Mini 793: Scrubs mafia- GAME OVER

[hp [leaves]]

On the other hand, I am interested by hp's ultimatum. Discouraging discussion is not a good thing - and you effectively pressured those who didn't find inHim as scummy as yourself to not post in his defence. Even as a "final thought for the day" sort of thing.

Re-reading is now required, back later.

No-lynch hurts town. I posted that on the final day, where we would have to lynch inHim or have a no lynch. Which would you prefer?

[Furry]

On the other hand, I am interested by hp's ultimatum. Discouraging discussion is not a good thing - and you effectively pressured those who didn't find inHim as scummy as yourself to not post in his defence. Even as a "final thought for the day" sort of thing.

Re-reading is now required, back later.

No-lynch hurts town. I posted that on the final day, where we would have to lynch inHim or have a no lynch. Which would you prefer?

I would of prefered a no lynch all the way. If I could of posted before the hammer, I would not of voted inhim. Seriously, if you could not tell that from the way that wagon progressed, that he was not town, go back and look at how town gets lynched in other games, and how scum gets lynched.

That type of wagon was on town 100%. It was a deadline driven on a point primarily established in the RVS, there was no significant competing wagon, there was (only one) player apart from the lynchee who disagreed with it, it gained most steam at a deadline announced FAR IN ADVANCE. The only thing that would of made inhim more town is if he claim VT.

[veerus]

Furry, if you take out hindsight from your thought process, you would see that you're wrong. Did you KNOW that he was town? Most of us didn't. And while I'm not a theory buff, everything I've read around here states that a lynch, any lynch, is better than a no lynch.

[Furry]

Furry, if you take out hindsight from your thought process, you would see that you're wrong. Did you KNOW that he was town? Most of us didn't. And while I'm not a theory buff, everything I've read around here states that a lynch, any lynch, is better than a no lynch.

Are you looking for some arbitrary number of how sure I was on this read? Also hindsight? Not sure what part of the thought process yesterday showed that I didnt think he was town just about ever. I was very very sure that inhim was town. We had a successful wagon with about four people not even POSTING, that basically means everyone was on the wagon, if inhim was scum, it would of needed to be with the guy who got replaced/BMQ/veerus.

If I think someone is town though, I am going to defend them to the end. Admittedly I thought slicey would flip scum which is another reason I prefered no lynch, but I would rather have a no lynch then a lynch on my strongest town read.

Vote Tzee

Biggest thing is that vote for Inhim. Take a look at the final LoS we saw.

Anyone below this post who doesn't have his vote on inHim and doesn't hammer will be lynched tomorrow.

Threatening people for having a different opinion to you, and saying so, is not good.

Already he sees that hp is trying to bully votes onto inhim.

But the deadline is looming, and we don't want a no-lynch. inHim is not at the top of my scumdar at the moment (I find Slicey more scummy even now), but he's still a much better lynch than none at all, and on the brief readthrough I've made he's a perfectly reasonable choice.

Ok, this is what makes no sense. Slicey is more scummy then inhim. The two top wagons are slicey and inhim. However a lynch of a second (or maybe even lower) choice is taken. If he really thought that slicey was scum, it should mean that inhim is NOT scum. So he backs the wagon on someone that he should logically think is town, in order to get a lynch.

And the claim certainly doesn't help.

*facepalm* ok seriously people. Just about every role can work as any alignment given how the game is balanced. Give me any role and I bet I can throw together a somewhat balanced mini in about ten minutes. If this is about role name thats even more annoying. Any good mod will give scum fakeclaims, or they will all be roles that are townie sounding. Name/Role claims should be taken on if they fit flavor if you are going to attempt to bust on it. If inhim claimed doctor, then yeah, thats flavorfail. RB is not.

[Brandi]

Actually, the inhim wagon was incredibly strong, and was definitely the best lead we had. If anything, he was incredibly anti-town and was playing terribly, and only led the town further away from scum. While I did support his lynch believing that he was scum, I'd say the town is better off without him regardless. His role, given his terrible play and terrible mindset, would have also proven to be very detrimental. He probably would have ended up role blocking the likes of a doctor. Slicey was definitely more obviously town, and I definitely suspect it to be the work of a vig. I'm sure this game is filled with power roles, and I would suggest that said power roles think a bit more with their head from now on, as they were obviously way off the mark in this instance. DDD, I am a bit more surprised with. I was actually a bit skeptical of him before the end of the day, and had planned to look into him more this day, because he gave me a bad feeling.

