The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[zwetschenwasser]

I see nothing scummy in a resurrection of a worthy discussion topic.

[Battle Mage]

No, scouam.

Zwet blows...



Smoke.

BM

[Battle Mage]

unvote, votE: zwet

[zwetschenwasser]

AHAHAHAHahaHAHahahahAha

[NabakovNabakov]

His flip, of course. I wanted to lynch him to get the superpowers he claimed to have for the town.

You mean the superpower where one person dies randomly and another is killed by Mufasa, paragon of good judgment and quality scumhunting?

[zwetschenwasser]

Huh?

[NabakovNabakov]

Huh?

Please explain why the power Mufasa claimed would have helped the town.

[The Replacement]

Once again Yosarian, you ignore the points I make by drawing your own separate points that I am not in disagreement with you about.

Here is the initial point Dr Pepper brought up against Dingo:

dingo, I find that accusation of Percy not contributing to be unfounded. He is clearly performing player analysis, calling out lurkers, and keeping the game moving. He doesnt need to commit to a lynch so early. Maybe he doesnt want the popular lynch to occur. Maybe ZONEACE will be the lynch for the day.

This is defense of Percy. Period. He isn’t questioning Dingo’s motives or reasoning, he is providing his own interpretation of Percy. He is defending Percy’s actions. Dingo did not do this of Zoneace.

Dr Pepper’s accusation was also incorrect, because Dingo wasn’t accusing Percy of not contributing.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) I still say there's nothing wrong with shooting down a bad argument. And it was a bad argument; there's nothing wrong with saying "I will vote person X until he contributes". I understand what you're saying about letting the person respond, but I still don't agree; if you just let a bad argument that you know is a bad argument fester without countering it quickly, then it's more likely that the town will just go down the wrong road for the wrong reasons; waiting isn't always the best option.

[Jahudo]

Part of my case on MikeSC6 is how he treated the day 2 wagons.

Twice he said that the Dr. Pepper and Dingo debate looked like a misunderstanding on both sides and he didn’t place suspicion on either one. Links: Post 749 and Post 808

Twice he claimed not to have read the whole debate, including one post that is after he thinks the debate is a misunderstanding. That makes me question his confidence in post 749. Links: Post 783 and Post 802

Mike shifts his focus to Mufasa pressure while wondering how people could pick dingo or pepper as intentionally misunderstood, until Post 888 when Mike starts to find Dr Pepper the scummy one.

I'm thinking of voting Dr Pepper, the posts Kaiveran posted do seem quite scummy.

This is the Kaiveran post:

As for Dr. Pepper, his repeated misreps are convincing; post 782 and 787 are good examples. Page 32 in general sold me.

This makes me think at least one of two things is true:
1) Mike still isn’t reading the debate by Post 888 after he claimed to catchup in Post 802.
2) Mike waited for the most viable lynch wagon to appear and he threw momentum to it.

And I’m leaning on believing option 2 because the vote count at that time was 4 votes for Dr. Pepper versus 2 votes for dingo

The next thing Mike said about Pepper was this:

Dr Pepper's at L-1 right now- should we wait, see if he's still playing, and if not quiz his replacement? Though I'm not sure how a replacement could defend things that have been said by a predecessor.

Which sounds like he believes Pepper has to defend some scummy tells against him; it sounds like Mike is in favor of the wagon. It was a large turnaround from thinking Dingo and Pepper were a misunderstanding to finding him scummy, and Mike didn’t have to question Pepper at all or explain what he found scummy.

This looks like cautious scum play to let the group decide between Dingo and Pepper while he kept from taking a side until he could determine the stronger wagon and add his momentum.

Vote: MikeSC6

[MikeSC6]

This is the whole post 888, of which you chose to quote one paragraph-

I wonder what this wait is doing to the people who can't post. I'm thinking of voting Dr Pepper, the posts Kaiveran posted do seem quite scummy.

If we don't get a satisfactory answer for the question you still have outstanding (I think it's the one near the bottom of page 33? That was a while ago...) I think I'll be voting. I hadn't had him pegged as scum previously, though- I can't really say why but I'd got the impression he was quite levelheaded and townie.

