Open 142: True Love (Game Over) before 784

[Percy]

No time to post today; tomorrow for sure! Sorry guys.

[hohum]

Vote count hasn't changed since the last time I posted

Just trying to be Captain OnTopofIt!

[Amished]

Just trying to be Captain OnTopofIt!

Sounds like title-fishing. Die mod scum!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

If there's no significant postings in the near future I will put Percy at L-1 because while I feel kirroha is most likely to be scum, I think Percy is a solid option as well at this point.

[Amished]

Mod: Can we poke KMD or something? Coming up on 36 hours since last post...

Already prodded KMD since it's been 60+ hours since his last post. He has yet to pick it up.

[Kmd4390]

Prodded. Will post tomorrow hopefully.

[Percy]

The case against kirroha

Later on there’s the anti-town behavior that I noted with her confirm of her vote followed by her very next post which backpedals from that confidence to try and distance herself from the vote that she was just so sure of.

As I had said, I wasn't that sure about Korts' scumminess. It's just that he insisted that I was scum, so I insisted that he was scum too. Confirm votes don't do anything in particular, right?

I find kirroha's response to somewhat evasive, but it seem pretty obvious to me that she was just parroting Korts, especially with the "chime in" comment just afterwards.

What was in my initial post that was scummy, and what 'answers and clarifications' did I provide that eased my scumminess?

I didn't like you analysis of the sonic situation, but it wasn't that bad to me. Most of all, I didn't like your buddying up to me.
Your clarification in 75 didn't reverse your buddying up too dramatically, or stick with it too dramatically either. Goldilocks zone, or something. It could be faked, but I was less suspicious of you.

Currently, I find Kmd and DDD more suspicious than kirroha. In particular, as I mentioned before, DDD's case against kirroha was pretty terrible in the early stages. The "confirm vote" scumminess was raised first by Zaz in 84, and mentioned again by DDD in 98 after I prodded for more details, and even then he phrases it as "hasn't helped herself" as though he's already getting ready for the "OH NO SHE WAS JUST A NOOB TOWNIE, OH WELL" tomorrow. He still hasn't explained his motive for jumping on the wagon in the first place in any clear manner - his first expansive post on the issue was 113, and most of it was said before by others. Smells like scummy opportunism.

In my defence

If I hadn't replaced into as many games as I have, I always just vote for somebody that doesn't have a vote. That's as useful as KMD always voting Zaz if they're together. I'll admit all day every day that it's a placeholder vote until I actually see anything and I don't have a problem with that and I don't see why people are really bringing it up. He has the meta to do it probably no matter what his alignment so it's a null tell. I act the same way every RVS, and that's a null tell.

Always voting for someone who doesn't have a vote is a *great* idea. Every time someone votes, people pay attention. Getting people to pay attention to players who may be slipping under the radar, or even those who are earning townie points, is a good idea. Even if you're scum, it has the potential to generate good information for the town.

Kmd's vote is not like this. It's a null tell as to his scumminess, but it's not a pro-town move either. Essentially, it does nothing. That was my position from the beginning, and it remains my position now.

I also wanted to point out some things that caught my eye since joining.

You also claimed some super-scum-hunting abilities when it came to this new player.

He claimed no such thing. He said he had a good read on me. We've played a couple times together and so far he's been right on the button about my alignment at all times. Saying that he has a meta on me is helpful, and if necessary to prove a point one way or another he'll have something he can point to out of experience. I feel that to be a great help to the town, just as Zaz can point out your games and we can read them at our leisure if we want to to try to get a better feel for you (also good).

I'll say it right now: I don't like meta analysis, in general. For example, ZazieR says "I have meta against Percy" and Kmd simply believes her, without ever reading it. Now DDD claims that he has a good read on you - that his word as to your alignment is somehow 'better' in an undefined way. It makes a difference that you've confirmed this to be true, but if you guys are the scumteam then this may give posts where you defend each other more credence in the future. Or, DDD can hasten a mislynch of you if he's scum and you're not, or vice versa.

It's frustrating being on the outside; we have ZazieR and Kmd claiming BFF status, and then DDD says how great he's going to be able to read you, and it makes me feel like my opinion counts for less when it really shouldn't.

