Newbie 774 - Spegezzironi: Game Over! TOWN WINS!

[ckool5000]

Actually, you were. Start at page two and work up, you'll see.

[Lamont_Cranston]

No. I know what I did and why. I didn't find anything to suggest that you or Johoolno were scum after initial concern towards that end. I left off voting for both of you because of that.

[ckool5000]

Okay... Well... My vote is still on you...

[sekinj]

Day 1: Vote Count 10 (corrected)

(# of votes against) Voted Player - by Voter(s)

(0) ckool5000 - by none

(0) Johoohno - by none

(0) cpe - by none

(4) Lamont_Cranston - by Rustythepirate; muzzz; SensFan; ckool5000

(0) Perpetuum - by none

(0) Rustythepirate - by none

(2) SensFan - by cpe; Lamont_Cranston

(0) Sotty7 - by none

(1) muzzz - by Perpetuum

Not Voting: Johoohno; Sotty7

With nine (9) citizens alive it takes

five (5) votes to lynch.

Day 1 Deadline: 5/09/09 12:00 PM CST

Announcement:
-Perpetuum has been prodded

Please PM me if I have missed anything.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I never unvoted that was a misquote of someone else. Please restore:

Confirm Vote: Sensfan

[Lamont_Cranston]

And towards that end, the village will be better served with 2 BW choices rather than one. No matter what you believe concerning me I CANNOT be BOTH Mafi so voting for a second choice will be very helpful.

[muzzz]

I am hunting scum my votes (in round 1) provide

pressure

towards that end. It doesn't make sense to come out and say so

while

I'm doing it.

Fair enough. But it does make sense to come out and explain now. So: who did you intend to pressure with your vote? What made you think your vote would pressure them? How did you expect them to react? What have their reactions told you?

The general rule is that silence = village on the BW.

I've never heard of this "general rule". How does "silence = village" work, exactly? Can you show a reference that shows it is indeed a "general" rule.

And towards that end, the village will be better served with 2 BW choices rather than one. No matter what you believe concerning me I CANNOT be BOTH Mafi so voting for a second choice will be very helpful.

How will a second bandwagon help anyone but yourself?

[cpe]

I'm talking from relative inexperience here...

But two bandwagons means you're seeing two people under pressure and so getting lots of desperate responses from two people, not one. Basically more information should come.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I like your line of questioning. I had my doubts at first but I believe now that you are village.

I am hunting scum my votes (in round 1) provide

pressure

towards that end. It doesn't make sense to come out and say so

while

I'm doing it.

Fair enough. But it does make sense to come out and explain now. So: who did you intend to pressure with your vote? What made you think your vote would pressure them? How did you expect them to react? What have their reactions told you?

Of course my initial pressure was on ckool himself; secondarily on everyone else. Votes always provide responses and thus evidence for finding mafi. Reactions take innumerable forms and of course the best hope is some sort of Mafi tell or Village tell. I have found ckool not be exhibiting Mafi behavior. If he has fooled me he has earned it and I will not agree to lynch him until there is some susbstantial change in the current evidence. At first I thought that Johoolno and he were our two Mafi's for his overt and out of place opposition, but I have later come to think that Johoolno is Village as well.

The general rule is that silence = village on the BW.

I've never heard of this "general rule". How does "silence = village" work, exactly? Can you show a reference that shows it is indeed a "general" rule.

Sure, it is a standard rule in Werewolf where I normally play. There are various strategy guides available and rule states that if it is all quiet on a lynch it is probably a villager that is being lynched.

And towards that end, the village will be better served with 2 BW choices rather than one. No matter what you believe concerning me I CANNOT be BOTH Mafi so voting for a second choice will be very helpful.

How will a second bandwagon help anyone but yourself?

It helps the village which also helps me because I am a villager whether I am lynched or not. The village is helped because if you have two good candidates for Mafi it will give excellent evidence based on the behavior of each player. The chances go up that you ACTUALLY have a Mafi in your sights -- so you focus on TWO people to lynch instead of one and this way its much harder for the Mafi to hide and you get the maximum evidential benefit even if you DO sadly lynch a villager.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I'm talking from relative inexperience here...

But two bandwagons means you're seeing two people under pressure and so getting lots of desperate responses from two people, not one. Basically more information should come.

True and even better you get to see how EVERYONE ELSE behaves which is your major benefit

[sekinj]

Notice: Perpetuum has been replaced by semioldguy effective immediately.

[Sotty7]

You may have noticed that I ceased voting for you some time ago, haven't mentioned your name since & publicly stated the dynamics hand changed.

But here you are adding your name to a village BW...

So people are only allowed to suspect those that suspect them?

