The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[Gorrad]

Yos wasn't killed because we wanted to kill danchao more than him, and after that I was stuck in a situation where I pretty much could not NK without outting myself.

[Battle Mage]

Yos wasn't killed because we wanted to kill danchao more than him, and after that I was stuck in a situation where I pretty much could not NK without outting myself.

so you're saying you effectively could only make 1 NK before you were the last man in your scumteam, and were unable to make your top choice NK?

BM

[Yosarian2]

Yeh, i can see how that would be a pain. One question-if you get attacked under this argument "all the time" how come you often manage to survive to endgame? Clearly this cant be as big an issue as you suggest.

Well, people do try to attack me with it all the time, but it's really not a valid argument for any number of reasons, so it generally dosn't actually work at lynching me, at least not on it's own.

Well, you know, if that is all true, mafia often avoid "the most obvious target" because that person is often doc protected. Docs are pretty common in warewolf games, too. (Well, they're usually called herbalists or healers here, but same thing.)

Hmm, valid point.

(nods) Especally since scum killed off the "Second to most obvioust target", Fonz, who is also a very experenced player, a very effective scumhunter, and who basically everyone thought was pro-town on day 1.

Of course, now that you've made this argument, scum might keep me alive in order to support your "Yos isn't dead so he must be scum" argument. So, thanks, you may have just saved my life.

What was the story with 24 Mafia? You said Fonz didnt want you to be mayor because of that.

Yeah. This was what Fonz said about me becoming mayor:

Because, if he's town, he doesn't need the extra vote to be influential, and you're just painting a big target on his back.

If he's scum: see 24 mafia.

In 24 mafia, I, as scum, managed to get the town to elect me "Director of CTU" on day 1, and then abused the hell out of the powers that came with that office while leading the town. That was the game I won the "best manipulator" award for.

Also, i must hasten to highlight in

ORANGE

the contradiction here. Your story seems to have changed.

It really didn't.

This is what I said day 1:

Yos, can I ask you this... would you LIKE to be mayor?

(shrug) I'd vote myself, just on the general "I know I'm town" principle, but of course if we all do that we get nowhere.

That being said; meh, I wouldn't mind being mayor, but it dosn't really matter. I don't expect it would affect my play much.

I was never opposed to becoming mayor, but I didn't activly persue it either, mostly because I really didn't expect to become mayor in any case. I was not opposed to becoming mayor, in order to avoid keeping it out of scum hands, but I wasn't terribly excited about it.

Besides, if I was scum, why would I have tried so hard to get a very smart pro-town person (Fonz) elected mayor?

I forgot what bemused meant... :'(

Anyway, i do hope that given you fit my conclusions pretty well, you can see why i'm feeling fairly ok with my vote on you atm.
I dont think town-Yos would be so scared of the limelight.

Oh, I'm not scared of the limelight. I just didn't think figting to become mayor would be especally productive.

Also, i might live to regret this, but,

Mod

:

ALL the bloody TIME

BM

Lol. Nice try, but unless the mod is British, I'm not worried.

[Yosarian2]

Yos wasn't killed because we wanted to kill danchao more than him, and after that I was stuck in a situation where I pretty much could not NK without outting myself.

so you're saying you effectively could only make 1 NK before you were the last man in your scumteam, and were unable to make your top choice NK?

BM

Actually, I arranged it so the scum wouldn't be able to kill anyone at all, and especally not me, without giving themselves away. And, espeally, I made sure Gorrad, who was a jailkeeper and who I I suspected, wouldn't be able to do anything at all except jailkeep me, since I had announced in thread I would attempt to vig kill him every night. Breaking smalltown games is fun.

[Gorrad]

Yos wasn't killed because we wanted to kill danchao more than him, and after that I was stuck in a situation where I pretty much could not NK without outting myself.

so you're saying you effectively could only make 1 NK before you were the last man in your scumteam, and were unable to make your top choice NK?