Re your questions about IIoA, here is your definition:

You're posting, but you're not really contributing to the game with it (and with my stance on "fluff" commentary) I find it harms the game making it scummy

I would say that my post was not fluff commentary. I put more thought into it than just *shrug*, and even though I wasn't willing to commit to a particular "side" of the argument at that point, I did give an interpretation of the situation.

Re: the OMGUS claim, I'm sorry, but you're just wrong here. My reasons for voting for him are pretty clear when I actually vote:

Your vote means nothing, you didn't want to achieve anything by it, so why vote at all? The only reason you would vote ZazieR is to have a 'placeholder' vote, knowing that it will achieve nothing. You're still insisting that it doesn't mean anything.

Not doing something pro-town when you have the opportunity to do it is a scumtell. He conceded that it wasn't a pro-town move. Therefore, he earnt my vote. I didn't even address his reasons for voting for me there.

Finally, for your point about the kmd and zaz relationship. The only way you accusing him for saying that zaz is town really is only effective if both of them are scum. KMD-scum and Zaz-town, the read is right, and good for us. KMD-town and Zaz-town the read is right and good for us. KMD-town and Zaz-scum the read is wrong, and since you're disbelieving of it anyways it's not *really* that bad. KMD-scum and Zaz-scum is the only one where he has true knowledge and is lying about it.

1. Are you saying that if Kmd was lynched and flipped scum, you'd be

more

inclined to believe Zaz was town? I don't understand how else "good for us" can be taken.
2. Your argument seems to be saying "it has no effect on the game whether he's right or wrong,

on average

", but that's missing the point. The point is that he doesn't have the evidence to back up his read.
3. If Kmd were scum, he's either lying/buddying or simply buddying. If he's town, then he's claiming access to knowledge that he simply doesn't have.

Percy makes a reasonable case against Kmd

You seem to be the only one who thinks so. Do you disagree with Amished's read on me in any particular place?

A third party role is a role that's neither town nor scum. I've already explained why I'm a third party role, and why the mod is scum

I understand the whole 'lighthearted' thing, I really do. But I think it's unnecessary for me to answer questions about scenarios that just don't exist in this game.

You still haven't explained how the RVS gives information :s

Urgh, look, I'll quote this from another game I was in, where I had the same fucking argument:

WHY I THINK THE RANDOM VOTE PHASE IS AWESOME

In the random vote phase, everyone is looking at how everyone else works, with no good grounding on any good reads. Some people know each other, and are scumbuddies together. We want to find these people!
We can start by flinging accusations around (and most games start this way). They're lighthearted, the reasons are usually pretty lame, but hopefully we can start to see some personalities. If someone's personality appears to change later in the game, we have something to call them on!
We take our notes, but keep the search wide and make sure everyone gets a look-in.

Eventually, we'll get something weird, something good, something worth seriously investigating. We do that, and see how people react - do they like the proceedings? Do they participate, or shrink away? Before long people are screaming at each other, and we have to sort through the confusion, keep our heads and keep looking for the knowing glances between the scum.

This is how the day proceeds, whether we get out of the RVS sooner or later. But later is better - it's the best way to prepare us for the day. It generates content for everyone, and establishes personality reads that can be scrutinized later.

I'm so sick of talking about the RVS. It seems that the prevailing attitude on this site is that the RVS is both necessary and bad, and I think neither of those things are true.

And I disagree. Because one player says that his lover is scum, doesn't mean that he's right. It only shows that the attacker of the two might be town.

Of course, you're right. I apologise for the mistake. *facepalm*


DDD says he's ready to put me at L-1. Kmd probably likes his vote on me, but I'd like to know if ZazieR and Mitey still like theirs.

Question

If we don't trust even a bit in our partners, it would be hard to find scum since our partners are the only people we can ever talk to quietly, and we must cherish that.

This gave me an idea for a question to everyone: Have you used your quicktopic threads with your partner to communicate with them? If so, what was said? I can't imagine a pro-town use for them, but perhaps I'm just being unimaginative.

More tomorrow.

