Newbie 774 - Spegezzironi: Game Over! TOWN WINS!

[SensFan]

1) No, the QT link will not be posted. I do not want it posted, sorry.
2) The friggin 'creadcrumb', another reason why I find Newb games so frustrating. That wasn't at all a breadcrumb, I don't EVER breadcrumb ANYTHING. But with the (nothing personal, this is a NEwb game afterall) ridiculousness of Santos' attacks, and the way people somehow (I still don't get it - I would have lynched him immediately if I was Town) accepted him as Town, people would have accused me of lying if I had denyed it being a crumb.
3) Sorry L_C, but you're wrong; dead wrong. Nothing I said or did D1 had anything to do with Scum, you were just a very easy lynch.
4) Yeah, it shows that I've never been a Cop - that claim was absolutely terrible. While my logic about not wasting investigations on people I can read is (in theory) what I do as a Cop in a normal game, in a Newb game, it would be absolutely stupid to just trust that the scummy Newbs are Scum.

If I can think of anything else, I'll say it.

[Lamont_Cranston]

3) Sorry L_C, but you're wrong; dead wrong. Nothing I said or did D1 had anything to do with Scum, you were just a very easy lynch.

Precisely my point and you paid with your life and the game.

[SensFan]

3) Sorry L_C, but you're wrong; dead wrong. Nothing I said or did D1 had anything to do with Scum, you were just a very easy lynch.

Precisely my point and you paid with your life and the game.

No, you missed the point

completely

.

If we joined another Newb game, I was given a Town role, and you played the exact same way, I would fight as hard as possible for your lynch, and wouldn't apologize, feel bad, or regret anything if you flipped Town.

[Sotty7]

I will admit that really Santos

should

have been lynched. His retorts on Sens were... Well they were awful. Getting him to build a case on was like pulling teeth and if it wasn't strictly against my gut reaction I probably would have voted him right out of the gate. Towards the end of the day his case got a little better, but now I am starting to think that maybe I should have lynched him just so he could learn that the way he went about things wasn't good.

Maybe eating rope would have been a better learning experience for him because I no way want to condone that type of “scum hunting”

Also the last day was a bit of a sham. No one seemed to do any actual scum hunting and at one point Santos basically said he wanted to lynch semi to make my prediction come true. Just because I flipped townie, doesn't mean I was auto right about semi.

Still semi seemed to give up, what was up with that? I wasn't sold on you being scum at the start of day 3 but by the end I don't think you could have made it more clear if you had “I'm scum guys!” plastered across your forehead. Did you just feel it was a lost cause? I have that one game experience with you as town and this was so far removed from that.

LC, Sens is right you are missing the point. You and Santos played the game so alike and that's not a good thing. Repeatedly retorting with “I'm a villager!!” is really doing nothing for the town. Doing this will get you hanged 99% of the time which is harmful for your side.

Sorry if this all sounds a little harsh, this game was fun. But these are newbie games were people come to learn, the last thing I want is this win to validate some play styles we saw in this game because they aren't helpful to your side and won't be in the future either.

[semioldguy]

Still semi seemed to give up, what was up with that? I wasn't sold on you being scum at the start of day 3 but by the end I don't think you could have made it more clear if you had “I'm scum guys!” plastered across your forehead. Did you just feel it was a lost cause? I have that one game experience with you as town and this was so far removed from that.

I would have sat back about as much as I did as town as well in the situation we had in day three. The lynch would be one of those two players no matter what after the claim and I would want both players to present cases on each other before weighing in myself (or wanting other people to weigh in). Weighing in before then could influence one of their cases, making it less genuine and not their own and thus the case is not necessarily indicative of their alignment, but rather what they've picked up on from the other players who are making attempts at analyzing before everything is on the table.

When Santos finally posted an actual case, it looked to me that SensFan's case wasn't as strong as Santos' possibility of being town and the day ended shortly after that. I'm pretty sure I would have been mis-lynched the final day if I were town.

[SensFan]

When Santos finally posted an actual case, it looked to me that SensFan's case wasn't as strong as Santos' possibility of being town

Sorry, but no.

My case was way stronger than Santos'.

[semioldguy]

I didn't it wasn't, your case was definitely better than his in many many ways. I just thought your case against his likeliness to be town was not such a huge difference. Though that is also likely because I knew both of your roles that had an influence on my thoughts.

I don't consider myself to be a very good scum player yet.

[semioldguy]

EBWOP: I didn't say* it wasn't

[Sotty7]

Can I ask, why the cop claim?

Really Santos probably could have been forced to the rope without it.

[Santos]

I don't get how lynching me would have helped me learn anything. What you said I should do Sotty proved more useful than lynching me and losing.

