DHSDSM beta: Game Over.

[Yosariwen]

Yeah, I agree on how strong the meta read on the Trotsky wagon was. He wasn't one of my first choices for scum, but I was planning on hammering him before the end of page 12 myself if that was the only lynch we were going to get this page.

Anyway, my main suspects are still Ortohoops, RW, and ZMD.

[Adel]

ok, just a quick check here to see who is committed to this game.

Personally, I believe that it suffers from structural problems (the action phase mechanic) and it is eventually going to fail. This is the longest 13 pages of a game on MS (I'm pretty sure) and I think it would be nearly impossible to replace into.

I've been thinking really hard about how to resolve this, and I've considered:
1. changing the action phase mechanic to something similar to alpha's, but a bit more mild
2. setting a calendar deadline, with largest minority lynching at deadline
3. abandoning the game
4 eliminating the prod mechanic entirely (or amend it)

If y'all want to talk about it, PM me (or the SA mod account) or post in the original signup thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11268

I respect the hell out of all of you players, and I don't want this game to be a cause of mafiascum burnout... and this game just doesn't seem

fun

.

right now I'm partial to option 3, but I haven't put nearly as much work into it as the rest of you.

Let me know!

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

I'd say #2.

We're doing progress though. I like this game. Trotsky flipping SK may have something to do with it.

[J-Scope]

This was meant to be a speedy game so I think we need more motivation to pick up the pace, whatever the deadline may be.

[PoketheAlpaca]

Freaking huge post wrote:

I already pmed adel and my vote would be 4 or 2. I don't want to abandon and 1 would change the tone of the game more drastically than 2 pending exactly how many of the current actions phase mechanics were kept and how many were done away with.

1) Hoops "fluff posts" weren't fluff in the same way.
2) Hers didn't have the same frequency.

I'll admit there was some level of difference in terms of frequency and what the posts were about but I still saw that as somewhat fluff.

4) It was Hoops that did it, not me.

Ortolan and hoops have the same role and are the same player. This point is mute. You could just talk to your partner about it and see what they may be thinking. Have you spoken with them recently or are you pretty much playing the game all by yourself now, kinda what Jahudo is doing in terms of J-scope?

Re-reading Hoops early posts I think they were a

bit deliberately abrasive

and maybe not well thought-out because of the attacks they could leave us open to. I don't see how they could have a scum agenda behind them though, she is drawing a lot of attention to us by both her comments and by the way she is posting in light of the rules.

Is this in cocern to what could be seen as fluff or is this in regards to how she thought scum might avoid posting fluff at all costs? I'm not sure which of those you perscieve as diliberatly abrasive nor do I understand why you think it was dileberately without a context clarification.

Assuming you are discussing how she thought scum would avoid fluff earlier on, the only scum agenda I could percieve there is that by getting townies to attack in the direction of non-fluff posters constantly, players may feel encouraged to post often as a result to avoid attack. This would length the thread/game and help the scum. It is a bit of a complicated agenda though so if she is town she unlikly considered this as a possibility. The alternative to this possible agenda is that she truly thought A&B was scum for avoiding of fluff and pretty much the entire wagon on A&B didn't see it as that from the cases laid out. This line of thought brings 2 possibilities:

1.

Hooplas suspicions of A&B weren't genuine. Her case was crap opposite of why A&B was attacked. She wanted to attack and get rid of A&B without going against her own already outlined views because of how that may draw suspicion

or 2.

She really didn't think things well through enough as you suggest.
hmm... I guess I can see how B/your defense is a viable answer there then since I believe Tajo was not thinking or paying attention to either game when he made identical posts in both games in the same timeframes as I ponted out earlier.

Check the time stamp and words of these posts from our game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 63#1642063
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 08#1645208
and compare them to these posts from the alpha game
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1642065
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 06#1645206
Tajo was clearly under the wrong impression that these games were the same. He has to treat and learn from both of them and he should now have learned from these mistakes with recent postings not being of the same manner.

So I guess I will accept your defense for ONLY that part.

_________________

3) You were actually attacking other people strongly for doing it while doing it yourself.

Rewind, you are the one I am accusing of doing this. You attacked me first for the fluff and I responded saying that you had done a type of fluff aswell and thus you were not blameless.

My response to this
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#1669295
I wasn't attacking ortohoops for lack of content but attacking them primarily for their logic.

They said our wagon was oportunistic and that scum wouldn't post fluff; they helped lynch A&B with that attitude. They said my wagon was originally oportunistic and scum would avoid fluff; now they are on our wagon and say scum would do fluff. They said we fluff posted; Hoops did some too.

Basically they are going back on some key points of their logic as well as commiting things they once deemed wrong. I see that as hypocracy.

odd, I'm just now realizing that the given link there was something said by SWSWC and I said that in response to how they percieved I was attacking you.

PtA attacking Ortohoops for lack of content was amusing. Pot meet kettle.

<snip>

PtA is self contradicting with his long post saying they think Zaphod is scum, rather strongly, but landing a vote elsewhere. Also interesting that PtA's attacking Ortohoops for being hypocritical is itself hypocritical. Would you mind self voting?

What is said here by SWSC is an attack of us(PtA) on the grounds of our ortohoops suspicions. This can be consider an awkward response or bad defense of ortohoops in the terms of how SWSWC later looked at ortohoops in that same post.

Not really liking Orto's defense that "my hydra partner did it!" in regards to the three fluff posts PtA pointed out.

You and your hydra are the same player in this game. That's a BS defense. I do agree however that some of those "fluff posts" were direct replies to questions asked by other players.

Because they actually give credit to some of our(PtA's) suspicions on Ortohoops. I am greatly considering the possibility you(ortohoops) are scum with SWSWC because they seemed to defend you from some logic and then imediatly attack you with it. I think they may have been confused on whether to defend or distance from their scum buddy there pending how other players may view the case on you. By being in between like that they could defend or bus you without reprecussion as they would have the option to be on either side.

The same Back and forth attitude of SWSWC not knowing how to act around orto scum can also be seen here:

SWSWC's view of you here:

Orto

Your back and forth with Yos is stifling game conversation. While I feel your points are valid, you're sidetracking discussion which is antitown. I also don't like that you feel the need to reply to every single point against you. Do you still find PtA most likely scum? If so is Yos a likely buddy or a misguided townie?

