Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[jammer]

For what it matters, I know Mastin, GIEFF and Spyrex from EM. Spyrex to long ago to remember his playing style. :/
And I played in my newb game with VP Baltar.

Mastin you plan using meta to see who killed the cow, while you already made clear scum can easily wifom the meta. With that, there only has to be one that played with hascow, to know him and kill him. You think(and others?) talking about meta, is a better way to find scum, then simple scumhunting?


Ignores the supposed killing of RVS of Mastin.

Vote: SensFan

For replacing out in comfirmation stage in my other game.

[jammer]

while you already made clear scum can easily wifom the meta.

And where'd I say that, Jammer?

Here.

However, the tinfoil says that Mastin as scum could go the brazen I wouldn't do this as scum because it would be awesome.

True, for wifom purposes, I might, but truth is, I probably would've killed Alex or an EM player. Maybe Kai instead.

Better than the RVS. We essentially skipped it with the metagaming scumhunting. Relying on scum hunting is what we'll eventually do. But for now, Meta rules.
And anyone who gets rid of metagaming as an argument with our current kill is going to instantly be labeled more likely to be scum from me.

I am not trying to get completely rid of meta. I see meta as how you know other people play, and you compare that towards current play. Trying to gues who would kill who with maybe just 1 out of 4 deciding, including a possible wifom to get players on the wrong track. Seems very less usefull to me, if it even is.
Besides that, why is the kill of hascow so special? Only becouse some didn't play with her and wouldn't kill becouse of that? That is all? Are you really going to ignore some players becouse they would not shoot someone where they never played with?

With that, there only has to be one that played with hascow, to know him and kill him.

Still doesn't eliminate the fact that one of the people who knows him had to have killed him.

With 4 scum, you're trying to find out what one of them would kill. Include a wifom-kill argument, and we got little if anything to find mafia on. It sounds pretty random to me.

[jammer]

Scum amount according to alexhans. He said 4 and I took it as a believable truth. I think 4 would fit well with 16 players.

[jammer]

Here.

That was referring to me. Not other players.
So, unless that was a direct accusation I was scum, then you're incorrect.

You are the only one that can use wifom...

Thing is, I doubt Wifom is involved in N0 kills. To me, N0 kill are a chance to get rid of a player with a good reputation. Like Kai, or Alex, for example.

But you would do it yourself?

And, yes. They wouldn't kill hascow because of that.
Think EM, Jammer. When was the last time you saw someone kill someone else they've never seen playing?
Probably rather some time ago.

I redirect you towards my recent games on EM. I have proven your theory multiple times wrong there. I believe this makes me look bad, right?

When was the last time you saw someone kill someone else based off of that someone's play in a previous game?
I'd call you a liar if you answered anything other than the last time you played.

I was scum last game there, you can try calling me a liar now.(I did kill someone that I know, btw, but if you see where I could pick between back then.)

Stop twisting my words.
Ignore, never.
Find less suspicious?
Probably.

It was a question, stop twisting that I am twisting your words. I wanted to have a feeling how far you are 'clearing' someone for a kill.

@GIEFF, I think 4 scum 16 players is fitting with no PR's. I looked at the little reasoning of alexhans what didn't look like a wild gues. I took it as truth becouse I though it was. I believe 4 scum sounds reasenable.
With this, this may sound stupid. But I though Alex reasoning was based on standard MS logic, balance of a basic setup like this. MS doesn't have a standard way to balance setups like this?

The topic where you could in, stated that it was the last mountainous game. Means it was played before. Where are the links from earlier games, btw. Do those also have 16 players, does the scum/town ratio change there?

GIEFF you vote only becouse I "blindly" assumed there are 4 scum?

Could you say what sounds like a reasenable amount, if that is incorrect.

[jammer]

Does making it a question automatically mean there's no word-twisting, Jammer?

Yes, you wanted to hunt for scum with help of meta. And my question was meant, to know how much weight you put on it.

If I ask, "Are you female?", it doesn't mean I say you said you where female. So I don't twist your words.


GIEFF, did you just say in the same sentance. 3 is a reasonable amount and that I messed up with telling a non-reasonable amount as the numbers of mafia?
Doesn't that seem strange to yourself, I followed Alex in 4 scum. You say 3 is reasonable and tell I messed up with 4 scum?

[jammer]

@GIEFF
You state 2 is mathematically favored to beat town in this setup, 3 could be reasonable. You vote me for following Alex in 4 scum as a scum-slip, me "knowing" how many mafia there are.

4 is a big difference to 2, I doubt the amount of mafia would be doubled from what is needed. Or that link you showed is complete bogus, and 2 isn't optimal for that amount of townys.

Are you planning to tunnel me on a believable truth of 4 scum. While you show a link where 2 scum is most likely.

