Mini 774: Case Closed Mafia (One Truth Prevails!)

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: What's the vote count?

[Isacc]

Christ, I try to do a reread and then I have Wall-o-text wall-o-text wall-o-text to catch up on.

Can we slow down this weekend? Prom is tomorrow, and Idk when I'm even gonna be able to post again. I need a day or two of

V/LA

soooo yeah.

I'll catch up sunday or monday. Sorry guys.

[Gorrad]

Inquisitor Vulcan Skorn replaces Rage and Kairyuu replaces Afatchic. Still seeking a replacement for Ghost Writer.

Vote Count:

Firestarter(4): Isacc, Millar13, Korlash, Battousai
StrangerCoug(3): Kairyuu, Firestarter, Sajin
alexhans(2): Inquisitor Vulcan Skorn, StrangerCoug
Korlash(1): alexhans
Lindisfarne(1): GhostWriter

Not Voting(1): Lindisfarne

[Kairyuu]

unvote

Starting my reread now.

It's nice to see so many familiar faces.

[Isacc]

ZOMG Kairyuu O.o

[Sajin]

How?

he had 2 votes I had a fos. The person under pressure he refered to was likely himself, freudian slip.

[StrangerCoug]

How?

he had 2 votes I had a fos. The person under pressure he refered to was likely himself, freudian slip.

This is crap. I know Firestarter's case on me to be serious, but your case on me is a joke and can be summed up as you telling me "Yeah, whatever, scaredy cat." If you're going to vote me, at least present me with something worth defending like Firestarter did. Don't be skimping on scumhunting to see what you can get away with.

Unvote: alexhans
Vote: Sajin

[Lindisfarne]

Starting on page 14:

Sajin:

post 338;

1-Yes lots (not all, but lots) are WIFOM arguements. But clearly I perfer the other glass of wine in this case. Your clearly judgemental on my join date. Do you bow down in homage of 2004 players?

Which "glass" you prefer is fine, but saying "thats WIFOM, scum could manipulate blah blah blah" is not a good counter, defense, or attack on any point of logic. It is a given that scum will try to manipulate any goings on they can in this game, to the best of their ability. Instead of saying it's WIFOM, instead elaborate even more on why you believe the other end of the argument.

I'm not too judgmental on join date. I'm judgmental on how someone is playing. And countering a point with just saying that it's WIFOM, and not backing it up with much more is weak play. No offense intended.

2-3: I can't tell you what information until the flip occurs. The lot strictly refers to him having a lot of posts in the thread which sheds more light on possible information because we now know the true alignment of more posts in the thread. If you don't consider this as information then

Is your response to me saying:

BS. Be specific, since I don't believe this. What posts will reveal information to you depending on his flip? All I see is him attacking miller, and whoever attacked him. How does that reveal a "lot of information". So far this game fire has been mostly lashing back at people like a cornered dog (no offense). If you want to lynch someone for information, d1 is normally not the day to do it.

You say it will reveal a lot of information by lynching him, and yet, you say by a lot you referenced his post count, which I had a counter initially for saying the whole game he spent pretty much defending himself. All those posts of him defending himself don't count if he's lynched, since we'll know what his alignment is by lynching him.

And I still don't believe you, by the way. If you honestly wanted to use his posts as weight on cases against others, after knowing his alignment, you'd feel better about not pushing the lynch so fast. The more fire talks, the more material to work with when his role is revealed. I think you were just wanting a good, quick lynch.

4- I do not see a response.

sorry about that, I normally take all questions, put them in a list on a quick reply page and answer as I go down. I missed that one.

4 "next": So your saying a list of scum does not provide a list of who you think is town as well?

No, it doesn't. I could name two people I think are most likely to be scum. Does that mean I think EVERYONE else is town? HELL NO. Why would you even assume I think that? I asked for the top two scummy people from everyone.

If someone tells me top two, that doesn't mean they only think two people are scummy, or that they think all the rest are townies. It just means that out of all of us, those two are the most likely to be scum to them. I don't see why anyone would assume the others on the list are townies in that person's eyes.