Orto scummy here.

SWSSC agress that he has valid points but also he is called antitown.

The last two questions feel fabricated.

doesn't sit well we me or tajo

That's great. Why?

All that I've said above is pretty much the why. SWSWC was fairly back and forth with their view of you. One moment they agree and defend you, the next they attack you and call you antitown. Its practically wishy-washy and I can see SWSWC-scum being that way about a possible scum buddy like you.

_________________

thats all right maybe someone here will have the brains to lynch zaphod after us

I understand why Trotsky’s posts look like a scum giving up, I had the same reaction initially. But it doesn’t really make sense given this statement. If he’s scum, he knows we’ll ignore his ‘lynch zaphod’, if he flips town, we’re wrong thinking his post is scum giving up. Only way both of these works is if he’s scum and distancing himself from his scumbuddy. I guess we’ll find out now that he’s been hammered.

There is another possibilities now in light of trotsky's reveal. He was SK that wanted Zaphod lynched after his death. Wanting Zaphod lynched after having lost the game as SK, means trotsky could have only wanted one thing there. He actually thought Zaphod was scum with SWSWC and if he(trotsky) couldn't win as SK, he didn't want Zaphod to win either.

At the moment a couple of my suspicions on Zaphod still need answers from plum. I want clarification of her response.

Zaphod has now presented this defence:

I still believe that the general attack on me for my analysis of A&B &c. is weak and the fact tells more about my general playstyle than my alignment.

I already explained, at this point, why an A&B section got included in that post: I needed to do major catching-up because I'd only had time to focus on the Alpha game, did a major reread-with-analysis post, and saw no compelling reason to excise the A&B section that I'd already written. I was attempting only to let the Town see all my thoughts and notes as I read through the game; when catching up, this is normal for me, and says nothing besides Plum playing as she usually does; quite null. Why did/do you see only self-congratulatory, apparently scummy emphasis on good work done by my other head and the other players?

To clarify, are you saying you often review dead players OR is that generally meant in the playstyle context of just joining a game? Can you present a link to a completed game where you have done that sort of thing before?

I want to know if she would typically make that kind of post as a replacement or as someone catching up on the game. And a link to such an instance supporting her defence, or it holds no water. And if it holds no water, then that would indeed make her entire caught up post gloating or a guise to looklike everybody else. And I already explained how an attitude like this would be grounds for Zaphod scum.

_________________

I disagree with the conclusion because I disagree with the premise that "there wasn't much of a case". FYI I have played several games with rofl as town previously- Lynch All Lurkers, Hunchback of Notre Dame and RealTime Mafia - in all he was extremely aggressive. I also saw a bit of a game where he was an SK which he got nominated for a scummy for, perhaps won it but I can't recall how he played that game. Anyways, in this and Alpha he played totally different (granted it's only one half of the hydra); which is why he got vigged in that and lynched in this. I have also seen him comment that he finds it harder to play as scum. Essentially it's very hard to fake such aggressiveness which is a stalwart of his town play, when scum. I don't actually think you're scummy for pushing this argument because it's counterintuitive anyway (and it's the same thing PTA attacked you for on A&B) and you're drawing attention to yourself by brazenly saying "I wish I was on this wagon, I did have a gut read on rofl but the people who did vote him are opportunistic scum". I do however think a position on the wagon is a null-tell if anything.

What you say here seems confusing to me. Are you saying you believe my case on Zaphod trying to come off like everyone else is weak? That you think Plum was not faking or gloating?

I have seen Roflcopter be fairly agressive as town many times. And I actually read the game where he was SK and nommed for a scummy. He did not win but I did support his nomination. He was actually fairly agressive as SK in that game.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8269
Mostly because he still needed to find and eliminate the other scum group. Why such agression did not carry over to this game where he was also SK, I'm not sure. Other than that game and Alpha/Beta, I have not seen Rofl-scum. I voted rofl over his failure to claim and submissive give up additude. I thought he was scum with SWSWC and that he had given up so I was happy to drop the hammer on that. What do you think of this reasoning? What do you recall of the main reasoning given by Frog Dodge, nyballs, RW? Basically does anyone other than ZMD come off as scummy to you?

_________________

The case currently on ZMD is interesting though.

Although, to be fair, Zmd is a fantastic lynch and he was on the wagon. His main behaviour this game has been lurking, taking issue with semantics, lurking; with a side of active-lurking. Also stuff like insisting Death the Hogfather is still one of his suspects in 224 even though he had long been replaced. Lazy scum. Read his replies, they're all pretty much contentless or bad OMGUSes on Frog Dodging.

I can see how some of ZMD's attacks on FD could be omgus. They are fairly retailitory to them throughout the game for no real great reason and mostly in response to how FD was suspecting them. ZMD's attack on FD saying "FD thought he would live" is absolute crap. Very weak because they took that out of context. I don't believe FD thought they would die there. ZMD took something FD said way out of context there. I think I may support a ZMD wagon on both of those grounds (OMGUS and pushing weak/crap logic).

_________________

I am also not liking RW at the moment for the points I brought up in my recent posts.

I'm also really not liking ZMD and RW atm. I can see how protections and blocks sent pregame can muddy the water but their insistance on Frogdodge being SK solely for a sentence taken way out of context is bad. I don't see that part as a valid case on FD worth pushing.

Posts 274-276 by RW really bother me aswell. Each one doesn't seem to individually add much to the game. I think they should have waited and combined those 3 posts at the very least.

Back to RW. After maybe trying not to lynch A&B so darn quickly, or something, whatever it was, he votes them to L-1 (they'd been there on and off for about that whole page) for 'being scum'. That's about the most explicit he got there.

What part of lynching an sk do you not like? Please enlighten me with your wisdom as I would really ike to know why it was not good we lynched A&B!

