Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: Kairyuu

He was mean to me in the sign-up thread.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm in the Sens/Zach camp that NK speculation offers no substantial benefit and several potential harms.

I came into this expecting 3 or 4 scum, and at this point could still see either. IMO we should just assume there are 4 because it's a possibility, even if it's less likely especially given the existence of the vanilla 2 vs. 10 setup.

...

I don't think jammer slipped up, especially given that there probably aren't 4 scum.

Cephrir expects three or four scum, says we should assume four scum because of that possibility. And then concludes by stating there probably aren't four scum. While these statements are completely contradictory they certainly don't look good to me.

Unvote; Vote: Cephrir

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: Fair enough, it's contradictory. But does that really matter?

Yes, I’m inherently suspicious of anyone who either fails to take a stance or tries to make multiple stances because both of those are the easiest ways to make sure you’re never wrong or always partially right thus just slipping into the background.

also, in addition to Mastin's following post I would tell you to look at Sensfan's death on n0 in Mafia 91. Not random.

Mastin has a very good point when he says that n0 kills are very probably not random.

Very good point? It isnt brain surgery, pal. What scumgroup kills randomly?

The flaw you have is, that any motive you give to a scumkill is automatically WIFOM. Thus, no conclusion you can draw from the kills can make a strong case.

Agreed. Ironically, Alex mentions M91 as solid reason for NK speculation, noting that Sens’ N0 death wasn’t random. Except the other scum group, which I was a part of, removed everyone we played with from the player list and then randomly killed from that list N0 as to throw off townies trying to do this exact kind of speculation. BM’s last two sentences perfectly sum up my opinion on this matter.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Japanese Mafia:

Anyways, here's the list of people in the game with us removed and the people I want to keep around removed as well. Feel free to repost the list removing players you want to keep around so we can figure out who we want to kill on N0.

I have only played with one of them and it's an ongoing game, so I am little help here. I've seen some SensFan play before and could go for him as the kill on night 0.

later... DDD just states his proposal.

Anyways, here's my proposal for N0...

Kill: Zilla
Block: Benmage

So I don't have a clue if there's a motive or if it's just random. But I clearly remembered the sensfan kill speculation and motives by people in BOTH scumteams.

Hmm, maybe I wasn't as explicit as I thought I was in strategy there but the purpose of that kill was definitely to get rid of a player with no known connection to any of us. To suggest that scum only kill players they know or respect/fear simply isn't correct and such analysis is quite myopic.

V/LA until late Sunday.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: Fair enough, it's contradictory. But does that really matter?

Yes, I’m inherently suspicious of anyone who either fails to take a stance or tries to make multiple stances because both of those are the easiest ways to make sure you’re never wrong or always partially right thus just slipping into the background.

also, in addition to Mastin's following post I would tell you to look at Sensfan's death on n0 in Mafia 91. Not random.

Mastin has a very good point when he says that n0 kills are very probably not random.

Very good point? It isnt brain surgery, pal. What scumgroup kills randomly?

The flaw you have is, that any motive you give to a scumkill is automatically WIFOM. Thus, no conclusion you can draw from the kills can make a strong case.

Agreed. Ironically, Alex mentions M91 as solid reason for NK speculation, noting that Sens’ N0 death wasn’t random. Except the other scum group, which I was a part of, removed everyone we played with from the player list and then randomly killed from that list N0 as to throw off townies trying to do this exact kind of speculation. BM’s last two sentences perfectly sum up my opinion on this matter.

Out of sheer interest, rather than any game relevance, have you got a link to this process taking place? Like in a quicktopic or whatever?

BM

http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/tMHQY9RX8RT

Though I wasn't as clear in my post(s) in retrospect as I remembered, but I assume people would only remove players they knew from the list and then from that list I randomly selected one. As it stands, I've never played with Zilla and I sent in the kill on him. So I find the Alex/Mastin theories to be more than a little short-sighted.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Though I wasn't as clear in my post(s) in retrospect as I remembered, but I assume people would only remove players they knew from the list and then from that list I randomly selected one. As it stands, I've never played with Zilla and I sent in the kill on him. So I find the Alex/Mastin theories to be more than a little short-sighted.