Even so, even if someone made up a detailed list saying" _____, ______, and ______ are scum to me and ______ and ______ are definitely townies" how does that benefit scum? Will they chose their nightkill based off of what one person thinks? Scum will kill whoever benefits them the most to die. Killing one person listed as scum or townie on a player's list does not benefit them much if at all. And if you suggest they would use the list to manipulate a kill to frame someone else: Wake up. Scum can and will do that regardless of a list. Hell, if millar and fire live today, and millar dies in the night, scum could have orchestrated a kill to frame fire (WIFOM, but im using it just as an example, I don't think that situation would happen at all, unless the scum wasn't very bright). Scum can orchestrate such a thing without a list, because those two have animosity in game already.

I don't see how a list will give scum an unfair advantage. If anything, it gives us more material to question one another, and probe each others alignments.

The problem with that post is you went from EVERYONE to just two people. You didn't relate to why, and how it was changed. You over exaggerated and to make matters worse didn't actually bother to quote, which mean you already knew you were trying to make it sound more than it actually was.

I agree fully. Either he was posting whatever he wanted without actually looking up the facts, or he was purposefully misconstruing the facts to better suit his case. Either way is scummy.

It might seem like a null-tell, but after a while enough null tells form a foundational base for a scum member.

I don't think it's a null tell, more of a slight scumtell to me, but still I have to disagree with you; enough null tells does not form a foundational base for a scum member. How can it? It's a null tell.

What would you say if someone suggested a name massclaim?

Personally, I would vote against it. It's a random variable thrown into the pot. If everyone claims a name, the names could be totally eskewed, or as we'd expect. They were given in secret, they should stay secret.

This is the second time you've committed WIFOM, and that along with you constantly saying one thing when the reality is another is really getting on my nerves here.

^ This. The WIFOM bit I don't mind, since his actions can honestly go both ways, and bringing that up doesn't make him scum or town: but he is saying one thing while the actuality is another -Points at millar's quote earlier in this post-

You must be thinking of my Father Mr. Korlash. I'm actually 12th in line for Blackblade and haven't quite mastered Grandeur yet.. ;-; But when I do I'll be putting two islands into play! yeah... Take that...

Oh god, just enough for a counter! U/B never sounded so good...

post 49 made me laugh. Firestarter is going on about how pressure on someone is good, and is a good tactic....and he then tells millar to calm down and unvotes him? Wow, way to nix your own logic there.

How is it nixing my own logic?

You went against your own philosophy. You say in that post that pressure is good, a good tactic, and in the same post, you try to calm down your aggressor, and you even unvote him. You were going against your own philosophy.

[quote="fire]LF, can you point to the part in M13's logic, I or SC should have attacked, it seems you seen something? [/quote]

I am not going to make a case for you, fire.

I admit this looks bad on my part, but Isaac just turns up after Ive tried to defend myself for so long, and imo, without as much as reading anything, he stated what others wrote and instantly placed his vote on me. The post he made this in was his 3rd of the game, the other 2 coming in the RVS. I got highly pissed off that if Isaac is town, he should have thought things over more before jumping on a BW. He did not come across as someone who thought about that instant vote, imo.

Call it meta, but isacc thinks things out quite well, from what I've played with him. There are times in a game that your honest views match what others have said, or that you have nothing else to add. Just because his views matched others, doesn't mean he is a scumbuddy (especially not if it was, as you said, just his third post. You would have had no way to get enough information to judge that). Seems like you got heated up and lashed out, but at least you admit to it instead of trying to cover it up with bad logic.

For alot of pages previous to you replacing in LF, Ive had to defend myself against a barrage, of what I consider to be crap, of attacks.
You came into the game, and took a good look back through the game and gave an assesment I'd attribute to townies. I didn't state you were townie or likely townie to me, just that your first real post was pro-town.

Fair enough.

I cannot elaborate without breaking forum conduct rules, namely referencing other mafia websites and/or ongoing games. Suffice it to say its happened before.

That said, I like your arguments here.

unvote, vote: strangercoug

Wha?

Dodging answering the question, questionable logic in how to play (see beginning of this post) and

Don't OMGUS me and then I may respond to you.

bugs the shit out of me.