I don't believe you were exactly so certain yourself. You did seem to waver some on the prospect of A&B being an SK.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#1653027
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 71#1654871
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 07#1655207
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 11#1656411
Also a few people brought up your actions of putting A&B at L-1 pre-claim, in the context of scum can feezibly kill someone not on the wagon at that time. The daykill of a player there would then shorten the max number of players in the game aswell as what would be needed for a majority lynch. This could then cause any player at L-1 to become auto-lynched since all votes on the wagon would not disapear. the only vote that would disappear would be that of the player not on the wagon. In general putting a player at L-1 carries some risk for the town. Risk mafia wouldn't need to worry about especially since A&B wasn't mafia.

I am likly to vote one of Ortohoops, Zaphod, RW, or ZMD after twighlight pending their responses to all this. Votes don't count during twighlight right now.

>>End of Freaking huge post

[Zmd]

When doctor's sent their protection in, guess what. Neither had anyone else at all. The game hadn't started yet.

You're right. My bad.

Even if that weren't true, though, numerous players had already stated that they thought we were protown. You point falls down on every possible level. The real problem, however, seems to be that you fail at reading. Go read the post where the quote came from. Then tell me that it looks like we thought we would survive.

You guys can start digging our grave once we're dead, and not a minute before, OK?

I read this as confidence in survival.

But:

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise.

You're right. This isn't confidence at all.

Yeah, no. Stop being stupid. The case on you is based on numerous factors - you are lurkish. You fail at giving any useful input - all your posts are either refuting arguments against you or posts like iso 3 - where you say nothing of worth or of use to anyone. You avoid talking about any of the major suspects or wagons in this game - you are trying to avoid the limelight, trying to avoid giving anything away. You have focused on trotsky as a convenient excuse to not talk about A&B, PTA, Yosiwen/Ortohoops, Raging Wishbone... we don't even know what you think about, well, anything. Ortohoops you think is scum because of

and that's it. A&B you "didn't see the case on". You've not mentioned the PTA wagon. You've not mentioned SWSWC coming up scum. When you are so focused, off in your own little world, like you are, my gut screams scum. There's no need to scumhunt if you already know who is scum, right?

lurkish-laziness with Walls-O-Text.

fail at giving any useful input- I'm giving opinions where I have them.

refuting arguments or say nothing of worth- My post-style is a responsive one. I respond to what stands out. This can be seen in almost any mafia game I have ever played.

avoid talking about major suspects- I talk about who I suspect. I don't care who everyone else suspects. Ok, if someone is near a lynch, I either agree or ask for reasons. But aside from that, only my suspicions matter to me.

trying to avoid limelight-untrue.

focused on trotsky as an excuse not to talk about...-No. I have suspected Trotsky all game. So that's who I focus on. A&B was dead before I really got a chance to comment. I did state that I'd have believed his claim if I was around at the time. I was wrong. *shrug*. PTA, I have a town read on. Yos/Nuwen, I am neutral on. Slight town lean. RW, same as Yos/Nuwen. Ortohoops, yeah, that's why I'm suspicious of them. They called out an opportunistic wagon and then jumped on one that was even more opportunistic.

Ok, Shaft/EK were scum. I was wrong on that. What more do you expect me to say?

Have you even seen my scum game? I try to take complete control of everything. I pick who I want lynched and make it happen. I make the strongest case I can, shrug it off the next day when I'm wrong, and do it all again the next day. I guess it means nothing because you haven't seen me as scum, but I feel insulted that you think I play like this as scum.

you could try pushing your cases (give reasons, attack the player, etc), you could compromise and move to more successful wagons. AT THE VERY LEAST YOU SHOULD PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME RATHER THAN JUST SOMEHOW DECIDE THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE A LIST OF SUSPECTS THIS MAKES YOU IMMUNE TO CRITICISM. NEWSFLASH: IT HELPS TOWN WHEN YOU COMMENT ON STUFF.

Let me make something clear. I'll do it your way and use caps. I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT CRITICISM. NOWHERE DID I EVER CLAIM TO BE IMMUNE TO IT. NOBODY IS IMMUNE TO IT. I HAVE SUSPECTS AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THAT IS WHO I WANT LYNCHED, NOT THAT NO ONE CAN SUSPECT ME. Maybe it's clear now. We'll see.

I don't understand their case on Ojando, even though I'm guessing its their third choice and probably just a gut feeling.

Yeah, it was based on Hogfather's actions. I don't have much on Ojando after that.

Going back and reading everyones posts again; yos/nuw, pokealpca, nyballs, trotsky, zaphod, ect are all using some form of comunication to chat. They keep mentioning it in their posts... Ortohoops and Zmd aint mentioning it much but I aint really worried about it at this point...

We actually haven't talked much about the game. She is way too far behind to know what is going on. V__V

--------------------------

RW raises valid points on JScope, but then backs off too quickly IMO. Why?

RW's unbolded vote and real vote in next post looks a little like an intentional post waster..

Trotsky was a SK.

lol. Close enough.

Guess FD isn't SK then.

Suspects in order: RW, JScope, Ortohoops, Ojando.

Although, to be fair, Zmd is a fantastic lynch and he was on the wagon. His main behaviour this game has been lurking, taking issue with semantics, lurking; with a side of active-lurking. Also stuff like insisting Death the Hogfather is still one of his suspects in 224 even though he had long been replaced. Lazy scum. Read his replies, they're all pretty much contentless or bad OMGUSes on Frog Dodging.

Vote: Zmd

lurking-lazy with walls-o-text

taking issue with semantics-where?

active lurking- how?

Hogfather- Yeah, they was replaced. But I don't excuse their actions when looking at Ojando.

I don't see my posts as contentless.

Oh, and it's twilight. Why are you voting? XD

I've been thinking really hard about how to resolve this, and I've considered:
1. changing the action phase mechanic to something similar to alpha's, but a bit more mild
2. setting a calendar deadline, with largest minority lynching at deadline
3. abandoning the game
4 eliminating the prod mechanic entirely (or amend it)

I think the game is fine how it is. Abandoning it would make no sense IMO.

-----------------------------------

We've lynched 2 SKs. I'm going to analyze them and see what I get.

Orange will indicate SK. Red for Mafia. Green for town. Black is for living players.

