Mini 767: Cubic Mafia (Game Over!)

[madeofphail]

I do not object to a massclaim.

[caf19]

Wonderful.

Knight, go ahead.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I'm a Town Doctor. I've been protecting people from those nasty peaceful Mafia by exposing them, Clockwork Orange-style, to lots of televisual violence. I've been protecting Beyond_Birthday, but with the continued convenient lack of any results, I'm beginning to wonder.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Two questions:

1) Whom did you protect N1?
2) Whom do you want to go next?

[Knight of Cydonia]

1) N1 I attempted to protect Magnus, but failed - I assume the "Roleblocker" picked me N1, but then moved onto B_B after Day 2. Forgive me for casting aspersions, B_B, but if I had held a "There's obviously a roleblocker" stance, eventually I'd have been asked to clarify that, and then the scum would have outed a PR for free.
2) I would be comfortable with lynching madeofphail or caf19, with caf19 being my preference.

[caf19]

Who should claim next, Knight?

I'll refrain from commenting until everyone has had their turn.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Well, since you're my preferred lynch, I say you claim next.

[caf19]

Well, since you're my preferred lynch, I say you claim next.

Vanilla here.

Trumpet, gogogo.

[Trumpet of Doom]

VT.

madeofphail, you're up.

[madeofphail]

VT, so that leaves B_B, but he already claimed, so what now?

[caf19]

Here are a few initial thoughts:

- I still think the sensible decision is not to lynch BB today. When it comes down to it, the facts state he's the least likely scum. I'm having trouble seeing the scenario where BBscum and Isacc actually made the decision N1 to bus each other to death. If we make it to tomorrow and he's still alive then obviously we'll have to consider the possibilty, but right now I'm hoping we hit the ideal BBtown situation of lynching the blocker today, in which case the remaining scum can't really risk leaving BB alive.

- I have doubts about KoC's claim. Clearly we can't put him in the same 'probtown' category as BB, because a) doctor is a nice claim for scum due to its unconfirmability, and b) BB's claim had tangible results (death of a scumbag). Then there's the way he claimed - the blanket "I've been protecting Beyond_Birthday" without mentioning N1 until prompted to, it doesn't seem very transparent. Also, the "I attempted to protect Magnus" when it was actually Dourgrim who did it, it kinda rubs me the wrong way. Finally, having a doc makes the town seem a tad overpowered.

Those things seem pretty minor in isolation, but added together they are a serious cause for thought...

- I don't really understand where the suspicion of me is coming from - BB's is based on Wifommy analysis of Isacc's post, and KoC hasn't posted a case at all. In fact, KoC didn't really mention me at all before post 529... what's the case, KoC?

[caf19]

Actually, reading over KoC's posts just now, he does seem very scummy... he basically hopped onto every popular wagon. The suddenness of his suspicions is what is really notable.

With only one line (post 426) of suspicion expressed on Sera, he soon goes ahead and L-1 votes for the claim. It's a disproportionate action to his level of suspicion. He then tunnels on Sera until the mod confirmation, at which point he switches to SSK and declares himself willing to hammer (482) - which is rather unexpected because he'd spent most of the day agreeing with and supporting SSK on his Sera case. Again, he hasn't really expressed any extended suspicion of SSK prior to this, apart from post 477 where he basically echoes the case that I'd built up already. Now today he appears to be doing a similar thing with me - I'm apparently his top suspect despite him never having mentioned this before (see post 513, a sort of 'summary post' where he doesn't mention me

at all

).

There appears to be a strong tendency to wait until a townie makes a case on another townie, then jump on it and push it as hard as possible.

I need to reread up on Trumpet and phail, but KoC is a top suspect for now. (next post might not be for a day or two, I'm spending tomorrow in London)

[Trumpet of Doom]

Thank you, caf. And might I also point out that looking at Dourgrim's posts D1, I'm not seeing anything that would indicate "hey, look over here, I'm a roleblock target!"

OTOH, if KoC's scum, he knows how to fakeclaim.

I'm going to have plenty of time to think about this game tomorrow, I'll try to work up a solid analysis then. My main problem is that right now, none of you

really

look obvtown, and to varying degrees I could see a case to be made on any of you four.

[Trumpet of Doom]

All right, here we go.

Pre-massclaim, the roles I thought could still be in the setup were:
Jailkeeper (potentially bastard-mod and thinks he's a doc)
Doc (would require scum RB)
Cop (maybe; would require not only a scum RB, but all innocent results since he hasn't come forward with a guilty - potentially naive?)

More against KoC: In 513, he says:

Trumpet, I don't like your "Either I'm scum, or KoC is scum, therefore KoC is scum" argument. The fact that two scum haven't leapt on suggests that you're hoping some poor townie will also jump on, at which point your buddy hammers. Typical scum LyLo tactic.

Sounds like he's suspicious of me and thinks I'm scum, yes? But then in 529, he says:

I would be comfortable with lynching madeofphail or caf19, with caf19 being my preference.

