Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I need to think about this position some more. I've been doing lines (not the fun kind) in my brain for a while and I still can't decide what to do.

We have far more options than several of you are assuming, I think. I'm not convinced Qe3 is optimal, obviously.

[sirdanilot]

Ne5? Re3?

thank you mod

[Goatrevolt]

Ne5?

Bxh1

Re3?

Solid, but Qe3 does the same thing and is better.

TCS, I guess an argument can be made for a bishop move protecting the knight and c3 in response to Rc8. I'll have to look at it closer.

[sirdanilot]

Bh3?

[sirdanilot]

wait the knight
Bg2?

[veerus]

So wait, no one else thinks lawrence/goat look scummy for what they did?....

Bg2 is not a terrible move in my opinion and should be considered with Rg1 as a follow up

However, I like Qe3 best with Bd3 as the follow up.

move: Qe3

[Goatrevolt]

So wait, no one else thinks lawrence/goat look scummy for what they did?....

Apparently other people don't consider hammering the best available move to be a scummy play, as crazy as that sounds. The onus is still on you to explain why Re1 was worse than some other move. Saying it is so doesn't make it so.

[veerus]

ok fine..

before the trap was revealed you were of the opinion that Qe3 is better. And it

is

better UNLESS black doesn't see the trap behind Re1. Therefore once the trap was revealed, Qe3 was the hands on favorite. Here's why:

As I mentioned before, the pin on the knight makes c2 a very WEAK place for white and a very GOOD target for black. Rc8 puts so much pressure on white it's insane. Previous answer of c3 no longer works. In addition, the a5-a4 push for black also threatens putting the queen in the corner where she is totally useless. Rc8, a5-a4 are likely even more potent in a combination.

That's why Qe3 was better than Re1. And you seemed to agree with all that when you voted for Qe3. Until the Re1 trap was revealed and thus nullified. So instead of saying, oh well, we missed it, now Qe3 is DEFINITELY the better move because the only redeeming quality of Re1 (the surprise trap) was gone. But no, you and lawrence help speed-hammer the now completely useless move.

And I've seen you play in other games. You are a very good player. Missing this line of thought seems out of character for you... unless it was on purpose.

In the end, the result of this set white back: we wasted a move while black was able to move its king into complete safety. Now we MUST play Qe3 and then deal with defending the c3 pawn. Another delay will bury us and the extra pawn won't mean a thing.

[Goatrevolt]

ok fine..

before the trap was revealed you were of the opinion that Qe3 is better. And it

is

better UNLESS black doesn't see the trap behind Re1. Therefore once the trap was revealed, Qe3 was the hands on favorite. Here's why:

I thought Qe3 was better when I didn't notice the trap. It became worse after I saw the trap,

even though

black knew about it as well. Question for you: When you play chess do you assume your opponent is going to make the best move or not? I'm curious why you seem to think public knowledge of the trap in Re1 somehow affects the value of the move.

As I mentioned before, the pin on the knight makes c2 a very WEAK place for white and a very GOOD target for black. Rc8 puts so much pressure on white it's insane. Previous answer of c3 no longer works. In addition, the a5-a4 push for black also threatens putting the queen in the corner where she is totally useless. Rc8, a5-a4 are likely even more potent in a combination.

I agree. c2 is vulnerable.

That's why Qe3 was better than Re1. And you seemed to agree with all that when you voted for Qe3. Until the Re1 trap was revealed and thus nullified. So instead of saying, oh well, we missed it, now Qe3 is DEFINITELY the better move because the only redeeming quality of Re1 (the surprise trap) was gone. But no, you and lawrence help speed-hammer the now completely useless move.

No, it's not useless. It's a free move. Can you say with a straight face that you think black was happy to move Kh8? I've explained this now a few times. Look at my analysis for us to move Qe3 today. We move Qe3, and when black moves Rc8, we have Bd3.

And I've seen you play in other games. You are a very good player. Missing this line of thought seems out of character for you... unless it was on purpose.

In the end, the result of this set white back: we wasted a move while black was able to move its king into complete safety. Now we MUST play Qe3 and then deal with defending the c3 pawn. Another delay will bury us and the extra pawn won't mean a thing.

No, this is just you exaggerating the "futility" of our position. Look at these two positions. You pick which one is better and get back to me.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 Rc8 20. Bd3

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Qe3 Rc8 19. Bd3

[Lawrencelot]

@Max: whether this game is really mafia or not doesn't matter, it started and we can't change it while it is on-going.

@veerus: I'm not going to defend myself as I think we should just continue our chess game, not start lynching.

On to the chess game. I prefer to let our queen stay where she is, she is attacking two pawns which makes it harder for black to develop his pieces. I think for me the options are Bg2 and Re3. I don't know which one I like more.

@Goatrevolt: Rc8 isn't a big threat, we can move our c pawn ahead if that happens, or am I missing something? Not that it's a nice position for white.

[Abstract Actuary]

Re1 was not the optimal move if the trap wasn't in play. I understand your point that it was basically a "free" move since black had to move their king. But really it gave black the free move to move their king to safety and it didn't really gain us any tempo, since we will likely have to move our rook back to c1 very soon anyway. In the two positions shown above (with and without Re1, the one where we didn't play Re1 is better. Their king is still somewhat vulnerable and our rook isn't out of position (it will need to be back on the queen side). Also you assume that we would have played Qe3 instead, which was not a foregone conclusion and likely wasn't the best move in that situation.