But, still, many scum in that game suggested Sensfan kill because he might be dangerous. It's not a totally invalid theory.

I don’t think I ever said it was an invalid theory just that pushing it so hard when it’s such an easy WIFOM situation is sub-standard play.

@DDD:

Cephrir expects three or four scum, says we should assume four scum because of that possibility. And then concludes by stating there probably aren't four scum. While these statements are completely contradictory they certainly don't look good to me.

I disagree with this. If anything, Cephrir's idea makes sense. If we assume a higher number of scum than we actually have then we will be more cautious, thinking that we have less chances than we actually do. Then, if we're wrong, we get an extra lynch or something that we weren't expecting, as opposed to being wrong while assuming too few scum, and hitting endgame sooner than we thought.

I don’t disagree that we should work on the “rather safe than sorry” assumption, its Cephrir’s tone and attempt to hold multiple opinions that bothers me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Cephrir, DDD, and jammer--are you voting for the person you think has been the scummiest thus far in the game?

Cephrir opens the game with a wishy-washy post and then goes effectively MIA. I'm certainly comfortable with me vote right now.

I'd also be comfortable voting Mastin for pushing mediocre theories early and claiming they cleared him and then going MIA as well.

Anyways, I think I side with Sens/BM on this latest brouhaha. I see no benefit to scum to ask for a claim at that point. Since I'm a firm believer in scum generally playing conservatively even forgetful scum aren't going to ask for a claim in that situation. So I'm inclined to believe his crappy trap explanation.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

2.) Mastin felt town early, but the fact I haven't seen much Mastin posting since the walls of doom starts to give me the twitch again.

I have recently discovered that Mastin's scum meta is to fall behind and lurk. I might not be opposed to his lynch given I have seen this prove accurate twice.

Links?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Another interesting thing I found in Mastin's game as scum - he suggested analyzing the night kills

I noticed that as well, if nothing else it establishes that NK speculation is something scum-Mastin is willing to use to push his agenda. Couple that with VPB's meta-find and I'm ready to push Mastin above Cephrir on my scum list.

Unvote; Vote: Mastin

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Baltar, DDP, and SensFan, it looks as though your votes are primarily due to lurking and meta reasons - is that correct?

It's about equal with his pushing of short-sighted NK speculation and trying to auto-clear himself.

~

Don’t much care for Alex’s attack on Zach based on his prior attitude on NK speculation. I see no reason to fault Zach for coming to the proper realization that NK speculation is a generally pointless endeavor. Furthermore, I agree with Zach about Alex, the best case scenario appears to be that Alex is letting his out of game feelings towards Mastin color his perception of him in-game and the worst case scenario is scum either defending a buddy or defending a townie to earn cred with the town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Quick and dirty view of the camn/GIEFF kerfuffle. I agree that camn really hasn't been doing any scumhunting. However, both camn and kmd have suggested that's consistent with her town meta so while it bothers me I'm not convinced a strong tell. Furthermore, GIEFF keeps trying to drive home the idea that defensiveness is a scumtell and I completely disagree with that idea. Players of either alignment get defensive when attacked; granted they don't usually get as emotional as camn did but I'd bank on that being personality more than alignment.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDP - it is not consistent with her town meta OR her scum meta. camn scumhunts as both aligments, so a meta argument is null. But the behavior itself is NOT null. If a player performs a scummy action, do you think that action is suddenly much less scummy because that player has never performed it before?

No, I agree, it's anti-town behavior. The question is, is it scummy behavior. Personally, I think her reaction to such charges is telling, as scum I would generally try to fix any criticisms that were leveled against me, while as town I find it much more natural to simply argue/disagree with the person raising points against me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD

: I have a good opinion on your analysys from our game so I'm still expecting something other than your Mastin vote... Imagine if you get killed... We would lose your valuable input...

If you've got a specific issue or a specific person that you want my input on, let me know and I'll put together an opinion in relatively short order. Otherwise, I'll continue to post when I feel the need to comment on something and not just to fill up the page.