Apples and Banana

: 6 :

sex w/ shafteds wife club

, Ortohoops,

Trotsky

, Death the Hogfather,

Incamnito

, Raging Wishbone, J-Scope
PoketheAlpaca: 2: Yosariwen, Frog Dodging,
Ortohoops: 2 :Zmd,

Apples and Banana

Trotsky

: 1 :PoketheAlpaca,
Death the Hogfather: 1 :Zaphod Beeblebrox,
Zmd: 1 :J-Scope,

not voting: 1 :nyballosulgniirkps,

Ortohoops gets slight town points. Hogfather (Ojando) scum points. RW slight scum. J-Scope null.

PtA voted an SK alone. Town points. ny not voting is scum points.

So based on the A&B lynch alone (does NOT reflect my actual opinions):
Scummy:
Ojando
RW
ny

Townish:
Orto
PtA

We don't have a vote count very close to the Trotsky lynch, but I'll get one.

Raging Wishbone: 3 :Yosariwen, Zaphod Beeblebrox, J-Scope
Zaphod Beeblebrox: 2 :

Trotsky

, Ojando
Frog Dodging 1 :J-Scope,

Trotsky

: 6 :Zmd, Ortohoops, Frog Dodging, nyballosulgniirkps, Raging Wishbone, PoketheAlpaca

PtA is null. FD, ny, and RW get scum points.

This wagon only:
Scummy:
FD
ny
RW

Both vote counts show ny and RW as scummy.

New suspect list:
Rw, JScope, ny. Orto is still on my radar. Ojando, I'm not very concerned with right now. I think PtA is town. FD, I'm back and forth on. I think Yos/Nuwen and Zaphod are town.

I think if I was going to vote (it's twilight, so won't bother), it would be for RW. I'd also be ok lynching JScope or ny.

[Ojando]

You guys can start digging our grave once we're dead, and not a minute before, OK?

I read this as confidence in survival.

But:

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise.

You're right. This isn't confidence at all.

A problem I have with getting your thought process of suspecting FD based on the first sentence here is that the quoted second sentence is originally directly subsequent to the first one.

Have you even seen my scum game? I try to take complete control of everything. I

pick who I want lynched and make it happen.

I make the strongest case I can, shrug it off the next day when I'm wrong, and do it all again the next day. I guess it means nothing because you haven't seen me as scum, but I feel insulted that you think I play like this as scum.

Let me make something clear. I'll do it your way and use caps. I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT CRITICISM. NOWHERE DID I EVER CLAIM TO BE IMMUNE TO IT. NOBODY IS IMMUNE TO IT.

I HAVE SUSPECTS AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THAT IS WHO I WANT LYNCHED

, NOT THAT NO ONE CAN SUSPECT ME. Maybe it's clear now. We'll see.

You feel insulted because you say would be more active and make cases to the best of your ability as scum. In this game earlier you mostly didn't put arguments forward or make cases; more typical was name list with little substance/putting forward a lone vote based on impression which marginalizes contribution. You state you want your suspects lynched. You state you have the ability be convincing and get others lynched. This you do as scum though. As town, you don't bother although you do want your suspects lynched. So being vague and light on content earlier is a town tell for you. That's convenient.
Also, you somehow think it's much worse play to be initiative-lackingly scummy as scum than as town.
Correct me if I misunderstood something there but that thought process really seems to leak.


Regarding FD not dying. The snipped sentence of them being confident pursued by Zmd and RW was utter rubbish. Contentwise FD has come off as townish to me.
There's one thing I'm somewhat uncomfortable with though after reviewing that near-death bit again (since mafia doctor is a possible role and its target buddy/sk are the only roles that would know about own protection).
The rules say that kills will be posted in thread between 6 and 30 hours after the mod receives them by PM. FD posted their "last words" in two posts roughly 18 hours after A&B had stated they had submitted a FD kill.
I looked at JDodge's and Shanba's sitewide posting at that time. Shanba didn't post elsewhere at that time. JDodge posted 12 posts in Mish mash starting a couple of hours after A&B's claim to have submitted a FD kill.
Quotes of interest from the posts spread 20 minuts apart:

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise.

Every post should have a purpose beyond the addressing of one particular point or idea, every post should try and contain some amount of contribution from both players - unfortunately, I didn't manage to get online before my other head posted and talk to him, so I have to waste a post here. C'est la vie.

@FD: Which of the posts was made by Shanba and which by JDodge?

@people knowledgeable about meta: For something else I was looking at, could someone please tell me if Yosarian and Nuwen would be considered normally in average more active than shafted and elvis.knits?

[Frog Dodging]

137 was Jdodge, 138 was Shanba.

This one is also by Shanba: I mention this because this is the only game I am in atm, and due to upcoming V/LA difficulties the only one I can continue to commit to. So I'd rather it wasn't abandoned.

We're still in twilight, otherwise my vote would be on ZMD.

ZMD: How exactly did you come to your conclusions from that vote count analysis? It seems to me that you just picked names at random off the vote count and decided that these people are scummy. Honestly, I'm about done with arguing with you. There's nothing to argue against, just a whole load of bluster and OMGUS. When you saw Raging Wishbone's attack on us, did you even go back and read the post he was referencing? Or were you just happy to have mud to sling at us? Yeesh.

[Zmd]

Ojando, as scum, I am a better player. I am more confident in my actions. I know my plan and I go with it. As town, I get my ideas and try to push them, but I'm second guessing myself any time people agree with me. I'm less confident and more unsure. And me lurking is a nulltell, not a towntell. It's more the game than anything else. It's not that I'm not enjoying it, because I am. It's just more work than most games.

FD, I'll admit I didn't look as closely as I could have. If I remember correctly, I read what they quoted and their post and thought, "wow, good point". That was my mistake.

Also, this is gonna piss some people off, but if I get near a lynch, I won't claim. Enough people see me as scummy that I can accept my own lynch instead of being lynched later when we have less mislynches availible to us. And if I were to survive the lynch, I have the scum WIFOMing over my role and trying to decide if they need to worry about me or not. All I am going to say is that if I am a power role, I have no valuable information to share yet. That's as close to a claim as I am getting even if I am at L-1 with everyone else threatening to hammer. Take it how you will, but that's what I am doing and I'm set on that.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Also, this is gonna piss some people off, but if I get near a lynch, I won't claim. Enough people see me as scummy that I can accept my own lynch instead of being lynched later when we have less mislynches availible to us. And if I were to survive the lynch, I have the scum WIFOMing over my role and trying to decide if they need to worry about me or not. All I am going to say is that if I am a power role, I have no valuable information to share yet. That's as close to a claim as I am getting even if I am at L-1 with everyone else threatening to hammer. Take it how you will, but that's what I am doing and I'm set on that.

