Newbie 789 (Game over!)

[Raivann]

A Raivann lynch doesn't bother me in the least especially as we'll all gain more information from that than a Josh lynch.

I agree, especially after you said that your almost certain that I'm scum.

[Cojin]

Raivann's support for me being town is a little unsettling, mainly because I don't feel like I've made a strong enough case for myself yet. Does he know more than he's letting on?

Over the top accusations, which have done well to get the game started. I don't know if you're attacking people because you're trying to get the focus off you, or because you want to put the pressure on them. You could also be trying to present yourself as an easy target by appearing scummy, to see who in turn attacks you to conclude that they themselves are scum.

I don't want to lynch Raivann yet

Despite me being behind Raivann for probably the entire game, I think his agressiveness and lack of a real defense may be finally catching up with him. I still don't want to vote for him quite yet though. I want to hear Raivann's response to Amished's post.

Although its not direct pressure i still saw it within his posts.

[Amished]

Raivann's support for me being town is a little unsettling, mainly because I don't feel like I've made a strong enough case for myself yet. Does he know more than he's letting on?

Over the top accusations, which have done well to get the game started. I don't know if you're attacking people because you're trying to get the focus off you, or because you want to put the pressure on them. You could also be trying to present yourself as an easy target by appearing scummy, to see who in turn attacks you to conclude that they themselves are scum.

I don't want to lynch Raivann yet

Despite me being behind Raivann for probably the entire game, I think his agressiveness and lack of a real defense may be finally catching up with him. I still don't want to vote for him quite yet though. I want to hear Raivann's response to Amished's post.

Although its not direct pressure i still saw it within his posts.

I'm not seeing any pressure.

@Raivann: ABR actually *looks* for something scummy first, and then pressures them relentlessly. Try reading one or two of his town games and you'll see what he's really like. Quoting a wiki page does nothing, and it's IIoA.

What are *your* feelings on Cojin?

Working on my defense of my case now though. Will come in a new post.

[Amished]

8: After Hamburger's random vote to start off the game, (of which there *can* be no evidence that it wasn't random) he starts his ... "crusade" early on against Hamburger and I

Not scummy

*Mindlessly* attacking people with *no* reasoning *two* posts into the game is anti-town at best.

10: I have an inherent distrust of people who state they're obvtown,

Your problem, not his.

Stating something that I feel to be scummy is everybody's problem. Because he dropped a scumtell is still his problem. You point out something scummy in another player isn't just your problem.

12 by Cojin: (who is my tentative partner) Votes Raivann, this time truly to distance himself from his partner I believe.

So.. Raiv is scum because Cojin voted him? Hmm. Not compelling.

It's a lead and start to a linking between two scummy players. If there's a linking this early, I feel it should be pointed out.

14 by Cojin (Italics will be by him)

more about cojin? Not relevant.

Read above

16: Admits it was an unjust attack,

Town-tell. Admitting you were wrong.

He wasn't admitting he was wrong, he was admitting that he knowingly attacked unjustly.

27: Specifically asks Cojin who people's alignment is

So?

Link, and why single out Cojin. The way Raiv phrased it looked off to me, and now how I would ask another person if I didn't know their alignment.

31: Raivann "attacks" Cojin (and places a vote on him which would be the second behind arelian) for Cojin not liking Raiv's name.

OMGUS is not a scumtell.

It's a stupid reason for a vote (them not liking your name) and while he's admitted to trying to kickstart the game. Getting it started then a "random" vote is most likely distancing.

32: Raivann basically flat out says that Cojin is scum for active lurking. Does nothing to draw Cojin into the game, just states it.

Which is a fine play. The vote was already on him, right?

If you think they're not being active, make them come forward so you can pin down their opinions. Not voting them and leaving it there. It's still a way to keep a reason for voting for somebody without doing anything either.

33: Gives me an FoS for stating that Raiv's case on Hamburger was bogus. I believe that this was to be a precursor to an attack, and attempting to show that he's been suspicious of me for a while.

FOS'ing someone, then attacking them later is a logical progression. Not scummy.

Fair enough

36: Cojin says ...

MORE ABOUT COJIN!

Yes, the link between them that I stated I was going to try to build in the start of my case post.

59: Raiv now tries to set me up with "my scumbuddy Sustain."