[Brandi]

"I'm sure this game is filled with power roles, and I would suggest that said power roles think a bit more with their head from now"

Actually, nevermind that second statement, that's a bit ignorant of me to say. Despite me believing slicey to have been more townie than scum, I think he was still a decent vig choice, he did do some pretty scummy things that I suppose I was just failing to acknowledge in the past. Just hopefully, we'll be *lucky* and hit a SCUMMY player that is actually SCUM.

[Brandi]

On the other hand, I am interested by hp's ultimatum. Discouraging discussion is not a good thing - and you effectively pressured those who didn't find inHim as scummy as yourself to not post in his defence. Even as a "final thought for the day" sort of thing.

Re-reading is now required, back later.

No-lynch hurts town. I posted that on the final day, where we would have to lynch inHim or have a no lynch. Which would you prefer?

I would of prefered a no lynch all the way.

vote: Furry

Scumdar goes:

DING DING DING DING DING!

[Gorrad]

Furry's really not looking good, but for now I'm going to

Vote: Fishythefish

.

I'm trying a new tell here, not sure it will work.

[Brandi]

Gorrad, what are your thoughts on N1?

[Gorrad]

Um....I don't really have any? Why? It doesn't really seem important to me. Does it seem important to you?

[Brandi]

It's just nice to have input on such matters. Speculations as to why someone was NKed, or reactions to the deaths of others. Some may be surprised, some may have expected something to happen. Personally, I honestly don't know why scum would target DDD, he didn't particularly give off the feel of a power role- and he wasn't particularly a strong voice for the town. It almost seems as if it were a completely random choice. Anyway, If all you feel is "meh" then that is an adequate response as well.

[Gorrad]

It's just nice to have input on such matters. Speculations as to why someone was NKed, or reactions to the deaths of others. Some may be surprised, some may have expected something to happen. Personally, I honestly don't know why scum would target DDD, he didn't particularly give off the feel of a power role- and he wasn't particularly a strong voice for the town. It almost seems as if it were a completely random choice. Anyway, If all you feel is "meh" then that is an adequate response as well.

Unvote, Vote: Brandi

Gotcha.

[Fishythefish]

Meh. To strengthen Gorrad's scumtell a bit more (it doesn't work though), my reread wasn't all that helpful. The inHim wagon was pretty strong. As I pointed out in my response to Brandi's enormous wall, I don't like quite a few of Brandi's points on him- but I think this points more to tunnelling/confirmation bias than anything else. Of all the people on the wagon, Gorrad looks worst in terms of the way he moved his vote.

Good post, Brandi!

Inhim, make a bloody good response or I'm going to vote for you.

This post is simply paving the way for a vote on inHim. I can't believe Gorrad- or anyone else- thought Brandi's wall of text was totally sound. This is just an excuse for Gorrad to join the inHim wagon later without proper justification.

vote: Gorrad

[Tzeentch]

Anyone below this post who doesn't have his vote on inHim and doesn't hammer will be lynched tomorrow.

Threatening people for having a different opinion to you, and saying so, is not good.

Already he sees that hp is trying to bully votes onto inhim.

But the deadline is looming, and we don't want a no-lynch. inHim is not at the top of my scumdar at the moment (I find Slicey more scummy even now), but he's still a much better lynch than none at all, and on the brief readthrough I've made he's a perfectly reasonable choice.

Ok, this is what makes no sense. Slicey is more scummy then inhim. The two top wagons are slicey and inhim. However a lynch of a second (or maybe even lower) choice is taken. If he really thought that slicey was scum, it should mean that inhim is NOT scum. So he backs the wagon on someone that he should logically think is town, in order to get a lynch.

*cough*

Please don't assume I've been thinking illogically, mmmkay?

Firstly, believing Slicey was scum (putting aside for now that I actually thought he was

probably

scum) does NOT imply belief that inHim was town. Even putting aside the possibility of bussing, there's still a multi-scum-group possibility to be considered here. Not that I necessarily think there ARE multiple scum groups, but what you posited was a false dilemma, which is something of a pet peeve of mine.