[Amished]

1. Are you saying that if Kmd was lynched and flipped scum, you'd be more inclined to believe Zaz was town? I don't understand how else "good for us" can be taken.

Or we get a scum lynched, which is good for us.... >_>

Also, KMD was the only one to vote for Zaz, so it kinda acts like one of my votes, which is why I didn't criticize him as much. As nothing particularly spectacular or anything happened in the RVS, his vote still generated discussion (good) and he still moved it to where he wanted it (good). I just don't see what was so bad about it at the time. One action in the beginning of the game doesn't stop us from getting a read on him. It showed me that he's comfortable with Zaz, and depending on how the rest of the game turns out I should be wary/look into their conversations a bit more.

As to meta, I generally am against it, but there are certain things that you can look for. In a newbie game that I replaced into, SensFan (pretty well known, long time *good* player) self voted. Obviously, we thought it was scummy, but his meta was such that he does odd things when he's town. We stopped suspecting him, and he turned out to be town when he was NK'd. Meta can be useful, just that people have to pay attention.

Certainly if you have an opinion on somebody, nobody *should* ignore it, especially if it's a valid concern. I would hope that somebody being comfortable with another player doesn't make you feel like an outsider though, as there's 6 people not of the "comfortable with each other" pairing.

Even with your argument, it still falls under the necessary but bad heading to me. It's really helpful to give a discussion starting off point, but as soon as we have anything to discuss, moving out of it is good. Therefore we need it, but we should get out of it as soon as possible. Is that really that hard to understand? You're making basically the same points that I would for my argument, we're just coming to different conclusions.

KMD and I are using our quicktopic. Mostly just commentating, giving a general "feel" to players, nothing that wouldn't be ripped apart out here cause there's nothing that substantial to it. I also feel that it gives an extra layer of mafia-ness too, since you don't know the alignment of who you're talking to. As a townie, I like it as I don't have to censor myself and if KMD slips as scum, it gives me something else to point against him in my mind. Though if everything is all good in a private forum where slips are less likely to be picked up on (since they're only being read by one person) then it can give me an added level of security. Personally I'd be somewhat suspicious if people weren't using their quicktopic as that would show me that they have something to hide.

[Korts]

Not much to say without kirroha or Kmd replying... Long posts not helping. Will read and comment if needed, but mainly I'm interested in those two right now.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I've been putting off walls-o-text for way too long.

Oi, Kmd--why so convinced that your town read of Zazie is correct?

I could be wrong, but I like to think that I've played enough games with her to be able to tell. And she looks how she usually does as town. (Thought I responded to this already, but it doesn't look that way.)

I made my vote in the RVS. I meant when something serious came up, I'd place a real vote instead of just my jokevote.

I think this was exactly Korts' original point. Your vote means nothing, you didn't want to achieve anything by it, so why vote at all? The only reason you would vote ZazieR is to have a 'placeholder' vote, knowing that it will achieve nothing. You're still insisting that it doesn't mean anything. Thus, I'm happy to upgrade my initial reservations about "not pro-town" to "anti-town" and

Unvote, Vote: Kmd4390.

It's a joke vote. Of course it doesn't mean anything. So you are voting me this late over a joke vote? What happened to taking the early game with a grain of salt?

Oh and nice OMGUS btw. XD

Again, this was Kort's original point. Your vote was a schtick vote - just a joke, used to appear participatory in the RVS rather than to gather information for the town. Your rationalisation for using this particular voting style have been extremely poor.

Oh, and stop using acronyms you don't understand XD.

I don't generally take info from the RVS. I take it from the small things that happen immediately after and everything that blows up from there. Does my early game playstyle that I use and consider effective in most of the games I play make me scum here? How the hell does that make sense?

Oh, and you're right. I've played +/-70 games and don't know OMGUS when I see it.

Actually, there WAS a stance to take. You pick one side or the other. That is taking a stance.

IIOA-Information instead of analysis. You gave information on the game. I guess you could argue that you analyzed by looking at possibilities, but you didn't pick a side. Maybe not IIOA exactly, but still scummy.