Firestar has been coming across as townie in his latest few posts. This neither clears him nor confirms him. With 3 possible new people coming in I don't want to see a quick lynch. I am pursuing another lead for the moment. And his squirmyness as I turned my eye has made me more suspicious.

How? What in his post sounds townie?

Korlash:

I know I've explained it somewhere... But it helps because it gives them info on who to NK in order to set up the next day's mislynch. and it is not WIFOM, it is fact. Posting a scum list right before a lynch is a dumb move. The only people who should do it are the person ebing lynched and the person(s) that are Nked. (And yes, I know no one knows if they will be Night killed which is why it's a dumb move by anyone)

I've explained earlier in this list that there are other ways scum can set things up. Not posting a list of who we find scummy makes no difference, and saying that scum will base choices off that is a reach.

I wouldn't be such a stickler on this if it didn't seem like so many people so absolutely aberrant against sharing information with town.

Becuase they still lead to helping the scum choose and pick their NK and manufacture the next days mislynch. That combined with how obsolete they become only solidifies not doing it, not only does it help scum but it in no way helps town, A.K.A. Don't do it.

Now, I will state that yes, I agree lists become obsolete, but if scum wanted to rip a kill to influence tomorrow's lynch, it can be done easily enough period, without lists. I understand you wanting to be cautious, if that's your playstyle, and I wont fault you for it, but I feel not sharing our thoughts as townies is an anti-town activity, as such I've gotten on sajin for.

Do you disagree with my point on a scum list (with details on WHY we find these people scummy, not just a list; I also wanted reasoning behind it) being a tool to help sniff out scum?

If you don't understand how it can be utilized to find scum, I'll be happy to elaborate on it. I was just assuming everyone would see it's usefulness.

Stretching? it is in no way stetching what so ever. I gave you the opprotunity to answer it and you blew me off. If it was a stretch you should have corrected me then and there.

Fire, just because you "told so much" doesn't mean people won't vote you. I agree with korlash here.

You are the only one of those players calling for more time though.

No, I've also called for more time in a roundabout way.

sadly I feel the extra discussion may lead to you walking, which is going to cause problems in the future... You flip will give town piece of mind if nothing else. You surviving until endgame will definitly decrease our odds of winning. And no, that is not the only reason I want you lynched, but it is a good thing to remember. You're flip also has a good chance of turning up scum, and in the event of turning up town you have been the most centered person today, meaning you will likely have connections to every player, thus giving us that much more to work with.

Peace of mind? how so? I wont have full peace of mind until the game is over. Peace of mind is a horrid reason to lynch. How will his surviving to endgame DECREASE our odds of wining? his turning up town won't give us diddly, although I do think I think I can forsee what scum will try to do if he does turn up town. All of your points on him are HEAVILY opinionated, and none that I've seen in that last post have any good evidence or backing.

i don't personally believe this time is going to help us out. (the fact people seem to be going away from your lynch for instance)

Korlash, I would like to ask you, what is it fire has done that has made him such a scummy target?

You seem almost bloodthirsty for fire in how that's worded, and you strongly don't want town to move from this lynch, therefore you must be deadset that fire is the right lynch for town. I don't want opinions or you're thoughts on how town can gather information from his flip, I want evidence please, what evidence can you show us that marks fire as scum?

You dont want people to move from a fire lynch, so here's your chance. Spell your case on him.

No... it is not... Scum Run Discussion is alway detrimental and disasterous to the town. All my other examples, tl;dr, wow, and whatever else I said is also always bad. Discussion based on false assumptions and misinterpretations or misunderstandings will always lead to the wrong conclusions and thus is always bad. Do I need to go on? Discussion is not "always good, everytime" Cased closed. One truth prevails, yadda yadda... so on and so forth...

Guess what? We don't know who the scum is. So while I agree, we all would; Scum running the discussions would be bad, yes; we have no idea who is scum and who is a townie. Thats what the discussion is FOR. Mafia is played under the premise that scum will act differently than town. Just because scum running discussion can be bad, doesn't mean we shouldn't have discussion at all. That example, on top of the point of you being afraid to post a list because you think scum can manipulate it makes me wonder if mafia is really the game for you. No offense korlash. Mafia isn't a game where we're all mavericks, we work as a team. It's good to have a level of paranoia, yes, but we can't let that cause us to fear discussion.