BM

Actually, I arranged it so the scum wouldn't be able to kill anyone at all, and especally not me, without giving themselves away. And, espeally, I made sure Gorrad, who was a jailkeeper and who I I suspected, wouldn't be able to do anything at all except jailkeep me, since I had announced in thread I would attempt to vig kill him every night. Breaking smalltown games is fun.

Aye, what he said.

[Battle Mage]

Well, you know, if that is all true, mafia often avoid "the most obvious target" because that person is often doc protected. Docs are pretty common in warewolf games, too. (Well, they're usually called herbalists or healers here, but same thing.)

Hmm, valid point.

(nods) Especally since scum killed off the "Second to most obvioust target",

Fonz was killed Night 2. Hence, by your argument, he was the "3rd to most obvious target".

Fonz, who is also a very experenced player, a very effective scumhunter,

These sound like pretty good reasons to bump him off.

and who basically everyone thought was pro-town on day 1.

This is a ridiculous assertion to make. Firstly, Fonz was killed Night 2. Secondly, i dont recall any declarations of Fonz being defo town on Day 1. And i dont think anyone had grounds to say for sure that anyone was town at that early stage.

Of course, now that you've made this argument, scum might keep me alive in order to support your "Yos isn't dead so he must be scum" argument. So, thanks, you may have just saved my life.

It's ok, we'll call it quits if you win the game for the town at endgame.

What was the story with 24 Mafia? You said Fonz didnt want you to be mayor because of that.

Yeah. This was what Fonz said about me becoming mayor:

Because, if he's town, he doesn't need the extra vote to be influential, and you're just painting a big target on his back.

If he's scum: see 24 mafia.

In 24 mafia, I, as scum, managed to get the town to elect me "Director of CTU" on day 1, and then abused the hell out of the powers that came with that office while leading the town. That was the game I won the "best manipulator" award for.

And i'd assume that this is why you couldnt afford to be seen to push for the Mayorship here-because any attempt to do so would have been called out by Fonz, who you felt was "very protown".

Also, i must hasten to highlight in

ORANGE

the contradiction here. Your story seems to have changed.

It really didn't.

This is what I said day 1:

Yos, can I ask you this... would you LIKE to be mayor?

(shrug) I'd vote myself, just on the general "I know I'm town" principle, but of course if we all do that we get nowhere.

That being said; meh, I wouldn't mind being mayor, but it dosn't really matter. I don't expect it would affect my play much.

I was never opposed to becoming mayor, but I didn't activly persue it either, mostly because I really didn't expect to become mayor in any case.

Why wouldnt you expect to become mayor?

I was not opposed to becoming mayor, in order to avoid keeping it out of scum hands, but I wasn't terribly excited about it.

Besides, if I was scum, why would I have tried so hard to get a very smart pro-town person (Fonz) elected mayor?

1. Fonz was clearly wary of you. It made a good deal of sense to keep him on side. It stinks of buddying.
2. Obviously, after Mafia 24, you wanted to play in the exact opposite way in order to look protown. That means not trying at all hard to get elected, and indeed, fighting hard to get someone ELSE elected.
3. Fonz was far from confirmed town, much as it might be convenient for you to say otherwise. He was just as lynchable as you or I.

Also, i might live to regret this, but,

Mod

:

ALL the bloody TIME

BM

Lol. Nice try, but unless the mod is British, I'm not worried.

You've lost me. Is that not considered a profanity outside of the UK?

BM

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Also, i might live to regret this, but,

Mod

:

ALL the bloody TIME

BM

Lol. Nice try, but unless the mod is British, I'm not worried.

You've lost me. Is that not considered a profanity outside of the UK?

BM

No, it's not. But should that matter? I mean, would it make a difference if someone swore in German or French?

[Yosarian2]

and who basically everyone thought was pro-town on day 1.

This is a ridiculous assertion to make. Firstly, Fonz was killed Night 2. Secondly, i dont recall any declarations of Fonz being defo town on Day 1. And i dont think anyone had grounds to say for sure that anyone was town at that early stage.

