The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[Gorrad]

Because knowing what is left is good for optimal use of said roles.

In the RL game anyway <<

You want to direct power roles with this many alive oO?

Nope. Not buying it.

[dramonic]

14 isnt that much.

[Jahudo]

@Mod: You still have Shinnen_no_Me in your Opening Post, but she was replaced by replacement

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@MikeSC

It's not explicit, and I wasn't at the point of deciding that Dr Pepper was in the wrong and dingo in the right, but you can see here that I was entertaining the idea that one or the other was intentionally misrepresenting the other. Two further days without a post from Dr Pepper, his lurking made more obvious by the lack of posts from the rest of us during that time period, and I was willing to concede that Dr Pepper was the more scummy in that situation, though tentatively because I wanted him to answer the questions more than wanting to lynch him for not answering questions.

Did you consider that Pepper's ad hom attacks (post 787) and defense that dingo was being hostile (post 811) could have at least partially explained why he wasn't posting?

He hadn't been posting in any other games, which make it harder to conclude that he was intentionally lurking. The mod wasn't around to give a prod until it was too late, which also makes it harder to think he was consciously avoiding the game when he might have posted if he had been prodded. So what in particular made it seem that he was avoiding the game to avoid the questions?

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@Zwets:

Uh... this looks a lot like the Dingo/Pepper debate...

Do you mean that the people are arguing like dingo and pepper, or they’re arguing about dingo and pepper?
Do you think Mike’s “shenanigan” as you called it is a tell?

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@Dramonic:

is there a pretty certain amount of werewolves or do we not know that?

I guess we can only speculate at this point based on other large games we've played. Is it important to talk about today?

I don’t understand what dramonic is hoping to achieve by talking about the power roles. PR’s should not be directed when they should be hiding their identity from scummy manipulation scum and using their powers as they see fit.

Also I think dramonic should be more pro-active and tell us who he thinks is scum.

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I’m trying to find useful stuff from Yosarian/Replacement debate over the justification of a mufasa lynch but I don’t see how it’s being used to help find new scum. IMO, town had valid reasons to vote him and scum probably did too. It’s wasn’t hard to jump on the point that Mufasa was revealing too much about his role when he shouldn’t have, and that what he did reveal didn’t sound like a very legit claim. So how do we separate scum from town votes when the easiest reason to vote him was a good reason to vote him?

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@Rockatansky

Plus, one of my top scum candidates is on that wagon. I'll get back to him or her later. Right now, I'm going to re-read Percy and see if I can find anything interesting.

Who is this scum candidate? Have you re-read Percy?

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@Starbuck: Have you finished reading the thread? What do you think about how the dramonic wagon developed? Was it too fast, easy, or believable if he’s scum?

[MikeSC6]

Did you consider that Pepper's ad hom attacks (post 787) and defense that dingo was being hostile (post 811) could have at least partially explained why he wasn't posting?

He hadn't been posting in any other games, which make it harder to conclude that he was intentionally lurking. The mod wasn't around to give a prod until it was too late, which also makes it harder to think he was consciously avoiding the game when he might have posted if he had been prodded. So what in particular made it seem that he was avoiding the game to avoid the questions?

Dr Pepper did say when he got back that he had quit the game, I imagine because he was just fed up with it, but still- he didn't say anything like that until the very end of the day when he hammered himself. It was a complete disappearance after heavy activity with no heads-up, he could have left the game after being unable to justify his posts.

Whatever the reason was, leaving without warning in the middle of a huge discussion isn't a pro-town way to play. I would have been happier if he'd have come back and continued the discussion until it was sorted, I was happy taking the stance that his disappearance was suspicious because I also wanted to give him the chance to post and refute it before him getting lynched.

[NabakovNabakov]

Ok, so I went back and re-read most of the relevant bits to today's discussion. Here's a study-guide for anybody who's interested.

In 745, 783, 793, 794, and 802 Mike is limping through the textwalls that characterized pages 31-33. Most of what he says in these posts is consonant with 808 where he provides a detailed summary/analysis... to post 641 (over 150 posts behind the thread), ending it with this:

It just seems like a misunderstanding so far. Looking at the last few posts on this page, this where things break down. Should I keep posting in this format? Does anyone else want to take over and give their interpretation? Does anyone think I've misinterpreted their position so far?

