semioldguy wrote:
if Yoshi has the same abilities as last game, than I might have been his target last night
MKM I wrote:
Riceballtail's role wrote:
You are Yoshi (Mushroom Kingdom), Mario’s faithful steed. During the day you can double the vote count of
Mario
or
Luigi
, by voting for the same person as they do. This will be done in the real votecount, not the visible votecount. Unfortunately, during the day you are nothing without the help of
Mario
or
Luigi
, so your own vote always counts for 0 in the real votecount.
You have one powerful night action: Swallow. When you use this action on an ally, it will protect him from one fireflower, and when you use this action on an enemy, his votes will count for 0 the next day (of which they will get notified). I will not tell you which of the two happened.
Besides this, you don’t start with any coins, you won’t get new coins and you can’t buy or use items. All items and coins given to you are lost.
You win when everyone who is not on the town’s side is dead.
Are you Mushroom Kingdom?
No.
I'm such a good lover because I practice a lot on my own.
Gorrad claimed Kamek. Kamek has hands. Gorrad claimed no items. If you are town and believe that Gorrad is town, then there must be more than one flavor reason for not being able to buy/use items.
Kast wrote:Unless you subscribe to the belief that retarded players are more likely to be scum, then I don't see how Looker playing like his normal retarded self implicates him as scum. I agree that it would be great if Looker posted as prolifically in this game as in the linked one.
The discussion about Looker was that you said you disagreed with me about him being retarded.
Looker is not retarded as that game proves. Since its an ongoing game, we dont know what this mean yet but it points to he being antitown in this game, therefore making him more probable scum that town.
populartajo wrote:Another good question is that if everyone that has items descriptions in their PMs indeed do have hands.
We already know that not everyone with hands can buy items, if Gorrad's claim is true. But I don't think knowing who does or doesn't have hands is really going to help.
I'm leaning more toward believing Zwet's claim. My previous reasons for disbelieving it have since been pointed out not to be correct. As Kast says, there are games where Buzzy Beetles can have items. The Paper Mario games aren't ones I am familiar with. The Buster Beetles in SMB3 were the only ones I knew of that can use/have items and those ones aren't immune to fire either.
I'm such a good lover because I practice a lot on my own.
Tajo's Post 1230 - Not necessarily; it's a matter of time, commitment, and having the general drive and determination to actually go back and read the entirety of the thread (50 f cking pages!) Either way, I lack that drive. So yea, I'm mentally handicapped this time around.
If anyone has any questions or anything or any posts they want me to look at so they can incriminate and/or lynch me, just let me know. Meanwhile, can I get a
Looker wrote:Tajo's Post 1230 - Not necessarily; it's a matter of time, commitment, and having the general drive and determination to actually go back and read the entirety of the thread (50 f cking pages!) Either way, I lack that drive. So yea, I'm mentally handicapped this time around.
If anyone has any questions or anything or any posts they want me to look at so they can incriminate and/or lynch me, just let me know. Meanwhile, can I get a
VOTECOUNT
?
Blerg. Awesome, Looker.
Are you going to contribute or not?
What about if you claim so we decide how useless you really are?
I will say PRECISELY why I don't believe he's town tomorrow. If that means we lynch him then and off, say, Looker or Ortolan today, so be it. Saying why I don't believe him now costs the town much more than one possibly exposed scum.
I will not assume everyone with blue eyes has Mako poisoning
I will not assume everyone with blue eyes has Mako poisoning
I will not assume everyone with blue eyes has Mako poisoning
@Tajo-
-Based on the game you linked, yes, Looker is capable of being less retarded than he is being now. HOWEVER, you have not addressed why Looker behaving retarded implies that Looker is scum.
Your linked game is not a valid meta reason for suspecting Looker (it is an ongoing game in which his affiliation is unknown).
Again, unless you are claiming that retarded behavior is a scumtell, then showing that Looker is playing as thought retarded does NOT indicate that he is scum.
To be clear, it also does NOT mean he is not scum. It is a null tell.
Why is this angry mushroom man stomping behind me everywhere I go...? U don't even look like the good shroom, either, you look like some shit that'd give me the runs...
Kast wrote:@Tajo-
-Based on the game you linked, yes, Looker is capable of being less retarded than he is being now. HOWEVER, you have not addressed why Looker behaving retarded implies that Looker is scum.
Your linked game is not a valid meta reason for suspecting Looker (it is an ongoing game in which his affiliation is unknown).
Again, unless you are claiming that retarded behavior is a scumtell, then showing that Looker is playing as thought retarded does NOT indicate that he is scum.
To be clear, it also does NOT mean he is not scum. It is a null tell.
Kast, the reason why I think Kast is scum is not precisely "Looker is playing the retarded card here. That means he is scum." Its a part but its not the core.
I think there agree that there are valid reasons to suspect Looker. I don't think all of the reasons for suspecting him are valid. I don't think the retarded point is a valid reason. When I tell you that I don't think that is a valid reason, it does not mean I have suddenly abandoned my position on the other points.
I don't think it is pro-town to press players to claim well before they reach lynch threshold or have pressure on them. I would not personally mind if Looker claims because at least then he will be participating in the game instead of just posting to avoid replacement. I don't think there is enough support within the town to legitimately force a claim from Looker.
Okay, lets make things clear. Im not blurring anything.
You think Looker is scum? Yes or no?
Also, if someone is playing the retarded card when you know that player is not retarded, do you think that means that players is more likely town or more likely scum?