My partner and I were going to post a big case on RW, but now with ZMD's admission of guilt, there isn't much point.

Here's what I had:

Votecount as of post 213:

PoketheAlpaca: 3 :Ortohoops, J-Scope, Ojando
Raging Wishbone: 2 :Yosariwen, nyballosulgniirkps,
Trotsky: 2 :Zmd, Zaphod Beeblebrox,
Ortohoops: 1 :PoketheAlpaca
zmd: 1 :Frog Dodging,

=========================

Votecount as of post 238:

Raging Wishbone: 4 :Yosariwen, nyballosulgniirkps, Zaphod Beeblebrox, J-Scope
Zaphod Beeblebrox: 2 :Trotsky, Ojando
PoketheAlpaca: 1 :Ortohoops,
Frog Dodging 1 :J-Scope,
Trotsky: 1 :Zmd,
Ortohoops: 1 :PoketheAlpaca
zmd: 1 :Frog Dodging,
J-Scope: 1 :Raging Wishbone

============================

The scum is RW.

Frog Dodging may be his scumpal judging by post #260.

My other hydra head had much more - the case should be coming soon.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Oh I forgot, this was the rationale:

WAIT - what was the alternate wagon???

Whoever was "saved" by the Trotsky lynch has got to be scum.

That'd be RW.

[Zmd]

ZMD: How exactly did you come to your conclusions from that vote count analysis? It seems to me that you just picked names at random off the vote count and decided that these people are scummy.

See what happens when I don't use quotes? I forget to respond to stuff.

A&B wagon, I looked at the lynch as a townie lynch because scum would see it as that and vote the same way. Ortohoops probably wouldn't be dumb enough to vote right behind a buddy. And the vote was really early (second). The hammer could come from either alignment. The other votes are scummy. Not voting is scummy. PtA was on another wagon, alone. That player was lynched next as SK. That's where their town points come from. (Noticed a mistake. JScope's vote on me was gone when they hammered). Oh, the same reasoning can fit as town points for Zaphod too, actually.

The Trotsky lynch, nobody is confirmed on that wagon. I know myself to be town, and Ortohoops voted pretty early again. The rest of the votes, except the hammer, get scum points.

Put them together and ny/RW got scumpoints on both.

Zaphod, no admission of guilt there. Just acceptance of a lynch so that I'm not mislynched in LYLO.

I might not post again for a while. Just a heads up. If I'm needed, I'll be here. I'm just not gonna post unless it's absolutely needed.

[Raging Wishbone]

i missed this little nugget the first time around i guess

I CANT vote ZAPHOD (Although my oarner wanted too)...maybe you can but I wont because she WROTE in this BETA game the "reason she was leaving mafiascum forever was because of being accussed of being scum when she was TOWN?"... I mean don't that mean nothing to you?

lynch all lurkers mafia

amnesia mafia

these are just some of the games i assume dgb was actually referring to as her "reason to leave mafiascum forever." dgb being the classy and sportsmanlike lady she is would not refer to ongoing games in a rant about leaving the site.

FTR, I believe I complained about certain players thinking I'm "scum in every game."

I don't recall commenting on my actual alignment in any of these games.

In any event - my read was correct. Unfortunately, it'll be difficult to search for linkages with a SK.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot of scum on Trotsky's wagon, because beyond gut reads, there wasn't much of a case, roflcopter's habit of lurking as scum gave him away.

Trotsky wagon: ZMD, Ortohoops, Frog Dodge, nyballs, RW, Pokethe Alpaca

I'm very sad not to be on that list, but paradoxically I'd be delighted to vote any player that is on it. How 'bout that.

meh, you did comment on your aligment here....

hey zaphod why are you ignoring post 41 even after a second request for you to acknowledge it?

i say we pick someone for a+b to kill and then lynch him. my choice for that kill is zaphod.

Aw, there we go again, I'm scum in every game. You're half the reason why I'm not going to play anymore after I finish my current commitments.

A&B said he already submitted his kill.

I'm happy to be lynched in any game I have the misfortune of having signed up for with you in it.

Don't forget to post under your hydra name next time.

VOTE: Zaphod

Regardless of the above statement DGb is not playing normal and I do not think it is due to the mechanics of the game after her exchange with Trotsky.

@Adel - I don't want to abandond and would support any secnario that does not penalize anyone for posting too much?

[Yosarian2]

Also, this is gonna piss some people off, but if I get near a lynch, I won't claim. Enough people see me as scummy that I can accept my own lynch instead of being lynched later when we have less mislynches availible to us. And if I were to survive the lynch, I have the scum WIFOMing over my role and trying to decide if they need to worry about me or not. All I am going to say is that if I am a power role, I have no valuable information to share yet. That's as close to a claim as I am getting even if I am at L-1 with everyone else threatening to hammer. Take it how you will, but that's what I am doing and I'm set on that.

My partner and I were going to post a big case on RW, but now with ZMD's admission of guilt, there isn't much point.

Interesting. How is this an "admission of guilt"?

Anyway, I already PM'd adel saying I want this game to contine. Honestly, I'd kind of rather it continue the way it has been; changing it into a "normal' mafia game now would be kind of jarring, and honestly, strange as it may sound, this game has actually worked somewhat better then I expected.

I guess I'd go for option 4; trying to post every 72 hours just to avoid the prod, when otherwise that wouldnt' be the stratgically correct choice, just feels unnatural to me. (and, obviously, I haven't really been doing it anyway, although I was trying earlier.)

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

meh, you did comment on your aligment here....

hey zaphod why are you ignoring post 41 even after a second request for you to acknowledge it?

i say we pick someone for a+b to kill and then lynch him. my choice for that kill is zaphod.

Aw, there we go again, I'm scum in every game. You're half the reason why I'm not going to play anymore after I finish my current commitments.

