MKM II GAME OVER

[Moratorium]

To this lot:

-sirdanilot (jumped in Night 1)
-Nyx
-MikeSC6
-dingoatemybaby
-Sironigous
-Seraphim
-Bowwy
-MacavityLock (not until May 20)
-xRECKONERx
-millar13

I would hope that you people are already reading along with this game. You're expected to be playing in it. Needing an additional week to read the game makes as much sense for you guys than it would for people who are active players.

As in, no sense at all.

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-populartajo (2): zwetschenwasser, ortolan
-sirdanilot (1): Gorrad
-Looker (1): populartajo

Not voting (12): killa seven, Kast, ZEEnon, Riceballtail, Looker, sirdanilot, Moratorium, semioldguy, WeyounsLastClone, Empking, caf19, AceMarksman

With 16 alive it takes 9 real votes to lynch.

[populartajo]

A weak attack coming for zwet is understandable but a weak attack coming for a player I respect only means one thing.

I will answer every accusation you brought to the table, ort. Until you eat your words.

Unvote Vote : ortolan.

[ortolan]

I will answer every accusation you brought to the table, ort. Until you eat your words.

Um, ok, so where is the answer to all the stuff I wrote in 973 then?

[Gorrad]

k so reading the game may take a while though, anyone has a summary about what happened this would help my reread a bit otherwise count on about a week or so.

`

Tell us why you're now in the game or die. I am dead serious about this.

[populartajo]

I will answer every accusation you brought to the table, ort. Until you eat your words.

Um, ok, so where is the answer to all the stuff I wrote in 973 then?

You think it will take five minutes to answer to that pile of shit?
Im working on it.
Dont worry.

[Empking]

Vote: Pop

Seems OMGUSy.

[Moratorium]

I will answer every accusation you brought to the table, ort. Until you eat your words.

Um, ok, so where is the answer to all the stuff I wrote in 973 then?

You think it will take five minutes to answer to that pile of shit?
Im working on it.
Dont worry.

Most of 973 wasn't addressed to you.

Let's hear it.

[populartajo]

I shall refrain from any "I told you so" at this stage.

Why? Maybe because you knew that scum

did

have item descriptions? Now that we know that some scum did have item descriptions but some didnt, do you think its more likely that town would know that scum did have item descriptions or not?

]tajo, now as I said yesterday tajo did tell us he had a "gut belief" in SK's claim which didn't seem to have much basis.

well, silly billy, gut precisely cant have much basis. Thats because its called GUT, ya know?

And as I pointed out in 864, his justification for believing the claim was contradictory.

And as I pointed out in, I explained why this wasnt contradictory in 872. Did you miss it for some reason?

Plus he tried to redirect votes to another wagon, Looker's, solely on the basis of "lurking", which is a very weak justification for a day one wagon, especially when one compares it to the now flipped-scum SK wagon.

False.
My case on Looker in 832 is not solely "lurking".

Case on Looker, posted in Lurking.
Promised a post but havent done so.
His first post of the game was a vote for Shadow Knight showing a bizarre connection with the Ort-SK dilemma, evne though he hadnt finished reading the thread then.
Playing the retard card, even though I know Looker is not retarded.
His predecesor, Shinnen, comploted against the plan and refused to colaborate.

You think Looker is town, ort?

That said I do not think he is scummy alone for the suggestion of mass-claiming.

Flase again. You did when you tried to get me lynched in D1. Try again.

See, yesterday, while you were voting me for opposing a mass-claim plan as being useless which has since turned out to be...useless, I was busy catching scum.

You were opposing to a plan that was not useless yesterday. It has been proven useless today. How did you know it was useless yesterday? Unless you are scum of course and you knew it was useless since D1.

In that logic, you would also have to attack everyone that supported the plan.

At the last minute, you tried to redirect from the scum's wagon, to someone else's (Looker), on the sole basis of "lurking".

False. Looker's case is not only lurking. Dont you read? Even worse, why do you defense Looker when he hasnt done nothing to consider him protown?
And yes, I tried to redirect the wagon becuase I felt SK was telling the truth. I explained why I thought that but I was wrong. That doesnt make me scum.

And your rationale for wanting me lynched today, apart from being incredibly pro-town, is???

You are incredibly pro-town? WTF? What have you done to being considered pro-town? NOTHING.

My ratioanle is that you are scum. It doesnt get better than that. You need to die.

[populartajo]

Vote: Pop

Seems OMGUSy.

Empking, please be more useful and read the thread before posting silly things.

