Open 135 - Polygamist Mafia, Incomplete/Mod Error before 775

[AceMarksman]

yes, that was a what.

[Seraphim]

Vote Count:

Tenchi(2)

- Archon, ortolan

mikek(1)

- ZEEnon

Archon(4)

- AceMarksman, Tenchi, Looker, Jazzmyn

Wall-E(3)

- mykonian, Gregory, mikek

Not Voting(2)

- zwetschenwasser, Wall-E

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

PieIsPopcorn is replaced by ZEEnon, effectively immediately.

Current Deadline:

April 29th, 20:00 Central Time

[AceMarksman]

Yey! welcome ZEEnon!

[Looker]

checkin and checkin, i aint chicken and i damn so aint dead

readin yall...

[ZEEnon]

Gonna give this a full read through!
I should have a grasp of the game by the end of the night, maybe earlier.

[ZEEnon]

I'm going to be honest, by pg. 17 I just skimmed.
If someone wants to briefy summarize the game, please do!

Wall-e:Mik:Ace:Tenchi scumteam. Way to many connections between these four.

While reading, my main suspicions agree with zwetschenwasser's suspicions for the most part.
However, I think that AceMarksman hasn't done anything anit-town.

Has anyone besides Archon & zwetschenwasser claimed lovers?

[Archon]

guys, we need a little more productive talk. I think we had some, the tells are already behind us, and now it is just waiting for us to find them.

I think, that the failed archon wagon tells us something. Also the way people got on it.

Yes! Exactly!

I'm going to be honest, by pg. 17 I just skimmed.
If someone wants to briefy summarize the game, please do!

Wall-e:Mik:Ace:Tenchi scumteam. Way to many connections between these four.

While reading, my main suspicions agree with zwetschenwasser's suspicions for the most part.
However, I think that AceMarksman hasn't done anything anit-town.

Has anyone besides Archon & zwetschenwasser claimed lovers?

Um, are you going to talk in blue all the time? That may get a tad annoying.

[ZEEnon]

That's how I am going to post, not talk.

[Archon]

That's how I am going to post, not talk.

Oh... great.

[mykonian]

zeenon, it might not be a bad idea to unvote.

also, I would like to point at the archon wagon, and things that surround that. That has been the most serious point in this game till now, and several people were not looking good. I would esspecially like to point you to Wall-e and Jazz. Maybe someone earlier in the wagon too, but he/she wasn't that obvious then.

[Gregory]

Archon, Who do you think are scum?

[ZEEnon]

Unvote? But this guy is one of my suspicions,
and my vote is already placed on him even before I come here.

[ZEEnon]

I definitely don't like how some players jumped off of zwetschenwasser
and immediately jumped on to his partner, Archon.
Due to that, I do not think that they, (Archon & zwetschenwasser) are scum.
Even if scum tried to attempt bussing zwetschenwasser, they wouldn't immediately to another partner of theirs.
On the other hand, we have no way to prove the wagon is scum-fueled.

[zwetschenwasser]

The posts given after my hypothesis reinforce it. Tenchi freaks out, mikek simply says "you're wrong, duh" and Ace provides WIFOM, while Wall-e lurks.

[Archon]

Archon, Who do you think are scum?

Have you completley missed all of my posts?
*sigh*
I think that Techni, along with some of the other people voting me are scum. Techni is pushing a terrible case, and the rest of them are blatently following for no reasons.

I definitely don't like how some players jumped off of zwetschenwasser
and immediately jumped on to his partner, Archon.
Due to that, I do not think that they, (Archon & zwetschenwasser) are scum.
Even if scum tried to attempt bussing zwetschenwasser, they wouldn't immediately to another partner of theirs.
On the other hand, we have no way to prove the wagon is scum-fueled.

Read Techni's posts. then answer that question again.

[mikek]

How, in all of god's name can you be this idiotic? Now, for the love of god, grow a brain. I've met mollusks smarter than you.

Oh look. someone isn't interested in being civil.

Uh... huh.

PieIsPopcorn is replaced by ZEEnon, effectively immediately.

Welcome, ZEEnon.

Current Deadline: April 29th, 20:00 Central Time

Mod: At deadline, votes are reset? Is that right?

That's how I am going to post, not talk.

May I ask why you are posting in blue and bold? Speaking for myself, it makes it harder to read. If you need it like that due to some disability, I will understand. Otherwise I'm not sure why you're doing that.

I definitely don't like how some players jumped off of zwetschenwasser and immediately jumped on to his partner, Archon.

Why not? If one of them is scum, so is the other. It makes sense to consolidate votes on a claimed lover pair.