Unvote

You can see that my concern was that he wasn't answering the questions put to him- this post came after a few days where we had only a handful of posts, with none from Dr Pepper. Lurking when there are questions outstanding can put a player in a different light.

This makes me think at least one of two things is true:
1) Mike still isn’t reading the debate by Post 888 after he claimed to catchup in Post 802.
2) Mike waited for the most viable lynch wagon to appear and he threw momentum to it.

It is neither- you're acting as if the case against Dr Pepper remained static. I did think it was a misunderstanding, but Dr Peppers avoidance of questions through lurking, and just general avoidance when he did post, was what made me change my mind. Like I said in the post that you cut in half.

The next thing Mike said about Pepper was this:

The thing is, this wasn't the next thing. Why did you chop off the end of my post where I gave my reasons for seeing Dr Pepper in a different light, namely the lurking and the avoidance of questions?

Which sounds like he believes Pepper has to defend some scummy tells against him; it sounds like Mike is in favor of the wagon. It was a large turnaround from thinking Dingo and Pepper were a misunderstanding to finding him scummy, and Mike didn’t have to question Pepper at all or explain what he found scummy.

I believed he had questions to answer- things that, since they revolve around what Dr Pepper had said, a replacement wouldn't be able to address. And I did explain what I found scummy, the way he avoided questions.

All of your points are answered by a post of mine that you yourself quoted- although you missed out the pertinent paragraph and then, by saying "the next thing" about my next post, you seem to have tried to erase that paragraph. That smacks of deliberate misrepresentation.

[zwetschenwasser]

Huh?

Please explain why the power Mufasa claimed would have helped the town.

I DON'T KNOW DAMMIT

[Jahudo]

I wonder what this wait is doing to the people who can't post. I'm thinking of voting Dr Pepper, the posts Kaiveran posted do seem quite scummy.

If we don't get a satisfactory answer for the question you still have outstanding (I think it's the one near the bottom of page 33? That was a while ago...) I think I'll be voting. I hadn't had him pegged as scum previously, though- I can't really say why but I'd got the impression he was quite levelheaded and townie.

This second paragraph does not refer to anything in particular. What is the question on page 33? That could mean alot of things but you didn't elaborate beyond that, so I still don't know why you had a turnaround to find Pepper suspicious.

Nothing there tells me why you thought he was lurking scum and not flaking misunderstood town. When you start the turnaround you try to defend your fence-sitting with this baseless explanation, which I don't like:

I can't really say why but I'd got the impression he was quite levelheaded and townie.

And how does being levelheaded fit in with being misunderstood, something you thought he kept doing for several posts. It didn't bother you that he didn't try to see things from your perspective, but he and dingo kept getting more sure the other was scum?

Dr Peppers avoidance of questions through lurking, and just general avoidance when he did post, was what made me change my mind. Like I said in the post that you cut in half.

I am not ready to believe this. You did not ask him questions yourself, but just pointed to a page where he might have avoided a question.

Where is the general avoidance when he posted? From what I can tell, during the time he was lurking he didn't post at all. Post 811 was the last post where he answered people's questions and that was a wall of text of answers. Then he disappears for about two weeks and doesn't post once, so I don't see how you thought he was avoiding when he posted.

I'm not against the stances you took, first thinking they were both town, then finding Pepper scum; but I am questioning the way you switched because it looks under-researched, under-explained and opportunistic.

When you find the question(s) you thought Pepper was avoiding, we can go back and find every question posed to him when he was lurking and see how much was new stuff and how much he had already answered. There's probably a bit of both.

[MikeSC6]

This second paragraph does not refer to anything in particular. What is the question on page 33? That could mean alot of things but you didn't elaborate beyond that, so I still don't know why you had a turnaround to find Pepper suspicious.

It was a while ago, I can't remember exactly which questions in particular I was referring to, but we know there were questions that had built up over the argument between dingo and Dr Pepper. By "page 33" I think I was referring to dingo's post about Dr Pepper not answering his questions (which I've quoted below).

