MKM II GAME OVER

[Gorrad]

-millar13 (7): ortolan, Moratorium, Empking, AceMarksman, sirdanilot, Gorrad

Caf meant to hammer, so I'd include Caf too.

Townie lynch. Reason states that at least one of the above is scum. It ain't me, Ortolan, or Moratorium. Now, what I'd like to bring up is this:

(VC when visible was reached))-ThAdmiral (9): Kast, populartajo, AceMarksman, Riceballtail, zwetschenwasser, Gorrad, Empking, caf19, sirdanilot

Notice anything about the last three? Looks to me like at least one of them was scum hopping on when the wagon was inevitable. For the SK lynch, Empking was the hammer, and he's made nothing but short, worthless posts all game.

Unvote, Vote: Empking

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-Empking (1): Gorrad
-Gorrad (1): Kast
-Kast (1): Empking
-AceMarksman (1): Riceballtail

Not voting (6): killa seven, ZEEnon, caf19, ortolan, AceMarksman, sirdanilot

With 10 alive it takes 6 real votes to lynch.

[caf19]

I believe Gorrad has the skills he says he has. The only doubt is that he could be DK/Wario and have them. However, I don't see why a third party role would get an investigation skill when they don't care all that much about finding scum - so, I'm inclined to think he is town right now.

Given that this implies ortolan is also town, our options are narrowing somewhat...

One player who I'm not happy with is Zeenon. Since he replaced in, he's flipflopped on the Shadow Knight lynch (compare 846 with 861) and on subsequent days he's hardly posted anything that isn't IIOA. Even taking into account the pile-on-fests that were ThAdmiral and millar, it's impossible to work out who he suspected on D2 (and there was plenty of discussion D2 before ThAdmiral came along, so this isn't something common to everyone).

@ ZEEnon: who do you suspect? What have they done to deserve your suspicion? Got any observations from Day 2 (or 3)?

--

@ Empking: Found anything suspicious about Kast yet?
@ sirdan: If I'm obvscum, why aren't you voting for me?

[Empking]

Gorrad: Your main point against me is that I hammered scum?

[Gorrad]

Gorrad: Your main point against me is that I hammered scum?

You hopped on late to two scum lynch wagons, were present on the town lynch wagon, and have done next to nothing by way of posts all game.

[Empking]

Gorrad: Your main point against me is that I hammered scum?

You hopped on late to two scum lynch wagons, were present on the town lynch wagon, and have done next to nothing by way of posts all game.

Though I was late on the bandwagon in the postion for the second bandwagon but it terms of time I was early.

What do you mean by the second part?

[Gorrad]

I mean try writing a single paragraph.

[Kast]

I would actually be okay with an Empking lynch. In this game he is displaying an attitude of no interest in actually scumhunting, just responding if people say something about him and the only initiative he himself is taking is to place votes with no reasoning.

This is identical to the only other game I have played with him, and he was scum in that game. At that time, I looked at a few other games that he had recently played as a townie, and in each of those games he actively tried to catch scum.

His stated goal of finding evidence to fit to me being scum as opposed to looking for evidence and seeing what it says about my (or anyone else's) alignment also fits with his behavior from that game where he edited and misquoted other players to defend himself.

UNVOTE, VOTE: Empking

This puts Empking at L-2.

However, I still think Gorrad's claim is pretty unbelievable. Things that stand out the most are:
-Claim to have killed Millar but Millar claimed to be a completely vanilla townie
-Kamek spending coins to use spells (can't see any flavor reason for that)
-Kamek being unable to buy/use items (can't see any flavor reason, though possibly balance reason)
-Buying coins with coins (???)
-Extreme unbalance of a double-voting, nightkill immune, Dr, vig-cop who can magic confirmed townies into existence
-Affiliation+Coins+Items+Name investigation

I've touched on the first 5, but the last one is also...odd...

I would think a name investigation is equivalent to an affiliation investigation.

