Mini 774: Case Closed Mafia (One Truth Prevails!)

[Battousai]

I believe pushing a case, by altering the plan of attack to garner more support, is not scummy.

Who are you to tell me otherwise??

[Korlash]

I think this is one of the biggest things I can highlight in your last post....

Funny... seems to be the only thing you bothered to highlight... I just think you are being too liberal on the use of the word "things" is all.

Your admittance to having me lynched by whatever method is necessary for you to garner support from.

Yup. I think you will personally be the biggest reason we lose in a good number of situations that may or may not occur in the future. I will not sit by and allow you to survive thusly allowing these futre situations the chance to occur by allowing a number of people to sit by with the misconseption you may be "town"...

1.

After my claim, you went on a quest to have me lynched because if I'm vanilla town, and left alive, a PR might, just might be either mis-lynched or NK'd.

2.

At one point, I was resigned to being lynched, because this argument was presented by others, and at the time, some I thought more townie than others.

3.

Now... we've had a lot of discussion about this since, and the fact there is a chance to lynch scum, which is what Town should be doing, you have gone on to rant about me being lynched since the replacements entered the fray with their views. Those same players, along with others who have dropped their votes along the way, have seen me more townish than I had been.

4.

You also admitted to tunnelling me since thos same posts were posted.

5.

Now you are saying I should be lynched because Im scum???

6.

This is something scum would do, trying to mislynch by whatever means are possible.
And if you are town, then this is quite silly what you are trying to achieve, the most obvious reason being that you will be targetted if my lynch came about.

1. Did I? I thought I was a big anti-supporter of the "lynch you becuase you are vanilla" campaign. Can you show me where I "went on this quest" please.

2. You having been acceptant to your lynch is another reason you will be under suspicion in the future. Although it's hardly as big a deal as the claim so I'm just going to stick with that.

3. I'm pretty sure I was trying to get you lynched even before the replacements came in... And um, the fact people have seen you as more townish is kinda the reason I'm doing this whole thing. If everyone thought you were scum I kinda wouldn't have to... I just really don't get what your point in regards to this. Are you trying to argue you are town becuase other people think you are?

4. ... Where did I admit to tunneling you again? Can you please actually post where, maybe some explination as to how what I said is some form of admittance, and perhaps a quote or two would be nice as well. Thanks in advance.

5. ... That's kinda what you do with scum...

6. And no, town should try to get the person they want lynched lynched by any means short of misconstruding facts and making shit up. I have done neither. I am guilty of speculation, paranoia, pre-caution, puncuation, illiteration, and puppies but non of those make me scum. And it is not silly for town to try to get the person they think is scum lynched. If no town did that then scum would always win. Anyone who is not willing to fight for what they believe will be walked on in this game. Besides, any person who doesn't truely believe what he is arguing is the right thing and whoever he is arguing with is an idiot is going to lose. I believe you need to die, I believe anyone calling you town or arguing you should be left alive is an idiot, and I will do wahtever I can in my power short of falsifying facts to see you hang.

I dont think your silly, I think your being inherently scummy...

I'm inherently scummy for thinking you are scum and pushing for your lynch? So... is it just me or would anyone who attacks you be "inherently scummy?"

When I was on the chopping block, your posting was steady and deliberate, I feel.
Now that my lynch has become "less-inevitable" you are really trying to have it re-ignited, by whichever argument you deem necessary. Its become more desperate as time has passed, culminating in you wanting me lynched as town, and now as scum, fundamentally starting from very weak cases by M13, then SC.

... Seeing as how you yourself had resolved to being lynched off M13 and SC's case they can't have been weak. that's a contradiction from you right there. Their case was so good you yourself agreed to lynch you... I mean... that kinda proves right there their case had to be super freaking awesome.

Can you show me where my case has become "more desperate" instead of just saying it without backing it up.

and I believe you have your order wrong, I wanted you lynched as scum via the fakeclaim, then I argued that if you were town you needed to be lynched as early as possible (a.k.a today) not BECAUSE you may be town, just in case that is what you were trying to push there.

I believe M13's case is weak... as was SC's, as is Korlash's...
Who are you, to tell me otherwise??

Let's ask another supporter of the Fire lynch, Fire. Fire, seeing as how you were swayed by M13's case what are you feelings now on Fire calling that case weak? are you upset at this person calling M13's case weak when he himself thought it was good enough to lynch himself? Would you call him a hypocrite or would we focus on his general lack of backing up his accusations on things?

I'm looking forward to see if I can actually get Fire to attack himself at somepoint here. It's exciting.

Now, if Korlash believed me to be scum, why push a case based on me being town???

Well I think the fact that I was arguing potential loss of game and at the very minimum wasted time and wasted power role usage should be enough of a reason.

But probably on a more wider scale I would aruge I pushed it becuase I have no 100% assurance are in fact scum, so to ignore the possibility of you being town would be me shirking my townie duties. Lucky for me, the hypoteticals of you being town require you to be lynched as well. Kinda makes pushing the case easy.

Surely, pushing a case on someone being scum would be the best option, no??

Which I did as well. Are you saying here that as I pushed the fact that if town you needed to be lynched today I didn't coment on the scummy things you were also doing? I haven't gone back and reread it but I find it hard to beleive I would be pushing your lynch and comepltely ignoring the scum aspect of it. I'd like for you to comit to actually accusing me of it before I waste my time though. If I'm going to go back and highlight all my accusations of you revolving around you being scum I want to then be able to accuse you of willingly ignoring them in an effort to twist my case.

So I ask again, is that what you are accusing me of? *brings out tape recorder* ...

Seriously man I've been calling you scum for a while now.

He didn't have a case for me being scum, otherwise we'd have seen it first.
He's been trying to get me "policy lynched" for pages and pages now.
Again.. Bullshit.

*cough*

My opinion on the claim so far is kinda null. ignoring the main evidence I see against it and without being able to ruminate on the flavor yet I can't really say for certain. I can tell you in Death Note Gorrad used an inane character like this and choose to ignore a more prominent one in the set-up. However the main thing to note is the inane character in that set-up was given a power, where-as in this one he claims vanilla. As far as the role goes, Vivian Kudo was not one of the top 10 people I would have guessed to be in this set-up.

And I was kinda hoping to gain something from the flavor but I can't really. it's completely different from mine but that doesn't prove anything. Does anyone else know if Gorrad is using "shinichi" or Jimmy? And the "With the investigation skills I've learned from my husband blah blah" just doesn't sound like something I would expect gorrad to write. Which again doesn't prove anything... still... I find it odd to use "investigation skills you've learned from your husband" instead of focusing on her own skills. I mean sure she's a mster of disguise which isn't all that great for finding the bad guys but I mean why the heck make her a role if you're not going to make it about her?

I can't believe I missed that... Wow... I can;t believe Gorrad would use both English and Japanese versions int he same PM, I definitly can't see him using different versions of Jimmy for PMs either.

Sadly based entirely on that I'm ready to vote him but I don't want to until I have contributed something more then I already have.

This right here is my first real attack on you involving your claim. It ends in me disbelieveing your claim is real, thusly calling you lying scum. It is based entirely around your claiming being a lie, thus my first attack, case, point, whatever against you is focused on you as scum. So the first thing you did see was me calling you scum.

It's also a good point to mention my next post:

I find it funny he would actually say "Here is a link where I found all this stuff" which is the exact thing scum do when they make up fake theme claims. Now if he is town, i can understand why he wouldn't want to quote Gorrad word for word sure, but we can't let him live now.

