Good Omens Mafia! Game Over.

[Locus Cosecant]

Well, by all means, lynch me for trusting the cop.

[Seol]

I hadn't got as far ahead as this, but are you suggesting we nominate a target for you in the thread?

Well, I was going off the post above mine (Aelyn's), and this is also the usual way things are done in such situations.

It is? I've never been in a "verify vigilante" situation before, and had assumed we'd just let you do your own thing without having your target made public. Yes, there are problems with that approach too (I don't like that one that much either) but I'd assumed that was our default starting point.

There are other ways to go about it. The town could nominate several, and I pick one off the list. Or I just pick someone myself.

My issue wasn't so much how the target is chosen, but rather that it would be public knowledge (as this gives the scum a number of ways to prevent it happening). However, both of these options you proposed eliminate the possibility that you'll choose someone in your group if you

are

scum, which is why I reckon it's better if we don't give you too much choice in the matter quite yet.

There's a number of problems with that - the possibility of double-kills (as, depending on the mod, you don't always see both kill methods, meaning that it might not confirm you)

For the first, this is much more likely if my target isn't known in advance, actually. If my target is known, it's would be quite foolish of the scum to target them as well. Why would they waste a kill on someone who would die anyway just to keep me from showing my kill?

Were they to do this, they'd effectively be trading their nightkill for guaranteeing that you'll be the next day's lynch. It's certainly arguable that's a worthwhile trade.

the issue of protection (as it's not unheard of for scum groups to contain doctors),

For the second, no, it's not unheard of. Consider though that scum are only likely to protect fellow scum, and so the target is likely to be under considerable suspicion anyway (they could protect someone not in their group, but again, to what purpose? Better to use their protection on someone in their group, as there are other kills out there, and putting suspicion on someone who is going to be killed anyway seems rather pointless).

Assuming that you're telling the truth, you attempt to nightkill that person and fail. We wake up and see no kill, so we lynch you. Effectively, it's trading a night's protection (that, if used on their fellow scum, is unlikely to make any difference to anything anyway) for a guaranteed lynch the following day. I think that's

definitely

a worthwhile trade.

Plus, if the target's a member of a scum group with a protector, they'll know to protect them.

More importantly, what you're missing on both of these points is that any problems that could happen are not risks to the town, they're risks to me!

They're risks to the chance of success of the verification plan, and consequently to you. If you

are

innocent, I'd like the plan to give you the best possible chance of demonstrating it.

the possibility of choosing a more powerful town role and outing them

For the third, I think you're thinking about this the wrong way. This sort of thing is essentially a way for the town to get an extra lynch. What you're basically saying is that rather than discuss and find two lynch candidates today (lynching one and me killing the other), plus still having me as an option based on what happens tonight, you think we should give up those two chances and just lynch me now instead

Well, again this depends on the manner in which your target is chosen, but I can see where you're coming from - I hadn't looked at the situation in that way.

This line of thinking can quickly lead to the no-lynch/wait-for-the-cop style of play that is boring and generally worse for the town in theme games.

Quite the opposite - my position was

against

excessively convoluted verification schemes, and just to move on. However, I'm coming to the opinion that "things going wrong" (by which I didn't mean any harm was done to the town, but that we end up with a false negative result and lynch you tomorrow anyway) aren't actually going to make much difference compared to just lynching you today, so I'm happy to step back from supporting lynching you for now.

This is interesting though:

I'm willing to be the target for mith's vig-kill. Me being a normal townie, it really isn't a loss to the town.

Wouldn't it be better to at least

try

to vig scum? And if you're a townie, as you claim, wouldn't you think that vigging you is the only way to guarantee

not

to do that? This looks to me like a stone-cold bluff, and an attempt to make yourself look more pro-town.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Locus, trusting the cop would've involved delaying your vote to see what the cop's feedback on Mith's answers to the cop's questions were, not trying to rush the lynch when it was clear that there was something to discuss. There's a huge difference between trusting the cop and providing the pressure to make the accused person answer the queries of the cop and just downright trying to hurry the lynch through before we've had a chance to hear feedback from both the accused and the cop.

[olio]

This is interesting though:

I'm willing to be the target for mith's vig-kill. Me being a normal townie, it really isn't a loss to the town.

Wouldn't it be better to at least

try

to vig scum?

Sure. Any suggestions?