No I was just noting for the record that I didn't push for his lynch; I voted for him briefly and moved on. I just wanted to make it clear that I haven't suspected him of anything for some time but that it was strange that all of a sudden he was joining this BW.

Why does that even matter?

Plus if you want another wagon so bad, why don't you push one? You voted Sens but have done no actual pressuring of him. Why aren't you questioning and probing him?

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think I've had enough of talking with Sens for the moment. I do find him to be quite anti-village and am beginning to suspect that in this case it means more than just his "regular" behavior but its only my opinion and I'm waiting for input from others.

[muzzz]

But two bandwagons means you're seeing two people under pressure and so getting lots of desperate responses from two people, not one. Basically more information should come.

Pressure isn't an infinite resource. You only have so much of it, and it tends to spread wherever it can. Both in physics and mafia. Two bandwagons means you'll see two people under less pressure than the target of a single bandwagon. It might lead to more information, I guess. But I seriously doubt it'll lead to more

accurate

information.

It helps the village which also helps me because I am a villager whether I am lynched or not. The village is helped because if you have two good candidates for Mafi it will give excellent evidence based on the behavior of each player. The chances go up that you ACTUALLY have a Mafi in your sights -- so you focus on TWO people to lynch instead of one and this way its much harder for the Mafi to hide and you get the maximum evidential benefit even if you DO sadly lynch a villager.

How is it harder to hide for the mafia if we focus on two people? What evidence would we gain that we wouldn't gain from a single bandwagon?

As for chances, it's not just having at least one mafia in your sight that becomes more likely. It also becomes more likely that you'll have at least one townie sight. Don't you think that a double bandwagon will make it easier for mafia to manipulate townies into lynching the wrong person?

I think I've had enough of talking with Sens for the moment. I do find him to be quite anti-village and am beginning to suspect that in this case it means more than just his "regular" behavior[...]

I'll share something I learned in my previous game: if you're truly suspicious of Sens, you should still be trying to convince us that you're right. Not wanting to argue with Sens himself is one thing. But if you drop the case completely we can only assume your suspicions were unfounded.

[...] but its only my opinion and I'm waiting for input from others.

Saying you want input from others on your suspicions is generally a bad idea. At best, it makes you look uncertain, making it hard for you to push your case. But people might also wonder if you have no suspicions of your own (e.g., because you're scum) and want tag along with others.

It's even worse when it comes from someone who's suggesting we start a second bandwagon while he's at L-1. You come off as someone who's opportunisticly looking for the most likely bandwagon in hopes of saving himself.

[SensFan]

I think I've had enough of talking with Sens for the moment. I do find him to be quite anti-village and am beginning to suspect that in this case it means more than just his "regular" behavior but its only my opinion and I'm waiting for input from others.

There's always at least 1-2 Newbs who think I'm completely obvscum in these games. Look up my previous games, it has nothing to do with my alignment.

[Lamont_Cranston]

But two bandwagons means you're seeing two people under pressure and so getting lots of desperate responses from two people, not one. Basically more information should come.

Pressure isn't an infinite resource. You only have so much of it, and it tends to spread wherever it can. Both in physics and mafia. Two bandwagons means you'll see two people under less pressure than the target of a single bandwagon. It might lead to more information, I guess. But I seriously doubt it'll lead to more

accurate

information.

I've seen it used multiple times and it is quite powerful if set up correctly and its definitely better than only focusing on one lynch as far as gathering mafi intel/

It helps the village which also helps me because I am a villager whether I am lynched or not. The village is helped because if you have two good candidates for Mafi it will give excellent evidence based on the behavior of each player. The chances go up that you ACTUALLY have a Mafi in your sights -- so you focus on TWO people to lynch instead of one and this way its much harder for the Mafi to hide and you get the maximum evidential benefit even if you DO sadly lynch a villager.

How is it harder to hide for the mafia if we focus on two people? What evidence would we gain that we wouldn't gain from a single bandwagon?

Watching which player goes where and combining that with the lynch info & night kill info PLUS the info gathered from each of the lynchees, it just gives way more info to the village for identifying mafi.

As for chances, it's not just having at least one mafia in your sight that becomes more likely. It also becomes more likely that you'll have at least one townie sight. Don't you think that a double bandwagon will make it easier for mafia to manipulate townies into lynching the wrong person?

If so it will be documented and identifiable

I think I've had enough of talking with Sens for the moment. I do find him to be quite anti-village and am beginning to suspect that in this case it means more than just his "regular" behavior[...]

I'll share something I learned in my previous game: if you're truly suspicious of Sens, you should still be trying to convince us that you're right. Not wanting to argue with Sens himself is one thing. But if you drop the case completely we can only assume your suspicions were unfounded.