Eh? I said that everyone thought Fonz looks pro-town day 1, not that they had grounds to know for sure. And while that might have been a slight exageration, I don't think anyone attacked him, multiple people said they thought he was pro-town, and he got a bunch of votes for mayor.

From my past experence with Fonz, I thought he was really obvtown on day 1.

Of course, now that you've made this argument, scum might keep me alive in order to support your "Yos isn't dead so he must be scum" argument. So, thanks, you may have just saved my life.

It's ok, we'll call it quits if you win the game for the town at endgame.

It's a deal

What was the story with 24 Mafia? You said Fonz didnt want you to be mayor because of that.

Yeah. This was what Fonz said about me becoming mayor:

Because, if he's town, he doesn't need the extra vote to be influential, and you're just painting a big target on his back.

If he's scum: see 24 mafia.

In 24 mafia, I, as scum, managed to get the town to elect me "Director of CTU" on day 1, and then abused the hell out of the powers that came with that office while leading the town. That was the game I won the "best manipulator" award for.

And i'd assume that this is why you couldnt afford to be seen to push for the Mayorship here-because any attempt to do so would have been called out by Fonz, who you felt was "very protown".

(nods) By Fonz and by anyone else who saw me in 24 mafia, yeah. After that game, I would kind of expect a giant red flag to go up if people saw me trying to get elected on day 1, so I figured it wouldn't be productive to try for it.

Also, i must hasten to highlight in

ORANGE

the contradiction here. Your story seems to have changed.

It really didn't.

This is what I said day 1:

Yos, can I ask you this... would you LIKE to be mayor?

(shrug) I'd vote myself, just on the general "I know I'm town" principle, but of course if we all do that we get nowhere.

That being said; meh, I wouldn't mind being mayor, but it dosn't really matter. I don't expect it would affect my play much.

I was never opposed to becoming mayor, but I didn't activly persue it either, mostly because I really didn't expect to become mayor in any case.

Why wouldnt you expect to become mayor?

Because, again, I figured people like Fonz would oppose it.

I was not opposed to becoming mayor, in order to avoid keeping it out of scum hands, but I wasn't terribly excited about it.

Besides, if I was scum, why would I have tried so hard to get a very smart pro-town person (Fonz) elected mayor?

1. Fonz was clearly wary of you. It made a good deal of sense to keep him on side. It stinks of buddying.
2. Obviously, after Mafia 24, you wanted to play in the exact opposite way in order to look protown. That means not trying at all hard to get elected, and indeed, fighting hard to get someone ELSE elected.
3. Fonz was far from confirmed town, much as it might be convenient for you to say otherwise. He was just as lynchable as you or I.

Eh. He wasn't confirmed town, but I can't imagine he looked very lynchable, especally on day 1; I can't recall anyone offhand being suspicious of him.

Anyway, if I was scum, the last thing I would want to do would be to put the mayorship into the hands of someone who was both a good scumhunter, who looked pro-town, and who is very smart and very unlikely to give the mayorship to a scum if he died.

I kind of see what you mean by the buddying thing, but, meh. Fonz is too smart and too carefulv to easily manipulate with that kind of thing.

Also, i might live to regret this, but,

Mod

:

ALL the bloody TIME

BM

Lol. Nice try, but unless the mod is British, I'm not worried.

You've lost me. Is that not considered a profanity outside of the UK?

BM

Nope, it's not. It's not a word that would be censored on American telivision, for example.

No, it's not. But should that matter? I mean, would it make a difference if someone swore in German or French?

Well, I was speaking in the language "American English", and in the language I was speaking, it is not a swear word.

Anyway, why are people trying so hard to remove my vote here?

[KaivAlt]

Hey kaiv here. Forgot my password/whole family's over here andhogging the computer. might be back late tonight.

- kaiveran

[zwetschenwasser]

BM is the one trying to get everyone to lose their votes.

[Battle Mage]

and who basically everyone thought was pro-town on day 1.

