The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Somehow, I don't think he was thinking anything, Zwet.

[zwetschenwasser]

And thanks to him we have NO leads besides whoever wanted to get Yos killed. THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING DAMMIT

[Gorrad]

And thanks to him we have NO leads besides whoever wanted to get Yos killed. THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING DAMMIT

...Hold on, just gotta check this. You, Zwetschenwasser, are upset at another player for doing stupid, potentially game-ruining play?

[dramonic]

I think the word game-ruining might be a bit much...

[MikeSC6]

It's possible that Mufasa was hoping that the scum would believe his claim on day 2 (he made a comment early on day 3 about expecting to be night-killed) and night kill him. If that had happened it would have been good town play, we wouldn't have had to lynch a townie and the scum would have used a nightkill on a vanilla townie. A more believable claim would certainly have helped, though.

It was myself who wanted to get Yos killed (though I only wanted him killed on the condition that we could then get rid of the extra vote by giving it to miller before end-game, which we can't so I don't stand by that plan.)

[Battle Mage]

im still here? wow.

I didnt think expressing sympathy with the dead townie was a massive deal, but the explanation doesnt wash. Seriously, you were upset with the night's result? As far as i can see, losing a vanilla townie over night isnt a particularly surprisingly or bad result.

Vote: Dramonic

I'm thinking that might be -1 or -2?

BM

[Jahudo]

I think some good leads today are the voting trends and Percy's posts.

Percy placed alot of votes and pressure on lurkers like Ztife and ZONEACE, which I think he would do on town and scum alike because it's not too damaging tells and it allowed him to skip over more important discussions.

Percy voted Yos as the mayor in his first post and again later day 1 as a more serious vote. At that time BM was the highest Mayor wagon with 6 votes and Percy's vote on Yos was number 3. Before then Percy was against the BM mayor wagon and more-or-less neutral on Yos.

If scum really wanted a scum mayor day 1 Percy would have handled his attitude towards BM differently, because the way he was going he couldn't have hopped on the larger BM wagon. I could see Percy voting for the veteran scummer, Yos or BM, if his team wanted the scum mayorship or not, just because it would be an easier vote to justify than one on a newer player.

I don't think Percy's mayor vote strongly changes what Yos could be, but it makes BM look a little more town.

---------------------------------------

Day 1 end wagon:

millar13:

Gorrad, DizzyIzzyB13, Barrylocke, Shinnen_no_Me,

Mufasa, Millar13, The Fonz

, Yosarian2,

dingoatemybaby, Dr Pepper

, zwetschenwasser

Day 2 end wagon:

Dr Pepper:

dingoatemybaby

, Jahudo, Kaiveran, zwetschenwasser,

Percy, Mufasa, Dr Pepper

Day 3 end wagon:

Mufasa:

NabakovNabakov Jahudo DizzyIzzyB13 dramonic Gorrad

Juls

Yosarian2 zwetschenwasser

Thoughts:
-the zwets hammers and presense on all three wagons is pretty typical for him. null tell.

-the day 2 wagon doesn't necessarily have any scum on it because of the way people were broken up.

-I doubt both day 1 and 3 wagons are completely devoid of scum, just because scum like to lynch town. I'm less concerned with timing of vote or initial justification of the vote, but I'm more interested if the voter followed up with questions/pressure or they just sunk back into the shadows and camped on the wagon. I'm still looking into that...

[zwetschenwasser]

I'd like a votecount please.

[Haschel Cedricson]

(5)dramonic: NabakovNabakov, Gorrad, DizzyIzzyB13, Starbuck, Battle Mage
(0)Yosarian2:
(0)Starbuck:
(0)Battle Mage:
(0)Jahudo:
(0)DizzyIzzyB13:
()MikeSC6:
()NabakovNabakov:
()Gorrad:
()Rockatansky:
()The Replacement:
()Ztife:
()zwetschenwasser:

Not voting: The Replacement, zwetschenwasser , Ztife, Rockatansky, MikeSC6 Jahudo dramonic Juls Yosarian2

8 votes to lynch.

Ztife hasn't replied to her prod, so a-hunting I will go, I guess.

[zwetschenwasser]

Why is dramonic almost dead?

[dramonic]

because a few of you are convinced I am rolefishing, which was not the intended effect.

and because I said it was problematic that we lost yet another townie.

[Jahudo]

Who do you think is scum, dramonic?

[dramonic]

honestly, right now I have no clue ><

[The Replacement]

Quick thoughts on each of the previous days so far

Day One:
Thinking that a scummy mayor should be elected is baffling, and when almost every other player spoke against and ALL brought up points against it. I don’t know why Firestarter had to go on for so long about it. I agree millar13/Xtoxm was a necessary lynch, but it really prevented a lot of scum hunting. I was not disappointed too much with the mayor choice, though I thought it would have been better to get someone who would have been easier to read in that position, Yosarin2 does not fit that as well as some of the other protown-looking players would have.