I was the one that started the day saying that ort should die. If this is OMGUS its definitely coming from him.

FOS: Empking.

[populartajo]

k so reading the game may take a while though, anyone has a summary about what happened this would help my reread a bit otherwise count on about a week or so.

A week?

[populartajo]

k so reading the game may take a while though, anyone has a summary about what happened this would help my reread a bit otherwise count on about a week or so.

`

Tell us why you're now in the game or die. I am dead serious about this.

I have a theory about this but you are right.
Sirdanilot, you know why you entered this game?

[Moratorium]

ort wrote:
And as I pointed out in 864, his justification for believing the claim was contradictory.

And as I pointed out in, I explained why this wasnt contradictory in 872. Did you miss it for some reason?

I don't get this part, ort was showing the contradiction between you believing a claim because it was simple vs. later believing a claim even when it was not simple.

Your response in 872 talks about gut, and believing the complicated claim, but I didn't see where it addressed the contradiction.

Please expand on this? Or point out what I missed, if that's the case?

(still reading your response)

[Moratorium]

EBWOP: quote fail, should look like this

And as I pointed out in 864, his justification for believing the claim was contradictory.

And as I pointed out in, I explained why this wasnt contradictory in 872. Did you miss it for some reason?

[populartajo]

The contradiction ort is presenting is that first I said that I believed the claim because scum usually have elaborate claims.

Ort thinks that after SK explained more his claim, it became more elaborate (for him). And he thinks I am scum because I kept believing the claim when it became "more elaborate".

But this is what I thought:

When I said scum had elaborate claims I meant that usually scum dont claim a simple role like goomba in a bubble. A reason I thought why this claim could be legit is cuz I tought that the vanilla version of this game were Goombas. For reference, in the other game, scum had fakeclaims like Dr. Mario and at the beginning they didnt know that the Toads were the vanillas of the game.

[WeyounsLastClone]

A weak attack coming for zwet is understandable but a weak attack coming for a player I respect only means one thing.

I will answer every accusation you brought to the table, ort. Until you eat your words.

Unvote Vote : ortolan.

OMGUS much? I agree that the votes on you are kind of unwarranted, but immediately switching to ortolan after he votes you feels a bit childish.

[populartajo]

A weak attack coming for zwet is understandable but a weak attack coming for a player I respect only means one thing.

I will answer every accusation you brought to the table, ort. Until you eat your words.

Unvote Vote : ortolan.

OMGUS much? I agree that the votes on you are kind of unwarranted, but immediately switching to ortolan after he votes you feels a bit childish.

What about if I think he is scum?

What about if I said that he was scum since D1 and the only reason why I unvoted him is because he showed that he had item descriptions in his items, which we know now that doesnt indicate alignment?

This is not OMGUS.

[caf19]

Ok, so here's my take on things.

As other people have said, we are basically back to square one regarding the confirmation plan now. I think it is more sensible to assume that qwints knew the item prices rather than just guessing lucky. Even if he had somehow worked out that the red shell cost 2 more than the green, he would have had to declare that he knew item prices without knowing what question he was going to get, and with only a minute chance of that question coming up.

So, it's a safe assumption that some scum have knowledge of items, and some don't. But presumably, last night the scum who did have knowledge would have told all the scum who don't. So now they all do, probably. Of course we don't know exactly the extent of their knowledge, but it's probably best to err on the side of caution - this means that if you're intending to use an item at night from now on, shells are probably a better option, because we have to assume that scum know how the other two work.

I'm not essentially opposed to the discussion of NKs, if they are unexpected ones as last night's was. However, in this case there are so many possibilities that I don't think it will be fruitful at this stage. Maybe the scum NK by buying and using their items, and they couldn't afford any (Shadow Knight was their richest player, or something)? Maybe the scum's NK got redirected? Random vidgeing? Who knows. It could be useful later, but I don't see a lot of conclusions that we can draw right now.

Anyway, onto today.

I know about his meta and the shallow waters blah blah, but seriously, zwet is scummy. Now that he's not 'confirmed' anymore , I can't help but note that he is 'playing up' to his meta. He is tunneling with woefully inadequate reasoning, purposefully exaggerating the aggressiveness and dumbness of his posts in order that people will go 'oh, it's just zwet being zwet'. And it seems to be working - a decent wagon is building up on tajo. I'm not really a fan of the tajo wagon, he's too much of an easy target. (and so is zwet, you might respond, except that nobody is going after zwet...)