And of course if my hypothesis is true and this new discusion leads to your wagon failing, and you survive until endgame... It could very well lose us the game if you are town.

Survive until endgame? but you were talking before about how he'd be on the chopping block throughout the whole game if he lives today. You are trying your BEST to make sure fire dies TODAY. Your future logic is fuzzy.

Vote:Korlash

Two things:

1. I want to hear more from you, especially why you think fire is such a menace that NEEDS to die TODAY.
2. Don't take anything I said offensively. I can come off sounding a bit mean at times, and it's not my attention. I just find your logic very questionable.

MOD: I've talked to two players about replacing in for you, hopefully you'll hear from them soon.

* I ended up accidentally miss-pasting things around in the middle of typing that. I've looked it over a few times, but if anything doesn't make sense, let me know, I might have accidentaly lost something.

[Lindisfarne]

Sorry for the double post, I'm glad the two I mentioned above are in the game

Hello guys.

[Inquisitor Vulcan Skorn]

Unvote

Kairyuu, Isacc, and Lindisfarne? Excellent! This game will prove most enjoyable!

And, StrangerCoug, I've heard so much about you, I look forward to playing with you.

I'm reading the thread now, I'll have a post up in the next day or so, Sunday at the latest.

[Kairyuu]

millar is town, and waaay better than he was when he first got here a couple months ago.

He's scumhunting, and making some sense. My read is mostly gut though, and I'm not digging through that again for town tells, mostly because that would be stupid either way.

Firestarter is town too (though I wish I wasn't so sure of that, since he's a nuisance).

This one is more solid. The resignation was way too sincere to be faked, and the position he was in when it happened was too dangerous to try that as scum.

Also, his 240 looks alot like a partial role pm quote, and I'm confused as to why he wasn't modkilled.

Strangercoug is scum.

If you die and flip town, there will still be stuff that I can get on millar13 for.

That is the exact type of scumslip that no one caught me on way back when in Facedown and Thirsty.

Plus there's the whole issue with being so eager to please, especially regarding Isacc.

vote: Strangercoug

alexhans is scum too. Too many reasons to count, but I'm too lazy to dig them up right now. Maybe Saturday (prom is tommorrow, so you get nothing then).

[Kairyuu]

Also, Hiya LF, IVS, Isacc, and Strangercoug!

Familiar faces are always good.

[Sajin]

How?

he had 2 votes I had a fos. The person under pressure he refered to was likely himself, freudian slip.

This is crap. I know Firestarter's case on me to be serious, but your case on me is a joke and can be summed up as you telling me "Yeah, whatever, scaredy cat." If you're going to vote me, at least present me with something worth defending like Firestarter did. Don't be skimping on scumhunting to see what you can get away with.

Unvote: alexhans
Vote: Sajin

sorry, I perfer shorter posts. I still explain stuff. Just because I don't write mafia essays does not make my few points less valid.

[Sajin]

@Lindisfarne

1: I got tired of the quadruple nested quotes with long posts all on the same subject. Conversation was lacking especially with out replacements.

2-3: I still think it provides information. This is not a strong argument I agree.

4/next: I think the benefits *ON DAY 1* favor scum over town. Later on, I totally agree with you.

[Battousai]

How?

he had 2 votes I had a fos. The person under pressure he refered to was likely himself, freudian slip.

This is crap. I know Firestarter's case on me to be serious, but your case on me is a joke and can be summed up as you telling me "Yeah, whatever, scaredy cat." If you're going to vote me, at least present me with something worth defending like Firestarter did. Don't be skimping on scumhunting to see what you can get away with.

Unvote: alexhans
Vote: Sajin

sorry, I perfer shorter posts. I still explain stuff. Just because I don't write mafia essays does not make my few points less valid.

Yes, yes it does. It does if your points are vague.

[Sajin]

How?

he had 2 votes I had a fos. The person under pressure he refered to was likely himself, freudian slip.

This is crap. I know Firestarter's case on me to be serious, but your case on me is a joke and can be summed up as you telling me "Yeah, whatever, scaredy cat." If you're going to vote me, at least present me with something worth defending like Firestarter did. Don't be skimping on scumhunting to see what you can get away with.