Oh, there we go. It's not IIoA! I'm sorry, but your position is ridiculous. I also didn't just 'look at the possibilities', but stated my opinion as well. What

you

wanted me to do was to say "I agree with Korts!" or "I agree with Kmd!", but I simply didn't. There wasn't enough evidence there to make me swing wholly to one way or the other. What exactly was scummy about what I did?

Ok, sure. You didn't agree with me that my vote didn't make me scum (what?) and you didn't agree with Korts that it was anti-town (seems you do now). Fair enough if I could see this from your more recent posts. I'll get back to that in a second though.

You set yourself up to go whichever way looked easier later. Scum love having options.

But anyway. Your stance at the time was that you couldn't pick a side, right? You simply didn't agree or disagree with either of us. The early game should be taken with a grain of salt. That was your stance.

But now you are voting me later in the game over this same issue. And this is after I have called you scum and Korts is your lover. If you are scum, you obviously won't want Korts lynched. And you don't want someone who is suspicious of you alive. So you go back to this old point that you took no stance on, and even said meant nothing. And you use it to vote me.

You asked my opinion of Zaz. I said I'm very sure she's town. Now you are attacking me for answering your question. Am I supposed to lie and say she is scummy? Because she really isn't. I'm not giving specific meta because the second I do, her meta changes whether she is trying to change it or not. Awareness of one's own meta means it no longer exists (unless it's an intentional meta).

I agree that she is a smart player. But there still is a difference between her town and scum game. Maybe I'm not an expert at picking her out as scum, but I can sometimes pick her out as town, and she's playing how she does when I do.

Firstly, I'm not attacking you for answering the question. I'm attacking you because your answer is crap.

Secondly, you suggest that the only alternative to saying "I'm very sure she's town" is "I think she's scummy", which it's not. It's a false dichotomy. My original attack was on your use of "very sure".

Finally, let me reiterate. You're saying that

sometimes

you can get a town read on ZazieR, in a way that you can't substantiate; that you're not an expert, but you're

very sure

she's town. Sorry, not buying it. Now I think your initial vote on her was a distancing measure, because now you seem to be going out of your way to defend another player who isn't under threat, and that's really weird.

So it's crap for my read on a player to be that I think she is town? Ok.

I'm pretty sure of it. What is wrong with that?

I'm going out of my way to defend her by saying I think she is town when a player asks me for my read on her? Interesting. Guess I should have ignored the question, right? That's pretty protown.

Kind of humorous that my "crap argument" isn't even an argument I was making. I think we call that a strawman around here.

You were saying that ZazieR is town, for meta reasons. That's an argument. I have not over-inflated your argument to more easily take it down (which is the strawman fallacy); I have argued that your conclusion does not follow from your premises.

Yeah, I said I thought she was town when you asked.

The strawman is this:
Percy: Kmd, what are your thoughts on Zazie?
Kmd: I think she is town.
Percy: You are defending her, buddying up to her, and saying "trust me, she is town". That's scummy.

Don't think you said that? I can quote it if you really want me to.

According to Zaz, who I see as town, you don't take strong stances as scum, but you do as town. Now, of course, this meta becomes useless after this game because you are aware of it, but it's still there now.

Oh, hilaire. You didn't even read the posts, you just trusted in almighty ZazieR! This is why I hate meta arguments - no-one bothers to check them. This was my second post in Suzumiya Haruhi Mafia, where I was scum up to my eyeballs. I'd call that taking a stance, wouldn't you?

Ok, you're right. You took a stance there and that was the same game she pointed to. Multiple scum groups change everything. I will not consider that game to point to any kind of meta for here.

To summarize my case against Kmd:
(1) His RVS vote was not pro-town. His explanations of his reasons for voting in such a manner have been weak.
(2) He has accused me of IIoA, OMGUS, strawmanning and "not taking a stance". All of these are demonstrably false.
(3) He himself has engaged in strawmanning, misrepresenting my arguments and establishing false dichotomies.
(4) He voted me for meta

that he hasn't even read

.
(5) His buddying up to ZazieR unnecessary, overblown and unwarranted.