The above applies to

everyone

requesting my input. Ask direct questions, get direct answers; otherwise I'll continue as I have been.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I really have no idea what SpyreX was going on about at the top of the page, it didn't look like English to me.

@DDD, *rolling magic carpet*
Who is the top 3 on your scumlist?

Mastin is still number one and I don't understand why attention on him has continued to drop. It only validates his lurking behavior.

I've completely lost any sort of read on Cephrir because it's been so long since he made a post with any sort of content in it.

I guess Alex is number two right now, I simply don't understand his shameless defense of Mastin from a town perspective. Furthermore, he continued and continues to wall-post even after people have requested that he knock it off.

After that I find it hard to seperate people, but I've got Benmage, GIEFF, and SpyreX in a tier below those people but above everyone else. At this juncture I still see camn as town and GIEFF and Benmage seem the two pushing on her the hardest. SpyreX seems to be playing a different game from the rest of us; while the rest of us are trying to hunt scum, he seems content to hunt "lurkers".

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD:

1) What do you think my case on SensFan? (No, it's not asking for approval, I want to see where you stand)
2) What do you think about BM's trap?
3) What do you make of Camn's attitude? Still think it's all Camn-like and therefore a null tell or what?
4) Is buddying a scumtell? Who do you think buddies who?
5) Don't you think that your attitude of not playing unless you're asked for is totally anti-town? or sub-standard play?

1) Hard to tell where your case actually is, I'm trying to find it in your ISO and it's just a mess. Anyways, either you've never played or followed a game Sensfan is in or you've conveniently chosen to disregard that experience because I don't really see anything out of the ordinary for Sens. Does it clear Sens? Hardly, but the things you're complaining about are for more indicative of player than alignment.

2) Already talked about this in my ISO 6, of course it's easy to lose something like that between everyone else's wall posts of doom.

3) I want to see how camn's behavior continues to play out before I comment and thus skew the interactions.

4) Scum buddying scum; extremely rarely. Scum buddying town, quite common. I see obvious connections of Sens-BM, KMD-Camn, and Alex-Mastin so far in this game.

5) You're about the last person in this game who should be criticizing someone's posting habits.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD-is this sort of sit back and see what happens attitude typical of your town play?

Gonna sound like a copout, but I do my best to avoid having a style of play as either alignment. Looking at my five completed town games I'd describe my play in two of them as aggressive (not Sens aggressive, but aggressive for me), one where I was involved but not particularly aggressive, and the last two where I was much more passive.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

As I've said elsewhere, I'm having access problems with MS.net at my home computer. In the games where I am pages behind, this will be a hindrance; I don't have time in 30 minutes to catch up. It should be fixed by tomorrow; I'll see what I can do then.

You will be dead by tomorrow.

*crosses his fingers*

This is a good point. If Mastin is town, he might well be NKed tonight. I'm happy to give the situation a chance to resolve itself.

BM

Wait, why would scum NK Mastin?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Because everyone hates him. And if the scum are confident in their position, they'll feel confident enough to spend an NK getting rid of someone who is clearly zapping the GAME out of the game.

I find relying on scum to remove undesirable elements from the game to generally be a losing proposition.

also, i expect you just lost.

Lost what?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

also, i expect you just lost.

Lost what?

The Game. duh.

BM

I didn't even know I was playing.

~

Moar people vote for Mastin already, plz.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I am waiting for the following players to weigh in on the alex thing (and I apologize it got so long, I tried to limit it, but failed):

Kmd, Spyrex, jammer, and DDD

:

If you agree with an alex lynch, please vote for him now. This will allow players like Sens and Baltar, who are mainly interested in ending the day and moving on, to switch to alex, and we really CAN end the day. If not, then please say you won't, so I know when to stop trying to get an alex lynch through.

Mastin is both closer to lynch and a better lynch, my vote stands.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Great, nine pages in twenty hours, that’ll really encourage me to participate more.

Despite the objections I’ve seen townies (possibly Benmage in other games, Ben links if so) prepare in such a fashion overnight. I think his choice of targets to ISO is strange and was more than a little influenced by the amount people posted. That was about the best use of a self-vote I’ve ever seen, though I doubt the wagon would’ve gained any more steam as different people came online.

