Open 142: True Love (Game Over) before 784

[Amished]

In the case of KMD-scum and Zaz-town, KMD saying that he thinks that Zaz is town both makes him look more suspicious, and also is telling the truth about a townie. I fail to see how this is not beneficial.

And hating the RVS and therefore doing the same thing every RVS isn't exactly a scumtell either.

@DDD: But Kirroha's reaction towards Percy also doesn't make much sense from a townie perspective. There's no way to be that certain about another player's alignment, and then to be that adamant about somebody's alignment that you don't know doesn't make any sense to me either.

Most of the topics that we're talking about in our QT are irrelevant, or weak enough to not bother with bringing them up here as there's little background to any points that we've made, and would easily get ripped apart. However, with Percy also seeing where I'm coming from, looking for slips in a more one-on-one setting is beneficial, and can help you determine the alignment of your partner.

(Just as an example of some of the irrelevant bits in our QT: We have an avatar bet going on. I fail to see how that's especially useful in game). Also, as much as I want to be a logical player, I also go by feel a lot, and getting a feel for my partner is extremely useful to me, but I don't know how useful that would all be to you as my feelings almost certainly will differ from yours or anybody else's.

[MiteyMouse]

I'm sorry everyone...I'm starting to feel much better and and trying to get caught up on my games. I'm here now and reading...I will be back soon to post some thoughts.

[MiteyMouse]

First off

unvote

since it appears that we are out of the random voting stage, my random vote is not really necessary.

I'm kind of posting about things as I reread so there may be some overlap or things that have already been addressed.

I know some disagree with this but, when kirroha said that she wanted to believe what I was saying and believe that I'm Town, I feel the same way mostly. I want to be able to trust her because she is my plutonic partner (hehehe) and we can chat outside of here and that is a huge bonus if both of the pair are Town. I however also, have a natural inclination to not trust her seeing as, I know I'm Town so there is a 50/50 shot that she is not. I also find that the QT forum chats are really good seeing as, I can talk with her in a bit more informal setting and try to get a handle on her alliance. I'm not sure that I have a read yet but, I think that it's a bit more likely that the slips (if there are any to be had) will take place in the QT.

HOHUM: are we able to quote our QT threads or PMs with our partner here?

You may post the content of your QT threads at your own discretion

The part that I agree with kirroha on is that I'm finding it hard to trust my partner...though, I really want to!

The whole Korts/kirroha thing is really interesting to me. I'm thinking that these two are trying to create distance by going after each other in the main thread. I know that kirroha voiced some suspicion of Korts in our thread but, backed down pretty quickly when I said (basically) that I was concerned that Korts was more likely to be a Town player that's taking some heat and looking Scummy as, opposed to being Scum. There is one post that kirroha states that "Korts was the one who nitpicked my post at first." This just seems to be trying to put the focus back on Korts...I'm not sure what I'm getting at here but, something seems off in their interactions with each other.

I'm wondering how I got so much suspicion on me...I have barely posted.

[Korts]

I'm not saying you can't go after her if you think she is scum. I just said my read on her is town. That's all.

Normally I wouldn't have a problem with you refusing to reveal a towntell. But you cite Zazie's meta as proof of her alignment--you won't give scum any hints on how to act by showing her specific towntells; on the other hand, if you don't provide the specifics so that others can research as well, your case for her innocence will necessarily seem bullshit. You may not think you are able to identify this apparently strong tell, but you should try.

Your evasive answers aren't helpful here.

Did you ask a question that would make scum uncomfortable? Was he replying before or has he been relatively quiet there all game?

We didn't talk at all before I tried to engage him in discussion. He's replied, so my post served its purpose.

The other likely paradigm is Kmd/Zazie. Note that Zazie more or less ignores Kmd's meta bias in her favor; there is also Kmd's initial blind trust in Zazie's meta read on Percy, with Kmd apparently never looking into it himself.

I dismissed the meta point when I looked at the game.

That is irrelevant. The fact that you initially trusted blindly in Zazie's judgement--which seemed especially damning, and thus should've warranted criticism rather than instant agreement--implies some sort of connection.