We asked him to claim flavor, and he admits to giving us stuff he pulled off a Wiki. I'm all for paraphrasing, but that's just too rediculus to fathom. To be honest as well I had to look my role up too but if asked to paraphrase I won't pull stuff from the wiki, I'll just say my PM in a different way.

I am a little with Miller int he sense it's so crazy it just might be true but i can't endorse letting him live after this... I mean I'll never fully trust his claim anymore, and I do find it should be policy to lynch people who make a bad claim and then spend a few more posts backtracking to fix the holes...

It both adds to evidence I have your claim is false and marks the first time I pushed any thing remotely close to "policy" against you. So... I was pushing the "you need to be lyched TODAY" aspect even BEFORE your wagon disipated... I mean that kinda shoots down half your arguments against me right there. I did not "desperitely" start pushing you needing to be lynched after your wagon died down, I started long before that.

Who's bullshit now?... Wait no... that makes no sense... Who's... running with the... bulls with... gaw forget it... <.<

[Korlash]

1.

After my claim, you went on a quest to have me lynched because if I'm vanilla town, and left alive, a PR might, just might be either mis-lynched or NK'd.

2.

At one point, I was resigned to being lynched, because this argument was presented by others, and at the time, some I thought more townie than others.

3.

Now... we've had a lot of discussion about this since, and the fact there is a chance to lynch scum, which is what Town should be doing, you have gone on to rant about me being lynched since the replacements entered the fray with their views. Those same players, along with others who have dropped their votes along the way, have seen me more townish than I had been.

4.

You also admitted to tunnelling me since thos same posts were posted.

5.

Now you are saying I should be lynched because Im scum???

6.

This is something scum would do, trying to mislynch by whatever means are possible.
And if you are town, then this is quite silly what you are trying to achieve, the most obvious reason being that you will be targetted if my lynch came about.

1. Did I? I thought I was a big anti-supporter of the "lynch you becuase you are vanilla" campaign. Can you show me where I "went on this quest" please.

2. You having been acceptant to your lynch is another reason you will be under suspicion in the future. Although it's hardly as big a deal as the claim so I'm just going to stick with that.

3. I'm pretty sure I was trying to get you lynched even before the replacements came in... And um, the fact people have seen you as more townish is kinda the reason I'm doing this whole thing. If everyone thought you were scum I kinda wouldn't have to... I just really don't get what your point in regards to this. Are you trying to argue you are town becuase other people think you are?

4. ... Where did I admit to tunneling you again? Can you please actually post where, maybe some explination as to how what I said is some form of admittance, and perhaps a quote or two would be nice as well. Thanks in advance.

5. ... That's kinda what you do with scum...

6. And no, town should try to get the person they want lynched lynched by any means short of misconstruding facts and making shit up. I have done neither. I am guilty of speculation, paranoia, pre-caution, puncuation, illiteration, and puppies but non of those make me scum. And it is not silly for town to try to get the person they think is scum lynched. If no town did that then scum would always win. Anyone who is not willing to fight for what they believe will be walked on in this game. Besides, any person who doesn't truely believe what he is arguing is the right thing and whoever he is arguing with is an idiot is going to lose. I believe you need to die, I believe anyone calling you town or arguing you should be left alive is an idiot, and I will do wahtever I can in my power short of falsifying facts to see you hang.

I dont think your silly, I think your being inherently scummy...

I'm inherently scummy for thinking you are scum and pushing for your lynch? So... is it just me or would anyone who attacks you be "inherently scummy?"

Fixed... Got too focused on the bolding... missed the stupid end quote...

[alexhans]

@Korlash: I understand your point of lynching Fire(Although I consider him town and would prefer to lynch someone I consider Scum), As I said to battou. But I don't undestand why we must rush it.
You're giving to much emphasis in the info we will gain when he flips... I don't think it's gonna make us find scum that easy.
How is he detrimental to the town?

Have you even given a point why sharing the "lists" right before a lynch is so much more important then sharing it at the start of day 2

If you're scum andyou start at day 2 you can choose from alive people and conviniently push towards who you want lynched. If you say who you think is scum before you won't be able to change so easyly without explaining. Why do you refuse to say who you suspect? This is mafia! It's our job.

By your style we should be anti town along the day so we don't get nightkilled... That's what Wall-e did on a game... act scummy to avoid nightkill. He was lynched If you must take one for the team. Then do it. Because if your suspicions follow go down to your grave then it's useless for town if you were right.

I, as Fire, feel you're too tunnel-visioned.

... *sigh* No scum want to appear pro-town. saying "I've been helping out town for two weeks" is more likely done by scum then saying "If you are town you need to be lynched today" and whatever else people think I said that was scummy.

Rephrase please

This is because your wagon had lost some support, some people were calling you town, and that new guy said you looked sincere or whatever. I've been most concerned with trying to get your wagonback up to full speed and so I've been going after those thoughts and not the fact your claim is BS. Although granted i should have brought that up again earlier, for that it is my bad.

And sorry nw guy, not time to look up your name but you know who you are. This is not meant to be insulting I'm just super short on time and am trying to bust this out ASAP before I leave.

It's ok. ALEXHANS! I sparked new discussion though. If Fire was lynched just when I arrived there would only have been Fire vs Everyone (Almost, I tend to use everyone often, you see) and nothing else.

I don't think discussion is bad, by the way. I feel that discussion from everybody is always good. NO matter if it's scum or town. It's registered. So it definetly can let scum-tells show.
The only discussion that might not be good is when you know or suspect someone to be a PR and say it out in the open. That's uncool.

2. You having been acceptant to your lynch is another reason you will be under suspicion in the future. Although it's hardly as big a deal as the claim so I'm just going to stick with that.

Haven't you ever seen town accept their lynch? Scum would be more desperate to survive.

... Seeing as how you yourself had resolved to being lynched off M13 and SC's case they can't have been weak. that's a contradiction from you right there. Their case was so good you yourself agreed to lynch you... I mean... that kinda proves right there their case had to be super freaking awesome.

He actually resigned to the fact that he wouldn't be lynched. That's different.
------------
@Kairyuu:

@alexhans: I'm too lazy to update my wiki. The semantics thing is barely valid any more. Also, as I said, prom is tonight, and I'll be out until probably 3 or 4 am with that, so you get to deal with me not doing a ful read until then.

Oh! but it's there and you just voted based on a semantics thing... So.... you vote but don't full read? Specially since you won't be able to post soon? How's that pro-town?

@Strangercoug: I'll respond fully to your points when I have some more time. I'm pretty much just doing quick checking in posts in all of my games and then leaving again.

just Checking your posts? You voted for him... that's not a check up. That's pretty serious.
-------
@Battou:

I think the only reason some people (forgot who all is on the wagon right now) are voting Korlash is because he is being more outspoken about it, which, imo, is more townie.

I agree. I consider it a null tell.

I actually forget what Alex was voting me for... And what's his name used my inactivity as a reason. So neither of them are even voting me mainly for what I've been saying here.

I totally forgot Pacman was voting you

unvote

he voted in 27 agreeing with your self vote... I don't know if it's a joke or he votes you because he don't like self voters.

M13's case wasn't weak...