Nothing there tells me why you thought he was lurking scum and not flaking misunderstood town. When you start the turnaround you try to defend your fence-sitting with this baseless explanation, which I don't like:

I can't really say why but I'd got the impression he was quite levelheaded and townie.

And how does being levelheaded fit in with being misunderstood, something you thought he kept doing for several posts. It didn't bother you that he didn't try to see things from your perspective, but he and dingo kept getting more sure the other was scum?

Like I said, in the post you quoted, I was concerned that he wasn't answering questions, I voiced this concern after a long period of lurking when he could reasonably have been expected to have answered those questions. And I had thought him level-headed and townie, notice the past tense "I'd", before the discussion between Dingo and Dr Pepper turned to ad hominems. By saying I had an opinion of someone in the past tense indicates that the opinion has changed.

I am not ready to believe this. You did not ask him questions yourself, but just pointed to a page where he might have avoided a question.

Well yes, if someone hasn't posted in two weeks or whatever it was, why pile up questions for the sake of it? I might have had new questions for him when he answered whatever hadn't been addressed, who knows? It all depends on what his answers might have been.

Where is the general avoidance when he posted? From what I can tell, during the time he was lurking he didn't post at all. Post 811 was the last post where he answered people's questions and that was a wall of text of answers. Then he disappears for about two weeks and doesn't post once, so I don't see how you thought he was avoiding when he posted.

Again, it was far too long ago for me to remember the specifics, it's just an impression I still have from day 2. It's an impression that seems to have been shared by dingo, in the post after the one you linked-

I thought better of it and decided there was no way you had any intention of answering my questions. I mean, you read me mocking you after I ask you questions because I predict you won't answer them. And you don't. But then you ask me to post them again? If you had any intention of answering them, why don't you just answer them? Do you not know how to go back to posts you have read before? And if you can't remember what happened in previous posts, how can you possibly scum hunt?

After which Dr Pepper didn't post for a long time, prompting my post asking for him to answer these questions, whichever ones they were.

I'm not against the stances you took, first thinking they were both town, then finding Pepper scum; but I am questioning the way you switched because it looks under-researched, under-explained and opportunistic.

Two weeks inactivity after having been challenged to answer questions outstanding is enough to make a person switch their opinion. If you'll notice, in the rest of the day I don't push for Dr Pepper's lynch, I'm still talking about getting Mufasa lynched, I wasn't certain about getting Mufasa lynched because of the nature of his softclaim, but I was actively trying to get that discussion on the agenda-

If he's truly pro-town and we wait til tomorrow, he could be killed in the night and (I gather) we'd lose whatever pro-town trigger he's got. If he's anti-town (which I think he is) then not going along with his plan could at least minimise the damage.

If I was opportunistically jumping on a wagon to lynch Dr Pepper while it was popular, why didn't I do that? Why did I with-hold my vote to give him the chance to answer these questions while discussing an alternative?

When you find the question(s) you thought Pepper was avoiding, we can go back and find every question posed to him when he was lurking and see how much was new stuff and how much he had already answered. There's probably a bit of both.

I imagine I was referring to the questions that dingo was referring to in his post on page 33. But it was a while ago.

This

was

a while ago- why have you waited until now to voice these suspicions? Why couldn't you have mentioned them at the time, or yesterday?

And again, why did you miss out the part of my post that shows why my opinion had changed- the open questions after a long period of lurking- and then act as if my next post was the next thing I said on the subject rather than that, if not to misrepresent my position to fit your argument that I gave no justification?

Vote: Jahudo

I feel that the part of my post about Dr Pepper not answering questions adequately addresses your original points- and that to quote from the first half, you would have had to have read it and then you chose to remove it from the post while quoting it (and subsequently deleting it from your timeline by saying my next post was the next thing I'd said). Also, the fact that you've waited, for two game-days and more than a real-time month, before posting your suspicions- only to post them right after The Replacement has voted for me.

That

seems opportunistic.

[Jahudo]

By saying I had an opinion of someone in the past tense indicates that the opinion has changed.

That is part of the reason why I don’t like it. You changed your mind about him without showing the process of you changing your mind. I think that was necessary because it involved debates you initially ignored. By not giving an initial response you were active lurking until you could come up on the side that had already won.