But my faith in the kirroha-Percy axis is renewed. I'm prepared to vote Percy, pending on unspecified parameters which I am expecting to resolve soonish. If he flips scum, I trust town to carry on with a kirroha lynch.

Those calling kirroha's blatant outrage at the prospect of a Percy lynch should take into account the scale of her prior scumtells. It may be out of proportion, but I don't think it's unthinkable that scum would be so blatant.

I am not really liking that Mitey seems to want to throw suspicion on kirroha and me simultaneously in a very offhanded way.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: But Kirroha's reaction towards Percy also doesn't make much sense from a townie perspective. There's no way to be that certain about another player's alignment, and then to be that adamant about somebody's alignment that you don't know doesn't make any sense to me either.

It could be town-kirroha's overly emotional version of the same thing I did in the last game we were in together and we were both townies in that game (in which case it doesn't speak to Percy's alignment). And it could be scum kirroha putting serious WIFOM into the situation figuring she either looks right if town-Percy gets lynched or if she gets lynched then town Percy is the "obvious" (mis-)lynch and at least she gets her partner into LYLO. I think that it's just too insanely risky for a scum/scum pair to do that.

[Amished]

You weren't that emotional though in that game DDD, and I never said anything quite so outrageous.

If you had to pick one situation for them what would it be? Kirr-scum/Percy-town, Kirr-town/Percy-scum/both town?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

You weren't that emotional though in that game DDD, and I never said anything quite so outrageous.

If you had to pick one situation for them what would it be? Kirr-scum/Percy-town, Kirr-town/Percy-scum/both town?

Sure, but not everyone is the robot I am and since I don't have past experience with Kirroha I don't know if such tone is the status quo or a tell of some kind.

Kirr-scum/Percy-town looks most correct to me. Everything about Kirroha, including the overly emotional post screams scum, since I have a hard time seeing that action in the light of scum/scum that suggests to me that Percy is less likely to be scum (at least in conjunction with kirroha). If I was ranking potential kirroha partner's they'd go...

1) kmd, 2) ZazieR, 3) Percy, 4) Amished 5) Korts

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I made clear the original reason for my vote clear in a back and forth with kirroha.

Oh, you did? Care to quote it for me?

Well I was purposefully being vague and bandwagoning to see what reactions it would garner, unfortunately no one reacted to it at all.

Oh... does that mean your vote on me was just put to see if the scum will come and wagon me as well?

That was amongst many possibilities of things that could've happened, yes.

[Kmd4390]

However, I think Percy/kirroha simply doesn't make much sense. Kirroha's reaction is so blatant and extreme and I just can't see that making sense from a scum perspective.

Too scummy to be scum is a terrible argument. This comes close to that. Being "so blatant" is not a towntell.

Sure, you're sticking to a meta. That doesn't mean it's not a meta that you've established to help you be scum.

Nobody ever called it anti-town before Korts. Not once. I didn't think anyone here even

knew

that meta. How would it help me as scum coming into this game?

Oh, argument from authority now. You've played 70 games? Then I must be wrong! I am so sorry, mafia master!

How fucking dense are you? Did I tell you to do anything? No. I said I know what OMGUS is by now.

You said the early game doesn't mean much. I vote you. After you had said that me voting someone else would be the protown move, you decide to vote me for my early game, which you didn't have a problem with before, after I voted you. Of course you won't admit it's OMGUS, but it is. (I also have a theory that OMGUS can happen subconsciously and after someone votes you, you start to see them as suspicious unintentionally for that reason, but I won't get into that here.)

I did take the early game with a grain of salt. I thought you may be jokevoting, but I also wanted to give you a chance to actively participate in the RVS. You didn't. You continued to defend an indefensible position. That's why I voted you.

Also, Korts is in no danger now. I don't think that had anything to do with my actions. Do you?

And I'm using authority. It's indefnsible (is that a word?) why? Because you said so?

And no, I don't think Korts has anything to do with your vote on me. You voted me because I am an immediate threat to your game. Because I caught scum, and if I'm dead tomorrow, maybe you, or at least your buddy, will still have a chance.

Let's try it with quotes, rather than with your ridiculously biased "summary", shall we?