A&B said he already submitted his kill.

I'm happy to be lynched in any game I have the misfortune of having signed up for with you in it.

Don't forget to post under your hydra name next time.

Where the heck do I say that I was

ACTUALLY

scum or town? I said he accused me of being scum from the get go in every game. Thank for for providing the proof that I did not comment on my alignment.

@ Yosarian:
Zmd is barely under attack. He may be the first wagon of the day. But already he's throwing in the towel, refusing to claim, accepting his lynch, but soft-claiming a power role in the hope that he'll be spared without risk of being counterclaimed, or being accountable. And we are warned we won't get more at L-1 with everyone salivating to hammer. That's scumtalk.

[Raging Wishbone]

meh, you did comment on your aligment here....

hey zaphod why are you ignoring post 41 even after a second request for you to acknowledge it?

i say we pick someone for a+b to kill and then lynch him. my choice for that kill is zaphod.

Aw, there we go again, I'm scum in every game. You're half the reason why I'm not going to play anymore after I finish my current commitments.

A&B said he already submitted his kill.

I'm happy to be lynched in any game I have the misfortune of having signed up for with you in it.

Don't forget to post under your hydra name next time.

Where the heck do I say that I was

ACTUALLY

scum or town? I said he accused me of being scum from the get go in every game. Thank for for providing the proof that I did not comment on my alignment.

@ Yosarian:
Zmd is barely under attack. He may be the first wagon of the day. But already he's throwing in the towel, refusing to claim, accepting his lynch, but soft-claiming a power role in the hope that he'll be spared without risk of being counterclaimed, or being accountable. And we are warned we won't get more at L-1 with everyone salivating to hammer. That's scumtalk.

Tis implied by the context of your statement.... Meh...

UNVOTE: VOTE ZMD

I agree; with the bit about not claiming might have been a priority and was on of the most prudent thing for ZMD to do but if he is Townie he had nothing to claim.

... Damn, I seem more like DGB in play style these days than DGB does her self. Getting all waginy and stuff.

[Raging Wishbone]

Although just to clarify, you can not win as scum yeah or no? Can you based on your statement?

That is a theoritical question for mafiascum games... would it be an Ethics violation = for you to win as scum after that statment?

YOU are the one who went out of you way to clarify your alignemnt had nothing to do with you leaving mafiascum! So please explain why?

Also, let me know why I should not derail the ZMD wagon?

[J-Scope]

Are we still in twilight?

Alpaca's post got me to thinking about that early SWSWC post too:

Not really liking Orto's defense that "my hydra partner did it!" in regards to the three fluff posts PtA pointed out. You and your hydra are the same player in this game. That's a BS defense. I do agree however that some of those "fluff posts" were direct replies to questions asked by other players.

I think shafted had motive to pressure scumbuddies in post 164 where he ended up voting Alpaca over a lot more points than he had for anyone else. The momentum he could have potentially given to a scumbuddy wagon was lessened by the momentum he created for Alpaca’s wagon.

He also suspected the dead SK’s a little bit but the only other living players he pressured was Kairyuu, who is now Ojando:

Don't understand why Kirayuu requires input from his hydra before posting. I realize you want to conserve posts but you seem to be able to post in other mafia games all by your lonesome. Even weirder that he's feinding worry about placing a vote during a phase where votes cannot be placed and no other players have votes on them even if they could. Possibly faked concern here.

The last bit is most interesting to me. Shafted implies that Kairyuu could be putting on an act, which sounds like a scummy act and not an anti-town act.

These are just small samples though so I don’t feel confidant in either hydra being more likely scum buddies with shaft.ed unless I can see them as scummy hydras in their own posts.

----------------------

There is another possibilities now in light of trotsky's reveal. He was SK that wanted Zaphod lynched after his death. Wanting Zaphod lynched after having lost the game as SK, means trotsky could have only wanted one thing there. He actually thought Zaphod was scum with SWSWC and if he(trotsky) couldn't win as SK, he didn't want Zaphod to win either.

I’m not sure I believe that motive because it had no effect on Trotsky. He clearly wanted to lynch Zaphod and I think he could have wanted that whether she was scum or town.

----------------------

Ojando, as scum, I am a better player. I am more confident in my actions. I know my plan and I go with it.

How is the following not being confident?:

Scum are Ortohoops, Trotsky, and Death The Hogfather.

Read Trotsky/Korts/Rofl in isolation and tell me they aren't scum.

I get that the first could be interpreted by us as a normal suspect list but you come off as incredibly confident and deliberate in both quotes. Where are you second guessing when people agree with you about Trotsky?

Suspects in order: RW, JScope, Ortohoops, Ojando.

What points of RW's do you agree with against me? I don’t recall you mentioning this before. Since RW and I think the other is scum, do you think that one or the other is scum? How likely is 1 of us scum?

I still like a RW lynch and I'll try to give all my reasons in a day or two.

[Ojando]

Zmd doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
With 10 players alive/2 sk's, 1 mafioso and only 1 townie dead, we really can't be close to lylo anytime soon so resigning "to avoid lylo mislynch" seems off, especially strongly after softclaiming. It's not exasperation with the game itself as he thinks it's fine so I don't get it.

Vote: Trotsky

Not entirely opposed to this wagon. Useless tunneling on Zaphod and general lack of depth in his posts. We also are running low on posts. I'd still prefer a Raging Wishbone lynch, but I do not believe it will happen.

This not entirely opposed thing made me twitch and I just went waaait a minute with the preference. At this point with 6 to lynch RW had 4 votes, Trotsky 3, you yourself reversed it to RW 3 Trotsky 4.
Why did you believe a RW lynch wouldn't happen?

@FD: thanks.
Meh, having native English would be very convenient, I just realized I have mixed up "prudent" and "urgent".

Since our mortality is on the line here, I feel it prudent to share every last thought I have on this game before our untimely demise.

After A&B had said FD kill had been submitted and it seemed FD could die any minute there was a couple of hours to JDodge's 12 mish mash posts and 15 hours gap after those to JDodge's "final words" post. Thing is, "urgent" would have been fake wording, "prudent" not as much.
JD posted his post, 6 minutes after that Shanba posted a (reasonably sized after-game post) and 17 min after that Shanba posted here. For that reason

unfortunately, I didn't manage to get online before my other head posted and talk to him, so I have to waste a post here.

seemed possibly off to me.
Anyway, I was confused about prudent which lessens this.