What happened to his theory that I'm scum trying to get a townie to get on his lynch? And /agree with caf about "where did the caf suspicion come from all of a sudden?" I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the reason he doesn't like the argument I gave at the start of the day is because it's true.

Not to mention, if KoC and I were both town, this game would almost certainly be over unless scum didn't think they'd be on at the same time to pull off a quicklynch. I'd be very happy with a KoC lynch; I'll do my part to get us there.

Vote: Knight of Cydonia

.

Let's see, there was something else I said I would talk about post-massclaim... oh yeah. Here it is.

Furthermore, a role out would only help find scum at this point because it seems to me like all of the town power roles have already been outed.

*headdesk* This game is the reason I added a line to my sig. More on this after the massclaim (which it sounds like you support).

Feels to me like this could be scum trying to tell his partner either "just claim VT" or "if you fakeclaim a PR, you likely won't be counterclaimed." If town says this, scum will really think there aren't any PRs and they can claim one with impunity. If I can't get a KoC lynch, I can take a madeofphail lynch. (I believe I've posted my madeofphail case in various parts earlier; I can pull it all into one post if people need me to.)

[Beyond_Birthday]

I don't think your suspicion of me clears you KoC. In fact, it condemns you. You could have passed over me as "assumed town." But you've "known" there is a roleblocker, but doubted my claim? Further, you don't understand why I'm still alive? You haven't gotten a roleblocker notice, which is why I'm alive. You would have to die or be roleblocked to make your claim plausible.

{b}Pseudovote KOC{/b} <--intended!

Go ahead, talk your way out of this one.

[Knight of Cydonia]

It's called misdirection, B_B. I've already "talked my way out of it", as you put it. I didn't doubt your claim, and I did understand why you were still alive, because I was protecting you. I was hardly going to come out and say "Yeah, there's definitely a roleblocker, and I can totally see why B_B is still alive", now.

[Beyond_Birthday]

But you said that opposite. You drew suspicion on me. And it wasn't until suspicion was drawn on you that you suggested that I was innocent and presented "proof" of this. Since I am alive, you might when the town. You should definitely win me and with only one person not willing to lynch a mafia member, the mafia is safe.

I don't think we should vote you yet, but I put my vote as a "pseudo vote" in good faith.
I know better than to rush into things.

Now, again, explain why attack me? Why draw attention to the fact I'm alive and then say I was scummy? Both are obvious doctor tells. Too obvious and not mere breadcrumb. It really seems odd and unusual to tell mafia "I'm doctor" unless you're faking it. Especially for a player of your experience.

[Trumpet of Doom]

The lack of any results whatsoever since Isaac means either B_B is scum using "blocked" in conjuction with a massive bus to get clear, or town. I'm leaning town, but not discounting all the possibilities.

I've been protecting Beyond_Birthday, but with the continued convenient lack of any results, I'm beginning to wonder.

I assume the "Roleblocker" picked me N1, but then moved onto B_B after Day 2. Forgive me for casting aspersions, B_B, but if I had held a "There's obviously a roleblocker" stance, eventually I'd have been asked to clarify that, and then the scum would have outed a PR for free.

It's called misdirection, B_B. I've already "talked my way out of it", as you put it. I didn't doubt your claim, and I did understand why you were still alive, because I was protecting you. I was hardly going to come out and say "Yeah, there's definitely a roleblocker, and I can totally see why B_B is still alive", now.

Something is really rubbing me the wrong way about these posts, and I'm not entirely sure what it is. One thing that's really sticking out at me (although I don't think it's the only thing wrong with KoC's play today) is:

I didn't doubt your claim

Bullshit. That's

exactly

what the quoted parts of 513 and 527 look like. 513 was the first post to cast aspersions on B_B, and while my 517 and caf's 520 could maybe,

maybe

be interpreted as suspicion, the only two posts all day that really sound like B_Bscum is a strong possibility have been yours. Either you're an

amazingly

good actor, or you're trying to cover yourself after screwing up - I highly suspect it's the latter.

Not necessarily scummy, but I feel a need to say something about it after having noticed it on a D4 reread:

made worries me in an indefinable way, which is almost more worrying that a suspicion I can nail down and say "this, this and this is really scummy".

Right, because nobody's posted evidence against madeofphail. Were you not paying attention to me for most of D3? [trumpetjock]How could you not have heard me and my reasons why madeofphail was scummy? [/trumpetjock] Again, I can try to consolidate my case on him if you ask.
(Explanation of joke tags: trumpet players are reputed to be egotistical, bordering on narcissistic.)

[caf19]

madeofphail, what do you think? Do you agree with the suspicion of KoC? If not, who do you think is scum?

[Knight of Cydonia]

Either you're an amazingly good actor, or you're trying to cover yourself after screwing up - I highly suspect it's the latter.

Well, given that I'm at college studying Drama and English literature, I'd say the first.