Item investigation makes a bit of sense for a townie; except that if it also comes along with name and affiliation, it's pretty much completely redundant (unless we have millers/godfathers).

Coin investigation seems mostly useless for a townie. It really only makes much sense for third party who needs to collect coins.

[Riceballtail]

what do you think about the part where AceMarksman more or less confirmed Shadow Knight-scum? In general please elaborate on AceMarksman now that you actually have a purpose.

The comment about the millar night kill is one of the most useful comments you have made in this game... which doesn't say much but still. It's true, you can't kill boos with fire.

Also elaborate on your apparent suspicion of me and empking. Why did you list me as leaning town but also as a suspect...?

A bus is a bus. Doing it D1 makes it look really credible later.

I actually doubt that millar was a VT, and probably had protection from NKs somehow. Either that or he was a coin-stealer maybe (like in Mario Party)?

I have you on my suspect list because I still don't completely understand how you came into the game if Gorrad didn't summon you himself. Being a boo, millar's seemingly random jump made sense, but I can't quite add yours up.

Empking I suspect just didn't like the possibility of being called out during the item claiming stage, and thus wanted to try and skate by without having to discuss it much.

[Kast]

@RBT-
I am not liking a lot of what you are saying.

-AceM clearly did not have to say anything and very likely SK would not have been lynched. He made some very specific and unprompted claims that would be pretty suicidal as scum since he would have no way of gauging those claims.

-Why would you think Millar was a coin-stealer? He was a townie facing a lynch. You don't think he would have claimed something like coin stealer or NK immunity?

And especially since Gorrad claimed to have sent in a NK while Millar was still alive, why wouldn't Millar have admitted his immunity at that point?

You're doing the same thing I was just talking about with Empking; instead of looking at the evidence and seeing where it points, you are starting with conclusions and forcing the evidence to fit those conclusions.

FOS: RBT

[Gorrad]

Kast, with my role (though now nigh-useless due to no coins), I'll almost certainly die tonight, which will be a burden off your back.

One thing for later days: Just because Ace is WAY not MK does not make him cleared of other allignments. I do side with Kast in that it wasn't a bus.

For all we know, Millar could have been protected last night, or me blocked. It's worth noting that my kill of Millar was first of the actions I sent in. It's possible someone RB'd me, thinking they'd stop the vanilla creation, and instead just blocked my first action.

Would two kindly souls care to lynch Empking with us?

[ZEEnon]

Gorrad, have you created a vanilla townie for us as of yet?
I think that would be both extremely useful to us.

@ ZEEnon: who do you suspect? What have they done to deserve your suspicion? Got any observations from Day 2 (or 3)?

Things were extremely rushed those days, and I was incredibly annoyed to see
that millar1 was lynched without me being able to analyze the situation.
Hell, did you guys even allow him to claim? As for my suspicions, I was thinking populartajo. Looks like I was incorrect.
As for the living players, I think that Gorrad and subsequently, ortolan, are town.
I'm quite unsure about everyone else to be honest, as I have not been regularly following this game.

[Kast]

@ZEEnon-
-Day 2 was not rushed.

-Sorry you were upset that you didn't get to post your thoughts. Please provide your analysis of that situation and his lynch now.

If a player replaced into a normal game, claimed to be third party allied with the mafia, then changed his claim to vanilla townie, what would you normally think?

-Millar was able to claim. He claimed to be a boo and a vanilla townie.

On Day 3, Millar maintained his claim with the addition that he had no voting power.

You actually responded after he had claimed. Why didn't you take that chance to share your thoughts with us?

[Gorrad]

ZEEnon, read my posts. I'm out of coins, I can't do jack any more, let alone create a townie.

[Kast]

@Gorrad-
Actually, if you really are a townie, I would expect scum may not have much incentive to kill you since you would now be practically limited to a double voter who can't buy/use items. I suppose it would depend on how likely they think your double voting ability is going to be aimed at them.

What is the timing of your night actions?

Particularly, what is the timing of your investigations?

Do you receive results as soon as you request them (ie. can you use an investigation result to help you decide your kill targets?)?