Unvote: alexhans
Vote: Sajin

sorry, I perfer shorter posts. I still explain stuff. Just because I don't write mafia essays does not make my few points less valid.

Yes, yes it does. It does if your points are vague.

thats different from "skimping"

[alexhans]

No... it is not... Scum Run Discussion is alway detrimental and disasterous to the town.

But we don't know who scum is! We all discuss and try to find scum tells and argue points until someone looks probable scum.

Also, his 240 looks alot like a partial role pm quote, and I'm confused

as to why he wasn't modkilled.

Then you haven't paid much attention to the game. He clearly stated how he

posted the flavour without quoting.

Strangercoug is scum.

If you die and flip town, there will still be stuff that I can get on millar13

for.

That is the exact type of scumslip that no one caught me on way back when in Facedown

and Thirsty.

Plus there's the whole issue with being so eager to please, especially regarding

Isacc.

vote: Strangercoug

Hah! That's your whole case? did you even read the entire game? No commentary on anything that has happened? No thoughts about anything?

alexhans is scum too.

Too many reasons to count, but I'm too lazy to dig them up

right now

. Maybe Saturday (prom is tommorrow, so you get nothing then).

Ok. So far you just came down and stated that 2 people were town (one gut call) and two were scum... You must be a great scum-hunter! You know so much and explain so little... You accuse me but leave it at that? Couldn't you at least state a key reason? Are you to lazy to dig it up or to look for a case to manufacture? And someone said I was anti-town... posting votes on Thursday and saying you won't explain till Saturday ... come on.

Well... from your wiki I see you're and agressive player and you are far more concerned with semantics than you should be, apparently... Whatever. I thought being agressive meant attacking with reasons too.

@Sajin. I too feel you haven't provided a decent case against SC. You just seemed to go along with the flow.

[Sajin]

@alexhans

I think I caught a slip, that is valid reason enough for me to add to previously mentioned reasons.

I don't think you have provided a viable defense for him.

[alexhans]

I don't think you have provided a viable defense for him.

Wait! who are you talking about? SC? When did I defend him?

[Gorrad]

V/LA from Friday evening until Monday evening. I'll try my best to post when I can.

[Korlash]

1. Endgame?? We havent even lynched 1 person, yet your using WIFOM to argue against my "being in the game".
The simple fact is that the case built on me by M13 has now degenerated since I posted my most recent thoughts on the game, and since more input and analysing of the actual game thus far took place, even M13 has big doubts about the game panning out the way it was.
I refuted that case, and others have removed their votes from me.
Even players who at one stage were ignoring everything I posted.
Just saying "Town need to know your flip", isn't a case... but it has been something you've said quite alot in this game.

It's not WIFOM. If you are town you need to be lynched now. Otherwise, if you survive until LYLO or any other endgame scenario, you will probably either be one of the top two candidates or the most likely cndidate by yourself. Either way you would then have a good chance of being the lynch, and if town, would lose us the game.

By lynching you now we remove you from that situation AND we gain all the knowledge and info that might and will come from your alignment reveal. The only way you should be alowed to live through today would be if a cop investigates you. However, I would rather our cop investigates someone who will likely be useful, AKA not freaking vanilla, so when and if any massclaim comes about we get more (and more important) town confirmed. Yes, it's a little... unfair i suppose... But you have become detrimental to the town and so by lynching you we gain your alignment flip and connections to everyone from today plus we avoid any scenarios in the future where you being alive costs us.

I tell you what Korlash, you seem to think Im still scummy, I'd really like to hear it in one post please. Loud and clear.

Your claim is fucking Bullshit and you should be lynched for that and that alone. Everythign else I am saying is just icing on the cake. Now lets see if I can remember what about your claim was the BS part... Um... I think it had something to do with using both english and japanese and then admitting to having looked your claim up on wikipedia... Although I could be getting my games mixed up. I'm in two anime revolving theme games and similar shit is happening in each one.

You claimed to be jimmy's mom, vanilla, and used the japanese name for Jimmy right?