That's your opinion. I've posted a lot of things giving examples of why I found millar inconsistent and making a bad case on Fire.
--------
@Fire: You seriously believe Korlash is scum? Isn't your vote a grudge?
err... I guess you answered...

I dont think your silly, I think your being inherently scummy...
When I was on the chopping block, your posting was steady and deliberate, I feel.
Now that my lynch has become "less-inevitable" you are really trying to have it re-ignited, by whichever argument you deem necessary. Its become more desperate as time has passed, culminating in you wanting me lynched as town, and now as scum, fundamentally starting from very weak cases by M13, then SC

---------------

i don't need to cover my ass. What I am doing is for the benefit of the town as a whole, I'm like the hero of a movie who knows there's a plot to assassinate the president but no one believes me and everyone thinks my brother was a terorist and... wait... this is the plot of Eagle Eye... hmmm...

LOL. This is going to my wiki quotes.

@everyone: Regarding the English or japanese thing... Does anyone else has english names in their role? Mine sounds japanese. Do you have a list of english/japanese name relation? I want to see if there's a translation in the english version or not.

[Kairyuu]

@alexhans:

Oh! but it's there and you just voted based on a semantics thing... So.... you vote but don't full read? Specially since you won't be able to post soon? How's that pro-town?

Did I say that it was totally invalid? No. I didn't. I said barely valid, meaning that I rarely use it anymore. Whoohoo.

Also, as to the second bit, learn to read. I said that I had less than an hour to read the whole thread and post. You try pulling off a full read of this game in that amount of time.

just Checking your posts? You voted for him... that's not a check up. That's pretty serious.

Again, learn to read. In THAT POST. The one you QUOTED, I was checking in on the thread because I didn't have much time. Do not misrep me. I voted him in a completely different post.

unvote

vote: alexhans

Misrep does not suit you, scum.

[alexhans]

Did I say that it was totally invalid? No. I didn't. I said barely valid, meaning that I rarely use it anymore. Whoohoo.

Ok. But you used a semantics argument to support a poor quick vote. Regardless of what you or the wiki say.

Also, as to the second bit, learn to read. I said that I had less than an hour to read the whole thread and post. You try pulling off a full read of this game in that amount of time.

Then why feel the need to vote without all the facts?

Again, learn to read. In THAT POST. The one you QUOTED, I was checking in on the thread because I didn't have much time. Do not misrep me. I voted him in a completely different post.

But what I'm saying is that you voted for SC (410) without having read the whole game and without a case but a little semantic detail you think is scummy. Then you mentioned me as SCUM (and tell me if it doesn't give the impression that you're very sure) but didn't explained why. Saying that there were too many reasons to count:

alexhans is scum too. Too many reasons to count, but I'm too lazy to dig them up right now. Maybe Saturday (prom is tommorrow, so you get nothing then).

Now you vote me for, apparently, misreping you...

unvote

vote: alexhans

Misrep does not suit you, scum.

This is the second time you've called me scum... But you don't give the reasons that you were supposed to give... That was all you had against SC? You switch your vote solely because of my last post?

[Kairyuu]

@alexhans:

Also, I do generally back things I say up with evidence. Lots of it. Pages and pages sometimes. However, this game was a pain in the ass to read in the hour I had to catch up and post before going to bed last night, so I skimmed instead. I'll probably just go with it for a bit, and then do a full reread once I have some more time on my hands in a few days.

That adresses all of your points. When I have more than a few minutes at a time to spend here then you get your reread. Until then you get to deal with me doing things as I go.

[alexhans]

@alexhans:

Also, I do generally back things I say up with evidence. Lots of it. Pages and pages sometimes. However, this game was a pain in the ass to read in the hour I had to catch up and post before going to bed last night, so I skimmed instead. I'll probably just go with it for a bit, and then do a full reread once I have some more time on my hands in a few days.

That adresses all of your points. When I have more than a few minutes at a time to spend here then you get your reread. Until then you get to deal with me doing things as I go.

I don't think it does...

That was all you had against SC? You switch your vote solely because of my last post?

You can answer these...

Anyway, I'm gonna let you do your reread and tell me everything that has gone through your mind to act like you did.

Hope you had fun in the prom...

[Battousai]

Theres too much WIFOM for me to be allowed to live now, and NOT be lynched later.

If you are town you need to be lynched now. Otherwise, if you survive until LYLO or any other endgame scenario, you will probably either be one of the top two candidates or the most likely candidate by yourself. Either way you would then have a good chance of being the lynch, and if town, would lose us the game.

You are basing this ridiculous theory on me being scum right now, and continuing to be scum right the way through the game, presumably, if Im left alive that long after the aforementioned continuing scum-like actions.
You say that if I'm town, I need to die???? WTF?
Earlier in the game I was being battered by almost everyone in the game, so drawing connections will be quite easy if I flipped town, thats a BS reason, end of.
Your case on me seems to be with the claim Ive given, you've continually said I need to be lynched, culminating in "If I'm Town, you need to be lynched". THAT alone should see you higher in the spotlight, as we are still in a healthy position to catch scum before D1 ends. You want this day to end quicker than anyone else, and your reluctance to discuss, calling it anti-town along the way, makes you scummier too. SC has done this to a lesser extent than you, but has backed off after the posts Ive made, joined with most of the replacements posts. For these reasons then, I must...
UNVOTE: VOTE: Korlash.

Started rereading these last few pages on my off day. I found this and thought it is interesting. Contradiction? Possibly. Firestarter admits that if he is left alive today, he will be lynched later. That, with claiming vanilla townie, means that he forsees his mislynch in the future. Now when Korlash wants him lynched because if Fire is town, him being around would result in being mislynched at an inappropriate time (end game), Fire uses it in his case against him.

Korlash thought the same thing Fire did, but now the wagon has stalled, Fire doesn't see his lynch as inevitable and is now fighting to stay alive (which some has called what scum would do, by saying town would give up).

[alexhans]

So... Battou... Do you think he is scum? Or just want him lynched for your gameplay reason? (meaning that he would be probably lynched later on)

I think his situation was desperate and he had given up trying to survive. Now, if he sees he has some hope... why does he have to curl up and die? I don't understand how that's supposed to be scummy.

[StrangerCoug]

Firestarter admits that if he is left alive today, he will be lynched later. That, with claiming vanilla townie, means that he forsees his mislynch in the future. Now when Korlash wants him lynched because if Fire is town, him being around would result in being mislynched at an inappropriate time (end game), Fire uses it in his case against him.

*brain explodes*

[alexhans]

So? ...

SC... how's that post helpful? How can you accuse someone of posting fluff with that kind of posts?

[StrangerCoug]

I'm failing to understand what Battousai is talking about.

[alexhans]

Well... You could have written that in the first place...

[Lindisfarne]

Sorry folks, new person starting at work, and I'm having to pull a few doubles until they start on monday, as such, I'll be V/LA until monday afternoon.

[Korlash]

@Korlash: I understand your point of lynching Fire(Although I consider him town and would prefer to lynch someone I consider Scum), As I said to battou. But I don't undestand why we must rush it.
You're giving to much emphasis in the info we will gain when he flips... I don't think it's gonna make us find scum that easy.
How is he detrimental to the town?

Well at first I just didn't see the point in the extra discussion. We found someone I think is scum who regardless of alignment should be lynched today anyways. Why give him and the other scum the chance to set up false info. Once we have found scum it is perfectly logical to end the day.