If you think that looks less scummy on your part that way, I will laugh my ass off.

Hopefully that makes things a little clearer for you. I didn't misrepresent your argument - you said "I am very sure she's town because of her meta". I think that's crap.

Ok. That was my read. You think my read is crap. That's fine. Why is Zazie scummy then? Why haven't you expressed suspicion on her? Seriously, unless you either think she is scum, or you think it benefits me as scum to say I think she is town, I think you should drop this.

1. Just because you do it all the time doesn't make it any less scummy.
2. I have addressed this in this post, I feel.
3. You did it in the last post I responded to, and pointed it out then. You did it in the post I'm responding to now.
4. The point was that you didn't read it, but used it as a motivation to vote for me.
5. Telling someone they're town and saying that you trust them is buddying up. How else would you do it?

1. It makes it a null tell.
2. Ok. Agree to disagree then. I think my arguments were valid for reasons I stated. You think they aren't.
3. Where?
4. I didn't vote you on meta alone. I said that the meta added to the already existing case. With the meta dismissed, that addition is dismissed as well. Everything else is still there.
5. Seriously, you asked me my read. I looked closer and she seemed to be questioning as opposed to giving statements. That is her normal town game.

No you didn't. You said more than "I have a town read", and you know it!

"I am very sure she is town" was all I said until you attacked that much. Most everything I have said about Zazie being town was in response to you. I have not overblown anything. I've just answered crap attacks from scum.

What knowledge did I claim? And when? Quote it.

That doesn't change the fact that you were willing to believe it. Scum don't have to read closely or pay much attention, they just need to apply pressure in the right places. That's exactly what you're doing, and I've caught you doing it.

Actually, scum should pay more attention than town. They need to know how to control the game. Which players to paint as scummy. You get it though. You are doing a pretty decent job here as scum.

I get uneasy whenever anyone defends me or says they have a town read of me.

Why the fuck are town reads scummy in a game where scum don't even kill?

(Just as an example of some of the irrelevant bits in our QT: We have an avatar bet going on. I fail to see how that's especially useful in game).

This is true.

Normally I wouldn't have a problem with you refusing to reveal a towntell. But you cite Zazie's meta as proof of her alignment--you won't give scum any hints on how to act by showing her specific towntells; on the other hand, if you don't provide the specifics so that others can research as well, your case for her innocence will necessarily seem bullshit. You may not think you are able to identify this apparently strong tell, but you should try.

Your evasive answers aren't helpful here.

Um.

Percy, I'm very sure Zaz is town.

She is questioning like she normally does as town.

That's her specific town playstyle. I gave it in the post where I answered Percy's question. I'm not refusing to do anything.

We didn't talk at all before I tried to engage him in discussion. He's replied, so my post served its purpose.

Wouldn't town use the QT as much as they possibly can?

That is irrelevant. The fact that you initially trusted blindly in Zazie's judgement--which seemed especially damning, and thus should've warranted criticism rather than instant agreement--implies some sort of connection.

There is obviously a connection. That doesn't mean a connection as in we are scum in this game though.

But my faith in the kirroha-Percy axis is renewed. I'm prepared to vote Percy, pending on unspecified parameters which I am expecting to resolve soonish. If he flips scum, I trust town to carry on with a kirroha lynch.

Definitely agree with this.

[MiteyMouse]

HOHUM: are we able to quote our QT threads or PMs with our partner here?

You may post the content of your QT threads at your own discretion

Thank you!

[Amished]

The more I see of Percy and KMD's back and forth the more I both agree with KMD and think that the two of them are not aligned. Percy's arguments seem to be more and more strained as they go along, while KMD is responding .. probably better than I would if I was in his position. As I believe Kort to be townie, that means that it's at least possible that Percy is scum.

@Mitey: What were you thinking of quoting from your QT that you wanted to share/thought was relevant to here?

[Korts]

Hrm.

unvote, vote: Percy

I leave this game in good hands I hope.

[hohum]

Official Vote Count:

Amished(0)
kirroha(1) Dobonair Danny DiPietro
MiteyMouse(0)
Percy(3) ZazieR, Kmd4390, Korts
Debonair Danny DiPietro(1), Percy
Korts(0)
ZazieR(0)
Kmd4390(0)
Not Voting(3) Amished, kirroah, MiteyMouse

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch

[Percy]

I made clear the original reason for my vote clear in a back and forth with kirroha.