I think Alex’s reaction to my behavior is hilarious and he can’t spell the word collaborate properly.

I’d usually object to lurker pressure/lynching, since the prod mechanism is supposed to make sure they post occasionally, but since that hasn’t worked I’d be fine with it in this case.

Vote: Cephrir

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD has posted in other places but hasn't even posted to say hi...

Hi.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I’m reading the latest GIEFF/Battle Mage exchange on page 61 and Battle Mage’s stances are just absolutely baffling to me. Describing GIEFF with phrases like “pro-town” and “good play” just does not compute for me; especially when Battle Mage simultaneously seemed to be arguing that the last NK implicated him.

Have to disagree with Zach; “gloating” isn’t a scumtell. I’ve made basically that exact same post as town in other games. Furthermore, Zach pulling a one (maybe two) game meta read on me is even more amusing to me than Alex’s inability to spell. Alex wants a list and conveniently I was already working on one.

Town:

SensFan
Benmage

Probably Town:

Zachrulez
Alexhans

One of these two is scum:

GIEFF
Battle Mage

For one reason or another I have no appreciable read on these people, I expect two of them are scum:

blackcatcontract
Kmd4390
SpyreX
jammer

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Danny - what are your thoughts on a bcc lynch? You were the first vote on both of the previous two lynches, which both amounted to lurker-lynches.

I think the Mastin lynch was a bit more than just a straight lurker lynch. Anyways, by the way I see the game broken up (see above) I'd estimate a 50% chance of success with a BCC lynch. Which is decent, but I'd rather we actually got the replacement we should've had weeks ago.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I have enough answers from you now, though, Spyrex - I would like to hear jammer, Benmage, and DDD explain their preference of Cephrir over bcc.

I expressed my dislike of some of Cephrir's comments on D1 enough to vote for him; I had no such issue with Kai/BCC.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

alexhans' scum. vs. town contributions:

[mrow]Game[col]Alignment[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / DayMini 714[col]Scum[col]0.6[col]0.5Open 129[col]Scum[col]2.1[col]1Mini 761[col]Town[col]2[col]1.3Mini 773[col]Town[col]1.2[col]1.2Newbie 744[col]Town[col]0.8[col]0.5Mafia 91[col]Town[col]4.5[col]2This game[col]?[col]3.9[col]3.9

Scum average

[col][col]1.4[col]0.8

Town average

[col][col]2.1[col]1.3

Alex's flurry of activity in this game is largely based on being attacked so much, but I would still call this a mild towntell.

Hey Gieff, you seem to be pretty good at these. Could you possibly do one on DDD? I'm curious...

I second this.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Danny, who do you think is town in this game?

Here are your posting habits, by role.

[mrow]Game[col]Alignment[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / DayMini 817[col]Scum[col]1.5[col]0.6Newbie 783[col]Scum[col]0.7[col]0.5Newbie 739[col]Scum[col]0.8[col]0.5Newbie 727[col]Scum[col]1.1[col]0.7South Park Mafia[col]SK[col]0.9[col]0.5Mini 779[col]Town[col]0.6[col]0.2Mini 749[col]Town[col]2.5[col]1.4Mini 749[col]Town[col]2.5[col]1.4Mini 761[col]Town[col]1.6[col]0.8Open 142[col]Town[col]1.3[col]0.7Newbie 743[col]Town[col]1.5[col]1.2This Game[col]?[col]0.9[col]0.3[col][col][col]Non-Town Average[col][col]1[col]0.6Town Average[col][col]1.7[col]1

Thanks, you included 749 twice (in place of 793, I think) which probably skews things a little bit.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Town:

SensFan
Benmage

Probably Town:

Zachrulez
Alexhans

Nothing much has changed since I posted my list. I'm currently trying to decide if Battle Mage's "woe is me" shtick scummy or just irritating.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ben, you immediately voted me after GIEFF posted his statistics. Do you have other reasons for voting for me and (how much) does the fact that the initial statistics were wrong affect the confidence of your vote?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

This is where I post for irony's sake, right?