And I haven't been giving too much emphasis on the info... that has kinda been a secondary point. It's the benefit we will gain if he flips town. I'm not in anyway saying lynch him because of this info, but it does fall under the "pro" category.

Also he is detremental because he will always be under suspicion. Today, tomorrow, the next day. Every day he is alive he will distract the town. Eventually, if he survives until edgame, he will probably be the person lynched, if town he not only has thusly lost us the game but has wasted every day up til that point of discussion and talk that could have been used to out real scum. Of course if he is scum we won't lose, but damnit that just means we should have lynched him DAY 1 instead of endgame.

Now I could be wrong. This is all based on my experience and future speculation, however I believe I am right and so I must argue my heart out to get my point heard and Fire lynched. If you disagree with me on him being a danger to th town and you truely believe him to be town then fine, there is nothing I can do to convinse you short of continual scum hunting against him. But if we ever make it to endgame and he is still alive... 10 to 1 odds what I say comes to fruition...

If you're scum andyou start at day 2 you can choose from alive people and conviniently push towards who you want lynched. If you say who you think is scum before you won't be able to change so easyly without explaining. Why do you refuse to say who you suspect? This is mafia! It's our job.

says who. Mafia can change their lists based on Night results as equally as we can. They list players A, B, and C as thei top three. So they kill player B and then change their list to Players D, C, and A based off that night kill. That is a complete 180 on their list and there is no way to tell that flip from an honest town flip.

Cementing scum to a list now is hardly worth it. There is an equal if not greater chance to out scum who post lists at the start of day 2 then there is catching scum who post lists at the end of day 1. I'm not going to say how though becuase if I do they become moot. Whether you trust and believe me on this I don't care. After i catch the scum during day 2 off their lists while you are still trying to figure out what your day 1 lists mean I'll try to keep my laughing to a minimum.

Hmmm... i seem to remember someone telling me something about counting my chickens... hmmm... Oh well I forget whatever it meant... 3...4...5...

And I do not refuse to say who I suspect, I refuse to everyone posting a list right before night. Ask me who I suspect, I suspect Fire. I think he is scum and needs to be lynched.

As far as who else, no one else has really sparked anything for me. I still have my suspicions about Issac but I hardly have anything resembeling a line of attack. i never really had any good thoughts about Pacman but you aren't seeming all that bad.

By your style we should be anti town along the day so we don't get nightkilled... That's what Wall-e did on a game... act scummy to avoid nightkill. He was lynched Sad If you must take one for the team. Then do it. Because if your suspicions follow go down to your grave then it's useless for town if you were right.

... By my style? and no good townie's suspicions follow him to the grave. You seem to think posting a list is the only way to get your suspicions out. But it's not. I could probably give a semi-accurate scum list for everyone in this game if I had the time, which I don't... You read what a player posts and how they interact with otherrs and you can get a pretty good idea of how they feel. All we lose are "gut feelings" which are hardly helpful anyways. Not a big loss...

I, as Fire, feel you're too tunnel-visioned.

Oh? So I had a period of inactivity and when I come back pushing a lynch I auto become tunneling? No. I appear to be tunneling simply because everyting going on right now revolves around fire. Me and him have become the near most active, so half of my posts deal soley with him just becuase no one else had posted. I have not ignored you, or bat, or SC. I'm still watching Issac, and... yeah I haven't said a lot to the replacements but they just got here. I'm not tunneling becuase I am in no way shirking my responcibility as town toward every other player. I just have more to say about Fire right now.

Rephrase please

I shall do my best...

... *sigh* No... Scum want to appear pro-town. Saying "I've been helping out town for two weeks" is more likely done by scum tryng to appear pro-town, then saying "If you are town you need to be lynched today" which is a statement concerned more with the benefit of the town then making himself look pro-town.

That should be a little better to read and understand i think. And yes, I changed the implication of the last sentence to better make my point. As Fire had already discussed this with me I felt it important to simplify it.

It's ok. ALEXHANS! Wink I sparked new discussion though. If Fire was lynched just when I arrived there would only have been Fire vs Everyone (Almost, I tend to use everyone often, you see) and nothing else.

Really? I could have sworn it was Kair... You I know, him I didn't... Whatever, one of you said it...

I don't think discussion is bad, by the way. I feel that discussion from everybody is always good. NO matter if it's scum or town. It's registered. So it definetly can let scum-tells show.
The only discussion that might not be good is when you know or suspect someone to be a PR and say it out in the open. That's uncool.

It generally is good almost all the time. I haven't been trying to argue it isn't, simply that in this one specific situation ending the day is better then continueing to waste time. (The examples I posted were simply to try and explain that discussion does in fact have certain situations in where it can be bad, thusly helping to get your people in a mindset to accept what I was saying about today.)

As far as why ending the day is better then discussion right now, there have been a lot of reasons over the course of my argument. Some still apply, some have changed. But I still feel the day is fine to end right now as long as we lynch Fire and I do believe it SHOULD be done. (For those of you wanting examples of my reasons that have changed, take the replacement issue. I argued it would be easier to find them at night, obviously that is no longer a reason.)

Haven't you ever seen town accept their lynch? Scum would be more desperate to survive.

Yes, I have seen town accept their lynch. Almost as many times as I have seen scum accept it. Scum are more concerned with ending discussion then with surviving once they accept defeat. Town on the other hand, once accepting of their death, are more interested in grilling the people attacking them and getting their opinions heard. Fire gets points for both, but overall i find him to be more likely scum then town.

And of course the argument is different people will do different things in different situations regardless of alignment. I as scum will NEVER accept my lynch. Never. I will fight until the mod tells me to stop. BUt there are some scum who will self hammer. Two different playstyles for the same alignment.

He actually resigned to the fact that he wouldn't be lynched. That's different.

Where? i thought he was saying "lynch me at the end of the day but talk first" which is accepting BEING lynched, not not being lynched.

@everyone: Regarding the English or japanese thing... Does anyone else has english names in their role? Mine sounds japanese. Do you have a list of english/japanese name relation? I want to see if there's a translation in the english version or not.

search your guy on google and find him in any Case Closed Character wiki, as in the page on Wikipedia for example. It normally lists japanese names and english names. (i assume there may be some characters who have both.)

just Checking your posts? You voted for him... that's not a check up. That's pretty serious.

Kinda useless to check in on a thread if you're going to pass up doing important things no? I'd have to read his post itself on the subject, but checking in on a thread and voting isn't a bad thing really. If he had reason to vote it's better he did it then didn't. The longer you go without doing 'important things' the more you look like an active lurker. I'll see when I have time to check up on his vote in question.

That adresses all of your points. When I have more than a few minutes at a time to spend here then you get your reread. Until then you get to deal with me doing things as I go.

Probably not the best person to be asking this of you seeing as how my play this game has been but... I would like those "many reasons" that Alex is scum asap. Your lack of a full readup didn't prevent you from noticing those reasons, so it shouldn't prevent you from posting them.

Started rereading these last few pages on my off day. I found this and thought it is interesting. Contradiction? Possibly. Firestarter admits that if he is left alive today, he will be lynched later. That, with claiming vanilla townie, means that he forsees his mislynch in the future. Now when Korlash wants him lynched because if Fire is town, him being around would result in being mislynched at an inappropriate time (end game), Fire uses it in his case against him.

It is a good point to notice he himself said he should be lynched because of the WIFOM, which is pretty much the same thing as my points against him. Funny that he is calling me scum for it. Nicely done...