You said that "seeing if scum would jump on the wagon" was one of "many" reasons. This is not clear, by any stretch of the imagination.

In the case of KMD-scum and Zaz-town, KMD saying that he thinks that Zaz is town both makes him look more suspicious, and also is telling the truth about a townie. I fail to see how this is not beneficial.

So you agree that it was suspicious?

The part that I agree with kirroha on is that I'm finding it hard to trust my partner...though, I really want to!

Hmmm... You've said things like this before:

I'm having a hard time trusting her but, feel the need to be able to talk pretty openly with her.

Now something interesting to note...in our private conversations, kirroha
did not say that she was Town. I'm not saying that this means that she is Scum but, it is interesting to me seeing as I'm not sure as to her alignment.

I don't know quite what to make of this. It's certainly been mentioned more than it needs to have been mentioned, but:

I'm wondering how I got so much suspicion on me...I have barely posted.

You are lurking hard. If anyone is "not taking stances", it's you (but those who were calling me on it don't seem to be calling you on it...). What is your opinion on the Kmd/Percy situation? What is your opinion of DDD and Amished?

Nobody ever called it anti-town before Korts. Not once. I didn't think anyone here even knew that meta. How would it help me as scum coming into this game?

You may have been able to avoid the RVS, if Korts didn't call you on it.

How fucking dense are you? Did I tell you to do anything? No. I said I know what OMGUS is by now.

By telling me that you knew what OMGUS was, you were implicitly rebutting my defence. I was telling you that it was a crap argument, because it is.

Now you're arguing that it's subconscious OMGUS, something you are aware of, but I'm not (or at least saying that it's a possibility - incidentally, subconscious OMGUS seems like a towntell to me). I'm saying that my case is more than that, and you're being dismissive.

It's indefnsible (is that a word?) why? Because you said so?

Yes, indefensible is a word. And yes, your position is indefensible. Your initial vote meant you avoided the RVS, and you've gone to great lengths to say that it meant nothing. But doing something that means nothing is just the same as doing nothing, so why do it at all?

I am conscious that the original vote reason was not very solid at all. It wasn't OMGUS, but I voted based on your actions and my read of you. Since then, your responses have been scummy, and my case has developed. I would be more than happy to ignore the "jokevote" scenario and still keep my vote on you.

Why is Zazie scummy then? Why haven't you expressed suspicion on her? Seriously, unless you either think she is scum, or you think it benefits me as scum to say I think she is town, I think you should drop this.

Again

with the false dichotomies. My read on ZazieR is pretty null, given that she hasn't posted in ages and I had a null read back when she was posting.

I think your statement that you were "very sure" that she is town was an unsupported, scummy statement. That does not mean that I think ZazieR is scummy, or that I have to establish that to make my point.

I didn't vote you on meta alone. I said that the meta added to the already existing case. With the meta dismissed, that addition is dismissed as well. Everything else is still there.

The point is that you didn't read it!

You just said "oh, that's another point against Percy!" without bothering to do your research. Sure, you retracted your statement when you were caught out, but that doesn't make the initial statement any better.

What knowledge did I claim? And when? Quote it.

That's just the point - there is nothing in the thread to give you a "very town" read.

You

claimed that she was very town and didn't say why, beyond a meta impression. I'm saying that no meta impression can be that strong, and you haven't provided any evidence to show us why we should think she's town.

Actually, scum should pay more attention than town. They need to know how to control the game. Which players to paint as scummy. You get it though. You are doing a pretty decent job here as scum.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Town can only win if they participate and read everything. Scum can just skim and get vibes and pick and choose a few quotes. Good scum should read, but scum can get away with not reading.

Why the fuck are town reads scummy in a game where scum don't even kill?

Have you noticed all the attention kirroha's getting for her read of me? Do you think that her actions should be dismissed? Oh wait, no, you think that the kirroha/Percy axis is great, and that kirroha should be lynched! At least

try

to be consistent.