Now it just seems that my convictions of who was scum was simply retarded, in stead of incredibly accurate, despite how I developed my cases. I'm kinda bummed I didn't get much credit This is a newbie game and all I get is "santos' play is shit, my logic rules." the end.

If you guys are truly ICs playing these games to help new players, then don't be so damn brutal to our learning experience. I seriously would not have learned anything 'going to the rope', Sotty, because that has happened numerous times with a town loss in my past game experiences. You may have not realized that I learned more by NOT being lynched as a newbie. It was already apparent enough that the 'policy lynch' newbies were LC and cpe. (did I use 'policy' lynch correctly? It just sounds right...)

[Santos]

2) The friggin 'creadcrumb', another reason why I find Newb games so frustrating. That wasn't at all a breadcrumb, I don't EVER breadcrumb ANYTHING. But with the (nothing personal, this is a NEwb game afterall) ridiculousness of Santos' attacks, and the way people somehow (I still don't get it - I would have lynched him immediately if I was Town) accepted him as Town, people would have accused me of lying if I had denyed it being a crumb.

That was my whole point. If you ignored it, then I would win. If you admitted it, then I would win. The fact that you played into my 'this seems like a breadcrumb' was the biggest thing I had against you when you acknowledged it.

[Santos]

Also, semioldguy's play had me sold that he was scum.

He played more of a neutral player as opposed to being on the side of the town or the mafia. That was the dead give away to me. In a larger, themed game, I would have suspected him as a serial killer instead. I've just seen that type of scum/SK play before. He was playing the allusion of being pro town instead of scum hunting and actually playing pro town. That is why I never dropped it. Semi, you say that if you were town you would have been a mislynch? If you are in a town game next time, I would suggest scum hunting instead of active lurking. That is another dead giveaway too, IMO.

[semioldguy]

I don't feel tat I was active lurking on day two though.

[muzzz]

Now it just seems that my convictions of who was scum was simply retarded, in stead of incredibly accurate, despite how I developed my cases. I'm kinda bummed I didn't get much credit This is a newbie game and all I get is "santos' play is shit, my logic rules." the end.

If you guys are truly ICs playing these games to help new players, then don't be so damn brutal to our learning experience.

Sotty and Sens are trying to teach you an important lesson: being right is only part of the equation in mafia games. Who you manage to lynch is at least as important, if not more so.

You vs. Sens is a good example of this. At the start of the day, you weren't right about Sens. At least not in the sense that you correctly identified his scummy plays. You simply knew that he was scum because he accused you of being scum. Whether your eventual case was accurate is up for debate, I guess. But nonetheless, he was the one that got lynched in the end. The point is that yesterday illustrates two important facts about mafia:

- knowing someone is scum is not enough to get them lynched.
- being right is not always necessary to get someone lynched. (or: having your lynch turn up scum doesn't necessarily mean you were right about why they were scummy)

[SensFan]

2) The friggin 'creadcrumb', another reason why I find Newb games so frustrating. That wasn't at all a breadcrumb, I don't EVER breadcrumb ANYTHING. But with the (nothing personal, this is a NEwb game afterall) ridiculousness of Santos' attacks, and the way people somehow (I still don't get it - I would have lynched him immediately if I was Town) accepted him as Town, people would have accused me of lying if I had denyed it being a crumb.

That was my whole point. If you ignored it, then I would win. If you admitted it, then I would win. The fact that you played into my 'this seems like a breadcrumb' was the biggest thing I had against you when you acknowledged it.

Then I'm sorry, but you don't understand what that day was about at all, something I (truthfully) said several times over the course of that day.

You're not trying to trip me up, you're not trying to use the fact you know I'm Scum. You have to find stuff that would make you think I was Scum EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW I WAS.

[SensFan]

Can I ask, why the cop claim?

Really Santos probably could have been forced to the rope without it.

*shrug* I thought we would have lynched semi without the Cop claim, and then I had to either leave you alive in a 3p endgame (something I didn't want), or else have to leave ckool alive, who apparently didn't see that Santos wasn't making sense.

That, and the fact I was certain Santos would completely self-destruct when I claimed a Guilty on him, and he did.

What I find unfortunate is that now Santos thinks he actually played that Day well, and he's going to suffer HARD in non-Newb games if he doesn't learn that he's wrong.

[Sotty7]

Now it just seems that my convictions of who was scum was simply retarded, in stead of incredibly accurate, despite how I developed my cases. I'm kinda bummed I didn't get much credit This is a newbie game and all I get is "santos' play is shit, my logic rules." the end.