Re1 was not optimal after the trap was revealed. It was probably our 4th best move or so. See my post from earlier in that day for details.

I don't want to have to play c3. That would severely weaken our pawn chain and strengthen their pawn chain at the same time. Both of those would result in a much more dangerous position for our king, as well.

It seems the Qe3 crowd is worrying a little too much about c2 and forgetting about the pin on the knight. If they wanted to attack c2, they didn't have to move their bishop to e4. In fact, I doubt they even noticed the weakness of c2 until we brought it up here.

What is our response to g5?

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5

[sirdanilot]

wait.

Bh3 is better than Bg2 for offensive purposes. Bf5 would be a key position eventually to prevent g5 with Bxg6e.p.?

sorry just ranting. still Bh3 looks fine, but Bg2 as well

[Goatrevolt]

What is our response to g5?

Ugh. That move might mean I actually was wrong about Re1 (though not for the reasons veerus suggests). I'm not seeing an immediate answer to it.

Unmove

, while I ponder.

Bh3 is better than Bg2 for offensive purposes. Bf5 would be a key position eventually to prevent g5 with Bxg6e.p.?

Bh3 doesn't really accomplish much offensively. At this point we should be playing defensively anyway. We're up a pawn and can ride that to a win, but we need to stabilize our position first.

Secondly, you can only en passant with pawns. Even if you could en passant with a Bishop, we'd be trading a bishop for a pawn, which isn't in our favor.

[sirdanilot]

Secondly, you can only en passant with pawns. Even if you could en passant with a Bishop, we'd be trading a bishop for a pawn, which isn't in our favor.

? I thought you could do it like in this position:

1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Bb4 3. c4

You could do ...Bxc3 e.p. ? Or only if there's a pawn on b4?

[sirdanilot]

Oh nvm the en passant rule is indeed only with pawns. Please go on, nothing to see here!

[veerus]

Looks like AA said everything I would've.. Goat, scenario w/ the King on g8 is significantly better. Black's king is in a vulnerable position and we're about to get rid of their bishop on e4 and blow the position wide open. We have not yet wasted a move by moving Re1 and have plenty of options still.

To answer your question:

Can you say with a straight face that you think black was happy to move Kh8?

Yes, I think they were. Our current position is terrible. Their king is safe while our problems are not solved because we wasted a move while black fortified their position.

As for g5.. I think the proper response would still be Bd3. It'll likely result in us giving the pawn back to black, but that's the price we pay for Goat/Lawrence scum hammer of a terrible move.

[Indigo Heron]

Firstly, happy scumday to Goatrevolt!

Secondly, I'm sorry for not replying sooner. I'm in Singapore right now (on short notice), and have not had enough time to warn you of the change. I'm really busy right now, busy enough to declare myself incapacitated from all mafia responsibilities right now until May the 20th.

P.S. Getting a Razer Mamba and a Steelseries Siberia headset!!! (at least, I hope)

[sirdanilot]

... hello?

[veerus]

Scum are quiet having done their damage. I have already made my vote.

[Goatrevolt]

Firstly, happy scumday to Goatrevolt!

Thanks. I partied hard to celebrate the momentous occasion.

Looks like AA said everything I would've

Oh please. His explanation for why I was wrong is completely different than your own.

How would Qe3 last turn have been better equipped than Qe3 this turn after Re1, Kh8 in dealing with g5? I'm very interested in your answer here. I'm also interested in why g5 doesn't change your opinion of Qe3 at all. Where you already expecting g5, or are you just going to keep plugging away at what now looks like a worse move?

[veerus]

Of course you're interested.. you need to know if we have a great reply that makes g5 a poor continuation for black.. but for the benefit of the rest of the town, i'll oblige:

No, I was not expecting g5 however my reply to it would still be Bd3. g5 is only dangerous if capture the pawn. After Bd3, nearly whatever happens will result in us likely losing the pawn thereby relinquishing our earlier material advantage. For example:
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. gxf4 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Rxf4

Now, if we DIDN'T make the move you brilliantly forced on us, here's what would happen.
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Qe3 g5 19. Bd3 gxf4 20. gxf4 Bxd3 20. Qe6
Which one looks better now?

Not the continuation that you caused.

[Goatrevolt]

Of course you're interested.. you need to know if we have a great reply that makes g5 a poor continuation for black.. but for the benefit of the rest of the town, i'll oblige:

Right, right, naturally. I'm both a good enough player to know that Re1 was subpar, but I'm a bad enough player to need you to explain to me possible variations here. I'm one of those people who is sometimes an excellent player (when I make a subpar move it's deliberate), but I'm also a terrible player at times who needs people to explain everything to me so I know how to move as black. Right, Veerus? Anything to fit your half-cocked notions that I'm scum, eh?

And why the hell would you "oblige" for the rest of the town? If I'm the only one asking you for this, and you think I'm scum, then you have no reason to oblige my request.

At any rate, I don't think those positions look right, but I haven't analyzed them at any depth yet, so I'll hold off judgment until I do.

[Lawrencelot]

Move: Bg2

g5 doesn't look good

[sirdanilot]

sorry was vla

back

[veerus]

can we either speed this game up or declare it dead.. it holds up a valuable mini spot which is a nagging inconvenience for everyone involved i'm sure