Thus writing off 6 pages of play with a single sentence: "this is where things break down."

There is a brief Mufasa-based interlude (largely based on Mike's push in that direction) in which he (fake)softclaims and is let off the hook. Jahudo (861), Kaiverian (now Starbuck)(869), and Zwet (871) all vote Pepper in relatively short order, and Mike asks what the deal is. Jahudo (874) and Kaiverian (883) direct Mike to portions of the DingoPepper debate after the portion he analyzed, mainly focused on the accusation that Pepper misrepresented Dingo's postion as wanting Percy's vote to change rather than just be changable. Mike (presumably) reads these posts (again?) and posts 888:

I wonder what this wait is doing to the people who can't post. I'm thinking of voting Dr Pepper, the posts Kaiveran posted do seem quite scummy.

If we don't get a satisfactory answer for the question you still have outstanding (I think it's the one near the bottom of page 33? That was a while ago...) I think I'll be voting. I hadn't had him pegged as scum previously, though- I can't really say why but I'd got the impression he was quite levelheaded and townie.

Unvote

Jahudo is correct to point out that he pushes the Pepper wagon without voting, though in 899 and 913 he indicates that he is waiting for Pepper respond to Dingo's accusations and the post-MufasaInterlude pressure. A few posts later, Pepper self-hammers.

Some Comments:
-Throughout this entire affair, from 745 to 913, I'm never quite certain that Mike has actually read/comprehended/considered the entire DingoPepper debate. For the first few posts, he is explicit about it. In 808, he dismisses the meat of the argument, recognizing the fact that their animosity was based on a misunderstanding but failing to realize that both felt they were being

intentionally

misunderstood. Following the MufasaInterlude, what sparse evidence he does have for Pepper's scumminess focused (and continues to focus) on Pepper's not answering the question Dingo posed in 813. However, anyone following the debate up to that point (

especially

someone re-reading it) would have recognized that by 813, that question was not just redundant (this was at least the fifth time it was being asked; hell, in 813, it was actually quoted from an earlier post), but ironic in light of 809. After the first few times, it was clear Dingo meant the question rhetorically, as in "You can't explain why this isn't a misrepresentation because you're scum." Therefore, citing Pepper's main sin as avoiding a question directed at him is perhaps correct, but this is really just the symptom of a disease that should have been easily recognizable, his misrepresentation of Dingo's position. Therefore, treating Pepper like he was lurking and avoiding prodding questions (when he really flamed out under an assault of accusing questions) is nonsensical. What exactly did Mike expect Pepper to accomplish if he returned (and didn't self-hammer)?

-Regardless of whether or not he actually read the DingoPepper debate, Mike provided a pitifully scarce amount of information on how he viewed it during D2. For the entire debate following 641, we have only two or three sentences of commentary/analysis from Mike, most of which featured prominently in my study-guide. Jahudo is also right to point out that Mike's conversion to suspecting Pepper is sparsely documented. While he does not simply follow along with the case Zwet/Jahudo/Kaiverian cite to him on 35-6 (that Pepper misrepresented Dingo), he also posts no original analysis and provides a case (the unanswered questions approach) that fails to hold water.

-As I see it, Mike had not spent any considerable amount of time with the DingoPepper debate until after the MufasaInterlude (mainly because he had been pushing for the focus to move to Mufasa throughout the substance of the debate). Only after it was decided to postpone Mufasa's lynch did Mike go back and actually consider the debate, and then only hastily. I think this explains (but does not pardon) the massive discrepancies between initial (808) and later (888) analyses.

-It should be noted that Mike began suspecting Pepper only a short time before he was lynched by an unforseeable combination of Mufasa's obliviousness and Pepper's spiteful suicide, and during that time he wanted to bring Pepper back into the discussion for questioning, perhaps indicating that the missing analysis could have come later had the day not been cut short. However, this is mixed (as Jahudo noticed) with an unwarranted strength of suspicion in 913.

-In conclusion, Mike came extremely late and sloppy to DingoPepper, and the last post he made on the subject (913) seems to indicate that he would have remained sloppy desipite the potential for genuine analysis. Sloppy can equal scummy, but I don't want to stand a verdict on this slice of Mike's posting. I should have plenty of free time this weekend to look hard at what Mike looked hard at D2/3, Mufasa.