How is this scummy? You are doing it with cojin in this very post!

I have reasoning and links between Raiv/Cojin. He has neither.

67: Says that being over-aggressive is not anti-town (when I both disagree with him that he's just being false aggressive undermining himself with every vote, and that being aggressive for the sake of being aggressive is partially anti-town; either leading people on false witchhunts or distracting the players.)

Internally inconsistent. If he is undermining himself, and he is scum, then it IS protown.

It's only pro-town because he's making it easy to find scum...

73: Addresses his point against ham as an attempt to kickstart the game

Scumhunting is scummy, too?

Giving a different reason for his posts than initially (finding scum right off the bat) is inconsistent and therefore scummy.

In 80, after Az votes for Raiv: Cojin finally speaks

More about Cojin.. though I think this would also be true in Cojin-scum/Raivann-town....

Ok

88: Raiv paints Cojin in as favorable a light as he possibly can, while also saying "well played, sir".

That is a weird post. I'll give you a point here.

Good

107: Cojin further muddies his position on Raiv. ....

more about Cojin.. I am almost sold on a Cojin Lynch from reviewing your Raivann case!!

That's fine by me.

112: Raiv goes on to say that if Raiv was townie, Cojin would want to stay on the wagon. This is true in more than one way, so because Cojin hopped off the wagon, he's also scum and doesn't want to lynch his partner.

Except, Cojin is new-ish. New scum often fear mislynch-fallout.

True enough as well. I just view his motivation in this case to be different than fearing the fallout.

Whew, no screwed up tags.

[Raivann]

What are *your* feelings on Cojin?

I dont like his recent posts , saying that Arelian has been pressuring me. It's just not true. I support Cojin lynch.

[Raivann]

Just read all of Cojin's posts.
For his hopping on and off and on of my wagon , his early comment saying he had no comments/reads on anybody and saying arelian was pressuring me. I think Cojin would be good lynch

[Raivann]

unvote, Vote: Cojin

Amished is still my main suspect, but Camn and Cojin are tied for second now.

A townie Camn mislynch would be an awful thing.

[Raivann]

hmmm..but I dont think Cojin & Amished are partners. I'm cofused now...

[camn]

I think Cojin Is our guy for today, then, given the bipartisan support of his lunch!

Cojin? DO you have anything to say for yourself?

[arelian]

Cojin: Yeah, I haven't really been pressuring Raivann at all. I've been trying to keep an open mind that my read on him as town might be wrong though. I don't want to get to the point where I can't see anything scummy with a post because I have a preconceived notion that the player is innocent.

Now, reading your list, I agree with everyone else in saying there are a lot of problems here. Your justification for Amished is a little weak. I made the same mistake earlier on, but just because someone is acting excessively townie doesn't make them scum. Your points on me pressing Raivann seem pretty inaccurate, though I don't know if you just haven't read the thread thoroughly enough or you're trying to create something out of nothing. As for camn, you're suggesting that if she's scum, she's not going to vote for her partner? I'm not sure about that, if she is scum I can see her voting for her partner for distancing or just to confuse us.

Josh still hasn't said anything, and we're almost at deadline. Elmo said that he picked up his prod as well- that means he has certainly seen the thread, so why hasn't he posted yet? I don't want him to be allowed to go unnoticed but maybe the best thing we can do is have him get replaced at the start of day 2.

If we do go the replacement route, I guess our next best option is Cojin. He's at L-2 now, right? I want to keep my vote on Josh hoping he'll be here and have something to say but if necessary I'll switch it over.

[camn]

Just checked votecount...L-2 is correct.
I'll make it L-1

UNVOTE
VOTE: COJIN

Maybe we can get Lyman replaced during the night phase?

[arelian]

Yeah, that sounds like a good plan, I'm just worried that Josh is purposely avoiding posting in the thread because he wants to avoid adding more suspicion to himself or something. In that case if there's a replacement we pretty much lose all of that read on him.

[Amished]

A replacement coming in would still make their own scumslips too, so we *could* get a read on them if Josh is scum.