1. So I'm scum for doing something I do regardless of alignment?
2. IIOA was the wrong term. The point was valid though. OMGUS and Strawmanning were valid. Not taking a stance was valid when I pointed it out.
3. LOL! Any backing for this? Or are you just trying to sound impressive?
4. I actually have a lot more reasons to vote you than "meta". I actually just dismissed that point.
5. Buddying by saying I thought she was town. This is getting kind of funny.

I wish I could vote you again. I would.

-------------------

Sorry guys, didn't get through much. Still like my Percy vote though. Will read the rest ASAP.

[kirroha]

Picking up the prod again, but I'm sorry if I can't post much. I'm stuck between school and beta-testing a game, so I won't have much time. I'll try to get a proper post up ASAP.

However, everyone - I don't think we should rush. I won't let you all lynch Percy without enough proof. After reading some of his posts I really feel that he's a townie. I don't think he's scum. We shouldn't waste a lynch, especially when they are so precious now. THAT'S WHY I WON'T LET YOU ALL LYNCH PERCY.

[ZazieR]

Will be leaving soon (conecrt). Sorry for my inactivity lately. Things have happened...

[Korts]

I could be wrong, but I like to think that I've played enough games with her to be able to tell. And she looks how she usually does as town. (Thought I responded to this already, but it doesn't look that way.)

Stop being so vague and elaborate on what she looks like usually as town and what she looks like in this game. If you can't do so, it will be assumed that you are either buddying up or protecting a partner.

However, everyone - I don't think we should rush. I won't let you all lynch Percy without enough proof. After reading some of his posts I really feel that he's a townie. I don't think he's scum. We shouldn't waste a lynch, especially when they are so precious now. THAT'S WHY I WON'T LET YOU ALL LYNCH PERCY.

This post makes me want to lynch Percy. Also, the fact that he doesn't reply to me in our QT. PERCY PLEASE DO SO

The other likely paradigm is Kmd/Zazie. Note that Zazie more or less ignores Kmd's meta bias in her favor; there is also Kmd's initial blind trust in Zazie's meta read on Percy, with Kmd apparently never looking into it himself.

Thing is, Percy is making a fair amount of sense in his arguments, and Kmd's replies are mostly patronizing or vague, and based more on convincingly confrontational behaviour than sound logic.

unvote, vote: Kmd

All aboard!

[Kmd4390]

So by that you mean if a person likes jumping on wagons in every game regardless of alignment, it is not a valid reason? Does that mean that we have to properly review the games that the people have played in before stating something?

Actually, it

does

help to have meta on players. For example, Zwet (who I'm sure you've seen on MS) loves to hammer players he may or may not find scummy regardless of alignment. Very annoying and unhelpful, but it's his meta.

The big thing that jumps out at me (and I know it has already been spoken about) is KMD defending Zazie.

as no reason to

yet he is. Now, this could be a few things...friends playing together and wanting to believe each other, a Scum buddying up with a Town or a Scum defending his partner. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now but,

FOS KMD

Actually, the reason is that I was asked my read. My read is that she is town. She tends to ask questions as town where as scum she makes more definitive statements. I'm seeing more questioning and having fun, which she mostly does as town. (Yes, she seems to have fun as scum too, but more as town. The zombie thing is what I mean here.)

Now something interesting to note...in our private conversations, kirroha
did not say that she was Town. I'm not saying that this means that she is Scum but, it is interesting to me seeing as I'm not sure as to her alignment.

This almost looks like a forced "lover attack" after our previous discussions about how attacking your lover is a likely towntell.

3. If Kmd were scum, he's either lying/buddying or simply buddying. If he's town, then he's claiming access to knowledge that he simply doesn't have.

I didn't claim access to knowledge. I claimed a town read.

As to meta, I generally am against it, but there are certain things that you can look for. In a newbie game that I replaced into, SensFan (pretty well known, long time *good* player) self voted. Obviously, we thought it was scummy, but his meta was such that he does odd things when he's town. We stopped suspecting him, and he turned out to be town when he was NK'd. Meta can be useful, just that people have to pay attention.

TBH, I don't think this is a good example. Someone doing "odd things" as town doesn't make scumtells null. More specific things, maybe. But "odd things", no.