[Battle Mage]

Because knowing what is left is good for optimal use of said roles.

In the RL game anyway <<

Unvote, vote: Zwet

no sense in allowing him to cruise. I thought we'd dealt with this a while back, tbh?

BM

[Gorrad]

Because knowing what is left is good for optimal use of said roles.

In the RL game anyway <<

Unvote, vote: Zwet

no sense in allowing him to cruise. I thought we'd dealt with this a while back, tbh?

BM

I fail to see how the quote relates to the body.

[dramonic]

maybe it's sposed to have provoked his unvote <<

[Jahudo]

@BM: Have you played with Zwet before?

@Zwet: why so quiet?

[zwetschenwasser]

Sorry, RL has been a pain. I meant that they were arguing much like Dingo and Pepper were, but I do think that the voting jumpiness is a scumtell.

[MikeSC6]

It is true that I skipped over the most heated bit of the argument with my posts- but that was because the battle lines had been clearly drawn very early in that discussion. Nothing new of substance came up, I mean posting styles changed to be more aggressive on both sides, sure, but there's not much to be said about that. There would have been no use in continuing to do a post by post that would consist of nothing more than "aggression and the same argument we heard earlier..."

And yes, while the discussion was ongoing I didn't post as much as I could have- but wouldn't it have been better to wait for the discussion to wind down by it's self and then comment on it once it's been as finished as it's going to get? When you have two people going at each other, accusing each other to be scum, I think it's better to let them duke it out in a bubble of their own and evaluate it afterwards, rather than jumping in to support one person mid-discussion or inverfering by providing them with prompts they can use.

But we never got to the point where the discussion was over and we could look at it objectively while those who participated were alive due to Dr Peppers self-lynch.

[Ztife]

Vote:dramonic

For wanting to see power roles. =)

[zwetschenwasser]

Why is this game stalling...

[Jahudo]

Why aren't you voting anyone zwets? Or are you waiting to place another hammer?

[zwetschenwasser]

How did you guess?

[Jahudo]

Mod: Can we have a vote count and prods on any inactives?

[Yosarian2]

Why is this game stalling...

Because the scum don't want to bus their buddy MikeSC6, probably.

[dramonic]

proll...

I'm torn between voting Mike and Yos

[zwetschenwasser]

HOW THE HECK IS YOS SCUMMY?

[Jahudo]

Why is this game stalling...

Because the scum don't want to bus their buddy MikeSC6, probably.

Care to challenge any points in the Mike case or rather bring up anything new?

[MikeSC6]

Why is this game stalling...

Because the scum don't want to bus their buddy MikeSC6, probably.

How can that comment have helped anyone? If you honestly think I'm scum, why would you want to make a comment that dissuades people from voting for me by pre-emptively branding them scum?

If anyone has any new questions, questions I've missed or questions that you don't feel I've answered as I should, feel free to post them up- if only to get the game moving again. I'll just add that Mufasa coming up town has completely thrown it for me, if Mufasa had have come up scum my day 2 actions wouldn't seem scummy- but he was town and what I thought at the time was good town play doesn't seem so now. Did we decide how to manage this second vote?

[zwetschenwasser]

It's quite clear that Yos is probably one of the most pro-town people in this game.

[Gorrad]

It's quite clear that Yos is probably one of the most pro-town people in this game.

It's posts like this that make me love being in every game with Zwet's awe-inspiring scumhunting. How could ANYONE go against this maelstrom of logic?

[Yosarian2]

Why is this game stalling...

Because the scum don't want to bus their buddy MikeSC6, probably.

How can that comment have helped anyone? If you honestly think I'm scum, why would you want to make a comment that dissuades people from voting for me by pre-emptively branding them scum?

No, actually, I said the scum aren't bussing you, wich is the opposite of saying that people who vote you are scum.

The comment helped by hopefully making whatever scumbuddies you have that aren't currently voting you a little more nervous and twitchy.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I'm sending out prods now.

My browser is acting up and the text formatting is all screwy, but I'll get a vote count as soon as it starts acting nice.