Newbie 774 - Spegezzironi: Game Over! TOWN WINS!

[SensFan]

Vote: ckool

[Rustythepirate]

Ckool5000 not knowing the NK = null-tell. Also I'm not entirely sure why you posted that, semioldguy - why was it necessary to make that opinion public? It read to me like you were reassuring/coaching him or something.

@SensFan - Generally, the attitude

you think ckool5000 is faking was prevalent in a game I had with him in which he died as town, so I'm inclined to accept it.

[SensFan]

@SensFan - Generally, the attitude

you think ckool5000 is faking was prevalent in a game I had with him in which he died as town, so I'm inclined to accept it.

That makes it even more suspect, if he thinks he can fool you by repeating the same scummy play that he did as Town.

[cpe]

I think I'm going to agree with Sens, the first thing you do when a new day dawns is look at who was killed.

vote: ckool

[sekinj]

Day 2: Vote Count 12

(# of votes against) Voted Player - by Voter(s)

(2) ckool5000 - by SensFan; cpe

(1) Johoohno - by Rustythepirate

(0) cpe - by none

(0) semioldguy - by none

(0) Rustythepirate - by none

(0) SensFan - by none

(0) Sotty7 - by none

Not Voting: ckool5000; Johoohno; semioldguy; Sotty7

With seven (7) citizens alive it takes

four (4) votes to lynch.

Day 2 Deadline: 5/20/09 12:00 PM CST

Please PM me if I have missed anything.

[Johoohno]

@ Rustythepirate:

Why do you think muzzz was killed?

[semioldguy]

Ckool5000 not knowing the NK = null-tell. Also I'm not entirely sure why you posted that, semioldguy - why was it necessary to make that opinion public? It read to me like you were reassuring/coaching him or something.

Not knowing the night kill was not the reason for my thought, it was because he corrected himself three hours later as opposed to shortly after his post. I made the post really late Thursday night after coming home after drinking, and thinking about it now I see that my logic behind my opinion was bad. I was thinking that scum would more likely correct their mistake sooner, as they would be more likely to realize their mistake at the time of post. But a townie wouldn't realize his mistake until re-reading, which I thought a post three hours later supported. As I typed this out now it made no sense to me.

[Rustythepirate]

@ Rustythepirate:

Why do you think muzzz was killed?

Muzzz was scum-hunting and had no suspicion on himself, and thus was a great risk for the scum. Also the only person he was really connected to was Lamont_Cranston, and he was lynched, so it offers little information for the next day to help the town. Why do you ask, and why do you ask me?

[Johoohno]

Since you are voting for me I wanted to see if you are using crap logic or not, but you came to the same conclusion as I on the muzzz case.

Care to explain your vote on me?

[Rustythepirate]

Scum can have sound logic on one thing and use crap logic for another - they are not mutually exclusive. If your real intention of asking me why muzzz was killed was to see if my case on you was logical/illogical, you should have just asked why I voted for you.

Anyway it is a real vote - as in I think you are the scummiest at the moment. Will explain later.

[Sotty7]

Feeling better now, re-read is a go.

So Rusty was that a FoS for Sensfan?

If I meant to give SensFan a FoS I would have done do (disregarding the fact that I usually dislike FoS's). What gave you the impression that I meant to give him one?

FoS: Lamont_Cranston

You don't normally like FOS's but you FOS LC here...? At this point you only had a random vote on Johoohno, why not just switch votes?

The only situation I could see myself legitimately FoS'ing is in lyol and I didn't want to risk the scum jumping on my vote. Or if I was voting someone else, as SensFan said.

So your FOS of LC wasn't legitimate? Cause right now I don't see why you would “seriously” FOS someone while keeping a random vote on someone else.

Lamont: He seems very scummy to me. I mean, just look at the post right above this one!

What makes his post scummy to

you

? Also you unvoted and yet found Lamont “very scummy” why not vote him?

Wow, Sotty... Thanks for making me feel like an idiot.

Nah, j/k. You're still town in my book. I don't really want to vote for Lamont right now though, putting him at L-1 is something that I really want to do because of his (lack of) logic, but... Anyone can just swoop in... I guess I just need more evidence.