Day Two:
This has to be one of the worst days ever. There are people cross defending each other left and right and misrepresentations all over the place. Let someone defend themselves or answer their own questions/accusations rather than any random person jumping in front of them to answer first. Even if you think it’s a bad accusation, a lot can be learned by seeing how someone responds. Prematurely defending them deprives the town of getting these reads on players. If everyone is insistent upon partaking in anti-town behavior it makes it a hell of a lot easier for scum to blend in. Anti-town behavior isn’t a scum tell unless you can explain why scum would be more likely to be doing that. The sad thing is, that even if I was in this game I would have been able to stop none of that crap since my character was out in the fields smelling the flowers.

(dingoatemybaby was entirely on the correct side of that argument, which seems pretty damn obvious if you actually read the thread. Dr Pepper made the worst possible choice, both in the self hammer and in his choice of who to kill.)

Day Three:
I don’t think Mufasa was the correct lynch. I fail to see how his claim would be more likely made as scum than it would be as. The only special ability I want to see going off when we lynch someone is the special ability of the town having one less werewolf to worry about. People who unvoted Mufasa on day two just to vote him on day three are very suspicious for doing so, especially since this allows them to effectively ignore half of the players for two consecutive days. MikeSC’s reason for unvoting is equally ridiculous in my opinion. His claim elaboration on day three creams fake, but I fail to see how he would do that as scum more likely than town. Admittedly it was dismal play by Mufasa as well.

[The Replacement]

There was at least one werewolf on the day two lynch Jahudo, you missed Percy.

It's been a very disheartening read in catching up. Every time I come across a player that I find seeming scummy, I look at the death list and notice that they weren't one of the lynches. People haven't been scum hunting, they've been hunting poor play with little to back up the accusation of scumminess.

The same thing is happening again today. You are all taking something that is poor play in general and making it into a scum tell because it is convenient to do so.

Yosarian2, as a veteran player, who I do not take as a poor player, you should know better than to let all that bad play happen on day two, and you even jumped in with them on the poor playing. You've said you would be using your vote as mayor also, I have hardly seen any evidence of you doing any scumhunting on your own.

Day three was horrible town play by prettymuch all involved as well. There was almost no discussion, despite the fact eight players from the previous day had been removed from the game teporarily and ignored. This didn't seem to bother anyone that they could just slip through day three and are now slipping through day four as well.

Furthermore, there were a group of replacements needed, and the quick day three basically meant that you couldn't have heard from any of us until the following day. This is horrible play for several reasons. First you aren't scumhunting amongst all the players in the game, only some of them. Second, you leave less days to get reads on the lurkers/replacements which is increasingly important as the game continues on, as you can't put off being able to get reads on people as you approch more dire situations.

[The Replacement]

Another thing that is unsettling, is the fact you all seem to be completely ignoring today's special ability. This is something the town MUST discuss and take control of. Since our second vote is secret, if we just go into a lynch without anyone saying who they plan on voting for as second lynch, then the werewolves can just feel free to all vote whoever, as we know they won't vote for each other since they won't have to be held accountable for the vote if no one sees them voting.

We need to line up our second lynch as town so that if that second lynch doesn't happen, then we know that we have liars on one of the wagons and can effectively narrow down a list of suspects in which we know will have werewolves. We need to know who the majority for second lynch will be going into the night so that if that doesn't happen, then we can look into why, and so keep people accountable for the voting that they do.

Vote: MikeSC6

If dramonic is lynched I will vote for MikeSC6 as my second lynch vote. If anyone's second lynch is going to be based upon the first one's flip, you should specify who you would vote in both scenarios.

[The Replacement]

I am tired. It's almost 4:30am and I have work in less than four hours. I'll post some more in depth thoughts on certain players tomorrow if I have time.

[Battle Mage]

no. no. no. We do NOT discuss the second lynch today, because if we do, we give scum the chance to co-ordinate and overturn our decision. Unless you think we can get a nearly unanimous verdict, we are best off just going with our instincts, and assuming that scum will be clueless anyway, and probably cancel each other out. I advise keeping an eye out for anyone trying to communicate like this.

Your gamebreaking idea looks nice, but won't work in practice.

also, who are you replacing? lol

BM

[Jahudo]

His claim elaboration on day three creams fake, but I fail to see how he would do that as scum more likely than town.

I don’t understand this. You think town would lie when they are under pressure?

Every time I come across a player that I find seeming scummy, I look at the death list and notice that they weren't one of the lynches.

Who else?

Day Two:
There are people cross defending each other left and right and misrepresentations all over the place. Let someone defend themselves or answer their own questions/accusations rather than any random person jumping in front of them to answer first. Even if you think it’s a bad accusation, a lot can be learned by seeing how someone responds. Prematurely defending them deprives the town of getting these reads on players.