2. This translates to you knowing it was a loaded question Im afraid...

... no it doesn't. You could have easily answered "no" to it with no reprocussions. That is proof it is not loaded. a loaded question has detremental reprocussions form both a "no" and "yes" answer.

And of course even if it was a loaded question, you avoided answering it. Even avoidance of a loaded question is a bad thing to do. The correct answer to any an all loaded questions is "that is a loaded question, why are you asking me that?" Not "you know the answer to that..."

I've explained earlier in this list that there are other ways scum can set things up. Not posting a list of who we find scummy makes no difference, and saying that scum will base choices off that is a reach.

... No... it is not a reach. Just because there are other ways scum can set things up doesn't change that they can and will also use end game scum lists. If four people all say they thing player X is scum, the scum won't kill player X... They will mislynch him next day. Posting scum lists right before a lynch is a dumb idea.

I wouldn't be such a stickler on this if it didn't seem like so many people so absolutely aberrant against sharing information with town.

sharing info is fine, but sharing that specific info right before night is stupid. It in no way helps us and only creates opprotunities for us to lose. The only thing we lose by not posting them is the scum lists of the people who are Nightkilled. But if we are good we can easily read their posts and find out who they had a problem with and why.

Now, I will state that yes, I agree lists become obsolete, but if scum wanted to rip a kill to influence tomorrow's lynch, it can be done easily enough period, without lists. I understand you wanting to be cautious, if that's your playstyle, and I wont fault you for it, but I feel not sharing our thoughts as townies is an anti-town activity, as such I've gotten on sajin for.

... Have you even given a point why sharing the "lists" right before a lynch is so much more important then sharing it at the start of day 2? seriously, I'm being cautious because it's better to dot hat, then post worthless info. There is no gain to posting a scum list right before night... none... The lists scum would give us have the same cahnce of outing them as any other post they make, so it's kinda not necessary for that. The lists from the Nked people are easy to find as long as they were active and posted enough. And if they weren't how trustworthy can their lists be anyways? And finally any list made by real townies that change do to night actions don't have to deal with all the nagging questions like "Playe X was your number 1 and today you are calling him town" that fucking outs the cop...

Hell, now I have an argument that makes it anti-town. Do you seriously think this is still worth fighting me over?

Do you disagree with my point on a scum list (with details on WHY we find these people scummy, not just a list; I also wanted reasoning behind it) being a tool to help sniff out scum?

Sure, a tool we can use at the start of day 2 just as easy as the end of day 1. In fact, posting it day 2 does have some higher cahnces of catching scum. (Although granted in some situations posting at the end of day 1 has higher as well) point is, it's roughly the same thing either day, both have the opprotunity to out scum. Meaning I'd rather do it day 2. Town gains the same info and scum doesn't gain the advantage going into night.

If you don't understand how it can be utilized to find scum, I'll be happy to elaborate on it. I was just assuming everyone would see it's usefulness.

I see it's usefulness you are just wrong on the timing. If you can't see that I'm not going to elaberate on it. If you don't realize it scum catching tools kinda lose their effectiveness once you explain them.

No, I've also called for more time in a roundabout way.

Well I won't say I've been paying as much attention to the thread as I should but I haven't noticed you doing this frequently or in a big vocal way. And as you said "roundabout" I'm assuming you havn't been forthcoming over and over and over like Fire has.

My point still stands for the most part, he has been EXTREMELY vocal for it, he has been this way for a long time, and he has been fighting the hardest to get it. Him wasting even a second of this time with stupid questions and vague responces counters all the work he has put forth trying to get it. (Hell I could have accepted the stupid question if he had given me a real responce to my question. I mean at least that would have only wasted one post which is acceptable by anyone's standards. But if he's goign to start failing to respond when people question what he posts he is making his posting wothless and thus making this time not worth it as well)

Peace of mind? how so? I wont have full peace of mind until the game is over. Peace of mind is a horrid reason to lynch. How will his surviving to endgame DECREASE our odds of wining? his turning up town won't give us diddly, although I do think I think I can forsee what scum will try to do if he does turn up town. All of your points on him are HEAVILY opinionated, and none that I've seen in that last post have any good evidence or backing.