Oh, and by the way, I never made a big deal out of random.org, I think it was Lamont or Rusty or someone else that made a big deal out of it...

So... Yeah, I guess I'll vote for... Let me think a little while longer.

Why did you feel the need to reassure me that I am still town in your book? This is a disturbing pattern of caving/pleasing your attackers shown by you ckool (previous glaring examples here: Post 38 though 40, Post 48 though 51 and Post 80 though 82)

I'll give Perpetuum some time to answer the prod, and if nothing fabulous comes from him I'll be ready to hammer Lamont_Cranston.

But I'd like have a bit more interaction from Perpetuum this day before Night.

Did you ever explain why you were so willing to hammer?

@ Lamont_Cranston:

Use your time finding scum by doing a re-read! Appealing to emotion won't work, but finding scum and stating your tells might do the job.

(And if you're lynched and flips scum, a final analysis of yours will give us plenty more to go on day 2.)

Almost as if you know he is going to flip town. Also why did you feel the need to post the info in brackets? If LC was scum it would be unlikely he would have given us anything of value if he did do an analysis thanks to your heads up.

Aggression isn't necessarily scummy, but it's more scummy than nothing... And until, and I don't see much of anything heavy going on at the moment.

It's either scummy or it's not. How much you have to go on shouldn't be a factor here.

Okay, I've got to butt in here. Two things:

1. You're right. People should probe for reactions. In fact, that's what I've been trying to do for a while now. Let's see if you can guess what...

2. How is using random.org a "100% correct" method of determining scum? Did you see what rusty wrote about me using it last game?... And being town?... Why would scum need to do random.org? Why couldn't they just vote someone for their username? Then again, using random.org is an excellent way for getting reactions...

By the way, I really want to vote for you, I really do... But... Some voice deep down inside of me says I shouldn't...
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Ah, forget this,

vote: Lamont

. Your vote-changing, flame wars with sens, and constant vague, half-answering questions is just too much.

Ugh.. The reluctant vote of someone we now know to be a townie just pings my scumdar hardcore. If you are scum that means you knew LC's alignment and wanted to have an out so you could distance yourself from his lynch if it got that far. You could just point to this post and say “see! I wasn't sure...”

The vote also comes after Rusty pushes the LC wagon a little more right after I unvoted taking LC off lynch -1 in Post 204

I don't like how you seem to bend to the will of other players.

How many times do you have to confirm a vote, Lamont_Cranston? The more you confirm it the less significant it becomes. And muzzz is right, if you genuinely think SensFan is scum, the pro-town thing to do would to be to try to convince the rest of the town that he is scum - not give up and stop talking to him. Generally whenever someone decides to stop talking to someone completely in a game I vote for them as it's a scum-tell to me.

How is that a scum tell? It feels like you are just finding anything/everything you can to make LC look more and more suspicious.

Ranking of players from most scummy to least scummy:
Lamont_Cranston
ckool5000
SensFan
Johoohno
cpe
Rustythepirate
Sotty7
muzzz

Why do you think it's a good idea to rank players like this?

@ semioldguy: Welcome, I didn't get the chance to say that last day.

I don't disagree with your vote on L_C, I most likely would've hammered him myself, but I would've liked to get more info on you before you rushed the town into the night.

What info do you think we would have gotten?

We didn't get the chance to ask him any questions and see him in action more than those two posts. I see it as valuable to make yourself accustomed with a players playstyle a bit, it mught help you in understanding statements and interpret them as character or alignment. In my opinion semioldguy made sure we wouldn't get to know him that much before we got into night 1. I see that as possibly scummy.

It's either scummy or it's not. What's with this “possibly” stuff? Also you stated back at the top of page 8 that you would hammer LC after a bit of interaction from Perpetuum now semioldguy. He posted his thoughts and hammered, why is that scummy to you now?

Vote: Johoohno

This is not helpful.

Vote: ckool

Ditto

@ Rustythepirate:

Why do you think muzzz was killed?

Why do

you

think muzzz was killed?

Anyway it is a real vote - as in I think you are the scummiest at the moment. Will explain later.

It's later now....