What posts/people are you referring to, or are they dead now?

There was at least one werewolf on the day two lynch Jahudo, you missed Percy.

Yes. I meant living werewolves as of day 4.

Unless you think we can get a nearly unanimous verdict, we are best off just going with our instincts, and assuming that scum will be clueless anyway, and probably cancel each other out.

When I read the rule where the mod locks the thread and has people PM him votes, that sounded like twilight to me. And I think it’s standard that a scum group can night talk during twilight, so why would the scum be clueless if this is the case?

I'm in favor of a mike lynch as I've said before. I'll bring some quotes up because this dramonic thing has gained alot of momentum over tells I don't trust as much anymore (feeling guilt over a townie loss) or I don't trust in this scenario (role-fishing when we had been talking about the possible roles as a group yesterday).

[Rockatansky]

The Replacement just wrote about 5,000 words, and as far as I can tell provided little to no reads on anyone. Looks like he was posting "analysis" just to post, and didn't want to actually discuss anyone. Then he comes up with a mike vote out of nowhere.

Also, how do you write that much (and cast a vote no less) without discussing the prevailing wagon at the time? I have no strong lean on dramonic one way or the other, but I find the way his wagon took off suspicious, especially since it was based solely on his rolefishing. I agree that rolefishing is anti-town, but no way should it cause someone to be insta-lynched.

Plus, one of my top scum candidates is on that wagon. I'll get back to him or her later. Right now, I'm going to re-read Percy and see if I can find anything interesting.

vote: The Replacement

[Battle Mage]

Unless you think we can get a nearly unanimous verdict, we are best off just going with our instincts, and assuming that scum will be clueless anyway, and probably cancel each other out.

When I read the rule where the mod locks the thread and has people PM him votes, that sounded like twilight to me. And I think it’s standard that a scum group can night talk during twilight, so why would the scum be clueless if this is the case?

Seems like a big 'if' to me. I dont think scum will be able to communicate, as that makes today's event pro-scum, which i dont think is the intention. Also, i cant remember if scum can talk during twilight in games which feature the phase. Somebody can confirm that?

Either way, the replacement's idea of trying to trap scum seems very unlikely to work.

BM

[The Replacement]

no. no. no. We do NOT discuss the second lynch today, because if we do, we give scum the chance to co-ordinate and overturn our decision. Unless you think we can get a nearly unanimous verdict, we are best off just going with our instincts, and assuming that scum will be clueless anyway, and probably cancel each other out. I advise keeping an eye out for anyone trying to communicate like this.

Your gamebreaking idea looks nice, but won't work in practice.

also, who are you replacing? lol

BM

It isn't a gamebreaking idea, and I never said it was. But without discussion it is not a pro-town event. How do you expect the scum to cancel each other out if they only vote for town players? Basically you have two groups, one group who will vote for anyone and one group who will vote only town players. The results of those two groups get combined and it seems that if there is no town attempt at knowing whats going on then we are just going to lose someone who is town.

I am replacing Shinen_no_me

Either way, the replacement's idea of trying to trap scum seems very unlikely to work.

It isn't an idea to trap scum (though it potentially can if the scum are dumb enough). It's a plan to take the day's event out of the inherent advantage of scum and let the town know what's happening. I don't see how the town having more information in this case would be a bad thing. What does the town lose by everyone making their second lynch choice public?

[The Replacement]

The Replacement just wrote about 5,000 words, and as far as I can tell provided little to no reads on anyone. Looks like he was posting "analysis" just to post, and didn't want to actually discuss anyone. Then he comes up with a mike vote out of nowhere.

Also, how do you write that much (and cast a vote no less) without discussing the prevailing wagon at the time? I have no strong lean on dramonic one way or the other, but I find the way his wagon took off suspicious, especially since it was based solely on his rolefishing. I agree that rolefishing is anti-town, but no way should it cause someone to be insta-lynched.

You are either selectively reading or ignoring my post that specifically explains this.

I am tired. It's almost 4:30am and I have work in less than four hours. I'll post some more in depth thoughts on certain players tomorrow if I have time.

Am still dead tired as I got almost no sleep. I'm at work and it is likely I will have time to post more in depth thoughts at some point today as my schedule doesn't look so bad.

[Jahudo]

This game has a twilight phase and from what I can tell today's event doesn't eliminate it, unless the mod is online at the time of the hammer.

13. If a lynch occurs, then the game enters ‘twilight’, where all alive players apart from the player who has been lynched are allowed to freely converse (but not allowed to cast any votes) until I lock the thread and post a death scene.

Mod: Can you tell us if twilight counts as night in this game? Can you tell us if today's event changes the rules of twilight?

[The Replacement]

Jahudo, I am not ignoring you, I will get to your post later, the questions you ask are mostly things I will specifically be discussing as I say I will in post 1166.