well I'm hoping my post here has given you some insight into this a bit more. I think he is scum for his claim, I think he needs to be lynched TODAY because of what his surviving will do to the town, be it a wasted cop investigation or a fucked up endgame. Even tomorrow, a lot of time will be wasted on him. He will almost certainly get a wagon formed on him again at some point. All of this is based on my opinions and my experiences if you don't agree his claim is worth lynhing him for and you don't agree letting him live is a bad idea then don't lynch him. I myself will not unvote him until he or I am buried. (short of undeniable scum being caught that is. i'd take a sure thing over him any day)

Korlash, I would like to ask you, what is it fire has done that has made him such a scummy target? You seem almost bloodthirsty for fire in how that's worded, and you strongly don't want town to move from this lynch, therefore you must be deadset that fire is the right lynch for town. I don't want opinions or you're thoughts on how town can gather information from his flip, I want evidence please, what evidence can you show us that marks fire as scum?

I'm bloodthirsty not for him being scum, but him being detremental to the town. The only real scum ponts aganst him is his bad claim, but of course that too is my opinion and judging from my last Gorrad game I'm not the best judge of character come claiming. And you'd be hard set to find any evidence that isn't unltimately an opinion. I mean what is a scum tell but someone's opinion of something that is scummy? Saying you don't want my opinions is like saying you don't wnat me to post.

Guess what? We don't know who the scum is. So while I agree, we all would; Scum running the discussions would be bad, yes; we have no idea who is scum and who is a townie. Thats what the discussion is FOR. Mafia is played under the premise that scum will act differently than town. Just because scum running discussion can be bad, doesn't mean we shouldn't have discussion at all. That example, on top of the point of you being afraid to post a list because you think scum can manipulate it makes me wonder if mafia is really the game for you. No offense korlash. Mafia isn't a game where we're all mavericks, we work as a team. It's good to have a level of paranoia, yes, but we can't let that cause us to fear discussion.

So? I don't care if we don't know who the scum are, the statment was "discussion is always good" I just fucking proved it wasn't. I won this argument, debate over. Next time, choose your words more carefully. I don't have to prove bad discussion is easy to tell from good discussion, simply that it exists. On that topic, I have proven my point. A worthless argument sure, but I take what victories I can get.

Now as far as the orriginal topic goes, i.e. today's discussion being good or bad, i've already outlined my biggest fear, that is Fire not being lynched. I find this extremely bad for town regardless of what discussion we gain. It's a big strawman on your part arguing me being a maveric hiding info from the town when my entire argument is how that info is bad for the town. Instead of focusing on that, you should be trying to explain how the lists are benefitial to the town and should be done now not later. Focusing instead on the fact I'm not giving information and overlooking the usefulness(if you can find any) and danger of said info is scummy on your part.

Survive until endgame? but you were talking before about how he'd be on the chopping block throughout the whole game if he lives today. You are trying your BEST to make sure fire dies TODAY. Your future logic is fuzzy.

He will be ont he chopping block every day, but endgame is where the most danger lies. if he is lynched or killed before then, then all we lose is the distraction he caused for that day. I'm focusing mainly on the endgame because it's the highlight of WCS for us, it makes my posts shorter and allows me to focus on the main parts. And of course this is another argumental strawman of sorts. I said 'if he survies until endgame' Or gramatically i said if, there is no if right in front of that sentence but the previous if carries over... I'm only saying this now to save time if you fail to undersand that... where was i... right, by somehow implying this statement of mine couters my other statements of being on the chopping block is BS. I said 'if' thus implying he could die previous to it, or you know be lynched some other day.

Can you try keeping future attacks on me on topic? You've pretty much boredlined fucked up everything I've said so far... It's actually making me wonder why you are trying so hard to force me to look like scum instead of just playing the facts like a true town should...

1. I want to hear more from you, especially why you think fire is such a menace that NEEDS to die TODAY.
2. Don't take anything I said offensively. I can come off sounding a bit mean at times, and it's not my attention. I just find your logic very questionable.