Secondly, while I did believe Slicey was a bad guy, I wasn't 100%. So really, it was more "Back the 50-60% scummy lynch we will actually get over the 60-70% scummy lynch we won't" - and I'm sure you can see why that is far less of a questionable decision.

And the claim certainly doesn't help.

*facepalm* ok seriously people. Just about every role can work as any alignment given how the game is balanced. Give me any role and I bet I can throw together a somewhat balanced mini in about ten minutes. If this is about role name thats even more annoying. Any good mod will give scum fakeclaims, or they will all be roles that are townie sounding. Name/Role claims should be taken on if they fit flavor if you are going to attempt to bust on it. If inhim claimed doctor, then yeah, thats flavorfail. RB is not.

And finally, putting my words into my mouth. I'm perfectly aware that flavour and mechanics are rarely linked that strongly (in fact, I've made note of your seeding of potential doubts for the future), and it's interesting you didn't ask

why

I thought the claim didn't help.

One of the most common power roles to give scum is roleblocker. In addition, the only way to test the power involves a pro-town power role losing their role for a night, then willingly stepping forward to state this. What's more, the only way to reliably test involves a power role stepping forward BEFORE being blocked - making them an obvious target.

In other words, it's one of the most reliable scum claims there is - it's a power role, but one which is both near-impossible to test without giving the scum information and one which is very likely to go to the scum.

It was the fact that he claimed roleblocker that tipped it over the edge for me. Not the fact that he claimed that Jordan was a roleblocker.

Also, it's interesting what you seem to be implying here:

Just about every role can work as any alignment given how the game is balanced... If this is about role name thats even more annoying.

The first part says that any role can work as any alignment. Initially I read that as "Any character can work as any alignment", but the next bit - where you say it's worse if it's about the role name - seems to imply that the first bit was talking about the ability itself.

Please let me know if I'm misinterpreting this bit, but does that mean that you think we shouldn't take a person's claimed role into account when deciding whether or not to lynch them?

..

On the other hand, I am interested by hp's ultimatum. Discouraging discussion is not a good thing - and you effectively pressured those who didn't find inHim as scummy as yourself to not post in his defence. Even as a "final thought for the day" sort of thing.

Re-reading is now required, back later.

No-lynch hurts town. I posted that on the final day, where we would have to lynch inHim or have a no lynch. Which would you prefer?

I would prefer for everyone to be able to contribute as they normally would without being threatened for it. What if someone wanted to step forward and corroborate inHim's claim somehow (I don't know how, but it's always possible) - your statement could have held them back, then someone else might have made the lynch based on incomplete information.

I just think that it's never a good thing to try and restrict discussion.

[Brandi]

Meh. To strengthen Gorrad's scumtell a bit more (it doesn't work though), my reread wasn't all that helpful. The inHim wagon was pretty strong. As I pointed out in my response to Brandi's enormous wall, I don't like quite a few of Brandi's points on him- but I think this points more to tunnelling/confirmation bias than anything else. Of all the people on the wagon, Gorrad looks worst in terms of the way he moved his vote.

Good post, Brandi!

Inhim, make a bloody good response or I'm going to vote for you.

This post is simply paving the way for a vote on inHim. I can't believe Gorrad- or anyone else- thought Brandi's wall of text was totally sound. This is just an excuse for Gorrad to join the inHim wagon later without proper justification.

vote: Gorrad

Fishy- Just because inhim ended up being town does NOT mean that that incredibly long post I made was based on TUNNELVISIONING. [I also made a point earlier Day 1 that if anyone could present a BETTER case on someone else, I'd follow it instead. But obviously that didn't happen and couldn't because no one WAS as scummy as inhim.] I had a VALID case on him. You [anyone in general] act like scum, you get LYNCHED, it doesn't mean that the people making the cases on you are WRONG for doing so. Just because someone is a townie- doesn't get them the right to think "Oh because I KNOW I'm town- I can do whatever the hell I want and feel justified, even if it goes against EVERYTHING a townie is supposed to stand for!"