Oh yeah and forgot to say:
@Adel, I (Ojanen half) don't see reason to abandon either, still like playing.

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Vote: Raging Wishbone

- I'm sticking with where I left off. At this point, top two suspects are ZMD and Raging Wishbone. I have explained my reasons for both in previous posts.

Regardless of the above statement DGb is not playing normal and I do not think it is due to the mechanics of the game after her exchange with Trotsky.

Care to explain? Why do you not believe it's because of the game mechanic?

The Frog Dodging attacks are getting pretty stale. First it was that he was the serial killer. Now that that's over and done with, the speculation is that he received the scum doctor protection. Can anyone point to scuminess in their actual play? That would probably be a more promising place to start.

Vote: Trotsky

Not entirely opposed to this wagon. Useless tunneling on Zaphod and general lack of depth in his posts. We also are running low on posts. I'd still prefer a Raging Wishbone lynch, but I do not believe it will happen.

This not entirely opposed thing made me twitch and I just went waaait a minute with the preference. At this point with 6 to lynch RW had 4 votes, Trotsky 3, you yourself reversed it to RW 3 Trotsky 4.
Why did you believe a RW lynch wouldn't happen?

Yes, it was 4 VS 3. I didn't thoroughly count the votes, though. At that point I went for who I thought would be most likely to be lynched, and it seemed to me that a Trotsky was growing, while others(Frog Dodging comes to mind), gave an indication of believing Raging Wishbone was just dumb town, so unlikely to switch.

[Saunt Adelaus]

Are we still in twilight?

Yes. Twilight will last until I figure if or how I will change the rule set. I think I am close to a solution.

Abandonment is now off the table of options.

[Zmd]

Zaphod, I'm not "throwing in the towel". I'm doing something that benefits town. I'll explain it postgame if I have to. I tried and failed at the same thing in a game on SA right after I made my post here. Basically, my thinking is that I am seen as scummy by too many people to be here later. So whether I'm a power role or a vanilla, it helps town for me to not be in LYLO. Now, we have a lot of days to work with, so this will be better than on SA. I can afford to die. If I am the lynch target, I can accept that. That doesn't mean I'm going to give up and stop scumhunting and stop trying to win. If I'm not lynched, the scum now know that they will not find out what my role is. The only exception is LYLO with one scum remaining. So I have the scum WIFOMing over what role could benefit from not claiming while facing a lynch. Town doesn't have to worry about that. All town has to worry about is if I'm town trying something different or if I'm scum trying to get out of making a crap claim instead of bullshitting an easy claim (cop with innocents on actual townies, cop with guilty on a buddy, tracker claiming someone did nothing to either "confirm" myself or draw out a power role, etc.)

JScope, I rarely show my second guessing, but it usually happens when my lynch choice is close to actually being lynched. I start to think "oh shit, I'm wrong. I should back off" but then I think "Well, they were scummy and I pushed. Maybe I'm right" and I debate with myself. But I almost always keep pushing anyway unless the person has strongly convinced me that I'm wrong (see Drench in Robot Chicken). For examples of times I've second guessed without showing it, off the top of my head see Dejkha in Immunity Mafia, open game 119 I think. Or BlakAdder in Mini 677, Powerball Mafia. It happens all the time. I just don't show it. I second guessed Trotsky a little just before the exchange with Zaphod.

I have you and RW as my top two choices, so yes, I think the chances are high that at least one of you is scum. Not because of your suspicions on each other.

Ojando, the fact that we aren't near LYLO means we can afford a mislynch. If I'm going to be lynched, I'd rather it be now than closer to LYLO.

[J-Scope]

Why I think RagingWishbone is scum
A report by J-Scope
3rd period scuminomics

This first part is rehash but I still think it is valid. Also note that they never commented on these thoughts when I posted them the first time:

I think RW misrepresented the initial Yosariwen vote on them by saying this:

The fact and addition of needing to prove themselves by claiming they have 4 AIM chats that will "knock are socks off" seems completely scummy.

It looks to me like RW is trying to undermine Yosariwen’s initial vote on them by making it look like Yosariwen had acknowledged the chats as a justification for voting (which I don’t agree with) along with eventually releasing the chats as an offensive, instead of defensive, play, when it was clear that RW made them release the chats. RW’s conclusion that the situation was “completely scummy” here looks reactive and exaggerated.

I think RW is trying to compare the situation to alpha, where YosNuwen was scum, without evidence to explain why the alpha meta applies.

I will not FUCKING be crucified in this game the same way I was in the Alpha game for making a good choice on lynching scum!

It also seems very early and unprovoked to use emotional words like "FUCKING be crucified", so I feel this could be a deliberate exaggeration to heighten the importance of the case through emotion as a possible motive.

--------------------------------------

Secondly, I feel that Raging Wishbone has treated his case on me in a similar manner. RW attacked me for my posting of quicktopic chats here:

I mean J-Scope did you post that quick topic to make fun of us all? You have 8 posts, you YOURSELF claim that is was original from Alpha, anyone reading the content can tell you faked it! I mean you "faked it so bad" it is hard to believe scum would make such a huge mistake twice?

This quote paints me in a bad light and does not acknowledge my side of the story that explained why it looked fake. It is misrepresentation to say I posted the QT’s for a reason on my own accord, because the only one that wanted the QT’s was RW himself:

@Ortohoops and JScope still waiting for your screencaps so we can compare them to the Alpha game.

Yeah, well qt aside, you are slipping under the radar once again like alpha.

This looks like an attempt to compare scum-alpha-Jscope with beta-Jscope without using any evidence, so I don’t trust the motive they had for bringing this up.

--------------------------------------

His next vote (post 267) raises some questions for me. This was the most tangible reason he gave:

J-Scope is the best lynch due to his arugments on daytalk and his associations with sexed!

The first part does not fit with what they had previously said here to end our argument on daytalk:

I am not completely convinced, however I buy enough of what you wrote to...