Right, because nobody's posted evidence against madeofphail. Were you not paying attention to me for most of D3?

Ummm... not really. I was V/LA for most of D3, so I missed a fair bit. I'd be grateful for the consolidation if you wouldn't mind.

Oh, and B_B, I find it amazing that as soon as I come out as Doc, all my supposedly scummy behaviour as you called it D3 becomes "obvious doctor tells".

[Beyond_Birthday]

"obvious doctor tells" was a test, and instead of pass/fail, you kind of side swiped me there. I guess that *is* passing it though...

I don't like you a whole lot at the moment, and getting offensive to someone you think is town isn't helping. Truly, you give me too little credit.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Right, because nobody's posted evidence against madeofphail. Were you not paying attention to me for most of D3?

Ummm... not really. I was V/LA for most of D3, so I missed a fair bit. I'd be grateful for the consolidation if you wouldn't mind.

Here we go...

...whoa there.

madeofphail goes from this:

Why bring power roles into scumhunting this early? You're helping out power roles early in the game!

to this:

I may be new, but when it gets down to it, the way I see it is that a night action is an action nonetheless, and thus can be used as evidence, just like any other statements or actions.

in 7 posts, with no posting in between to support this change in position. First he says he doesn't want to use PR info to scumhunt, then he says he does...

And actually, as caf mentioned in 414, there was a madeofphail post on the page before that I missed - 379 wanted PR info, so his postition on its use appeared to go "yes, no, yes".

madeofphail's 420 is not good.
*snip*

if you thought I was scum, you should have voted me earlier.

Did you miss the part where I said I thought you were the second-scummiest player in the game?

If we can find kill patterns (mafia or serial killer or otherwise), we can have more accurate protects if there is a doc. By discussing the kill patterns, we help the doc. and possibly force the scum to kill someone else to break the pattern, so it can also help the town to confuse the mafia by constricting their nightkills by making it seem more and more likely that certain people will be protected. This will pressure the scum.

This just makes my head spin. Does someone want to try to make sense out of this?

*snip* there was something I said I wanted to talk about after the game, but I think I need to point it out now rather than later. It's in madeofphail's 468:

If you were scum, I would see this as a couple of ways. You would either be fencesitting, trying to distance yourself from the vote in the case of a mislynch, or not wanting to drop the hammer on a fellow scum.

If you were town: maybe you have some sort of power role that lets you investigate, and you know ssk is a mislynch, and so don't want to hammer him.

In any case, by not wanting to hammer someone that you see as a reasonable lynch, you seem to display knowledge that the rest of us don't possess.

Role speculation much? This sounds like he's saying I might be a cop if I'm town. Bad madeofphail. And what's even worse is that earlier, in 420, he says about his D2 play that he "wasn't trying to commit roleouting." Well, he was in 468.

I am roleouting, in a fashion. If scum counts as a role. I apologize for not making this clearer as I am not helping by remaining this vague.

by suggesting that you have info that we don't I was suggesting that you have a power that some of us don't. If you're town that would be role outing. But you could just as easily be scum in my eyes. If you were scum, it would only be natural for you to know who's townie and who's not.

If I were scum, then yes, I would have known that SSK was town. However, if I were town, then scum could have taken your post, said, "hmm, this guy might be an unprotected power role. Let's kill him!" and taken me out. *snip*

*snip* Let's see, there was something else I said I would talk about post-massclaim... oh yeah. Here it is.

Furthermore, a role out would only help find scum at this point because it seems to me like all of the town power roles have already been outed.

*headdesk* This game is the reason I added a line to my sig. More on this after the massclaim (which it sounds like you support).

Feels to me like this could be scum trying to tell his partner either "just claim VT" or "if you fakeclaim a PR, you likely won't be counterclaimed." If town says this, scum will really think there aren't any PRs and they can claim one with impunity.

...that's all I have? I thought I'd posted more about it.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I have nothing to add at the moment, so bump while I give Knight more time to respond.

[Knight of Cydonia]

So, basically, the summary of the case of madeofphail is:
- constant flip-flopping on his stance on role-outing
- role-outing, then saying he wasn't, then saying he was
- supposedly directing a scum-buddy to claim a PR.

I think the scum might have been put off claiming a PR after I came out as Doctor, tbh - I would have been incredibly surprised if any more PRs had come out after myself, since it would have unbalanced the setup beyond belief - but that point still stands.

The second post you quoted in 465 kind of makes sense to me though, since the fact that B_B has been a very obvious target has essentially forced the scum to avoid killing him, presumably because they expected a doctor, so they've done the only thing they could have done realistically, and blocked him whilst looking for a doc.

I do agree he has been far too wishy-washy on the subject though, and I would certainly support a lynch of madeofphail. At some point after Monday (my last final) I will put a case on caf together.

[Beyond_Birthday]

madeofphail, what do you think? Do you agree with the suspicion of KoC? If not, who do you think is scum?

I would enjoy madeofphail's response.