This is a ridiculous assertion to make. Firstly, Fonz was killed Night 2. Secondly, i dont recall any declarations of Fonz being defo town on Day 1. And i dont think anyone had grounds to say for sure that anyone was town at that early stage.

Eh? I said that everyone thought Fonz looks pro-town day 1, not that they had grounds to know for sure.

Speaking personally, i dont recall thinking anyone looked protown on Day 1, with the exception of 1 guy, whose name i forgot (he got killed Night 1). I think this is very weak.

What was the story with 24 Mafia? You said Fonz didnt want you to be mayor because of that.

Yeah. This was what Fonz said about me becoming mayor:

Because, if he's town, he doesn't need the extra vote to be influential, and you're just painting a big target on his back.

If he's scum: see 24 mafia.

In 24 mafia, I, as scum, managed to get the town to elect me "Director of CTU" on day 1, and then abused the hell out of the powers that came with that office while leading the town. That was the game I won the "best manipulator" award for.

And i'd assume that this is why you couldnt afford to be seen to push for the Mayorship here-because any attempt to do so would have been called out by Fonz, who you felt was "very protown".

(nods) By Fonz and by anyone else who saw me in 24 mafia, yeah. After that game, I would kind of expect a giant red flag to go up if people saw me trying to get elected on day 1, so I figured it wouldn't be productive to try for it.

This is exactly what i mean when i say you are afraid of the limelight.

I was not opposed to becoming mayor, in order to avoid keeping it out of scum hands, but I wasn't terribly excited about it.

Besides, if I was scum, why would I have tried so hard to get a very smart pro-town person (Fonz) elected mayor?

1. Fonz was clearly wary of you. It made a good deal of sense to keep him on side. It stinks of buddying.
2. Obviously, after Mafia 24, you wanted to play in the exact opposite way in order to look protown. That means not trying at all hard to get elected, and indeed, fighting hard to get someone ELSE elected.
3. Fonz was far from confirmed town, much as it might be convenient for you to say otherwise. He was just as lynchable as you or I.

Eh. He wasn't confirmed town, but I can't imagine he looked very lynchable, especally on day 1; I can't recall anyone offhand being suspicious of him.

I'm assuming thats why you killed him. But i think you rather overestimated his individual clout in the game.

Anyway, if I was scum, the last thing I would want to do would be to put the mayorship into the hands of someone who was both a good scumhunter, who looked pro-town, and who is very smart and very unlikely to give the mayorship to a scum if he died.

I kind of see what you mean by the buddying thing, but, meh. Fonz is too smart and too carefulv to easily manipulate with that kind of thing.

Apparently not. After the preliminary stages, he seemed pretty hooked by your facade. It really concerns me how highly you rate Fonz's play. I dont think anyone here is questionning that he is a good player, but you seem to have attributed him God-status. Tbh, last time i was scum in a game with Fonz, he declared me certain town. Obviously his presence perturbed you greatly, and now we find that he is dead, along with 1 of the other main candidates for mayorship on Day 1. You are out on a limb here.

Also, i might live to regret this, but,

Mod

:

ALL the bloody TIME

BM

Lol. Nice try, but unless the mod is British, I'm not worried.

You've lost me. Is that not considered a profanity outside of the UK?

BM

Nope, it's not. It's not a word that would be censored on American telivision, for example.

It wouldnt be censored on British television either, but it doesnt mean it isnt considered a profanity. It's in the same kinda league as Zwet's comment. It's worse than 'dang' anyway.

No, it's not. But should that matter? I mean, would it make a difference if someone swore in German or French?

Well, I was speaking in the language "American English", and in the language I was speaking, it is not a swear word.

Anyway, why are people trying so hard to remove my vote here?

American English? lmao
Izzy is right. Not everyone here speaks "American English" as their first language. Some of us don't speak it at all! But that doesnt mean if we swear in "American English" that we wouldnt be punished.

I'd suspect the reason people are trying to remove your vote is one of the following:

1. They dont trust you with a double vote, on a day where that could become critically important.
2. They want to uphold the rules of the game, which you seem to have breached.