Also, I was suspicious of Looker yesterday and still am today. Check out how qwints tried to clear him in 646, and the out-of-the-blue unvote of SK in 818. Looker needs to start posting ftw so I can further assess him.

More later.

[Moratorium]

Two questions:

1) @populartajo and @ortolan: Do you two have a history of past mafia games together?

2) @caf19: Have you played a game with zwetschenwasser before?

Neither question is meant to be rhetorical, I'd like to know the answer to both.

Just read caf19's post, and a lightbulb went off in my head. So thank you, caf19.

[populartajo]

Two questions:

1) @populartajo and @ortolan: Do you two have a history of past mafia games together?

We have played some games before. He has been town all the time, IIRC. I think ortolan is a good reasoning player and therefore I dont think he is town scumhunting with that last weak attack against me.

Do you agree with his attacks against me? What about mine?

[caf19]

2) @caf19: Have you played a game with zwetschenwasser before?

I played a marathon game with him once. As scum, with my partner I managed to get him lynched, only to find that he was the lynchee. >.<

[Moratorium]

If I were to massively paraphrase the overall theme of the argument between ortolan and populartajo, it would be thus:

1) Ortolan's Case on PopularTajo

- Mass-claiming is Bad.
- (Long Interlude of suspicion on Gorrad)
- Hey, Mass-claiming failed! You fail, Mass-claiming is Bad. You must be scum.

2) PopularTajo's Case on Ortolan

- How dare you not accept that Mass-Claiming can be Good? You must be scum.

=====

My opinion right now is that this is two townies arguing. Both of you have reasonably legitimate arguments, so you've convinced yourselves the other side can't possibly be correct. (Mass-claiming IS overall very bad. Mass-claiming CAN be good if the circumstances are perfect. The rules of this game make this subject nebulous, and technically since we're not claiming roles, difficult to apply hard rules to).

I believe that ortolan questioning the item plan is legitimate, and not a reaction borne of fear of discovery.

I believe that tajo's motives to find loopholes that let town win are legitimate, and follow his general "Day 1 Superplan" meta.

The two are not mutually exclusive, but ortolan and tajo think they are, hence the votes.

=====

If I am massively mischaracterizing either of your arguments, please let me know. But generally, if you strip away all the

acoutrements

, all the more minor issues that were brought up to add bulk to their cases, I think that's the crux of it.

[Moratorium]

I know about his meta and the shallow waters blah blah, but seriously, zwet is scummy. Now that he's not 'confirmed' anymore , I can't help but note that he is 'playing up' to his meta. He is tunneling with woefully inadequate reasoning, purposefully exaggerating the aggressiveness and dumbness of his posts in order that people will go 'oh, it's just zwet being zwet'. And it seems to be working - a decent wagon is building up on tajo. I'm not really a fan of the tajo wagon, he's too much of an easy target. (and so is zwet, you might respond, except that nobody is going after zwet...)

I will join any policy-lynch wagon that starts on zwetschenwasser. If I was scum, and zwetschenwasser was my scumbuddy, I would still join that wagon. My general opinion of him is that he hinders whatever team he is on, so as far as I'm concerned, either he's scum and yay 1 less scum, or he's town and yay 1 less zwetschenwasser.

[AceMarksman]

either he's scum and yay 1 less scum, or he's town and yay 1 less zwetschenwasser.

This is so going in my signature. QFT, btw.

[populartajo]

Well, that was a bad generalization of my case against ortolan:

Mora and all, what do you think of this?

See, yesterday, while you were voting me for opposing a mass-claim plan as being useless which has since turned out to be...useless, I was busy catching scum.

You were opposing to a plan that was not useless yesterday. It has been proven useless today. How did you know it was useless yesterday? Unless you are scum of course and you knew it was useless since D1.

And why he is attacking me for attacking Looker and he lies when he says that Im attacking him only for lurking?

Also the reason why ortolan wagon lost steam was because he claimed he had item descriptions in his PM, using the plan he is bashing now to save his scummy ass. But now we know this doesnt indicate he is town.

@Mora, why does he think you are obv town and I am obv scum if we shared the same thoughts about the plan? Is it because I am calling for his lynch?

Ortolan just feels off and Im pretty sure he is scum.

[Moratorium]

Well, that was a bad generalization of my case against ortolan:

No one likes to have their hard work summed up in a few pithy sentences, so I understand. But I felt it was necessary to convey my general feelings in a very understandable way.

@Mora, why does he think you are obv town and I am obv scum if we shared the same thoughts about the plan? Is it because I am calling for his lynch?

It probably doesn't help.