However, everyone - I don't think we should rush. I won't let you all lynch Percy without enough proof. After reading some of his posts I really feel that he's a townie. I don't think he's scum. We shouldn't waste a lynch, especially when they are so precious now. THAT'S WHY I WON'T LET YOU ALL LYNCH PERCY.

Um, what? Won't

let

us? Pretty strong defense here. How do you see him as so townie? I don't think you would defend your buddy so blatantly, but maybe I'm wrong.

Stop being so vague and elaborate on what she looks like usually as town and what she looks like in this game. If you can't do so, it will be assumed that you are either buddying up or protecting a partner.

I'm not saying you can't go after her if you think she is scum. I just said my read on her is town. That's all.

Why am I not being accused of defending you, Korts? I called you town too.

This post makes me want to lynch Percy. Also, the fact that he doesn't reply to me in our QT. PERCY PLEASE DO SO

This is interesting. He is posting pretty actively here, but he's avoiding your QT?

Did you ask a question that would make scum uncomfortable? Was he replying before or has he been relatively quiet there all game?

The other likely paradigm is Kmd/Zazie. Note that Zazie more or less ignores Kmd's meta bias in her favor; there is also Kmd's initial blind trust in Zazie's meta read on Percy, with Kmd apparently never looking into it himself.

I dismissed the meta point when I looked at the game.

[MiteyMouse]

kirroha and I have been using our quick topic...when we're around. With me getting sick and her mid exams, neither of us have been posting much of anything there as of late.

[Amished]

@Kirroha: Does that mean you know that Percy and Korts are both Townies?

@KMD: The "odd things" that SF did were all noticeable and rather different. Self voting, quick L-1's, stuff like that that generally are obvscum tells he consistently and only did while town. It was always just one action, but it was always an extreme one that occurred. So in some cases meta can be helpful. I also fall more on your side of the argument about meta too. I'll admit I don't have the most experience, but there are times where I just get a feel about somebody that I've played with before that just isn't right and I'll infer something about that and I don't see why people are jumping on that as much as they are. There are definitely gut players and logic players, and most are a mix of the two. Both styles are effective, and if it's worked before why knock it?

Where'd DDD go? >_>

[Kmd4390]

Fair enough, Amished.

I thought the example you provided was similar to excusing scummy actions by players with intentionally anti-town metas. I see that that is not the case.

[Amished]

Yea, it was always only one extreme action to move things out of the RVS stage, and the rest of the time he was just his normal self.

[Percy]

Will post soon, Mother's Day today so I'll post when I get back.

Korts, I posted in the QT.

[kirroha]

@Kirroha: Does that mean you know that Percy and Korts are both Townies?

I don't know about Korts, but it's true that my suspicions have lessened a lot on him, and I've forgot to

Unvote

in the last post.

Percy is the towniest player to me thus far. I really don't know why you all are so eager to lynch him at the beginning. Lynches are very precious to us in this setup. We really can't waste it. That's why I won't let you all lynch him.

[Amished]

Percy is the towniest player to me thus far. I really don't know why you all are so eager to lynch him at the beginning. Lynches are very precious to us in this setup. We really can't waste it. That's why I won't let you all lynch him.

I guess the question then becomes what are you doing to show why you think he's townie, or on the flipside, how would you stop us from lynching him? Clearly with this setup it'll be hard to lynch *anybody* as if the lover doesn't want to die, we'll need 5 out of the 6 other people to vote for him.

[Kmd4390]

@Kirroha: Does that mean you know that Percy and Korts are both Townies?

I don't know about Korts, but it's true that my suspicions have lessened a lot on him, and I've forgot to

Unvote

in the last post.

Percy is the towniest player to me thus far. I really don't know why you all are so eager to lynch him at the beginning. Lynches are very precious to us in this setup. We really can't waste it. That's why I won't let you all lynch him.

You seem pretty overly defensive of Percy. And to just drop the case like that.

I'd say you are scum with either Percy or Korts. Probably Percy because Korts looks ridiculously townie.