I've gotta say, i come under both, but mainly the former. I suspect Izzy is more with the latter, but it's all good.

BM

[Battle Mage]

BM is the one trying to get everyone to lose their votes.

it's pretty logical. I know im town. I dont know your affiliation. Therefore, by removing your vote from play, i increase my individual sway. It's a nulltell. And besides, its kinda the rule for today. I want to play the game fairly thanks. If you don't, you should request replacement.

Funny thing is, i'm almost certain to lose my vote before the day is up. So i'm gonna at least take some of you guys with me!

BM

[zwetschenwasser]

^obvscum

Confirm Fakevote: Battle Mage

[Battle Mage]

^obvscum

Confirm Fakevote: Battle Mage

lol, and you think this is a shining example of why we'd want a player like you to have a vote? xD

BM

[Yosarian2]

Neah, BM's probably town. I thought he was town day 1, and he's acting like town today; he's being agressive, going way out on a limb on basically a paranoid town "Yos is mayor, and he's still alive, he must be scum" feeling , he's putting himself in a place where he'd look really bad when I flip town, and I don't really think he would take risks like that if he was scum. It's just a gut feeling, but I don't think he's all that likely to be scum at the moment.

Anyway, the whole thing with Mufasa seems to have slipped by the wayside here. Yesterday, he said it would be good for the town if he was lynched today, because of some trigger-when-he-gets-lynched ability he was claiming; today, he's saying it wouldn't be good for him to get lynched. Mufasa, why did you change your mind?

[Gorrad]

I agree, I got very strong town-vibes from BM day one. I owe this game a reread. I wasn't keeping up D2, and I should have been.

[zwetschenwasser]

WAAAA.... *crosses arms and pouts*

[Kaiveran]

I'm back, guys. There have been (and still are) some RL circumstances that have hampered my participation in this game. Hopefully they'll be alleviated soon. I think we've had enough replacements already, ya?

Anyways:

If we're gonna lynch Mufasa today, should we be asking for a full claim? I think he's scum, and that any ability he has would hurt rather than help. Maybe this whole soft-claim thing was just a stalling tactic to get him through yesterday, or maybe it's an ability that will do more damage the more people there are or something like that?

I concur. We should get a full claim and analyze it before deciding to lynch him. At first I thought it prudent to test his claim, but then I realized that his role could do anything with this being a large, closed theme game. He could be telling the truth and have a beneficial role for townies, but he also could be anti-town, and anti-town factions usually don't sacrifice themselves unless it gets a good payoff for their team.

@Mufasa in particular:

still waiting on this one.

Well, at least we got a werewolf. Finally.

Still thinking about testing Mufasa's claim. I think we should hear the females out, see if they're aware of any role that might help them.

Well, I haven't caught up but I have always heard the person who speaks up in this manner (congratulating town) is usually scum. Who did you replace? OP is not up-to-date

(@mod: read previous sentence)

I concur. In fact, it's one of my most trusted scumtells.

Vote: Kaiveran

.

Eh, ain't gonna mess with this one. I can tell you're very active and quick to put pressure on any perceived scumminess. I'm just gonna tell you to beware of "trusted" scumtells; one size doesn't fit all, y'know. Plus, it's pretty much been a townie killing-fest until now, so it seems we've been going about this the wrong way in terms of scum-hunting. We should form more solid cases from here on out.

Dad's kicking me off now. Catch y'all later with more.

[Battle Mage]

Neah, BM's probably town. I thought he was town day 1, and he's acting like town today; he's being agressive, going way out on a limb on basically a paranoid town "Yos is mayor, and he's still alive, he must be scum" feeling , he's putting himself in a place where he'd look really bad when I flip town, and I don't really think he would take risks like that if he was scum. It's just a gut feeling, but I don't think he's all that likely to be scum at the moment.