Anyways, I agree with GIEFF/Alex/Zach that BM/SpyreX seem to be engaging in historical revisionism and they seemed to be reaching in their arguments against GIEFF.

Furthermore, I find it curious and a bit damning that both SpyreX and Vi seem to have no interest in whether or not I'm actually scum. I mean, they both know how to get me to contribute so they can evaluate my stances and opinions. The fact that they haven't done that suggests to me that they're simply looking for the next lurker lynch instead of actually trying to scumhunt.

One name occurs within both of those objections so I'll...

Vote: SpyreX

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I mean, they both know how to get me to contribute so they can evaluate my stances and opinions. The fact that they haven't done that suggests to me that they're simply looking for the next lurker lynch instead of actually trying to scumhunt.

The last time I checked, I was not responsible for your contribution. But thanks for admitting to being a lurker; I feel quite validated.

Why would I deny something that's so obviously the truth. You'll have to excuse me if I don't congratulate you for this insight though; seeing as how I announced this was how I was going to play.

Let's go with SpyreX. Please tell me about his alleged revisionism.

SpyreX suggested (or agreed with BM) that GIEFF was widely viewed as pro-town. GIEFF's post in 1859 nicely sums up most of it, but I have a hard time believing anyone would say the guy who spent most of D1 and D2 wall-posting the town into submission was especially pro-town. It's a nice way to dirty someone up because to defend themselves they're forced to go back and drag up all the old arguments and votes against them.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

See, at this point SpyreX has revealed his desperation by twisting how I'm playing the game. No, I'm not wall posting or anything close to it, but I show up regularly to comment on the latest goings on. And he knows as well as anyone that I'll show up to answer any questions directed my way; so why hasn't he put any towards me? Because he wants my mislynch and he can't smear me as "under contributing" if he actually tries to involve me in the game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The nature of his lurking is the issue at hand. He's here. He's choosing not to play. He's came out and OMGUS'd me based on moon logic.

Bullshit, just because I don't produce the spew that so many in this game have doesn't mean I've not been playing. And your attempts to push for my lynch based on playstyle grounds or Ben's unspecified meta arguments are incredibly poor and a little insulting as well. You don't think I consider these things when I'm starting a new game?

Also lulz @ Sens, the irony cake is delicious.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The nature of his lurking is the issue at hand. He's here. He's choosing not to play. He's came out and OMGUS'd me based on moon logic.

Bullshit, just because I don't produce the spew that so many in this game have doesn't mean I've not been playing. And your attempts to push for my lynch based on playstyle grounds or Ben's unspecified meta arguments are incredibly poor and a little insulting as well. You don't think I consider these things when I'm starting a new game?

Also lulz @ Sens, the irony cake is delicious.

Which irony?

The only case that's been made against me is "oh nos Danny is lurking", you come in and say I'm scum with no new reasons so I have to assume that's your primary reason. Except you've done mostly the same thing (yes I know you had V/LA for some of the time) which makes that argument hilariously dubious coming from you.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Ben, you think maybe if I throw a small fit and self-vote maybe you clowns would see reason?

Sens, I have more posts than you over days two and three and half the people here seem to think I'm the worst lurker of all-time, you fo the math.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I show up regularly

How regularly, perchance?

I check the forums regularly throughout the work day, though I don't have time to write anything more substantial than a paragraph usually. I check the forums again during the night when my more substantial postings usually are and I often go missing from Friday night through Saturday. Of course I haven't bothered to check if that's reality or just my perceptions; I might slack off work more than I think.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD, getting out of Vi posts, you posted in other games while not in this one. Is there any particulair reason this game doesn't get the same attention as others?

I think the combination of early speed and size made me lose association with this game somewhat. It's usually one small thing that'll trigger my feelings one way or another for a player, but the small things are just lost in this game under the huge amount of churn. I think in general I'm going to stay away from large games in the future unless they're interestingly themed.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Forgive me, DDD...

I'll consider it.