-------------

Amished, are you saying you wouldn't vote me if you thought I was scum? Because I'd sure as hell vote you if you were scummy. I know that if you are scum, I can't win unless I die. So if I thought you were scum, I'd push that lynch in a second. Fortunately for you though, I currently see a Percy/Kirroha scum team.

[Amished]

(Hypothetical, not necessarily what I believe): Say Korts is scum and just doing a great job of hiding it. (Or even if Korts is town and he views Percy to be pro-town) He won't vote Percy, Percy won't vote himself. We need 5 to lynch out of the remaining 6 players, and kirroha has stated that she will not vote Percy. Therefore we need 5 out of the 5 remaining to vote for him.

So 2/3rds of the randomly generated set-up (if not looking at actions) Korts should not vote for his partner (korts-townie/percy-townie and korts-scum/percy-townie).

Why I said it in the first place is that Korts obviously views you to be scummy (hence the vote) and is suspicious of Kirroha, so not as suspicious of Percy. At least that's how it looks to me. If I thought you were scum, I'd vote you for outing scum, and allowing me to free up some time for a different game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Where'd DDD go? >_>

Work and then was out and about for most of the last two days.

Percy's arguments about me are junk. I made clear the original reason for my vote clear in a back and forth with kirroha. And my reasons for sustaining my vote might not have been original (though I'm pretty sure I originated some of them), but that doesn't mean they aren't valid. In fact considering Amished generally agreed with my post and no one has said, "Gee Danny I really think you're grabbing at straws there" means that my arguments aren't invalid.

However, I think Percy/kirroha simply doesn't make much sense. Kirroha's reaction is so blatant and extreme and I just can't see that making sense from a scum perspective.

As for the QT question, ZazieR and I haven't used it basically at all. I disagree with Amished's logic however. If I have any questions or thoughts that are relevant they should be looked at by everyone. It's not that I (I can't speak for ZazieR on this matter) have something to hide, but that I think it's better for the town if everything is done out in the light of day where everyone can see and evaluate it.

[Percy]

1. Are you saying that if Kmd was lynched and flipped scum, you'd be more inclined to believe Zaz was town? I don't understand how else "good for us" can be taken.

Or we get a scum lynched, which is good for us.... >_>

You missed my point. Why is it good for us

for Kmd to say that ZazieR is town

, if he is scum and she is town?

Therefore we need it, but we should get out of it as soon as possible. Is that really that hard to understand?

Not at all. I understand why people don't like the RVS, and I understand why people may want to get out of it quickly. I just think it has its uses, and liking the RVS is not a scumtell.

Personally I'd be somewhat suspicious if people weren't using their quicktopic as that would show me that they have something to hide.

I disagree. I didn't use my quicktopic because there's a 50% chance Korts is scum (from my perspective). Why should I give the scum additional information and listen to their misdirection? I've thought about it, though, and it actually makes sense to use your quicktopic - inconsistencies can emerge, which you can pick up on etc., and if they're town, then you should be talking to them! So I'll start using my quicktopic.

Does my early game playstyle that I use and consider effective in most of the games I play make me scum here? How the hell does that make sense?

Sure, you're sticking to a meta. That doesn't mean it's not a meta that you've established to help you be scum.

Oh, and you're right. I've played +/-70 games and don't know OMGUS when I see it.

Oh, argument from authority now. You've played 70 games? Then I must be wrong! I am so sorry, mafia master!

OMGUS is voting for someone who is voting you. I don't care whether you're voting for me, and I've built up a case that is more than "I don't like him because he's voting for me". If you continue to characterise it as such, you are strawmanning my argument. Hell, you even try to characterise my reasons for voting you in a completely different manner just after you say this:

But now you are voting me later in the game over this same issue. And this is after I have called you scum and Korts is your lover. If you are scum, you obviously won't want Korts lynched. And you don't want someone who is suspicious of you alive. So you go back to this old point that you took no stance on, and even said meant nothing. And you use it to vote me.

I did take the early game with a grain of salt. I thought you may be jokevoting, but I also wanted to give you a chance to actively participate in the RVS. You didn't. You continued to defend an indefensible position. That's why I voted you.

Also, Korts is in no danger now. I don't think that had anything to do with my actions. Do you?