The posts given after my hypothesis reinforce it. Tenchi freaks out, mikek simply says "you're wrong, duh" and Ace provides WIFOM, while Wall-e lurks.

While reading, my main suspicions agree with zwetschenwasser's suspicions for the most part.

Wall-E claimed not to be lovers with Ace, and I'll tell you right now I am not Wall-E's lover. So if that were the scum team, Wall-E would have to claim to be lovers with Tenchi. However that would make no sense as they have publicly argued and would be unable to explain that as lover behavior.

[ZEEnon]

Read Techni's posts. then answer that question again.

I don't believe I answered any question to begin with.

Why not? If one of them is scum, so is the other. It makes sense to consolidate votes on a claimed lover pair.

Even if you stayed voting zwetschenwasser, it would have the same effect.
Lynching zwetschenwasser would obviously take his partner down with him,
so switching votes had no meaning to it whatsoever.
People that did switch their votes are probably only voting to seem active, etc.

Wall-E claimed not to be lovers with Ace, and I'll tell you right now I am not Wall-E's lover. So if that were the scum team, Wall-E would have to claim to be lovers with Tenchi. However that would make no sense as they have publicly argued and would be unable to explain that as lover behavior.

I'm treating this as a regular game, finding regular scum tells.
I'm not trying to find pairings this early in the game.
Hell, I doubt if the mafia have even acknowleged each other in the game yet.
I said my suspicions of who could be scum, not who are partners.

[Tenchi]

mikek: Can you please summarize your case against Wall-E, if there is one?
Wall-E: Can you please summarize your case against mikek, if there is one?

(Link backs would be awesome, but I suggest filtering out stuff that has been done already, or adding stuff that need be added.)

I am still waiting for stuff from Looker and Jazzmyn.

[Tenchi]

Even if you stayed voting zwetschenwasser, it would have the same effect.
Lynching zwetschenwasser would obviously take his partner down with him,
so switching votes had no meaning to it whatsoever.
People that did switch their votes are probably only voting to seem active, etc.

The timeline was this

1. Zwet was suspicious early on
2. People voted for Zwet
3. Then I noticed Archon was suspicious
4. Archon claimed lovers with Zwet
5. Some people "checked" my case on Archon and it "made sense" that they could be scum together
6. The voters switched to make a lynch happen

(Note the quotation marks on 5. I am still waiting on the secondary reasons from Jazz and Looker.)

I don't think people are suspicious on changing their votes from Zwet to Archon. However, how they "checked" the case is what I am still waiting for.

[mikek]

Why Wall-E is scum.

I'm not going to do a PBPA because they are very time consuming both to create and for you guys to read, and I find they are usually unpersuasive. Instead I'll point out large scummy things I've seen in Wall-E's play that have lead me to the conclusion that he is scum.

First of all, some general patterns.

Wall-E posted a lot of fluffy posts

, especially early on. I'll not be addressing those individually, but I will note that posting fluff increases your apparent activity without actually helping to scumhunt.

Wall-E moved his vote around erratically

.

Here's a listing of his vote pattern:

Post 47: Tenchi - Agrees with Pie and puts Tenchi on three votes.
Post 73: Tenchi - Revotes? To look more active?
Post 101: Zwet - "I like the zwet idea", bandwagoning.
Post 198: Zwet - Revote again.. and again repeating others' reasoning.
Post 204: Tenchi - No reason given.
Post 239: Archon - Calls archon super-nervous after he claims.
Post 248: Zwet - Moves his vote in response to fakeclaim. Pretends he can't tell zwet is being facetious..
Post 291: Tenchi - Now he claims he reads Archon town and votes Tenchi for pushing on Archon. No reasons.
Post 321: Archon - because "Looker and I are polygamists pushing a mislynch". WTF? In the same post he questions why Looker is voting Archon.
Post 364: Unvote - "Nothing to add".
Post 368: mikek - "Guys, this game is over. Mikek is the scum, and he's just lost for his team." He has still not explained this vote.
Post 462: Unvote - After claiming the game is over and fabricating a spurious case on me, he abruptly withdraws his vote.

Early on he was pinging his vote about between Tenchi and Zwet/Archon.

When Archon claimed, he voted for him. He then voted Tenchi for pushing a case on Archon (when Wall-E himself had just been voting Archon!). Then he votes Archon and fakeclaims without reasoning to "fish for reactions". He never explains what reactions he was looking for, or found. I'm not sure what reaction he expected other than "WTF are you voting for someone you said was town, without giving reasons?".