1: Think i covered it in this post so check.
2: I didn't. don't take any cussing I did in this personally either. I had a shitty day today and it looks like tomorrow is going to get worse... so... that's just me blowing off steam. And uh, dude I'm Krap Logick Korlash, I'd be suspicious of you if you didn't find my logic questionable. Also I liked that magic reference you said earlier in your post. Felt a bonding moment there man... *gets teary eyed*

This one is more solid. The resignation was way too sincere to be faked, and the position he was in when it happened was too dangerous to try that as scum.

How so? If he was scum who resigned to his death what he did was the most logical way to both try and end the day early yet appear to be wanting it to last longer. And um you're seriously underestimating scum if you think that was 'way too sincere'... just saying...

But we don't know who scum is! We all discuss and try to find scum tells and argue points until someone looks probable scum.

So? How does that in anyway disprove my point? Scum run discussion is bad, yes? Do you agree? Thus, discussion is not ALWAYS GOOD EVERY TIME is it? No. Fuck yeah, case closed. Don't argue with me over inane shit, I will drag you down to my level and beat you with experience. Sometimes being an idiot has it's advantages! HA HA HA!...

[StrangerCoug]

I think I caught a slip,

And I refuted it. Anyone who can read knows who is being referred to as under pressure in that post:

Calling you out on a legitimate suspicion is not being squirmy, so stop using me as a scapegoat to

get pressure off you.

Kairyuu says he also caught a slip, but it's backed by something he did as scum in another game. Yeah, there's not a lot going with his vote, but what's there is sound and I'll start defending what he spat out at me:

Strangercoug is scum.

If you die and flip town, there will still be stuff that I can get on millar13 for.

That is the exact type of scumslip that no one caught me on way back when in Facedown and Thirsty.

The only thing keeping me from thinking millar13 and Firestarter were independently scummy was their attacking each other. I have explained why I thought millar13 and Firestarter were scum other than that. You quoted my refuting that Firestarter being town clears millar13—I don't accuse people of bussing unless I have something solid for both players in question to back it up.

Plus there's the whole issue with being so eager to please, especially regarding Isacc.

Could you cite some examples and explain them?

Now back to Sajin:

I don't think you have provided a viable defense for him.

I can defend myself, thank you very much. You don't need to have others help me, and it's counterintuitive to do so if you suspect me.

[StrangerCoug]

Sorry for the double post, but I missed this.

If you are town you need to be lynched now.

Major HoS: Korlash

. Enough said.

[Firestarter]

I tell you what Korlash, you seem to think Im still scummy, I'd really like to hear it in one post please. Loud and clear.

Your claim is fucking Bullshit and you should be lynched for that and that alone. Everything else I am saying is just icing on the cake. Now lets see if I can remember what about your claim was the BS part... Um... I think it had something to do with using both english and japanese and then admitting to having looked your claim up on wikipedia... Although I could be getting my games mixed up. I'm in two anime revolving theme games and similar shit is happening in each one.

You claimed to be jimmy's mom, vanilla, and used the japanese name for Jimmy right?

This is your case? the claim?
Ok..
This has been answered in 2 posts, firstly, view me in isolation, and read post 59 with the flavour that was requested, and in 62 when I told you why I posted the aforementioned flavour in the way I did.

If you are town you need to be lynched now. Otherwise, if you survive until LYLO or any other endgame scenario, you will probably either be one of the top two candidates or the most likely cndidate by yourself. Either way you would then have a good chance of being the lynch, and if town, would lose us the game.

You are basing this ridiculous theory on me being scum right now, and continuing to be scum right the way through the game, presumably, if Im left alive that long after the aforementioned continuing scum-like actions.
You say that if I'm town, I need to die???? WTF?
Earlier in the game I was being battered by almost everyone in the game, so drawing connections will be quite easy if I flipped town, thats a BS reason, end of.
Your case on me seems to be with the claim Ive given, you've continually said I need to be lynched, culminating in "If I'm Town, you need to be lynched". THAT alone should see you higher in the spotlight, as we are still in a healthy position to catch scum before D1 ends. You want this day to end quicker than anyone else, and your reluctance to discuss, calling it anti-town along the way, makes you scummier too. SC has done this to a lesser extent than you, but has backed off after the posts Ive made, joined with most of the replacements posts. For these reasons then, I must...

UNVOTE: VOTE: Korlash.

[millar13]

Wow I think I am going to have to re-read this.