Unvote; Vote: KMD

What the Senators' fan said.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD mentions KMD even less... He's only in a 50-50 % pool of 4 people in wich 2 are supposedly scum (with jammer, SpyreX and BCC)

Seems like decent enough odds to me. Couple that with GIEFF's 2048 and add that to the very basic bandwagon = more information hypothesis and it looks and feels like a solid vote to me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Battle Mage, you have waffled so often on my alignment that I am surprised that you are now SO sure I am scum that my case on KMD is enough for you to not want to vote him.

It almost seems to me that his stance on you depends on what everyone else thinks of you. As soon as there's some active interest in you, he backs off and suggests you're town but when there's competing other wagons and little active interest in you suddenly he thinks you're scum again.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

What a convenient way to avoid having to actually hunt for scum Ben.

It bothers me that SpyreX is doing his best to carve out a difference between myself and Sens, seems like he’s digging for whatever extremely weak justification he can find to support my lynch and not that of Sens. If we could actually get the SpyreX lynch that I’d like and he flips scum I’d have to re-evaluate my stance on Sens.

I already noted Battle Mage’s strange stance on GIEFF yesterday; couple that with his vote on me who he claims is not in his three most likely scum suspects and I keep coming to the conclusion that he’s scum. The absence of evidence isn’t itself evidence, but I’ve seen nothing lately to suggest he’s town either which places him only behind SpyreX on my list of scum.

Unvote; Vote: Battle Mage

Updated list from least to most scummy.

Town

Zach
Sens
Alex
Ben

Mid-range

Vi
Jammer
GIEFF
KMD

Scum

Battle Mage
SpyreX

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So you're the fourth person on this wagon too, DDD. Do you think people are justified in seeing that as a scumtell?

Internally, I know it's invalid since I know my alignment. Externally, here's my though process on the matter: vote placement analysis to my understanding is primarily predicated on finding a player looking for easy lynches.

The entire analysis is subject to some terrible WIFOM (knowledgeable scum know the middle votes are actually most suspicious in the current meta so they'll have no problem starting a wagon or hammering to avoid those vote positions which in turn makes it less likely that scum will cast middle votes which means... and on and on it goes). This greatly reduces it's effectiveness in my eyes.

Furthermore, such analysis only looks at whether a lynch is easy, not whether it's good. I'm much more concerned with someone pushing for bad lynches then someone who has or accepts good reasoning as a reason for their vote.

Finally, it also only looks at whether a lynch is easy, not whether it's consistent with the player's gameplay. Again, another issue which I generally believe to be a more pressing concern.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

However, would it be fair to say that you have been jumping on easy lynches? Look at your voting record:

Kairyuu (first vote so etc.)
Cephrir (not there to defend self)
Mastin (not there to defend self, 5th on wagon)
Cephrir (not there to defend self, 3rd on wagon)
Kmd4390 (I'm voting SensFan because he blindly jumped onto the wagon without researching the case, you did the same; 4th on wagon)
Battle Mage (not a terribly contested wagon, 4th on wagon)

Sure I'll generally agree to that statement. I'm still quite comfortable with all those votes though.

Furthermore, I find it strange that you leave out my vote on SpyreX which cuts against your theory, I only mention it because you bring up the Kairyuu random vote as well. If you wanted completeness then you'd have to include the SpyreX vote and if you were just bringing up the points that supported your opinion then the Kairyuu RVS vote strikes me as irrelevant.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD and Sens - have either of you made a case on anybody this game?

A full case? Probably not, I usually put those together after an ISO read and an ISO read of anyone besides me in this game sounds about as fun as a transcranial lobotomy.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Danny, you haven't answered this yet:

A full case? Probably not, I usually put those together after an ISO read and an ISO read of anyone besides me in this game sounds about as fun as a transcranial lobotomy.

[distancing]But this was NOT the case for most of this game. Early on, you had plenty of opportunity to try to make a case with much shorter iso-reads, but you didn't. And you don't have to read an entire iso to make a case. So I don't buy your excuse.[/distancing]

I see no question marks... Early on? Within two weeks we were still in day one and had passed the 30 page mark. At that point doing an ISO case has already become unwieldy, especially with no lynch information to work from, it only got worse from there. And doing a partial ISO is just asking to miss the forest for the trees.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So it's best just not to make any cases at all? That's a ridiculous stance to take. How do you expect to find any scum?