And if you're a townie, as you claim, wouldn't you think that vigging you is the only way to guarantee

not

to do that? This looks to me like a stone-cold bluff, and an attempt to make yourself look more pro-town.

You know the concept "taking one for the town", don't you?

If

we are going to verify mith, I'd prefer we kill a townie and not make a pro-town player with a role to out him-/herself (or even worse: get killed) in the progress.

On the buff part, if I'd were scum why in the world would I want to enter the spotlight all the sudden? And if you really think I'm scum, just let mith deal with me next night and get over with it.

[Seol]

I'm willing to be the target for mith's vig-kill. Me being a normal townie, it really isn't a loss to the town.

Wouldn't it be better to at least

try

to vig scum?

Sure. Any suggestions?

Not yet, I've been to wrapped up in the mith thing recently. I'll review the thread and see what I come up with.

And if you're a townie, as you claim, wouldn't you think that vigging you is the only way to guarantee

not

to do that? This looks to me like a stone-cold bluff, and an attempt to make yourself look more pro-town.

You know the concept "taking one for the town", don't you?

If

we are going to verify mith, I'd prefer we kill a townie and not make a pro-town player with a role to out him-/herself (or even worse: get killed) in the progress.

Of course I do, but I don't think it's appropriate here. mith was right - there's always a risk of outing power-roles, but there's also a chance we'll hit scum, and that's what we've got to go for. Killing a townie to verify a vigilante, who probably won't survive too long anyway, is not a plan I like much - the vig kill is an "extra lynch", and if we're going to be using it we want to try to hit people who we consider the most scummy.

On the buff part, if I'd were scum why in the world would I want to enter the spotlight all the sudden? And if you really think I'm scum, just let mith deal with me next night and get over with it.

Except you're not just "entering the spotlight", you've been under scrutiny today... albeit from mith, but he has some valid points.

Basically, I think you put the iocaine powder in your own goblet, and you're trying to convince us to switch. The reason I'm suspicious is I don't see why you poured yourself a glass of wine in the first place.

Another thing I worry about is maybe you've got a death trigger you're trying to activate, or have a role along the lines of Paranoid Gun Owner - maybe you're trying to set us up.

[mith]

It is? I've never been in a "verify vigilante" situation before, and had assumed we'd just let you do your own thing without having your target made public. Yes, there are problems with that approach too (I don't like that one that much either) but I'd assumed that was our default starting point.

The main benefit to the town in picking the target is that you have a small added chance of catching me if I'm lying, if the target is in a group with me (well, that, or I'd have to kill one of my own for you, and that would be pretty foolish in a big game with more than one killer, if it's even allowed). However, I probably went too far with suggesting it's the "usual" way... it's been at least a year since I've been in a game with a similar situation, things may have changed.

Were they to do this, they'd effectively be trading their nightkill for guaranteeing that you'll be the next day's lynch. It's certainly arguable that's a worthwhile trade.

Well, almost anything is "arguable", but I think it's a losing argument in this case because of the multiple groups. It's easy to say they're trading their night kill as if it's a small thing, but what they're actually trading is a (pretty decent) chance to hit one of the other groups, and what they're guaranteeing is that they have a day off from worrying about being lynched (but also that the other groups have a day off from that as well; if I'm *in* another group, I'll likely get caught out in a lie anyway, and they always have the option of killing me themselves).

Assuming that you're telling the truth, you attempt to nightkill that person and fail. We wake up and see no kill, so we lynch you. Effectively, it's trading a night's protection (that, if used on their fellow scum, is unlikely to make any difference to anything anyway) for a guaranteed lynch the following day. I think that's definitely a worthwhile trade.

Sure, it's "unlikely" that their protection will be necessary... maybe 5-10%? However, there's a pretty decent chance that my target is in another group, so that hurts them, and as above, a guaranteed lynch is not actually that huge a bonus. The only way it helps them is if they're worried about doing something stupid during the day and getting lynched based on that (any new information that points the finger at them could easily be revealed before I'm lynched, so framing me doesn't help them there).

Plus, if the target's a member of a scum group with a protector, they'll know to protect them.

Which is the real risk here, but because I disagree that they would protect my target otherwise, I come to the conclusion that this helps us, as when I'm shown innocent you have someone to look closely at.

I forgot to mention this before, but keep in mind that a scum-doc is not *that* likely in this game. I can't think of any possibilities there, unless Famine starves colds. (That's a joke.)