Since players can trade coins and/or items at any time, how does that work with your coin/item investigation?

[Gorrad]

I send in night choices. When day starts, I recieve my coin total, what my vote's worth (even though it's static), and all results I may have gotten from night actions.

As I have not, to my knowledge, been traded any coins or items, I would not know. However, if that one mysterious one I recieved was traded to me at night, I was never informed that it was, and it just showed up in my total.

[Empking]

Does anyone know what its like to get coins traded to you?

Everyone who is voting me: Give me two reasons.

[Gorrad]

Crappy posts, being on all three bandwagons (late on the bandwagons of the scum).

[ortolan]

Can you guys hold the lynch please, I see absolutely no good reason to rush through this day

Allow me to re-read Empking

[Gorrad]

It's L-2, you have time.

[Empking]

Crappy posts, being on all three bandwagons (late on the bandwagons of the scum).

Is your main reason me lynching two scum and one claimed scum or my posts?

[AceMarksman]

@RBT: did you seriously miss the part where I caught scum early? You're still voting me? What is your win condition?

[Kast]

Everyone who is voting me: Give me two reasons.

Look up 9 posts.

@Empking, 1644-
Incorrect. Gorrad did not state or imply any dissatisfaction with you being part of a wagon that lynched scum. He pretty clearly stated and clarified that he did not like that you were on the tail end of the scum wagons.

A more accurate summary would probably be:
-You are not contributing to the game in post number or content (lurking).
-You jumped on scum wagons after their lynches were inevitable (bussing).
-You jumped on a townie wagon.

@Ort-
Re-reading Empking should be quick.

[ortolan]

I re-read Empking and think he's probably town

I would like to know whom he suspects though

[sirdanilot]

sorry I've been busy and found it hard to concentrate on this game. If there's anything specific I should address please tell me.

[caf19]

Gorrad, have you created a vanilla townie for us as of yet?
I think that would be both extremely useful to us.

@ ZEEnon: who do you suspect? What have they done to deserve your suspicion? Got any observations from Day 2 (or 3)?

Things were extremely rushed those days, and I was incredibly annoyed to see
that millar1 was lynched without me being able to analyze the situation.
Hell, did you guys even allow him to claim? As for my suspicions, I was thinking populartajo. Looks like I was incorrect.
As for the living players, I think that Gorrad and subsequently, ortolan, are town.
I'm quite unsure about everyone else to be honest, as I have not been regularly following this game.

Meh, not a very satisfactory response... not sure exactly what to think of it, but it largely indicates a lack of reading. Please hurry up and reread days 2 and 3 (it shouldn't take that long) and let us know your suspicions (and also whether or not you approve of the Empking wagon).

I don't think the case on Empking is that strong. I agree that his relative lack of input, or explanations for his votes, is not pro-town. However, the case that he is lynch-worthy because he was late onto wagons doesn't hold true, at least not in this case. For ThAdmiral and millar, I don't really find that the order of the votes matters - in both cases, everyone was certain they were scum so they were just going to pile on at the first opportunity. Normally, looking towards the end of the wagon might be a good idea, but in these two cases scum would have had no problem getting on the wagons early (since they were obvlynches anyway).

Empking is one of the 'quiet people' along with Zeenon and k7 (and probably RBT), but I find his play slightly less objectionable because he has at times put votes/opinions on the line - Zee and k7 have demonstrated much less of a willingness to stick their necks out.

Mod, please prod killa seven

Oh, as for RBT... Before 1620 she wasn't willing to reveal much about herself, not proffering many non-obvious opinions apart from extended tunnelling on tajo. I don't agree with much of the stuff she says in 1620, but I feel that's mostly due to it being a low level of analysis than to her being scum trying to achieve a mislynch. I don't like the way she has left herself 'outs' with quite a few players though, mentioning something scummy even if she says they're town (possibly in order to justify switching to them later if they become a feasible wagon).

@ RBT, why is post 1551 voteworthy on its own?