[Cojin]

Yeah, that sounds like a good plan, I'm just worried that Josh is purposely avoiding posting in the thread because he wants to avoid adding more suspicion to himself or something. In that case if there's a replacement we pretty much lose all of that read on him.[/quote[

I belive him to be very scummy, I would like to lynch him because if he is indeed scum we save ourselves from myslynching a townie, like as to say lynching me.But as for whoever hammers me, i am

vanilla townie

.

[Amished]

So:

Your only "dying" thoughts are that a lurker is scummy, and by default everyone else is ok. No defense/explanation of your actions, no questioning others that you feel are scummy, you go after a lurker who probably won't respond, and don't ask him any questions.

Your claim is more of a fear-based, and we're myslynching (sic). Contrast this with Camn's claim where she said (and correctly implied) that she's only a vanilla townie. We're *not* losing a power role, and if we can't or aren't going to hit scum, the best alternative is a VT.

[Elmo]

Day 1, Vote Count #11

Cojin (4) <- Scien, Amished, Raivann, camn
Josh Lyman (2) <- arelian, Cojin
camn (2) <- Josh Lyman, Azhrei

Not voting: AShadowedHeart.
The

deadline

is Sunday, 7th June 22:00 UTC, which is 1 day, 3 hours and 11 minutes from this post.
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
Looking for a Josh Lyman replacement.

[Cojin]

This seems also to be a numbers game (sorry for the quote fail)

But if we are lynching just to lynch and to try to learn something, all you are going to do is create a WiFoM situation where, scum are torn between not participating in the lynch to attempt to look less scummy, or participating in the lynch because not participating would also look scummy due to the WiFom scenario.

Maybe we should consider a No lynch and see what happens after the NK?

[arelian]

Cojin, the problem with a no lynch is that losing two people (and essentially confirming the identities of two people) is a lot better of an option then only confirming one through the night kill. We can then examine relationships of the confirmed players to the non confirmed ones and see what we can draw from it. Also, at least this way we have a chance of hitting scum. If we were to do a no lynch, then we would have a 0% chance of finding a scum player.

And I don't think there is a lot of WIFOM really. Participating in a lynch isn't necessarily a scummy thing to do. I feel that if you really believe someone is scum, then you vote for them.

The fact that you're arguing for a no lynch really just seems to me to be an attempt to shake everyone off of you at the last second. Amished was right when he said your claim seemed to be mostly fear based compared to camn's and Raivann's. And the fact that you didn't claim doctor or cop makes it much less of a risk to the town as a whole to go on with the lynch and see what is revealed.

[camn]

NoLynch = scummy.

[Raivann]

@Cojin- Besides Josh, Who do you find most scummy?

@Azhrei,ASH,Scien- What are your thoughts on these recent developments?

[Cojin]

Camn.

[Amished]

Cojin, the problem with a no lynch is that losing two people (and essentially confirming the identities of two people) is a lot better of an option then only confirming one through the night kill. We can then examine relationships of the confirmed players to the non confirmed ones and see what we can draw from it. Also, at least this way we have a chance of hitting scum. If we were to do a no lynch, then we would have a 0% chance of finding a scum player.

And I don't think there is a lot of WIFOM really. Participating in a lynch isn't necessarily a scummy thing to do. I feel that if you really believe someone is scum, then you vote for them.

The fact that you're arguing for a no lynch really just seems to me to be an attempt to shake everyone off of you at the last second. Amished was right when he said your claim seemed to be mostly fear based compared to camn's and Raivann's. And the fact that you didn't claim doctor or cop makes it much less of a risk to the town as a whole to go on with the lynch and see what is revealed.

I literally could not have said it better myself. Extremely well put, and everything is correct. Arelian's last paragraph is exceptionally true, including the recent "no-lynch" suggestion. It has even been brought up this game with Raiv, Camn and I discussing that we would all hammer ourselves if necessary just due to how bad the no-lynch is. While I applaud you (Cojin) for not giving up, you suggesting no-lynch only looks like the last ditch desperate attempt of scum to save themselves.

I don't think I've ever felt this confident in a D1 lynch.

[camn]

I'm ready, then.
Cojin has had warning, and has had a chance to respond!

[Elmo]

Raeil replaces Josh Lyman. Thanks!

[camn]

Hi, Raeil.

Deadline is 24 hours, 7 minutes away, and no-majority = no-lynch......

So please, share any insight you have NOW!

Cojin is at L-1 and he looks caught to me.