UNVOTE: J-Scope

And the second part, my supposed associations with shaft.ed, was not explained in that post. Most of 267 was about how K-Scope was a bad partner, but he doesn’t use it as a reason for voting, even though a skim read might suggest he thinks it’s a scumtell. That’s what it feels like to me:

The first thing he should have done is send you a pm to asky you to catch him up to speed...actually whether scum or Town.

And althought he did not explain why he thought I had associations with shaft.ed, I found what he probably meant and I see a double standard in his scumtell:

RW For the love of God...see above. I'm getting a townish read off of RW for what it matters.

J-Scope Thanks for sharing the tidbit about falsifying logs. This is townie points for J-Scope. Although if scum, he might just not feel like being bothered to create fake logs Wink However, what do you like about Trotsky's Zaphod case? There's nothing there.

In both cases he told us a little thing he didn’t like, with your quote pyramids and my deceptive capabilities, but he also completed the read as more town than scum.

He also hadn’t commented on those points I made from an earlier post so there they are again.

--------------------------------------

@RW: What scumtells do you still think are valid against me? Do you think anything looked scummy before but now you aren’t sure or don’t think is a scumtell?

Do you think shaft.ed’s post to me was any different than what he said to you?

Do you know why I talked to myself in my QuickTopic? Or is it just that you know I am capable of faking it so you think the new stuff could very well be fake too? If so, why ask for them?

Why did the argument about QuickTopics reappear as a reason for voting me in post 267 after you unvoted over that same argument in post 257?

[Raging Wishbone]

Why I think RagingWishbone is scum
A report by J-Scope
3rd period scuminomics

This first part is rehash but I still think it is valid. Also note that they never commented on these thoughts when I posted them the first time:

I think RW misrepresented the initial Yosariwen vote on them by saying this:

The fact and addition of needing to prove themselves by claiming they have 4 AIM chats that will "knock are socks off" seems completely scummy.

It looks to me like RW is trying to undermine Yosariwen’s initial vote on them by making it look like Yosariwen had acknowledged the chats as a justification for voting (which I don’t agree with) along with eventually releasing the chats as an offensive, instead of defensive, play, when it was clear that RW made them release the chats. RW’s conclusion that the situation was “completely scummy” here looks reactive and exaggerated.

I think RW is trying to compare the situation to alpha, where YosNuwen was scum, without evidence to explain why the alpha meta applies.

I will not FUCKING be crucified in this game the same way I was in the Alpha game for making a good choice on lynching scum!

It also seems very early and unprovoked to use emotional words like "FUCKING be crucified", so I feel this could be a deliberate exaggeration to heighten the importance of the case through emotion as a possible motive.

--------------------------------------

Secondly, I feel that Raging Wishbone has treated his case on me in a similar manner. RW attacked me for my posting of quicktopic chats here:

I mean J-Scope did you post that quick topic to make fun of us all? You have 8 posts, you YOURSELF claim that is was original from Alpha, anyone reading the content can tell you faked it! I mean you "faked it so bad" it is hard to believe scum would make such a huge mistake twice?

This quote paints me in a bad light and does not acknowledge my side of the story that explained why it looked fake. It is misrepresentation to say I posted the QT’s for a reason on my own accord, because the only one that wanted the QT’s was RW himself:

@Ortohoops and JScope still waiting for your screencaps so we can compare them to the Alpha game.

Yeah, well qt aside, you are slipping under the radar once again like alpha.

This looks like an attempt to compare scum-alpha-Jscope with beta-Jscope without using any evidence, so I don’t trust the motive they had for bringing this up.

--------------------------------------

His next vote (post 267) raises some questions for me. This was the most tangible reason he gave:

J-Scope is the best lynch due to his arugments on daytalk and his associations with sexed!

The first part does not fit with what they had previously said here to end our argument on daytalk:

I am not completely convinced, however I buy enough of what you wrote to...

UNVOTE: J-Scope

And the second part, my supposed associations with shaft.ed, was not explained in that post. Most of 267 was about how K-Scope was a bad partner, but he doesn’t use it as a reason for voting, even though a skim read might suggest he thinks it’s a scumtell. That’s what it feels like to me:

The first thing he should have done is send you a pm to asky you to catch him up to speed...actually whether scum or Town.

And althought he did not explain why he thought I had associations with shaft.ed, I found what he probably meant and I see a double standard in his scumtell:

RW For the love of God...see above. I'm getting a townish read off of RW for what it matters.

J-Scope Thanks for sharing the tidbit about falsifying logs. This is townie points for J-Scope. Although if scum, he might just not feel like being bothered to create fake logs Wink However, what do you like about Trotsky's Zaphod case? There's nothing there.

In both cases he told us a little thing he didn’t like, with your quote pyramids and my deceptive capabilities, but he also completed the read as more town than scum.

He also hadn’t commented on those points I made from an earlier post so there they are again.

--------------------------------------

@RW: What scumtells do you still think are valid against me? Do you think anything looked scummy before but now you aren’t sure or don’t think is a scumtell?

Do you think shaft.ed’s post to me was any different than what he said to you?

Do you know why I talked to myself in my QuickTopic? Or is it just that you know I am capable of faking it so you think the new stuff could very well be fake too? If so, why ask for them?

Why did the argument about QuickTopics reappear as a reason for voting me in post 267 after you unvoted over that same argument in post 257?

rofl, this was your breakthrough case a good ole fashion load of OMGUS... Geee, J-Scope let me humbly apoligize for anything I wrote that implied you were scum (without proof you are scum) or if I hurt your feelings, because you seem so sensitive these days... I also would like to take this opporutunity to thank you FUCKING up a gambit I was playing! meh although the gambit was on you and Orthohoop and YES genius it was based on Alpha...so you are saying I made... what a mistake by basing my opinions on Alpha... rofl, your case is epic fail.

UNVOTE: ZMD

@Zmd - I will give you the benefit of the doubt based on your post.

[Raging Wishbone]

@J-scope - your post#322 was the most defensive post made this game based on my erroneous comments, gambit, jokes, sarcasm, ect to keep the game moving when it was dying....

You asked what scum tales I think are valid against you, among many other questions, but in the end it all ends up being ONGUS.