They're risks to the chance of success of the verification plan, and consequently to you. If you are innocent, I'd like the plan to give you the best possible chance of demonstrating it.

Good. That's why we're discussing things. However, I don't mind a bit more risk in the plan demonstrating my innocence if it's balanced by a gain of information if I fail. We just have to decide what the best balance is.

Wouldn't it be better to at least try to vig scum? And if you're a townie, as you claim, wouldn't you think that vigging you is the only way to guarantee not to do that? This looks to me like a stone-cold bluff, and an attempt to make yourself look more pro-town.

That was my initial thought... he was going pretty hard after me earlier, so it's quite odd that he would offer himself up as a target unless he didn't think he would be taken up on it. It's also not a terribly bad gamble if he's scum to risk me picking him - considering where my vote is, I might've picked him anyway if it was left to me. And "normal townie" would be difficult to prove or (more importantly) disprove.

On the other hand, I don't know whether he's insane enough to try it.

For now, I will

Unvote: olio

, as if we decide he might be bluffing, he can be the target, and the Locus wagon has more momentum. I'll wait about voting though, until we decide who's choosing the target and how.

[mith]

Just noticing that korais hasn't posted in a month (granted, night lasted a lot of that). Any other lurkers?

[Thoth]

From my quick scan the following 4 also have not posted today:
Gaspode
FD
JDTay
KingEnigma (last post was at the start of february)

I know FD has left the site completely.

[Locus Cosecant]

King Enigma has also left the site; I had to replace him in mini-173. Haven't seen JDTay around too much lately either...

[PeaceBringer]

replacements would be in order, clearly.

[Seol]

Ahhh, the good old Good Omens waiting-for-people-to-turn-up phase! My favourite part of the game!

[/sarcasm]

[mith]

I'm not waiting for people to turn up. I'm waiting for people to say something about who they think is suspicious. Too many people not giving their opinions, not enough lynching someone other than me.

[rolandofthewhite]

Vote count?

[olio]

I'm willing to be the target for mith's vig-kill. Me being a normal townie, it really isn't a loss to the town.

Wouldn't it be better to at least

try

to vig scum?

Sure. Any suggestions?

Not yet, I've been to wrapped up in the mith thing recently. I'll review the thread and see what I come up with.

Still waiting... And mith, feel free to chime in with suggestions too. Meanwhile, I'm happy with my vote on Locus.

[mith]

My suggestion is that everyone post someone they're suspicious of and why, rather than sitting around waiting for vote counts and lurkers. While the lurkers are annoying and need to be taken care of, it's not going to be resolved until the mods turn up, so we might as well talk about something constructive until then.

My top three at the moment are: Locus, korais (the stuff from yesterday still) and PeaceBringer (though my feeling about him might be skewed by the fact that he posts very short posts).

Also, anyone that has any suggestions on how my target should be picked, go for it. I've given the three main options as I see them, but if there's any more, or you think we should go one particular way rather than another, we need to hear it.

[Iammars]

I am suspicious of mith and Seol. Mainly all of the recent discussion has been around them, making it seem like its a mafia and a town member fighting agaisnt one another.

[Polotet]

Sorry about the lack of vote counts and proddings/replacings, but I'm in a show that went up this weekend and I've been too busy to look at this, I've been trying to talk to DS to ask him to take care of it. If nothing else, I'll be back to only a normal level of business by Monday or Tuesday, and able to update then, but hopefully DS will be in before then.

[PeaceBringer]

My suggestion is that everyone post someone they're suspicious of and why, rather than sitting around waiting for vote counts and lurkers. While the lurkers are annoying and need to be taken care of, it's not going to be resolved until the mods turn up, so we might as well talk about something constructive until then.

My top three at the moment are: Locus, korais (the stuff from yesterday still) and PeaceBringer (though my feeling about him might be skewed by the fact that he posts very short posts).

Also, anyone that has any suggestions on how my target should be picked, go for it. I've given the three main options as I see them, but if there's any more, or you think we should go one particular way rather than another, we need to hear it.

I don't post lengthy votes, I frequently don't explain votes, it is how I play. I don't find the quote for quote wars all that helpful and a clog of info myself. Right now I am just watchign and reading cause I don't feel good about a vote anywhere at the moment.