I think his situation was desperate and he had given up trying to survive. Now, if he sees he has some hope... why does he have to curl up and die? I don't understand how that's supposed to be scummy.

He doesn't have to curl up and die. He can fight, hell I would fight. It doesn't allow for him to contradict himself though. Both this new WIFOM quote Bat brought to light and his vagueness/refusal to cleafiy eal countradicting his call for extra discussion time. (Granted it's barely even a contradiction, but it still holds contradictive properties)

Point is, he doesn't have to curl up and die, that is not the scummy thing about him.

I'm failing to understand what Battousai is talking about.

Fire said he shouldn't be allowed to live because of the WIFOM it will create in the future. This is very similar to what I have been arguing, yet he is calling me scum for saying it. Doesn't that also make him scum for saying it?

[Firestarter]

As far as why ending the day is better then discussion right now, there have been a lot of reasons over the course of my argument. Some still apply, some have changed. But I still feel the day is fine to end right now as long as we lynch Fire and I do believe it SHOULD be done. (For those of you wanting examples of my reasons that have changed, take the replacement issue. I argued it would be easier to find them at night, obviously that is no longer a reason.)

Haven't you ever seen town accept their lynch? Scum would be more desperate to survive.

Yes, I have seen town accept their lynch. Almost as many times as I have seen scum accept it. Scum are more concerned with ending discussion then with surviving once they accept defeat. Town on the other hand, once accepting of their death, are more interested in grilling the people attacking them and getting their opinions heard. Fire gets points for both, but overall i find him to be more likely scum then town.

Your first point proves that you were wrong about eplacements being easier to find at night, yet you staunchly spoke of this many times in your case to see me lynched.

The 2nd one is stranger...

"Scum are more concerned with ending discussion than with surviving once they accept defeat"

Does this apply to me...??

Town on the other hand, once accepting of their death, are more interested in grilling the people attacking them and getting their opinions heard.

Does this apply to me..?

The answer to the first point is NO.
The answer to the second point is Yes.

Yet you say I get points for both.... How?
Did I end discussion after being resigned to being lynched?
Did I grill those attacking me and getting them to post?

_____________________

Now, unless I have not made myself clear, Ill repeat this for clarification...
At one stage in the game, almost anything I posted was being ignored or dismissed out of hand, this was because most players had a vote on me, I was L-1 at one stage.
And yes, I became resigned to being lynched.
But with the replacements coming into game, they've heartened me with their posts, and has re-ignited my want to remain in the game.
With the game still in D1, there is still a chance to find scum, rather than lynch a "resigned to being lynched vanilla townie", which was, what was happening at the time.
I was resigned to being lynched, but I never said I wanted to be out of the game.
Regarding the whole WIFOM issue if I was left alive...
At the beginning of this theory being introduced by Korlash and/or Bat, I seen the logic in it to some extent.
The basis of me being lynched was that I was claimed vanilla townie, and was the main push on me being lynched... Not that I was considered scum.

With the game still in D1, there is still a chance to find scum, rather than lynch a "resigned to being lynched vanilla townie", which was, what was happening at the time.

I wanted to help, at least in bringing out scum before being lynched, and SC's attacks on me after the replacements came in, looked really bad, he was pushing inconsistencies and lies, which has been now shot down.
I voted him for it, and he is still near the top of my pile.
Korlash has pushed my "being town needing to die" case, and has hit a brick wall.. Why? well, it should be evident...
Now he's calling me scum, and as far as I can see, he's using the roleclaim as the main point in his case, along with the ever more present Battousai. This Ive explained numerous times now, and should be easily referenced in my isolated posts.
Lets lynch him because he's town. Fail.
Lets lynch him because he's scum. Unbelievable.
*Me being scum based on the roleclaim, and future scenarios...
I dont think that lynching someone on future scenarios is a good thing, if it was, we'd kinda know how its gonna go from the outset, and not even bother taking part in the game... This is at the very least anti-town
He's already been shown to be wrong by saying replacements will be better found at night.. Thats aload of rubbish, it was just another reason to have my lynch pushed through quicker.

Korlash in the quoted parts of his posts atop of this post, back me up by his theory.
1. I did not want discussion to end after being resigned to being lynched.
2. I did attack/grill those wanting me lynched.

And as far as Bats play goes...
I dont like it one bit...
He seems to quote certain posts of mine, which have been discussed at certain points, and lets Korlash run with it, all by himself...
He then weighs in after being questioned about his activity, by me, that he has all sorts of stuff IRL to contend with, but at no point did he feel it a need to let the rest of us know this prior to being asked about it. We are not telepathic in this game, yet his post about being busy seems to attack my questioning of him.

Im now less sure about Korlash being scum, Battousai has come into my reckoning because of his playstyle.
This I will investigate into later.

[Firestarter]

Townie shouldn't be afraid to push a lynch on a person by themselves.

This is interesting in relation to the rest of this post... and to why I see Battousai as scum.

I don't vote in the random stage, but HIYA

Vote: Millar13

for taking an anti-town policy in order to help his scum play.

Battousai's post is voting M13 for taking an anti-town policy.
He then states...

Unvote

my random vote.
25– millar FOS's me for “applying tactics in RVS.” I don't see the merit in this FOS. I wasn't applying tactics,

I was just random voting him because he's helping his scum play by never voting in the RVS

Note the contradiction... he

"random voted him for not voting"???

I FOS M13 for his crap-logic.

-In reference to bandwagons are not good for town in D1 by Millar.
You think Millar is suspicious because he has a different ideal than you? Why is this indicative of scum?

From what I have read of Millar's posts, he feels D1 bandwagons are usually controlled by scum since there is so little information to go on.

Note that Battousai just makes a general statement, and does not commit to one side or the other regarding BW's on D1.
Instead he questions me about M13's crap-logic saying BW's are only driven by scum.
If Battousai questions me and not M13, isn't it likely he agrees with M13's stance on D1 BW's? That they are only driven by scum?

I agreed that the other players should at least post on what’s been happening here before anything else happens...

UNVOTE: millar13

MAJOR FoS: millar13

Note how Battousai does not comment on my continued suspicions of M13, leaving a Major FoS on him. It would be anti-town of me, or anyone else for that matter, to place a vote and leave it there after I had an agreement with another player to not take further action.

The this much later on...

Personally I do not BELIEVE D1 bandwagons are controlled by scum, but it is just my opinion, part of my mafia ideals. Now the key word in the whole thing is D1. He believes D1 bandwagons are controlled by scum, which could stem from personal experience, I do not know. You are suspicious of him for something he believes to be true.

Battousai in this post, agrees with my belief of D1 BW's, yet again he attacks me for being suspicious of M13's beliefs that aren't just in contradiction of my beliefs, but also his. He is trying to turn this debate on D1' BW's into a “personal mafia ideals" argument. The crux of this is clear in-game however, and that is to separate Pro-town behaviour and anti-town behaviour, scum obviously have different "Mafia ideals" to town, and a lot of the time, causing confusion is key. Battousai's logic is baffling at this stage, he appears to add more pressure to my lynching rather than focusing on scummy-behaviour that he admittedly does not agree with.
And again, its very tunnelling on me, considering the amount of posts that are made between most of Battousai's posts. He is ignoring everything else, while singling out me with his illogical behaviour/posts.

This taken from Battousai's 182...

Also, the rest of your case does stand up a bit.