After this he unvotes (apparently bored of trying to make something stick to either of those two) and votes me, claiming the game is over. He doesn't explain this at all, but eventually posts a PBPA that is totally unconvincing. Once that's dismissed he retracts his vote. His eventual explanation for his vote was that he found speculating about pairings to be a scumtell, but now realized this was wrong. That makes no sense. Why would he declare "the game is over" if he found a mild scumtell? This is still unexplained, and he just ignores requests for explanation.

Wall-E is frequently evasive.

As noted above, he voted frequently without giving reasons, and when pressed for reasons his given explanations rarely added up. He often just flat out ignores questions. Particularly egregious is post 368. This took ages for an explanation, and when it came it made no sense. He has just ignored further comments on this issue.

He seems to like starting new conversations, rather than actually drawing any firm conclusions or giving clear reasoning. For example, when I asked for specific explanation of post 368, he decided to make a PBPA analysis on me instead. He was probably hoping to change the subject and distract from having to explain. There's also this "NOT claim" circle thing we did which was his idea. The idea was unexplained, nobody but him knows what we're going to get out of it, and all he's done with the finished data so far is ask me to re-iterate my NOT-claim. Prediction: Nothing much will come of this NOT-claim thing and Wall-E will try to change the subject again.

Now to highlight specific events that raised an eyebrow.

Wall-E's "misunderstanding" about the game set-up looks insincere

. It would make no sense at all to have night kills in this set-up, the game would be won or lost on day 1. I find it hard to believe he could make this mistake. At the time I accepted it, thinking to myself that his not knowing how the scum operate is a pretty strong town tell. Now, I think this tell was fabricated. It seems implausible to me that he could actually misunderstand the game the way he did, so it was faked. Only scum would have reason to fake that.

The Wall-E/Looker claim business.

Reading this with fresh eyes, this could have been staged to make us conclude that they are not lovers. When I first saw this exchange, all I drew from it was that Looker and Wall-E could not be lovers. But what I didn't notice was that if they were scum together, the could each have another player to claim as a lover, while taking advantage of this large distancing effort of making clear they are not going to claim one another as lovers.

Post 368

. Talked about this above, but I think it bears repeating: Wall-E has refused to explain this post, and given a false explanation for it.

Bullshit PBPA

to distract from post 368. Reading the PBPA it was obvious to me that he had not noticed any of these things and drawn a conclusion from them, he had started with a conclusion he wanted to find evidence for and gone scraping for it. In the end it was so weak and easily refuted I'm surprised he bothered posting it. Surprised that is until I realised it was actually made to distract from his inexplicable post 368 and make it look as though he had his reasons.

Inconsistency over claiming

. He said he found it very suspicious that I was "pushing for massclaim". I was never pushing for a massclaim until later in the game, when it would help town most. He also said he thinks Archon very likely town, and Archon was more in favour of massclaim, and earlier, than me! Inconsistent. He's also now had us do a NOT-claim each. If a full claim:

will give the scum a ton of information. It will give us zero, but lock the scum into their claims, which they undoubtedly have already set-up.

... then how can it be that a partial claim will help? If a full claim gives ZERO information to us, a partial claim has to give even less. I think Wall-E has two reasons for asking us to do this: to distract us and to change the subject, and also to get scum enough information to deduce the lover pairs, without telling us too much of use.

Finally, what I saw as a fairly big

scum slip

he made while trying to fabricate a PBPA on me:

Despite all the scummy things I've done - voting with no justification, declaring one claimed lover scum and his partner town, throwing an accusation on mikek with no real explaination - he fails to even basically scumhunt by directly addressing me with a single question.

Unprovoked description of your own play as scummy is hella scummy.

[zwetschenwasser]

Vote: Wall-e

[Looker]

I am still waiting for stuff from Looker and Jazzmyn.

Stuff, you speak of stuff. Of what stuff are you speaking?

I am still waiting on the secondary reasons from Jazz and Looker.)

Secondary? What was wrong with the first?

The Wall-E/Looker claim business.

Reading this with fresh eyes, this could have been staged to make us conclude that they are not lovers. When I first saw this exchange, all I drew from it was that Looker and Wall-E could not be lovers. But what I didn't notice was that if they were scum together, the could each have another player to claim as a lover, while taking advantage of this large distancing effort of making clear they are not going to claim one another as lovers.

My opinion remains that Wall-E sucks at jokes and involuntary involving impartial participants. Boo, not funny.

Vote: Wall-e

"Makes sense" (note the quotation marks) to me

[zwetschenwasser]

You don't read very carefully, do you?

[AceMarksman]

hey guys, I was planning on posting sometime today, but I just got in from an airshow (off topic: the blue angels are AMAZING!). I'll catch up tomorrow.

[zwetschenwasser]