I have and am waiting for now.

[...] but its only my opinion and I'm waiting for input from others.

Saying you want input from others on your suspicions is generally a bad idea. At best, it makes you look uncertain, making it hard for you to push your case. But people might also wonder if you have no suspicions of your own (e.g., because you're scum) and want tag along with others.

I'm waiting for opinions from others sorry.

It's even worse when it comes from someone who's suggesting we start a second bandwagon while he's at L-1. You come off as someone who's opportunisticly looking for the most likely bandwagon in hopes of saving himself.

Sorry but a dual BW is way better for the village because the more info the village has the easier it is to nab mafi. I'm only passing on info to try to help which is about all I can do right now besides letting everyone know that its a mistake to lynch me bc I'm village.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Thanks for sharing Sens call me a newb if you want but YOU'RE the one advocating the lynching of a villager NOT ME. So don't tell me how I'M the newb.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Oh but I forgot you don't care about lynching villagers its just the way to do things for you.

Confirm Vote: Sensfan

[semioldguy]

Hello everyone.

Checking in. I just picked up my PM, but I'm at work so can't really catch up right now. A quick glance shows Lamont_Cranston at L-1. I'd like to ask that nobody hammer until I can post some of my thoughts on the game (hopefully this goes without saying). I will be able to fully read the thread and catch up by tonight.

[muzzz]

I've seen it used multiple times and it is quite powerful if set up correctly and its definitely better than only focusing on one lynch as far as gathering mafi intel/

This contains no content that can be factually checked.

Sorry but a dual BW is way better for the village because the more info the village has the easier it is to nab mafi.

This tell me absolutely

nothing

about

HOW

a dual bandwagon is better than a single one. You don't even seem to be trying here, actually.

Watching which player goes where and combining that with the lynch info & night kill info PLUS the info gathered from each of the lynchees, it just gives way more info to the village for identifying mafi.

This is an attempt, at least. But no, it doesn't

just

give us more info.

What you've completely failed to explain in the posts above is how it's

better

than a single lynch. In fact, you've completely foregone comparing the two. Not good.

I think I've had enough of talking with Sens for the moment. I do find him to be quite anti-village and am beginning to suspect that in this case it means more than just his "regular" behavior[...]

I'll share something I learned in my previous game: if you're truly suspicious of Sens, you should still be trying to convince us that you're right. Not wanting to argue with Sens himself is one thing. But if you drop the case completely we can only assume your suspicions were unfounded.

I have and am waiting for now.

[...] but its only my opinion and I'm waiting for input from others.

Saying you want input from others on your suspicions is generally a bad idea. At best, it makes you look uncertain, making it hard for you to push your case. But people might also wonder if you have no suspicions of your own (e.g., because you're scum) and want tag along with others.

I'm waiting for opinions from others sorry.

Oh but I forgot you don't care about lynching villagers its just the way to do things for you.

Confirm Vote: Sensfan

The space between the two posts above is 2 minutes and 0 input/opinions from others. Yet they completely contradict each other. So tell me, which is the one that's completely insincere?

[cpe]

muzzz: those two posts of Lamont's don't contradict each other as far as I can see.

He just insults SensFen in both of them and in both of them claims that Sens wants to lynch villagers.

[muzzz]

Which part of his second post sounds like waiting to you?

[Rustythepirate]

How many times do you have to confirm a vote, Lamont_Cranston? The more you confirm it the less significant it becomes. And muzzz is right, if you genuinely think SensFan is scum, the pro-town thing to do would to be to try to convince the rest of the town that he is scum - not give up and stop talking to him. Generally whenever someone decides to stop talking to someone completely in a game I vote for them as it's a scum-tell to me.

[cpe]

muzzz: those two posts of Lamont's don't contradict each other as far as I can see.

He just insults SensFen in both of them and in both of them claims that Sens wants to lynch villagers.

Ooh wait sorry, I was comparing:

Oh but I forgot you don't care about lynching villagers its just the way to do things for you.

Confirm Vote: Sensfan

With

Thanks for sharing Sens call me a newb if you want but YOU'RE the one advocating the lynching of a villager NOT ME. So don't tell me how I'M the newb.

Hmm, well, there isn't a direct contradiction (between the two you were actually hihglighting), in one he talks of waiting in the other he sounds in a hurry. Maybe being at L-1 is making him act erratically?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Its called DADV -- Dead Air, Dead Villager. That's the principle anyway.

If you can't see how a dual bandwagon provides more info for the village, I'm sorry I can't help you.

Sensfan's attitude is expressly and blatanly anti-village, it pisses me off and sorry if you don't like it.