of these questions is "yes", then I fail to understand what's wrong with what I'm doing.

I dont see a case from you on either player.
I think the pressure from alexhan has shown that your vote is not set in stone, but it took some convincing to move it.

One of us is apparently blind, because my case on him is not defending you and I can't find where he's doing so.

You seriously think Fire is scum? I don't.

Thats one example I found quickly, most of his earlier posts, to me, more or less sees the same things I seen in the case and posts against me.

At least post the suspicion you talk of.

I did already!

AH has made it clear in his previous posts that he was against my lynch, he believes me to be town, hence thinking that my lynch would be a smart lynch for scum.
And guess what, your using Wifom as leverage to place a FoS, in the quote below, that you've already stated you hate others doing, or to be more correct, town doing.
Your FoS, therefore, is unsupported by your own theory.

I'm on page 6 and already afraid that there is gonna be a smart myslinch regarding Fire.

Excuse me, but, uh... "smart mislynch"?

The only way I'm making sense of this is if you know Firestarter to be town, which is impossible in a day start unless you're scum.

FoS: alexhans

Ok, millar13, you have 2 hours to post your case on me, Ill be gone for this time.

I don't think two hours is a fair time limit. Upgrade to an

HoS: Firestarter

.

WHY???? WHY DO YOU ACCUSE FIRE?
the only "case" you had on him was his not voting Millar...

FoS:StrangerCoug

Uh, hello?

Firestarter's mouth was not where his money was

. Don't you dare generalize my cases!

What do you mean my mouth wasn't where my money was SC?
I didn't make a pathetic attempt at threatening M13 or anything like that.
What did you mean?

You were making a sufficiently big case by my judgment call to be voting millar13, yet you weren't.

Look at my posts in isolation...
I voted M13 in post 21.
7 posts later, I gave him that deadline.
This is NOT a true statement,

its lies.

When I flip town, does your "Idea" of millar & me bussing each other excuse him from a lynching?

What would you like me to elaborate on?

Now you clearly are not just a plain vanilla townie...that is more than clear from post 121. Clearly you are sitting on some sort of power position (I doubt you pro-town, so the assumption almost concretes scum) otherwise you wouldn't be so frustrated and resorting to using offensive language. Why would someone with no real power feel the need to swear and your such horrible and disgusting I do not know.

This is an awfully weak attack, and I'm hearing WIFOM bells go off. The case itself is good, though.

You state this about M13's case on me.

You then state in 235 that my case was good against M13's. But again, you keep the eye on both of us with your "bussing theory."
But you do not slate any of my case like you did M13's.
Why vote for me then, when the logical thing, that I can see, is vote for M13?

You called millar's case on Fire a good case but this is a "Very good case"?

It's subjective, really. I think millar13's remark is pretty damning toward you.

Isn't the following quote by M13 more or less the same?

However, if Firestarter is lynched

people

are saying that I flip scum.

To my knowledge only you, SC said this. Which makes M13 as wrong as alexhans.
Its not a case, its a poor attempt at reflecting questions.

I don't recall anyone else saying they'd suspect millar13 after you flip scum either.

I think your missing the point of why I brought this up...
You make a point of claiming that M13's remark about AH is "pretty damning" (the post when AH exaggerated how many people M13 FoS'd in the game), yet M13 has done more or less the same with his exaggeration of how many people think he may be scum if I flip town, yet nothing??

People is plural, person is singular.

I dont think there's anything in either of them of note, but if you are going to pick up on one, you must pick up on the other.

Why would I put all this effort and try to defend things that Fire said and boost discussion against a lynch if I was scum?

This is the second time you've committed WIFOM, and that along with you

constantly saying one thing when the reality is another

is really getting on my nerves here.

What reality??? . Please explain the bolded.

You haven't answered this.

2) So would you be ok with a millar lynch right now instead of Fire?

I'm actually starting to suspect you more than millar13, but I can still get behind lynching him at this point.

I wasn't talking to you.

Yes, I know.

You then go on to ask why I linked you to Isaac, which in truth, I did not do.

There are also interactions Im not happy with between M13 and Issac and SC.

You are contradicting yourself. I understand where you're getting the connection between millar13 and me, and I can also see how you're connecting millar13 with Isacc. The second quote, however, implies that the connection is a triangle, not a V.

Ok, communication is a factor here, if it was a triangle I'd have written..
There are also interactions Im not happy with between M13

,

Issac and SC.
Maybe it would have been clearer if I wrote...
There are also interactions Im not happy with between M13 and Issac, M13 and SC.
Regardless, I did post this after you questioned the "connection" between you & Isaac in a later post. Post 236.

SC, I had a feeling that either you or Isaac is a scumbuddy with M13.

That point was cleared up on page 10.