Well yes, if someone hasn't posted in two weeks or whatever it was, why pile up questions for the sake of it?

But they weren’t questions that had been left unanswered for 2 weeks. It was more like 3 weeks and in that time you never gave a heads up that Pepper was holding out until the group had already decided to lynch him over it.

If I was opportunistically jumping on a wagon to lynch Dr Pepper while it was popular, why didn't I do that? Why did I with-hold my vote to give him the chance to answer these questions while discussing an alternative?

The only answers to these questions are speculation on the assumption that you are scum. When you expressed suspicion on Pepper he was at L-3 and L-2, so you (as scum or town) could have added your vote without fear of a quickhammer on him before he could answer/claim.

It doesn’t matter whether you voted or not because I’m looking for momentum on the wagon and you clearly added to it without providing anything new or establishing what in particular you liked about the old reasons. That is opportunistic IMO.

This was a while ago- why have you waited until now to voice these suspicions? Why couldn't you have mentioned them at the time, or yesterday?

I did mention them yesterday. I didn’t on day 2 because I thought Pepper was scum.

I started to have my doubts about you in Post 1052 and said I’d look at your post history. And then I came back with suspicions on you in Post 1119.

The difference between you and I here is that people only had vibes on you when I started to see it too and I believe I’m the first to bring up your day 2 play as reasoning for my vote. Whereas people had already taken sides between Dingo and Pepper and you were calling misunderstanding on the early debate while ignoring the later debate until Pepper was at L-3 and MIA for two weeks and you just caught on to 3 week old suspicions.

[Jahudo]

In posts 872 and 878 you still maintained that pepper and dingo looked like misunderstanding townies. At those times had you read posts 782, 787, and/or 813?

I didn’t get the feeling that you had caught up to post 813 until you posted 888. Is this true? If so, why didn’t you say your read was incomplete in posts 872 and 878?

I think I found the post you were talking about Mike. Did you want an answer to all parts of it? Why did you think these were important questions that required a satisfactory answer from Pepper to keep your vote off him?

Why didn’t you initially understand that post 813 wasn’t about questions Pepper was going to answer, but questions he should have answered earlier? Why didn’t you say anything in your first post after 813?

Oh, one more thing since I just saw dingo most recent post. How does this

@Pepper - If I compiled a list of questions that have been posted to you that you have chosen not to answer, would that increase the likelyhood you would respond to them?

become this

If you want to answer the questions you have ignored, go ahead and answer them. But there is no way I am going to spend an hour re-reading the conversation and collecting quotes only to have to ignore or misrepresent them so you can get me posting the questions back at you over and over again to try and show you are not dealing with them honestly.

dingo's still being pretty hostile in my opinion. One of us should be lynched today between dingo and Dr Pepper. I think it should be dingo.

I thought better of it and decided there was no way you had any intention of answering my questions. I mean, you read me mocking you after I ask you questions because I predict you won't answer them. And you don't. But then you ask me to post them again? If you had any intention of answering them, why don't you just answer them? Do you not know how to go back to posts you have read before? And if you can't remember what happened in previous posts, how can you possibly scum hunt?

And maybe you can explain how you interpret this

I'm not asking him to change his vote.

to this

dingo is trying to get a vote changed without providing a solid reason.

Not that I expect you to even try to explain. You are so tied up in your web of lies that you can't answer even the most basic questions put to you.

Look familiar?

Back then and now I agree that Pepper looked scummy and he had been avoiding questions like the one at the bottom (how you interpret this ______ to this _______). I’ll give you that he should have answered that question prior to post 813 since it had been posed before. I’ll give you that before 813 he was ignoring questions.

So I understand how you could have come to your stance late in the day, but since your work isn’t there I am wondering if you really believed it and when you started to believe it.

[MikeSC6]

That is part of the reason why I don’t like it. You changed your mind about him without showing the process of you changing your mind. I think that was necessary because it involved debates you initially ignored. By not giving an initial response you were active lurking until you could come up on the side that had already won.