Okay after re-reading the game I will say my top two suspects are ckool and Johoohno. ckool just seems to be blowing with the wind, once someone questions him he bows to their pressure and changes his tact and quite often his vote. Johoohno is giving me a bad vibe. The whole asking questions of everyone is a good distracting tactic, makes you look like you are posting content when you really aren't. I'm also not liking how he is trying to dirty semioldguy for hammering in a position that Johoohno himself said he would hammer.

With that said however, I don't really like any of the votes that are on these two guys. Rusty's non-explanation of his vote is really bad in my eyes. I want to know the reasoning ASAP. Also CPE seems to be

once again

following Sens which I hate. If I was to vote right now it would probably be for ckool, but I am not happy putting him at lynch -1 so soon. I also think that voting him for correcting himself about the night kill alone is pretty damn weak.

So yeah, I am going to hold my vote for now.

[SensFan]

Vote: ckool

Ditto [to not being helpful]

I disagree. I often vote without reasons, especially early in the day.[/quote]

[Rustythepirate]

You don't normally like FOS's but you FOS LC here...? At this point you only had a random vote on Johoohno, why not just switch votes?

So your FOS of LC wasn't legitimate? Cause right now I don't see why you would “seriously” FOS someone while keeping a random vote on someone else.

I was playing to the irony of saying that I don't like FOS's and then FOSing, so yes it wasn't serious.

Generally whenever someone decides to stop talking to someone completely in a game I vote for them as it's a scum-tell to me.

How is that a scum tell? It feels like you are just finding anything/everything you can to make LC look more and more suspicious.

If someone refuses to listen to someone attacking them, I find it to be a convenient way for scum to avoid attacks, and also a blatant appeal to emotion/inexperience. And this isn't simply an attempt to make LC look more suspicious - I've done this in other previous games and I still believe it.

I've been pretty busy so the time between I voted Johoohno and when I explain it was a little longer than I desired, but still, I don't believe that one has to immediately explain when one votes for someone. The content-less vote can provide reactions from players that can be useful, and I was always going to explain it anyway.

Johoohno reads scummy to me. He is asking questions to appear pro-town but don't actually help the town or have any content. This appears as a scum tactic from experienced players I've seen - ask questions and appear helpful without actually helping the town in your questions and avoiding suspicion. Also, when he criticizes semioldguy, he does it in a way that includes a qualifier that allows him to slightly attack someone without committing to it. This allows him to cast suspicion on multiple players without having to take the responsibility for it. I agree with Sotty7 in that the attack on semioldguy is hypocritical.

[cpe]

The saying he didn't know the night kill seemed like a scum tell to me. I'm not intentionally following Sense, I just agree with him...

[Johoohno]

I'll give Perpetuum some time to answer the prod, and if nothing fabulous comes from him I'll be ready to hammer Lamont_Cranston.

But I'd like have a bit more interaction from Perpetuum this day before Night.

Did you ever explain why you were so willing to hammer?

I had my reasons: L_C was the most suspicious one to me, and since the town was pretty much united I felt that it couldn’t be fuelled only by scum, and it happens that towns don't really dare to lynch in the end due to the risk of a mislynch and a no-lynch isn't the play D1, therefore I wanted town to know that I would be willing to hold the hammer. Furthermore my volunteering might have sparked some reactions to interpret (it also did so to some extent, sotty7 got uncertain and unvoted. I find it a bit scummy).

@ Lamont_Cranston:

Use your time finding scum by doing a re-read! Appealing to emotion won't work, but finding scum and stating your tells might do the job.

(And if you're lynched and flips scum, a final analysis of yours will give us plenty more to go on day 2.)

Almost as if you know he is going to flip town. Also why did you feel the need to post the info in brackets? If LC was scum it would be unlikely he would have given us anything of value if he did do an analysis thanks to your heads up.

Is there a reason for you to skip my EBWOP right after the one you quoted?

@ semioldguy: Welcome, I didn't get the chance to say that last day.

I don't disagree with your vote on L_C, I most likely would've hammered him myself, but I would've liked to get more info on you before you rushed the town into the night.

What info do you think we would have gotten?