You also asked me where you strawmanned, misrepped and established false dichotomies. The instances are clearly marked in my posts, including this one.

Percy's arguments seem to be more and more strained as they go along, while KMD is responding .. probably better than I would if I was in his position.

Does this post of mine continue this trend?



@Korts: You voted Kmd, and now you've voted me. Can you explain why?

@ZazieR: Are you still around?

[MiteyMouse]

I was just wondering if we were allowed to post our QTs...just in case something relevant comes up. I would hate to have HoHum mod kill me for posting something that I wasn't supposed to!

See post 159. You quoted the answer. If you can post the content of your QT threads there's no harm in posting links to them for ease, though you may want to consider a copy and paste session if you plan on talking about any specifics so that this game makes sense to readers from a historical perspective. I know this thread won't ever go away but the QT threads themselves may some day.

I really wasn't meaning to lurk. I got pretty sick and then was more focused on my recovery...I am genuinely sorry about that but, you can look into my other games and my lack of posting was universal.

[Amished]

@Percy: Yes, several "points" in your post have me either crying because of the ridiculousness of your points or laughing cause if you're scum you're making it hella easy on us.

Honestly, I don't think it was that suspicious, especially since in the one set of circumstances where it might make you wonder, it's still beneficial. It's like a sprinkle on an ice cream cone. If I see a lot of suspicious behavior out of him, then I could go back and try to add that to a string of suspicions. If I think he's town, the suspicion isn't even there, and he's being honest with his read. I believe it's a null-tell, and it 100% depends on your read of the guy on other points and that one should be dropped. The more you get to know a player, the less you really need to see what they're thinking. With the number of games that they've played together, I don't have a problem with him saying it's his read.

Right now, I think you're grasping at more straws. From an outside perspective *I* can refute all of your arguments fairly easily. That signals to me that it's a weak case, and those are more typically scummy cause they're going after people that are innocent most of the time (obviously leaving out bussing).

@Mitey: Sounds like since you're recovering this seems like a perfect time to catch up and post some opinions about this game.

[hohum]

Sajin replaces ZazieR

[Sajin]

Hello all, reading today will post content soon.

For now:

@KMD still have a town read on me?

[Kmd4390]

Um.

Why was Zazie replaced?

Sajin, I have a town read on you based on Zazie's play, yes.

[hohum]

Because she hasn't posted in this game or picked up her prod. She's active elsewhere on the site. The last time she posted in this game was Saturday Morning. I prodded her on Sunday afternoon before I went to bed. I waited until this morning to send Sajin his role PM, so I gave her more than the alloted amount of time to get in touch with me.

[kirroha]

Will be posting tomorrow or sometime else.

[Korts]

@Korts: You voted Kmd, and now you've voted me. Can you explain why?

Because I think you're scum. The Kmd vote has also been explained already.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

However, I think Percy/kirroha simply doesn't make much sense. Kirroha's reaction is so blatant and extreme and I just can't see that making sense from a scum perspective.

Too scummy to be scum is a terrible argument. This comes close to that. Being "so blatant" is not a towntell.

Agreed, which is why I still believe kirroha to be scum. But when making connections it makes more sense to me and seems likelier that it's a WIFOM trap instead of obvious buddying.

I made clear the original reason for my vote clear in a back and forth with kirroha.

You said that "seeing if scum would jump on the wagon" was one of "many" reasons. This is not clear, by any stretch of the imagination.

No, I voted kirroha to see what the reactions would be. That's a single reason and a fairly clear one. However, there are a full spectrum of possible reactions, scum jumping on a wagon being just one of many reactions. I then kept my vote on her for reasons listed in my ISO #13.

[Amished]

Sajin: What's your perspective on the game so far and using the quicktopic? (btw welcome to the game)

[Sajin]

I am fairly sure 1 of KMD or Percy is scum.

The interchange on 163 screams scum to me from one side or the other.


Also I seem to be getting bad vibes from my partner mostly because he trys to counter a arguement using Wifom. News flash: Any argument that your not 100 percent sure of can be reduced to Wifom. Including all of your buddying talks. Including your likely partner chats. Yet you use this as the basis of your arguments? Why?