He address's 5 points in my case on M13, in which I posted a lot of content.
Yet he merely dismisses it as "Not standing up a bit"... That’s a horrible way of dismissing a case, unlike the effort I put in refuting M13's and SC's cases. This is another anti-town statement imo. Instead of pointing out the flaws, he makes a generic statement on my case, you simply have to do more than this.

Also, did you post some critique on M13's case?

I did not post a critique of Millar's case.

The reason is because it was not directed at me,

and my vote is on you, so I have already have my stance on the subjected planted firmly in.

Yet he dismisses my case on M13, which in fact, has also got nothing to do with him {Rubbish reason not to read someone’s case, and anti-town}. Another inconsistency on Battousai's part.

Firestarter- "Logical reasons?? Why would you NOT read a case built on another player?
BTW, Town need to read these posts. End of."
Reading comprehension. You need to slow down and read everything correctly before posting. He didn't say he didn't read the case, but rather wouldn't analyze it the way you presented it (aka wall of text).

Battousai, not for the first time, calls me out on supposed "reading comprehension" or the lack of. The debate at this time was who started with the serious posts after the D1 RVS, then M13's case??. This has been discussed to death, and Battousai uses this as another "attack" or to add "pressure".

Other people claimed my vote was serious, but it was just random voting. I had a reason for it, but I wasn't trying to achieve anything from it.

Again, another contradiction here, Battousai says other claimed his vote was serious, he says it was random, but then says he had reason for it???

Firestarter concerning post 170:

The first serious post belongs to Battousai, 2nd belongs to millar13 and the 3rd belongs to Strangercoug.
millar13 overlooks Battousai's original post as the first serious post of the game, but accuses SC of this exclaiming it was a scum-tell. This is the first falsity. Why was Battousai's post overlooked in favour of SC's? Distancing/bussing of either comes to mind.

That is what you wrote, but what really happened was millar commented he didn't vote in the RVS, I voted him for it, Millar FOS'd me for voting him for it, SC asked why towards the FOS, and Millar explained. Millar never accuses SC of being scummy up to that point.... Which then lessens your case against him until you remark about millar saying rushing to a vote is bad, when a FOS is better.

Note that Battousai did not dispute my post here, he merely exclaims "That is what you wrote".. usually when someone posts this line, they follow it up with what actually happened. Battousai stated that what I posted, was in actual fact, what happened. M13 stating he doesn't vote in the RVS, is not the "first serious post of the game". Battousai's is.

Unvote

1. Since Firestarter claimed Vanilla, it would be best just to lynch him. If he is town, then the scum know he is not a power role, which then give them a better chance of hitting one.

2. While we wait, I think we should play the rest of today under the assumption we lynch Firestarter and he turned up vanilla townie. I will post tomorrow as it is getting late and I gotta get up early for my first class tomorrow.

1. Battousai says I’m best to be lynched, why doesn't he vote me/leave his vote on me then.
2. Again, why isn't your vote on me after you posted this?
And what else were you gonna do why you had me down as "The D1 lynch"? Because there is nothing else in what you've posted, regarding other players.
This is very non-committal, and awaiting thoughts/votes from other players before voting me.
I refer to this quote of Battousai's....

Townie shouldn't be afraid to push a lynch on a person by themselves.

My flavour is in the English version ala Jimmy over Shinichi. Looking at Firestarter's flavour, he uses the English version for the role name, but switches over to the Japanese version for the flavour...

Again, Battousai spots something that may be worrying from a townie pov, but just posts this, and does not back it up with a vote.
Instead, he lets someone else take up the mantle, in this instance, Korlash.
I refer to this quote of Battousai's....

Townie shouldn't be afraid to push a lynch on a person by themselves.

Regardless of whether your claim makes since, I will vote you. Why? You claimed vanilla townie. Whenever someone on the chopping blocks claims that on D1, my policy is to lynch them. The reason is because the scum now know Firestarter isn't a power role, which increases their chance to NK a power role if we lynch/out another role.

Again, no vote.....
I refer to this quote of Battousai's....

Townie shouldn't be afraid to push a lynch on a person by themselves.

We need to lynch Firestarter...... he claimed vanilla.

Again, no vote.....
I refer to this quote of Battousai's....

Townie shouldn't be afraid to push a lynch on a person by themselves.

This is D1, our best guess would only be a guess. There isn't a lot of information o go off of.

If we choose not to lynch Firestarter and say run up a wagon on millar, we could possibly out a power role or he'll claim vanilla. We then would probably lynch one of the two claimed vanilla players.
If there are 3 scum and both firestarter and millar are vanilla, that means when it comes to night the scum have a 1:7 chance of hitting a power role. It is best to lynch the Firestarter because it lessens the chance from 1:8 to 1:7 for the scum to find and kill a power role before they get to use their ability or if we run up a wagon on a power role, it almost guarantees their death unless there is a protective role. IMO, D1 you lynch the claimed vanilla.
Plus, more than likely we will end up lynching him later...

Clearly, Battousai wants me lynched because I claimed vanilla townie.
Posts stats about scum not hitting a PR, if I’m lynched, but neglects to post the alternative, that if we catch scum in D1, it lessens the scums numbers, and preserves a townie, which is what this lynching assumption is based off of.
The bolded part of his quote above is very interesting. He wants to proceed with my lynch without anything else, and based on his guess.
But yet gain, no vote.....
I refer to this quote of Battousai's....

Townie shouldn't be afraid to push a lynch on a person by themselves.

His flip gives us more information regardless of what direction the flip is. Obviously it would help more if he is indeed scum.

You didn't answer the question. The question was what information would be gained, not what flip would give us information.

This question has been asked many many times, M13, Korlash, Sc and Battousai clearly cannot back this up as to why its a good idea.
Yet Battousai pursues this further on another player?

I think we have waited long enough for the inactives to post/be replaced. The game is starting to die down which is worse.

Vote: Firestarter

Finally, Battousai places his vote on me, after all the non-committal nonsense beforehand, he sees my lynch dying down, and feels it necessary to speed things up now.
The fact he does not mention anything about the replacements/the replacements posts/thoughts is a reflection on the way he's tunnelled on me for the most part.

5 days is a long time to wait for a lynch. People get bored, interests go down, the game becomes less fun.

Battousai's input/posts go along way to adding to the said boredom/dying down interest/less fun.
After posting that he would treat me as being lynched, and to play the game as if I were lynched, he's done nothing of the sort. Nothing but continue with his tunnelling, and make infrequent non-committal posts for others to take up on.

Sajin- What are you suspicious of SC for? Don't say "I agree with Firestarter."

And why not say he agrees with Firestarter?
Korlash agreed with you?
You cannot put sanctions on players in this way.

The 2 main points I though firestarter had:
The quote [SC] saying no one suspected millar depending on firestarters flip. As I recall it was [SC] who theorized them as scumbuddys.

Also when [SC] pointed out the supposed contradiction: There was no contradiction.

I think [SC is] misrepresenting firestarter with the quotes provided.

Compare those to the case on firestarter brought by millar13 and others. You had your vote on firestarter at one point, IIRC. What has firestarter done to lessen your suspicion on him or do you think that what you have listed above is stronger than the one on Firestarter?