We didn't get the chance to ask him any questions and see him in action more than those two posts. I see it as valuable to make yourself accustomed with a players playstyle a bit, it mught help you in understanding statements and interpret them as character or alignment. In my opinion semioldguy made sure we wouldn't get to know him that much before we got into night 1. I see that as possibly scummy.

It's either scummy or it's not. What's with this “possibly” stuff? Also you stated back at the top of page 8 that you would hammer LC after a bit of interaction from Perpetuum now semioldguy. He posted his thoughts and hammered, why is that scummy to you now?

Is anyone else agreeing with sotty7 here? I see a definite distinction between my willing to lynch after some more interaction, and semioldguy surfing in and hammering right after his appearance to cut off any further discussion of day 1. As you also see, both in my post 260 (quoted above) and in this post, I was hoping for more info D1 and wasn't prepared to end it just when it happened.

I don't really see a crystal clear scum candidate just now, which kind of tells me that at least one of the scums have to be an experienced player. However I will list what my general feeling of the different players are right now:

ckool:

Feels like newbie, even if he refers to having played before. His playful comments sometimes feel as a cover up to appear more jovial and not to be taken serious.

cpe:

He is basically following others on their choices.

semioldguy:

As I've said now a few times I really didn't like how he hammered D1. Furthermore his appearance D2 has been very reluctant almost. Just posting for the sake of appearance almost. I deem Semioldguy as one of the scummier in this town.

SensFan:

D1 I didn't got any read at all on SensFan, and I still can't tell his alignment. I haven't been in any game but this one and for now I really don't see why L_C held him in so high regard.

Rustythepirate:

I got a really good town feel of Rusty at the start of D1, but as time went by he seemed a bit more scummy. D2 he voted for me early on and then didn't put out a reason for it until asked for it by both me and sotty7. It felt almost as if he wanted to check out if others would join on this (like cpe just followed on SensFn's ckool vote). I wouldn't be very surprised if he was scum.

sotty7:

I liked sotty7 D1 most of the time, she seemed to be following the game closely and made good observations. However, along the day I got this nagging feeling she might be scum just playing with us, plus she unvoted when I volunteered to hammer, even though the town was pretty much united.

My top scum list then is (from most to least): semioldguy, Rusty & sotty7.

I haven't looked for any connections between players yet, but I don't remember any at the top of my head, meaning none blatantly obvious D1.

I would like to see scum lists from everyone. But preferably only the top three or four candidates from each one.

[Johoohno]

EBWOP:

SensFan:

D1 I didn't got any read at all on SensFan, and I still can't tell his alignment. I haven't been in any game but this one

with him

and for now I really don't see why L_C held him in so high regard.

[Rustythepirate]

Rustythepirate:

I got a really good town feel of Rusty at the start of D1, but as time went by he seemed a bit more scummy. D2 he voted for me early on and then didn't put out a reason for it until asked for it by both me and sotty7. It felt almost as if he wanted to check out if others would join on this (like cpe just followed on SensFn's ckool vote). I wouldn't be very surprised if he was scum.

Why do you criticize my vote on day 2 but not SensFan for his? Also, what examples do you have of me of time going by in which I seem more scummy?

[Johoohno]

@ Rusty:

He seems to be doing so consistently through out this gaem, putting his vote immediately to put preassure and show where his suspicion lies. As I said before, I don't see his alignment at all, and would seriously want some analysis from him.

You on the other hand have explained your votes or I could follow your reasoning more clearly, but D2 you just hand out a vote without any explanation.

@ everyone:

What about those lists of suspicions? I'd prefer if we got them from everyone. That would lead us to 5 unbiased lists and 2 lists made by scum. That woul give us a bit of information to discuss. And discuss we must if we're to find scum.

[semioldguy]

Ranking of players from most scummy to least scummy:
Lamont_Cranston
ckool5000
SensFan
Johoohno
cpe
Rustythepirate
Sotty7
muzzz

Why do you think it's a good idea to rank players like this?

Because I've seen it requested and done before, as well as having done so myself as a replacement in another game, without it having met with negative criticism just for posting it.