So it's crap for my read on a player to be that I think she is town? Ok.

I'm pretty sure of it. What is wrong with that?

I'm going out of my way to defend her by saying I think she is town when a player asks me for my read on her? Interesting. Guess I should have ignored the question, right? That's pretty protown.

Every one of these sentences is crap.
1. It's not bad to have a town read. That's not what you said. You said you were

very sure

.
2. You have no reason to be so sure. I don't care what your meta is - if you've played in a lot of games, it's just as possible that Zaz has learnt how to fake it just for you.
3. Once again, I am not objecting to you answering the question that I asked. I've corrected you once on this, so there it is again. I'm objecting to your answer. Why are you "going out of your way" to defend Zaz? The fact that you think this is necessary or desirable on Day 1 is incredibly suspicious.

The strawman is this:
Percy: Kmd, what are your thoughts on Zazie?
Kmd: I think she is town.
Percy: You are defending her, buddying up to her, and saying "trust me, she is town". That's scummy.

Let's try it with quotes, rather than with your ridiculously biased "summary", shall we?

@Kmd: What is your opinion of ZazieR's play so far?

No read yet, but I respond as I read and I see that she has posted after this post. I'll answer your question at the end of my post.
...
Percy, I'm very sure Zaz is town. She is questioning like she normally does as town.

Oh, I'm

very

happy with my vote on you. Why on earth are you defending ZazieR, given that she's not under threat at all,

and

using meta that cannot possibly tell us anything? Even if I concede that she's playing how she normally plays, she's a smart player and could easily fake her meta. This comment basically boils down to "trust me, she's town", and that's not unnecessary at this point, and also a crap argument. This is much worse than kirroha's buddying up to me.

Hopefully that makes things a little clearer for you. I didn't misrepresent your argument - you said "I am very sure she's town because of her meta". I think that's crap.

To summarize my case against Kmd:
(1) His RVS vote was not pro-town. His explanations of his reasons for voting in such a manner have been weak.
(2) He has accused me of IIoA, OMGUS, strawmanning and "not taking a stance". All of these are demonstrably false.
(3) He himself has engaged in strawmanning, misrepresenting my arguments and establishing false dichotomies.
(4) He voted me for meta that he hasn't even read.
(5) His buddying up to ZazieR unnecessary, overblown and unwarranted.

1. So I'm scum for doing something I do regardless of alignment?
2. IIOA was the wrong term. The point was valid though. OMGUS and Strawmanning were valid. Not taking a stance was valid when I pointed it out.
3. LOL! Any backing for this? Or are you just trying to sound impressive?
4. I actually have a lot more reasons to vote you than "meta". I actually just dismissed that point.
5. Buddying by saying I thought she was town. This is getting kind of funny.

1. Just because you do it all the time doesn't make it any less scummy.
2. I have addressed this in this post, I feel.
3. You did it in the last post I responded to, and pointed it out then. You did it in the post I'm responding to now.
4. The point was that you didn't read it, but used it as a motivation to vote for me.
5. Telling someone they're town and saying that you trust them is buddying up. How else would you do it?

I didn't claim access to knowledge. I claimed a town read.

No you didn't. You said more than "I have a town read", and you know it!

I dismissed the meta point when I looked at the game.

That doesn't change the fact that you were willing to believe it. Scum don't have to read closely or pay much attention, they just need to apply pressure in the right places. That's exactly what you're doing, and I've caught you doing it.

kirroha and I have been using our quick topic...when we're around. With me getting sick and her mid exams, neither of us have been posting much of anything there as of late.

Mitey, you seem to be claiming sickness in the games you're playing in, so I'm inclined to believe you. However, any idea when you might be able to be active again?


kirroha is saying that she won't let me be lynched. She has a town read of me, and doesn't think I should be lynched. The case against me is pretty garbage, after all. I'm more concerned as to her certainty than her "I will stop you" talk (which is clearly, CLEARLY exaggeration), but I get uneasy whenever anyone defends me or says they have a town read of me.

I made clear the original reason for my vote clear in a back and forth with kirroha.

Oh, you did? Care to quote it for me?