(Two question marks, for your convenience).

Thanks for the question marks. The problem is that you’re conflating not making full cases with not playing the game. I’ve made individual points against players and I’m reading and evaluating everything that’s being said; again don’t conflate putting together a full case as the only method of finding scum.

Are you town? How much do you care for this game? if you're town, who are you going to blame when we lose the game? What kind of evil pleasure are you getting from picking on useless things like grammar and spelling?

1) Yes.
2) Not very much.
3) Well you can hand out a nice dollop of blame to Mastin and Cephrir for making me look like the paragon of activity, but beyond that since I don’t know who scum is and who is town among active players, I don’t know who is actually playing well and who is not.
4) I enjoy picking on your grammar and spelling because you get all upset about it and I enjoy the simple pleasures like someone getting upset over small things.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It’s funny when I pick on the guy who doesn’t speak English as a first language for random spelling/grammatical/phrasing errors. It reeks of desperation when others pick up on similar mistakes and decide they actually posses some sort of meaning and use it as an argument.

I side very strongly with GIEFF on the topic of Jammer (duh) and I think Vi’s 2510 also perfectly countered the disaster that was SpyreX’s argument. Seriously, SpyreX is doing whatever he can to keep my lynch viable at this point no matter how wrong or dodgy it is. Of course Jammer is quite culpable in this mess as well and ironically his two reasons for voting me are lurking and easy wagoning… when he admits to being too lazy to build a case on me besides that and oh yeah, I happen to be an easy wagon.

The irony cake is sweet and delicious

Kmd thinks I’m so town that he refuses to even put me on his list of people he has to think about lynching. What a great guy.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

And while we're on the subject of lurking, it seems to be something that DDD, Battle Mage, and Jammer are enjoying the cover of while the deadline comes through too.

How's that for wafting around suspicion?...

That depends. Do you have evidence that jammer and DDD are onsite but not posting here? Battle Mage, no contest (see below).

I was in fact on site and not posting here. I read up yesterday, but nothing terribly interesting was said in my humble opinion so I skipped commenting for a day.

It's time for the Debonair Leo DiCaprio show, now that a jammer wagon is growing. Would you prefer jammer, or Battle Mage? and why?

Well lately jammer has been turning it on and doing his best to surge down my list, but I don't think he passes Battle Mage who was looking quite scummy earlier today and suddenly has gone missing right when it's appropriate for bandwagons under threat of deadline are being formed. There's no reason to give Battle Mage a pass for what appears to be a distinct strategy of avoiding this game when it's most vital to have some sort of contribution.

I'm simultaneously heartened by the fact that it's so hard to get a wagon on him together because I don't think it makes sense for BM-town to have so many defenders, but it also worries me a little that we might not be able to actually get the numbers together.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I was in fact on site and not posting here. I read up yesterday, but nothing terribly interesting was said in my humble opinion so I skipped commenting for a day.

You are capable of writing interesting things yourself, you know.

My favorite piece of completely trivial knowledge is that The Bowling Hall of Fame is in St. Louis, Missouri. They're moving it now to Arlington, Texas. This irritates me.

Oh, you meant about this game? Yeah if I had something interesting to say regarding that I would've said it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Closer we get to deadline the more everything seems to fall apart. I'm down with the SpyreX lynch, but my new concern is that he'll show up, deliver a nice AtE like we've seen from about four other people in this game and suddenly everyone will change their mind again.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

What has DDD done in the last 9 days?

My best post of the game happened within the last nine days and why are you drawing such an arbitrary line in the sand?

Really, I'm just incredibly annoyed with GIEFF who seems to be doing his damnedest to secure a no lynch. He broke up the Battle Mage wagon in favor of a SpyreX wagon and then broke that up in favor of a self-vote? Seriously? How the hell does that help the town at all. He'll probably come back and explain it was some elaborate trap, but at this point I'm only too happy to oblige him in his quest to get himself lynched.

Unvote; Vote: GIEFF

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

What am I thinking. Battle Mage being absent at this point is inexcusable.