[ckool5000]

Plus, it shows what someone's opinions are, in case who they think was most scummy on the list turns out to be scum, then you can be pretty sure that they're town... Or a scum bussing his partner. In other words, it's a way for people to get information about the person making the list, and for the list-maker, it's a way to keep your thoughts organized if you don't want to use the "notes" section.

Sorry, I just wanted to plug in my two cents... Make that one cent, because I don't really have much of a clue who to suspect...

Oh, and I'll post a list of voting patterns for you guys soon, just in case it might be any help.

[ckool5000]

Sorry guys. Due to lack of time, I was only able to finish three people and will have to finish the rest later. Out of them, cpe seems the most suspicious, but notice that Jahoohno's only vote was a random one. Of course, he was taking some heat at the time and was probably more focused on keeping himself from being lynched than lynching others... Or some other reason that I'm not sure of. Anywho, here's the first three as of now:
Voting Patterns Chart Part 1

Ckool5000

Day 1

- Random Vote

treeshavenotounges

(now

muzzz

who was

town

) second to do so.
Unvote from Lamont (

town

) saying that he doesn’t like random voting
Re-Random-Vote, by Rusty’s convincing,

treeshavenotounges

(now

muzzz

who was

town

) second to do so
Unvote for thinking it’s out of the random vote stage. Made list of suspicions.
Puts L-1 vote on

Lamont

(

town

) for vague answers and vote-changing

Day 2

- Made this chart.

Cpe (lailai)

Day 1

- lailai is replaced
No explanation until later L-2 voted

Johoono.

Unvoted and L-2 voted

Lamont

(town)

for “following Senfen”
Unvotes. Claims that his idea earlier was a “bad idea.”

Day 2

- Follows sens and plays second vote on

Ckool

Jahoohno

Day 1

- Random votes

RustythePirate

Unvotes.

Day 2

- …Nothing

[SensFan]

Plus, it shows what someone's opinions are, in case who they think was most scummy on the list turns out to be scum, then you can be pretty sure that they're town... Or a scum bussing his partner. In other words, it's a way for people to get information about the person making the list, and for the list-maker, it's a way to keep your thoughts organized if you don't want to use the "notes" section.

Sorry, I just wanted to plug in my two cents... Make that one cent, because I don't really have much of a clue who to suspect...

Oh, and I'll post a list of voting patterns for you guys soon, just in case it might be any help.

It's a bad idea to post a complete list. Just the top few scummy ones is best.

No one else should post a list of more than the 3 people they find scummiest.

[Rustythepirate]

If you want the votes for reference purposes, I've been keeping track. I'm not giving the reasoning behind the votes because I don't presume to read minds, and people should give their own reasoning for their votes and shouldn't need others to explain it for them. Also not including unvotes. Bold are confirmed town.

Day 1

[mrow]Voter[col]Lucky Recipient SensFan[col]Sotty7 SensFan[col]Rustythepirate Rustythepirate[col]Johoohno semioldguy[col]

muzzz

Lamont_Cranston

[col]SensFan Johoohno[col]Rustythepirate

muzzz

[col]semioldguy Sotty7[col]ckool5000 ckool5000[col]

muzzz

SensFan[col]ckool5000

Lamont_Cranston

[col]ckool5000 ckool5000[col]

muzzz

Sotty7[col]

Lamont_Cranston

SensFan[col]Johoohno Rustythepirate[col]

Lamont_Cranston

Lamont_Cranston

[col]Johoohno cpe[col]Johoohno

Lamont_Cranston

[col]cpe cpe[col]

Lamont_Cranston

SensFan[col]cpe

muzzz

[col]

Lamont_Cranston

(L-1) SensFan[col]

Lamont_Cranston

(L-1) cpe[col]SensFan

Lamont_Cranston

[col]SensFan ckool5000[col]

Lamont_Cranston

(L-1) semioldguy[col]

Lamont Cranston

(L-0)

Day 2

[mrow]Voter[col]Lucky Recipient Rustythepirate[col]Johoohno SensFan[col]ckool5000 cpe[col]ckool5000

[ckool5000]

Wow... Rusty, you're much better than I am at it...

[ckool5000]

Let me ask this one question.

@Sensfan: Why do YOU think cpe is following you, or do you think that at all?