Clearly Battousai does not like the direction my supposed lynch is taking at this point.
With fresh impetus from the replacements, and previous cases on me being shot down, he then starts to question those taking their votes from me, without actually adding anything as to why I should be lynched.
In Korlash' case, he changed his method of attack once one let him down, but Battousai isn't doing anything to pressure my lynch, he's merely trying to pressure those who have unvoted me.

How?

he had 2 votes I had a fos. The person under pressure he referred to was likely himself, Freudian slip.

This is crap. I know Firestarter's case on me to be serious, but your case on me is a joke and can be summed up as you telling me "Yeah, whatever, scaredy cat." If you're going to vote me, at least present me with something worth defending like Firestarter did. Don't be skimping on scumhunting to see what you can get away with.

Unvote: alexhans
Vote: Sajin

sorry, I prefer shorter posts. I still explain stuff. Just because I don't write mafia essays does not make my few points less valid.

Yes, yes it does. It does if your points are vague.

What points are vague?
Again, pressurising those who believe scum lie elsewhere.

I find it weird that all this hate on Korlash has stayed solely on him. I mean, just about everything he has said that people are voting him for, I have already said. Notice I commented that Fire needs to die today, even if he is townie. Notice I never gave my scum list to Lin. That because I see no merit in it at this stage of the day.
I think the only reason some people (forgot who all is on the wagon right now) are voting Korlash is because he is being more outspoken about it, which, imo, is more townie.

This is the first post after Korlash & I debated for pages that I found something amiss with Battousai.
He indeed stated more or less what Korlash had been pining about for so long, but was only sowing the seeds, for someone else to post about.
Its at this point I was less sure about Korlash, hence this case.

Scum want more than anything else to lynch a townie, correct?
I didn't say I wanted to hang around for 2 weeks just so I could lynch someone, I wanted to stick around and help town after my inevitable lynch, as at that time, I requested the deadline based on me being lynched. Go back to the time I posted that, I did want the deadline to be reached, I was expecting to be lynched... I had NO hidden agenda, why as scum, would I post more content if my lynch was inevitable???

To appear more townie so as not to get lynched? Is it possible you, as scum, thought if you dragged out the day and added some posts that you could save yourself from being lynched?

Again, Battousai doesn't commit to anything here, he is merely making generic statements that may be true, but he doesn't try to back them up.
The fact he ignored Korlash similar post....

Oh and @ People voting me and/or plan on voting me in the near future:

Answer me why me, as scum, would work this hard to get Fire, as town, lynched?

Is another example of his tunnelling and scumminess.

The main reason is because I haven't been all to active. The main reason is because.... FINALS........

Having being called out on his infrequent posting by me, he comes across as attacking in his post about doing finals...
If your busy, that’s fair enough, but why did you only feel the need to post this now? After being called out on it?

M13's case wasn't weak...

Also, it is not scummy to try and get someone lynched by changing your method of attack to garner more support.

M13's case was weak, imo.
Battousai states, in so many words, that he's happy about the way Korlash is going about trying to get me lynched. Whether I’m town or scum.
For me, either both or one of them know my alignment, the push on me being lynched cannot be solely town driven, imho.
It seems to be without consideration of what everyone else has posted, and that is anti-town in my book. Everyday.

Right now its time to..

UNVOTE

...

What I’ve posted above gives me greater belief that Battousai is more scummier than Korlash.
Both could be, but I’m not sure with that.
Battousai is the catalyst for Korlash's attacks, and Battousai simply isn't doing enough in-game.
He's been happy for others to post cases, and attack after he has made his infrequent, non-committal posts here and there...

VOTE: Battousai

[StrangerCoug]

I'm failing to understand what Battousai is talking about.

Fire said he shouldn't be allowed to live because of the WIFOM it will create in the future. This is very similar to what I have been arguing, yet he is calling me scum for saying it. Doesn't that also make him scum for saying it?

I believe so. Makes sense now.

This is interesting in relation to the rest of this post... and to why I see Battousai as scum.

I don't vote in the random stage, but HIYA

Vote: Millar13

for taking an anti-town policy in order to help his scum play.

Battousai's post is voting M13 for taking an anti-town policy.
He then states...

Unvote

my random vote.
25– millar FOS's me for “applying tactics in RVS.” I don't see the merit in this FOS. I wasn't applying tactics,

I was just random voting him because he's helping his scum play by never voting in the RVS

Note the contradiction... he

"random voted him for not voting"???

By that same token, I should be yelled at for random voting afatchic for random voting me because it's something I do a lot, yet I don't think I've really been this game. The RVS argument I've been is regarding who ended it.

And if you think Battousai's random vote is scummy, then why didn't you vote him the first time it was brought up?

And while I'm questioning you, where is your response to the last sentence of #442?

[Firestarter]

1. And if you think Battousai's random vote is scummy, then why didn't you vote him the first time it was brought up?

2. And while I'm questioning you, where is your response to the last sentence of #442?

1. I was otherwise engaged with the now missing M13...
2. I did not consider it "as" scummy by itself.

Now..

Your thoughts on Battousai and my case on him, SC...

[Firestarter]

EBWOP

1. And if you think Battousai's random vote is scummy, then why didn't you vote him the first time it was brought up?

2. And while I'm questioning you, where is your response to the last sentence of #442?

1. I was otherwise engaged with the now missing M13... I did not consider it "as" scummy by itself.

2. You in isolation... 56, 59, 60... BTW.

Now..

Your thoughts on Battousai and my case on him, SC...

Also, calling me out for fluff, is hilarious.
Is this the level of scumhunting we should expect from you SC?

Also, so it doesn't get lost..
Your thoughts on Battousai and my case on him, SC...

[alexhans]

And if you think Battousai's random vote is scummy, then why didn't you vote him the first time it was brought up?

This is a lame question. Always. "Why didn't you say so before"? typical of wanting to dismiss a case instead of addressing it.

Look, Battou voted M13 for not voting in RVS (being anti town) and then M13 voted Battout for applying tactics. Korlash agreed that they were tactics. No one else disputed that it was a serious vote. After, when called upon it. Battou says it was not serious but a random vote. That way he is not pressured.

[StrangerCoug]

2. I did not consider it "as" scummy by itself.

You asked why all I was doing was posting fluff. By asking you in return how many and which of my posts of a recent subset were fluff, I was challenging your accusation. I don't intend to answer the original question until you give me evidence from those posts that I was doing so. As you still have not done so, it's giving me reason to believe that you know the accusation you made to be false.

Regarding my accusing you of fluff:

Um, lets see.. its bolded in my last post, and has something to do with being outspoken...

This is suggestive of not really answering the question, therefore being fluff.

I explained my "brain explodes" post as indicating that I did not understand Battousai. Your turn to explain the above.

And if you think Battousai's random vote is scummy, then why didn't you vote him the first time it was brought up?

This is a lame question. Always. "Why didn't you say so before"? typical of wanting to dismiss a case instead of addressing it.

Look, Battou voted M13 for not voting in RVS (being anti town) and then M13 voted Battout for applying tactics. Korlash agreed that they were tactics. No one else disputed that it was a serious vote. After, when called upon it. Battou says it was not serious but a random vote. That way he is not pressured.

I asked that kind of question because I thought the subject in question was dead and buried. Firestarter says he was concerned about the scummier millar13 than Battousai. Now, skimming past something important since the last couple of times you checked the thread can be debated, but I would argue that the sooner you realize you missed it, the less scummy. This is the first time Battousai's random vote has been discussed since... when again?