Damn right, and whose responsible for destroying that wagon? GIEFF. Moar votes for GIEFF nao or at least more votes for SpyreX so we can actually get a lynch today.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD hasn't mentioned me AT ALL recently, votes me simply for the self-vote, and then disappears until the lynch goes through.

Well since I can see absolutely no town benefit to your stupid self-vote and I can see plenty of scum motivation that's about all the reason I needed. Plus your play under the gun has looked alot more like scum than SpyreX's has.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Well I'm back to where I was yesterday before GIEFF decided to do his best Zoltan Mesko impression and punt this game away. SpyreX or Battle Mage are most likely to be scum and even better they're not mutually exclusive scum. I could also be swayed to vote for Jammer or KMD, but I'd rather we lynch SpyreX or BM today.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Alex posts what appears to be an unordered list of players. Just about everyone has jammer as an acceptable lynch and I'm still not sure why people are voting for Zach, and barring something seismec I'm not getting on that wagon.

V/LA (Camping) through late Sunday and possibly even Monday

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: What's your opinion on all this?

What is "all this"?

At the time I assumed it was a bus. As it sits, I am not sure.

What do you think about DDD saying barring something seismic he wont be voting for you?

I think that while I appreciate the sentiment, I don't ever remember him explaining why he thinks I'm town, so it bothers me a lot.

The previous time you brought this up it looked to me like you phrased it as a rhetorical question. Furthermore, it's hard to argue the points against you when I have a hard time even finding what they are. As for why I consider you town, it's a combination of meta and a lack of substantial points against you.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So jammer got run up to L-1 twice within the span of two days; kmd is the other wagon and for some reason there's no real traction towards a SpyreX or Battle Mage lynch. Oh, and Sens has posted less recently than me which considering the time it's been since I posted last is pretty terrible.

Vote: Battle Mage

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I was going to come in here and say basically the same thing that KMD did (Battle Mage or SpyreX), but several people have raised good points about Ben's continual survival so I'll have to think about that. There's few enough people alive that I think it might be worth it to look at possible pairings.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Facts I'm working off of:

Zach is town (My best read)
SpyreX and KMD are not scum together (Based on Spyrex's terrible L-1 vote om KMD)
Ben is not scum with Battle Mage or Sens (Based on the fact that this is probably the worst possible time to try and bus a partner).

Which means Ben isn't scum because his only possible partners are SpyreX and KMD who aren't scum together. Which means BM and Sens are scum along with SpyreX or KMD as their partner, my money is on SpyreX. With the votes breaking the way they are...

Vote: Battle Mage

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, why should we look at pairs any more or less than we would on Day 1 with no scum flips yet?

Feasibility.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unvote; Vote: Benmage

Thanks.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD should have been lynched early. I'm not sure how he got away with that playstyle.

You and me both, brudda. Really I just got completely behind in the first massive week/two weeks of this game and instead of trying to catch-up with all of it and make a bunch of dumb mistakes in the process, it was easier to simply announce that I was going to be the most helpful lurker ever and then do that.

I do think the one big swing point in the game was the Day 3 deadline lynch of GIEFF instead of SpyreX, because if SpyreX gets lynched there I think maybe I don't get the next day, but I do get lynched which leaves KMD on all on lonesome to get the last lynch or two.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Play:

Day 3 really was the turning point, mostly because from Day 3 on there were a lot of really funky scum interrelationships going on. If you have the time and energy, go back and read our three scum from Day 3 onward. There's lots of fun stuff there you can use in the future for scumhunting.

What comes to mind for me is that from late day three until endgame both SpyreX and I continued to verbally claim the other was scum and harass each other, but that I don't think we ever voted for each other past that point instead voting for the townies who looked scummy.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

...

Debonair Danny DiPietro

..... prob-scum

Kmd4390

... Probtown...

SpyreX

null read...

Meh.. not the greatest D1 reads ever... but oh well.

c) I am disappointed at the lack of respect shown to me by DDD in your quicktopic. He apparently doesn't know that I would have seen all three of you dead had I lived. Hm.

I don't see why I should grant you that respect when you post your early reads in the same post and they're not especially good. Maybe you are a good player, but you weren't this game.