@Tajo-
Yes, I think Looker has exhibited scummy behavior. Specifically, I agree with your assertion that his initial vote could very likely be a bussing or distancing maneuver. I also think his failure to claim whether he has item knowledge or not is extremely suspicious. He promised to re-read and then failed to do so.
I think his lurking is anti-town, but not indicative of scum. I think his being retarded is anti-town but not indicative of scum.
I think his decision to remain in the game while practically telling us that he will not participate and has no intention to participate, but also that he refuses to get replaced is ethically wrong for the game, especially for a large and interesting game like this.
He clearly has no intention of playing to help the town win (although it's possible his attitude is a scum attempt to get away with reckless behavior).
If a someone who I know is not retarded tries to play the retarded card, it would depend on whether their affiliation normally has an effect on whether they play the retarded card, and if so, what that effect normally is.
I think you're turning things around though. Looker seems very much to be naturally retarded and in the game you linked he made (or is making) extreme effort to contribute to the game. He isn't a normally intelligent player who is suddenly playing the retarded card.
If that were this game, it would probably be something to watch out for since it could very well indicate that he is scum and more interested in not getting caught due to his normal stupidity.
You are blurring things. You have tried to claim that my suspicion of Looker is somehow tied to my objection to a specific point against him. They do not directly correlate and should not do so. You also equate calling for a player to claim with being suspicious of that player. That is not a pro-town attitude. There are appropriate times to claim and push for a claim, and there are inappropriate times. This is regardless of whether you personally feel that a player is scum or town.
Kast wrote:There are appropriate times to claim and push for a claim, and there are inappropriate times.
Why do people think mafia should be played like an instruction manual?
You realized what happened when I asked zwet to claim even the time was "inappropriate"? It generated a lot of discussion and information. This is good for the town.
So you agree Looker is scummy. I also think that. The only difference is that you want him to claim in an appropiate time and I want him to claim right now.
What is the difference other than I am way ahead from you?
@Tajo-
Claiming and forcing people to claim is not an inherently pro-town action.
People aren't claiming that mafia should follow an instruction manual. People are telling you that some things don't make sense to do in some situations and things that might be pro-town in some situations might be anti-town in others. Instead of arguing generalities, let's deal with specifics.
There are two players who have expressed clear suspicion of Looker. You assert that it is appropriate to force Looker to claim when there are only two people pressuring him to do so. What do you hope to gain from this push? How does this help the town at all?
-You have reinforced the impression that you are role-fishing.
-Looker has no more incentive to claim than before.
-Looker fails to claim and you find him more suspicious; reinforcing your opinion of him as scum without any valid reasons for doing that.
You deny that there are appropriate and inappropriate times, but your behavior shows that you understand that it isn't always appropriate to push for claims.
-Why aren't you telling other players to claim?
-Why did you drop your mass-claim plan?
-Why didn't you push Zwet to claim from the first moment that anyone suspected him?
-Why weren't you suspicious of Mora and others who were suspicious of Zwet but did not immediately push for his claim?
When you determine that someone is scum, the appropriate response is to lynch them. Part of determining whether they are scum usually involves forcing them to claim. This doesn't have to follow any textbook or instruction manual procedure; but you clearly have the common sense to realize that you don't start off immediately forcing the player to claim. You should also realize that the player in question only needs to claim if they feel that they actually will be lynched without doing so AND that doing so will help the town.
Claiming in this game also has one drawback that is not present in most other games. Roles are NOT revealed on death, and so scum do NOT know what roles townies had in the event of a mislynch. As a rule of thumb, it seems better to avoid a mislynch and let scum learn a townie's role than to get lynched but deny scum that information. But there could well be exceptions.
@Pushing Zwet to claim-
Your assessment that Zwet claiming is definitely a good thing is presumptuous.
There would be discussion regardless of whether Zwet claimed. By focusing discussion on Zwet, you may have distracted the town from other far more meaningful discussion in favor of making everyone realize that Zwet's natural behavior is anti-town.
If Zwet is a townie, and we end up lynching him because some players have strong confirmation bias based on Zwet's natural playstyle, then CLEARLY your pushing him to claim was bad for the town.
If Zwet is scum, but we end up sparing him since we realize he is always erratic and anti-town, then your premature push for his claim may very well have forced people to come to a decision about Zwet before weighing all relevant information.
We may also have ended up sharing a lot of critical information with scum when people evaluated Zwet's claim. Scum will definitely have an easier time crafting false claims after seeing how different townies weighed and evaluated Zwet's claim. They also can now safely ignore Zwet for much of the rest of this game if he really is a townie, and are much more likely to kill powerful townies who can actually hurt them.
Kast, why do you have to post wall of posts to make a point?
Listen, we disagree in mafia gamestyle. Im not trying to convince you. Im trying to catch scum.
I think Looker is scum. I have pushed his case since day 1. When half of the town is being useless and doesnt even participate in the game, then what can we do to scumhunt properly?
Kast wrote:-Why aren't you telling other players to claim?
Because I dont think they are scum.
-Why did you drop your mass-claim plan?
Name massclaim. I havent. The problem is that nobody else supports it.
-Why didn't you push Zwet to claim from the first moment that anyone suspected him?
Because I didnt think he was scum.
-Why weren't you suspicious of Mora and others who were suspicious of Zwet but did not immediately push for his claim?
Because I dont think Mora is scum. Because he and others arent scum for not sharing my playstyle
You think zwet is town/scum or neutral? Did your opinion of him change when you read his claim?
cking pages!) Either way, I lack that drive. So yea, I'm mentally handicapped this time around.