Gee, it must be really nice to be able to APPARENTLY instinctively know who is town, without being considered suspicious...
And i like the way you've left yourself sufficient scope to shift from this position if necessary. Yeh im just a tad bitter that you arent gonna be lynched today-partly down to the fact we only have a handful of people actually playing.

Anyway, the whole thing with Mufasa seems to have slipped by the wayside here. Yesterday, he said it would be good for the town if he was lynched today, because of some trigger-when-he-gets-lynched ability he was claiming; today, he's saying it wouldn't be good for him to get lynched. Mufasa, why did you change your mind?

Meh, i'll look into it today.

BM

[MikeSC6]

Anyway, the whole thing with Mufasa seems to have slipped by the wayside here. Yesterday, he said it would be good for the town if he was lynched today, because of some trigger-when-he-gets-lynched ability he was claiming; today, he's saying it wouldn't be good for him to get lynched. Mufasa, why did you change your mind?

I agree, Mufasa's been far scummier than Yos. We've had a self-vote, a period of lurking on day 1, no consistency in his suspicions, unanswered questions, a very convenient softclaim. On day 2 I only unvoted him based on the condition that he be lynched today and then we'd find out for sure, which now he's against.

As far as I can see, there are three options-

1. We think that Mufasa's a townie with a pro-town power like he says. Then we lynch him- if he's really pro-town, Mafia would nightkill him eventually to prevent this power from being used. Better to have a partial benefit now than try and hold it off until it's at it's most potent, but end up losing it all together.

2. He's anti-town with an anti-town power, and wants to be lynched to use it. Should we attempt to get him nightkilled, and then lynch if he survives the night (we don't want this power to be used, but we'll want to get it out of the way before endgame)?

3. He's anti-town with no power, and we should lynch.

What does everyone think? I'm hovering between two and three. His posts haven't been pro-town, and with regard to his role he's given out enough information that the mafia would know to nightkill him if he was telling the truth, but kept to himself information vital to the town- like the nature of this power.

It does seem slightly suspect that Battle Mage is trying to lose people their votes- makes me quite uneasy. Zwet's "fakevote" I think is a good idea, for people who lose their votes. Removing votes is removing one of the ways to read people.

[Yosarian2]

Gee, it must be really nice to be able to APPARENTLY instinctively know who is town, without being considered suspicious...

(shrug) That's a big part of how I scumhunt, is I sometimes first figure out who looks town, and then vote for someone else. It generally works pretty well, although of course I am wrong sometimes. Just look at those recent games I posted, in mafia lolwat, I used a process of elimination thing on day 2 by going through and eliminating everyone who looked pro-town to me; in mini 728, I knew Fonz was town from the way he acted on a day 1 wagon.

Do you really have a problem with me trying to figure out who looks town and who dosn't, BM? I mean, if you read day 1, there's a HUGE number of people who mentioned that they thought you were looking pro-town or that Fonz was looking pro-town, I'm hardly the only one who said either.

And i like the way you've left yourself sufficient scope to shift from this position if necessary.

(shrug) I could be wrong, of course. I've been wrong enough times in the past about that that I keep an open mind.

Yeh im just a tad bitter that you arent gonna be lynched today-partly down to the fact we only have a handful of people actually playing.

I'm not going to be lynched today because there's absolutly no case against me, as even you admitted.

[Yosarian2]

On a side note: Zwet, why did you vote Dr. Pepper?

You went from this:

Fine.

unvote;
Vote: Dr. Pepper

Giving in to WIFOM that quickly?

to this

Unvote; Vote: Dr. Pepper

*smiles at Kaiveran's post*

The only explination you gave was later when you said:

3rd person reference scumtell and twisting of Dingo's words.

Could you be more specific? Why did you think Pepper was scum? What's the "3rd person reference scumtell"?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Vote Count, Prod check, and Courtesy Check later today.

[zwetschenwasser]

people who refer to themselves in third person during a case on somebody else are more likely scum in my experience.

[Mufasa]

Its been a good 24 hours

Unvote Vote Mr Flay