If you guys are truly ICs playing these games to help new players, then don't be so damn brutal to our learning experience. I seriously would not have learned anything 'going to the rope', Sotty, because that has happened numerous times with a town loss in my past game experiences. You may have not realized that I learned more by NOT being lynched as a newbie. It was already apparent enough that the 'policy lynch' newbies were LC and cpe. (did I use 'policy' lynch correctly? It just sounds right...)

I'm trying to be as nice as I can be about this Santos. I am trying to help you learn. You need to know that in a lot of the other games on this site, playing like you did on day three would have gotten you lynched. The fact I didn't vote you has put the thought in your mind that you handled that situation well and so if it comes up again then that's how you will handle yourself again. This isn't something we want.

It has nothing to do with “oh my logic is better than yours you newb lolz” it has to do with preparing you for other games on the site. Do you still think arguing over and over that “cops don't find townies guilty” was a valid defense?

You get credit later in the day, you picked up your case work a lot, making some pretty good points. So this isn't all about you sucking, because you don't. I just really want you to know that you shouldn't try and use that as a defense again. As an IC I would be in the wrong if I didn't tell you that at the very least.

When I say making you the lynch would have helped you learn this better I stand by that. The fact is people learn more from their mistakes if there are consequences. I know that's what helped my early play, lots of losses and the such. In order to be a winner you have to learn from your losses or something like that.

Also, semioldguy's play had me sold that he was scum.

He played more of a neutral player as opposed to being on the side of the town or the mafia. That was the dead give away to me. In a larger, themed game, I would have suspected him as a serial killer instead. I've just seen that type of scum/SK play before. He was playing the allusion of being pro town instead of scum hunting and actually playing pro town. That is why I never dropped it. Semi, you say that if you were town you would have been a mislynch? If you are in a town game next time, I would suggest scum hunting instead of active lurking. That is another dead giveaway too, IMO.

This is good. You were on semi on day two so you totally get credit for that.

I don't feel tat I was active lurking on day two though.

You were pretty much. We had to call you out a few times to say anything. I get your point about wanting to see both cases, but not actively asking questions made you look pretty bad.

What I find unfortunate is that now Santos thinks he actually played that Day well, and he's going to suffer HARD in non-Newb games if he doesn't learn that he's wrong.

This is my worry too.

Santos I'm trying to be as constructive as I can be as an IC, I am by no means an authority on this game. I just like to play and have for a couple of years. I think this game is a great learning experience for you as long as you take the good with the bad. I would have no issues with playing in another game with you. You play with a passion which is great. I don't want you to get depressed or anything with this, I just want you to get the most out of what happened here.

[Santos]

Thans for the feedback. I am trying to be as receptive as possible.

I guess i didnt make it clear earlier that i was appreciative of Sotty telling me to come up with another way to prove my innocence during Sens' claim. But i was. However, i've played at least 30 mafia games and this is the first time i've had to fight a scum claim like that, so it definitely caught me offguard.

[sekinj]

don't under estimate luck of the draw either... A slightly different choice here or there could have resulted in a completly different outcome.

Also, the ICs and the mods are not the absolute end-all. We all give our opinions in trying to help the newbies, without trying to sugar coat it, but it is just our opinion. If you did something you think worked well, by all means try it in another game and see how it goes. I think the newbie's played well, and it IS a great job to stay alive to endgame!!

Plus, the newbie forum isn't the only place to learn, after a couple games you should try your hand at the other forums... it's not going to kill you to be lynched a few times

[SensFan]

I think the newbie's played well

Rusty, ckool, muzz played well.
Santos, cpe, L_C will be lynched in any non-Newb game in which they play like they did here.

[ckool5000]

I think the newbie's played well

Rusty,

ckool

, muzz

played well

.
Santos, cpe, L_C will be lynched in any non-Newb game in which they play like they did here.

I guess I did learn from my lynched day-1 newbie game after all.

If SensFan hadn't claimed cop, then nobody would've tried to bring up the breadcrumb, which would make Sensfan's case much more likely, which would create a Santos lynch, which would win Sensfan the game... So, yeah, the cop claim is what did it for you Sens. I believed you 100% at first, but then my gut started telling me that Santos was innocent (and my gut had been right about L_C and cpe, even if my brain wasn't) and then came the whole breadcrumb thing, and then I was 90% sure you were scum.

Was that a run-on?

[muzzz]

However, i've played at least 30 mafia games and this is the first time i've had to fight a scum claim like that, so it definitely caught me offguard.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, putting up a good defense is one of the hardest parts of mafia.

BTW, thanks to everyone for playing. I found this game quite enjoyable, even after my death.

And special thanks to Sekinj. You were a great host!

[Santos]

Yes, thank you for the invite too, sekinj.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

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