[Battousai]

Korlash-

search your guy on google and find him in any Case Closed Character wiki, as in the page on Wikipedia for example. It normally lists japanese names and english names. (i assume there may be some characters who have both.)

Why do you assume this? Especially after I noted how Fire's claim uses both, yet you thought it was suspicious then.

My flavor is in the English version ala Jimmy over Shinichi. Looking at Firestarter's flavor, he uses the English version for the role name, but switches over to the Japanese version for the flavor...

I can't believe I missed that... Wow... I can;t believe Gorrad would use both English and Japanese versions int he same PM, I definitly can't see him using different versions of Jimmy for PMs either.

Sadly based entirely on that I'm ready to vote him but I don't want to until I have contributed something more then I already have.

SC & Alex-

See Korlash's post


Alex-

You're confusing me...

"He actually resigned to the fact that he wouldn't be lynched. That's different."

"Haven't you ever seen town accept their lynch? Scum would be more desperate to survive."

I think the first one is a typo?? Other than that, it seems you are defending Fire on one issue, then when his position changes on that, you defend it the opposite way. When Fire was "resigned to being lynched", you say that is townie to do. Which would mean not resigning to being lynched is scummy (otherwise it would be a null tell). Now that Firestarter is not resigned to being lynch, you say something along the lines of "Why shouldn't a player not fight to not be lynched, why should they crawl up and die?" Doesn't that make the first thing scummy or at least a null tell?



Firestarter-

"Note the contradiction... he "random voted him for not voting"???"

How is that a contradiction? I random voted him, and my reason was that he didn't want to vote. How is that different from voting someone for, I don't know, just finishing a game containing an enemy to town, named Rage?

"Note that Battousai just makes a general statement, and does not commit to one side or the other regarding BW's on D1.
Instead he questions me about M13's crap-logic saying BW's are only driven by scum.
If Battousai questions me and not M13, isn't it likely he agrees with M13's stance on D1 BW's? That they are only driven by scum?"

I was defending Millar's right to believe that way and that it isn't scummy to believe it.

"He is ignoring everything else, while singling out me with his illogical behaviour/posts."

I believe the only people talking at this stage were you, firestarter, and people that agreed w/ you or agreed w/ millar. Also, it is ironic since you were focused on Millar this entire time.

"Not standing up a bit"

I said DOES not DOES NOT...

"Again, no vote....."

I gave my reason for the unvote. You want to know why it is different from yours on, what page 3? Simple, you were close to a lynch, millar wasn't.

"Again, no vote.....
I refer to this quote of Battousai's...."

Please tell me how saying we need to lynch Fire not pushing a lynch?

"Posts stats about scum not hitting a PR, if I’m lynched, but neglects to post the alternative, that if we catch scum in D1, it lessens the scums numbers, and preserves a townie, which is what this lynching assumption is based off of."

What would you, as an objective player, want- an outted powerrole and a scum lynch D1, or a scum lynch D2?

"This question has been asked many many times, M13, Korlash, Sc and Battousai clearly cannot back this up as to why its a good idea.
Yet Battousai pursues this further on another player?"

I never wanted you lynched for " a lot" of information. What the hell? I thought I was tunnelling on you. I guess I made a mistake and actually questioned someone other than Fire

"And why not say he agrees with Firestarter?
Korlash agreed with you?
You cannot put sanctions on players in this way."

Did Korlash say, "I agree with Battousai." Then end his post? I was just wanting Sajin to post what he thought. If he thought similar to you, he could have posted word for word what you posted. That way, there is no vaguness at all. Not tunnelling you again...

"Clearly Battousai does not like the direction my supposed lynch is taking at this point.
With fresh impetus from the replacements, and previous cases on me being shot down, he then starts to question those taking their votes from me, without actually adding anything as to why I should be lynched.
In Korlash' case, he changed his method of attack once one let him down, but Battousai isn't doing anything to pressure my lynch, he's merely trying to pressure those who have unvoted me."

This is where I can definately see you already made up your mind before you got to this point. I was pressuring Sajin, because he so easily moved his vote to SC, which I felt SC hadn't done anything too scummy (at least not enough to vote). I wasn't trying to get Sajin to revote you. Again, I'm not tunneling you here....

"What points are vague?
Again, pressurising those who believe scum lie elsewhere"

The point where he said he saw a slip. If you bothered to read up a post or so, which I think you did, so you conviently left it off. Why? See where you attacked me for only posting the downside of lynching a vanilla townie, now compare that to here where you leave off the post I question in order to expand your attack and/or some other reason to make your case stronger.

"Again, Battousai doesn't commit to anything here, he is merely making generic statements that may be true, but he doesn't try to back them up.
The fact he ignored Korlash similar post...."

That is how I feel, I was just trying to get whoever I was asking, to admit that it could be a possibility.

"Is another example of his tunnelling and scumminess."

This attack of Korlash seems out of place...

"Having being called out on his infrequent posting by me, he comes across as attacking in his post about doing finals...
If your busy, that’s fair enough, but why did you only feel the need to post this now? After being called out on it?"

As I already said, because you asked me a question, so I answered. I was quite content in not telling anyone I was doing Finals since my semester was going to end soon.

"Battousai states, in so many words, that he's happy about the way Korlash is going about trying to get me lynched. Whether I’m town or scum.
For me, either both or one of them know my alignment, the push on me being lynched cannot be solely town driven, imho.
It seems to be without consideration of what everyone else has posted, and that is anti-town in my book. Everyday."

If I was scum and new you to be not scum, I would assume you told the truth and then proceede to try and get you lynched. Why? Because as I have already said, I think that vanilla townie claim on D1 needs to be lynched, and not following that as scum would be suspicious.

"1. I was otherwise engaged with the now missing M13..."

You were tunnelling? I thought my supposed tunnelling on you was scummy? So is it ok if you do it, but not me?

Alex (again)-

I was also gone when the whole thing happened, so if I wasn't I would have said my vote was random earlier. But of course we can't know that, and can only speculate if I would have.

Refreshed the page this time

[alexhans]

@battou:
I'll try to make myself clearer. I knew it was hard to explain.

Fire is about to be lynched...
Everyone (almost) seems to be against him and not care what he says. They just use it against him.
He's annoyed. He responds in desperation.
Finally, he sees that he is going to be lynched.
He accepts his fate but tries to help town by giving something else besides his lynch.
Then Super Alexhans comes and starts trying to move the game and look at other people.
The game gets moving and there are other cases/accusations.
Fire now knows that there is hope to lynch scum.

Now. Do you see my reasoning? Why would it be scummy to accept his fate? Why would be scummy to renew his hopes and try to lynch scum?

It's not scummy. It's a null tell. I'm not saying it makes him town, I'm just refuting a point that Kor used to validate his lynch.

How is that a contradiction? I random voted him, and my reason was that he didn't want to vote. How is that different from voting someone for, I don't know, just finishing a game containing an enemy to town, named Rage?

Come on dude, let's not joke ourselves... IT IS different. You were voting for him for a decent reason. Something that he could respond to. If I say you smell like my socks and vote you there's nothing you can do about it but shrug. Your vote was definetly not the same.

I was also gone when the whole thing happened, so if I wasn't I would have said my vote was random earlier. But of course we can't know that, and can only speculate if I would have.

Whatever. as long as you agree it wasn't entirely random. We could call it semi-random with motives.


Hell! Im gonna make this clear:
@everyone: Do you think Fire is scum or not?