This post precedes post 888 by two days-

By "the rest" I meant Dingo and Percy- well just Dingo really. There were times when he misunderstood Percy's position, just like Dr Pepper did of him. It's certainly possible that either one intentionally did so- I don't know how you guys have decided that Dr Peppers was intentional, and Dingos an honest mistake.

It's not explicit, and I wasn't at the point of deciding that Dr Pepper was in the wrong and dingo in the right, but you can see here that I was entertaining the idea that one or the other was intentionally misrepresenting the other. Two further days without a post from Dr Pepper, his lurking made more obvious by the lack of posts from the rest of us during that time period, and I was willing to concede that Dr Pepper was the more scummy in that situation, though tentatively because I wanted him to answer the questions more than wanting to lynch him for not answering questions.

Particularly dingo's post 886 made me re-evaluate the situation-

True. But it had not dried up when Pepper vanished ten days ago. We were in the middle of a discussion. He asked me for questions I felt he had not answered. I gave him one. He disappeared.

Couched in those terms, I felt it made sense that Dr Pepper's dissapearance served a scummy purpose, but still I'd much rather have had him answer these questions before we lynched so I didn't vote.

But they weren’t questions that had been left unanswered for 2 weeks. It was more like 3 weeks and in that time you never gave a heads up that Pepper was holding out until the group had already decided to lynch him over it.

They had slipped my mind, three weeks is a long time to remember specific questions asked by other people, until dingo's post bringing them up just previously to mine.

It doesn’t matter whether you voted or not because I’m looking for momentum on the wagon and you clearly added to it without providing anything new or establishing what in particular you liked about the old reasons. That is opportunistic IMO.

I added pressure to a lurker, without bumping up the number of votes to a dangerous level where he may not have been able to get a post in. He lurked for weeks, and I commented on that- it's easy with hindsight to see that as adding to a townie-wagon, at the time I saw it as commenting on scummy behaviour without particular thought to how it would make me look if Dr Pepper did end up town.

In posts 872 and 878 you still maintained that pepper and dingo looked like misunderstanding townies. At those times had you read posts 782, 787, and/or 813?

I didn’t get the feeling that you had caught up to post 813 until you posted 888. Is this true? If so, why didn’t you say your read was incomplete in posts 872 and 878?

I think I found the post you were talking about Mike. Did you want an answer to all parts of it? Why did you think these were important questions that required a satisfactory answer from Pepper to keep your vote off him?

Why didn’t you initially understand that post 813 wasn’t about questions Pepper was going to answer, but questions he should have answered earlier? Why didn’t you say anything in your first post after 813?

I had read it all the way through, but I had no reason to suspect that Dr Pepper would go on an extended lurk at that time, and no reason to suspect that he was avoiding questions because he hadn't answered them immediately. After dingo's first request for him to address the questions he had missed I didn't comment immediately because there was no reason to think it would turn into a big thing, I expected he'd post in a day or two answering what he'd missed and an extra prompt wouldn't be necessary- individual questions in such long, heated discussions can be easy to oversee. When it became clear that these questions weren't going to get answered, that's when it became an issue for me.

And it's true, you did say yesterday you were suspicious- I thought those posts were from Juls in the last post. I can't defend the idea that you've only brought this up because of The Replacement's suspicions, so

Unvote

.

[zwetschenwasser]

Uh... this looks a lot like the Dingo/Pepper debate...

[dramonic]

is there a pretty certain amount of werewolves or do we not know that?

[Yosarian2]

Personally, I've had kind of a bad gut feeling about Mike for a while now.

Vote:MikeSC6

[dramonic]

But i like his avi...

jk, I'll reread his stuff ^^

[zwetschenwasser]

I don't like Mike's voting shenanigan.s

[Gorrad]

Dramonic, one question: How could asking what power roles are left help the town in any way, shape, or form?

Bump for Dramonic to answer.

[dramonic]

Because knowing what is left is good for optimal use of said roles.

In the RL game anyway <<

[Shanba]

[18:28] dizzyizzyb13: Shanba. Could you please do me a favor and let people in the games I'm in on MS know that my comp is fried and I don't know when I'll be back, but it'll hopefully be soonish?