It doesn't work that way. Inhim was definitely an outstandingly scummy player who DESERVED to be lynched.

Also Gorrad - it's a little late for "random votes" ;P

[hp [leaves]]

If I think someone is town though, I am going to defend them to the end. Admittedly I thought slicey would flip scum which is another reason I prefered no lynch, but I would rather have a no lynch then a lynch on

my strongest town read

.

Where did you state this? You're getting scummier and scummier if you fail to respond.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy- Just because inhim ended up being town does NOT mean that that incredibly long post I made was based on TUNNELVISIONING. [I also made a point earlier Day 1 that if anyone could present a BETTER case on someone else, I'd follow it instead. But obviously that didn't happen and couldn't because no one WAS as scummy as inhim.] I had a VALID case on him. You [anyone in general] act like scum, you get LYNCHED, it doesn't mean that the people making the cases on you are WRONG for doing so. Just because someone is a townie- doesn't get them the right to think "Oh because I KNOW I'm town- I can do whatever the hell I want and feel justified, even if it goes against EVERYTHING a townie is supposed to stand for!"

It doesn't work that way. Inhim was definitely an outstandingly scummy player who DESERVED to be lynched.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that inHim was not scummy, nor that he shouldn't have been lynched, nor that you had no case on him. I am saying- as I did at the time- that aspects of your case were wrong; in some cases, completely wrong. I made a detailed response to your huge post, in which I said which of your points I thought were right (and there were enough of them I voted inHim)- and I haven't had any reason to change that.

[Gorrad]

Look, there's precisely one reason for you to find out reactions to night actions. Rolefishing. By asking people how they feel about the night actions, seeing who's surprised, etc., you are trying to out the doc.

And I caught you.

Brandi's scum, y'all. I've seen this case before.

[Brandi]

Definitely not role fishing in the least. Scum and town react differently to deaths. I'm more so looking for pro-town vs. anti-town reactions, I'm not even sure how its possible to even remotely GUESS a power role from someone's reaction to a NK. Nice red herring though.

[Gorrad]

Vanillas don't have a hand in night actions. Power roles do. If there's a power role that may have effected the night kills somehow (Doc, RB, JK, etc.), they're more likely to react.

[Brandi]

I disagree entirely. What you're implying doesn't make any sense at all. Just because you don't have a HAND in the night actions, doesn't mean you can't have opinions on them. Opinions and ideas help progress discussion, and discussion is always good for the town. Just beacuse you're giving your opinion doesn't mean you have to say "Oh BY THE WAY MY ROLE IS ________" It's completely irrelevant.

[Furry]

If I think someone is town though, I am going to defend them to the end. Admittedly I thought slicey would flip scum which is another reason I prefered no lynch, but I would rather have a no lynch then a lynch on

my strongest town read

.

Where did you state this? You're getting scummier and scummier if you fail to respond.

First of all hun, no threats. That has a pretty nice potential of getting a backlash from me thats not going to be pleasant.

But seriously? What posts of mine yesterday did not suggest that inhim was my strongest town read? Would you rather of me said "Inhim is a very bad wagon to persue and is my strongest town read" repetedly?

[Gorrad]

I disagree entirely. What you're implying doesn't make any sense at all. Just because you don't have a HAND in the night actions, doesn't mean you can't have opinions on them. Opinions and ideas help progress discussion, and discussion is always good for the town. Just beacuse you're giving your opinion doesn't mean you have to say "Oh BY THE WAY MY ROLE IS ________" It's completely irrelevant.

The more we talk about night actions, the more likely it is that a power role, meaning to or not, lets their role slip.

[Brandi]

But the point isn't to talk about night "ACTIONS" - the point is to talk about feelings/opinions on WHO died, if you had previously felt they were scummy, are surprised as to what they flipped, etc.

[Brandi]

If I think someone is town though, I am going to defend them to the end. Admittedly I thought slicey would flip scum which is another reason I prefered no lynch, but I would rather have a no lynch then a lynch on

my strongest town read

.

Where did you state this? You're getting scummier and scummier if you fail to respond.

First of all hun, no

threats

. That has a pretty nice potential of getting a backlash from me thats

not going to be pleasant

.

Irrelevant to point out maybe, but man what Irony!