[Dragon Slayer]

Sorry, I had midterms this week and Polotet had his show for college.

[Seol]

I'm willing to be the target for mith's vig-kill. Me being a normal townie, it really isn't a loss to the town.

Wouldn't it be better to at least

try

to vig scum?

Sure. Any suggestions?

Not yet, I've been to wrapped up in the mith thing recently. I'll review the thread and see what I come up with.

Still waiting... And mith, feel free to chime in with suggestions too. Meanwhile, I'm happy with my vote on Locus.

And everyone else, this game isn't just between me and mith!

OK, thoughts - in terms of today's activities, I'd agree with the observations so far that rolandofthewhite and Locus were hasty in compounding the votes once it was established there

was

a need for discussion, and I'm suspicious of you for your "vig me!" gambit. However, we still have the likely suspects from yesterday - Gaspode and, from earlier in the day, korais666 (I'm not mentioning Coron as I'm comfortable with his claim, for now) - what have either of them done to justify our moving on from them? Why are they so quiet today?

Right now I'm looking hardest at Olio, but at least he's participating - maybe if we put some pressure on yesterday's chief suspects we could provoke them to post, and surely our reasons for voting them yesterday are still valid?

vote: Gaspode

.

[Dragon Slayer]

Prods and replacement requests are out.

[DoomCow]

I'm most suspicious of Mith at this point, but I'm going to have to do a reread on this day. I'll probably do it tomorrow. If time (and necessity require, I will reread the entire game).

[mith]

And everyone else, this game isn't just between me and mith!

It's not a game between us at all, unless you'rescum. Are you admitting to being scum?

I don't post lengthy votes, I frequently don't explain votes, it is how I play. I don't find the quote for quote wars all that helpful and a clog of info myself. Right now I am just watchign and reading cause I don't feel good about a vote anywhere at the moment.

Well, first, I *didn't* add you to my list because of your short posts. I voted for you because in those short posts I find suspicious wording. I mentioned the shortness because were you to have posted more, I might have a better idea of you than I do now. All I have now is a vague suspicion.

That said, I'm seeing this sort of attitude toward Mafia far too often for my taste. There was a bit of it in Coron yesterday, and I also saw this from you in NYPD. It's careless, it's hurtful to the town, and frankly, it's incredibly dull.

There is no such thing as too much information in Mafia. Yes, everything posted might not be helpful, but at least if it's posted it's *there* for the town to look at later on, if needed. You could perhaps make the argument that such play is personally helpful in a meta game sense (people are reluctant to vote for you for being unhelpful and careless if it's what you do every game, so there's less risk of giving yourself away)... except that it's not really helpful at all; if you're town, and you think you know who's scum, *tell us why*. Otherwise, your reasoning is wasted. If you're Mafia, and you want to lead the town astray, *talk them into it*. Otherwise you have no control over things, and Mafia has become no more than a dice game from your perspective.

I really don't understand why someone would sign up for so many games when they barely participate in any of them. Wouldn't you get more enjoyment from trying really hard in a handful of games, win or lose, rather than siging up for every game you can and making people frustrated with you?

So, with a slight suggestion that a new "Lynch All Short Posters" meta game strategy wouldn't be a terrible idea, I am going to

Vote: PeaceBringer

, on the basis that he doesn't seem to care whether the town gets it right, the suspicious "pressure" wording, and because he can't seem to come up with a single player he finds *suspicious* or any reasons for that. And hopefully we'll have some replacements and more active players soon.

[mith]

Bleh, second sentence of second paragraph should say "I listed you" instead of "I voted for you".

[PeaceBringer]

Mith, I come from an entirely different "school" of play. I do interact. I don't like long posts. NYPD was a game that didn't keep my interest level. This game is more difficult because I don't know the subject matter. I find it not always helpful to reveal all thoughts. A vote without explanation can be for many reasons.

I personally don't find long drawn out posts helpful. Often they are redunant, make the same nonesense over and over. Quote wars are very dull and usually end up as pissing contests and don't tell much of anything. I listened, found your defense reasonable but then to turn around and attack someone who plays differently and annoyed you over lack of being connected to an experimental game in the past is very scummy. Oh, and I find long, drawn out, rambling posts which ultimately say nothing to be dull and excessive, especially when there is a distinct lack of any humor.

Also given that thinking I cannot rest easy knowing you can kill, therefore

unvote, vote mith