@Mastin
I didn't think I was twisting your words. If I read back, I get you could see that.

[quote=mastin]Stop twisting my words.]ii[/quote]

[jammer]

lol@ bb code knowledge, I was referring to ''stop twisting words'' of you.

As you where twisting my words by saying I did it before, imo. I did not!

[jammer]

And what would you propose we do on D1? This game is going to be filled with a lot of WIFOM to find scum, as there is no role confirmation.

Looking for scum-slips and tells. And wifom based on that, not on what died, and wifom based on that.
Lynching based on who died, are you considering that?
Based on what died. Who seems a good candidate doing that according to you? And who not.

jammer,

How many scum do you think there are in this game? Why?

As I said 2 is best by math. 4 is to different from that. 2 or 3.


My scummyness drops loads if 4 scum is unreasonable?

My "scummyness" is based on the number of scum that I said...
So if Alex said 6 or 1, and I believed that. You wouldn't even discuss this matter?

.... even if a 4-scum setup assured jammer as scum 100% of the time.

It sounds, if I said 3 you would yell towards other players to vote me, the obv. scum.

Now you realise your reason to vote me is really weak. While if I said 3 scum, you would have tried to push a lynch on me for a number. I don't like that idea.

Vote: GIEFF

My vote for him is because I think he's more likely than the rest of you to be Scum.

Is there a reasoning behind it, or is it just gut.

[jammer]

If this game has 4 scum, I think you are very likely to be one of them, jammer. This has not changed. What did change was my opinion of the likelihood of there actually being 4 scum. Does that make sense?

You pull conclusions far to soon for my opinion. If the number of scums I called was 3 you where ready to vote me off without any though at all.
(and yes, sorry I messed up some quote tags)

@Zach, I'm surprised that makes you feel save in calling me town.
Would you have voted me if I stated that there where 3 mafia?

@camn, why ask specificly VP's opinion about hascow, earlier?

@Kairyuu, What do you think about the opposing of the meta N0 kill from SensFan. While he is suspected becouse of this by you and Mastin.(top-suspect)

[jammer]

You suggest we ignore the kill?

Yes, or come with something good. You say not to disregard the kill, yet I've seen nothing usefull on that topic coming from you.

How's this simple scumhunting:

Ignores the supposed killing of RVS of Mastin.

Vote: SensFan

For replacing out in comfirmation stage in my other game.

You want us back in the RVS? What are you trying to make out of this?

Your previous post(before that) added more then? I prefer RVS above metaing N0 kills. I think that represents my thoughs about that matter. I think the attention I got with random voting, opposing Mastins meta idea and taking 4 scum as truth. Truly got us out of RVS and not the metaing that was bringing us nowhere.

#Jammer's 26: what's your Conclusion? Are you scumhunting? Is mastin?

I was mainly pointing out mistakes in the metaing of kills.

also, in addition to Mastin's following post I would tell you to look at Sensfan's death on n0 in Mafia 91. Not random.

Mastin has a very good point when he says that n0 kills are very probably not random.

If you catched mafia using meta with the kill back then, I can follow. Till I hear you did that, I call the idea stupid.

I don't feel like researching too much right now about numbers... I still stick to my 4 scum theory (And it's practically a wcs that we could use as guideline if we mislynch 3 times in a row... we'll assume lylo).

You didn't research it, yet state it is stupid to say 4 scum is strange, multiple times.

@DDD: Fair enough, it's contradictory. But does that really matter?

Could be a slip where you admitted there aren't 4 scum. While you first went with the flow and assumed 3-4 scum.

Has wouldn't be my choice with players I know; you can auto-clear me from picking the kill, as I would definitely try to lead as mafia and would have to be overridden by someone who I respect highly as a player and recognize the skill of to not nk another pro-town player.

Now I'm not sure whether this was entirely serious or not, but if it was... yeah. Incidentally, it's also suspicious if it was entirely serious.

He certainly is entirely serious.

What do you think about Mastin actions. Does the wagon have good reasons, is it moving to fast?

[jammer]

I vote for who I think is Scum. That's it, that's all.
If you have any doubts about my ability to read with my gut, ask GIEFF.

No need to question this, I know you can't read with your gut. Only one person that can comfirm your "ability"?

Jammer. I sense agressivenes... Haven't we got the game moving with that topic?

Nope, we haven't. I've seen nothing usefull coming from it. And no it did not get the game moving at all. Show me where it did. You sense agressiveness, only thing I did was stating facts. Do you have anything to hide, that bare facts are aggresive, are coming close?

My intention was never to lynch someone using meta. My inention was to get the game moving with some rather serious accussations so people could start arguing, siding, reacting, retorting, etc, etc.

Post 94, you said.

You suggest we ignore the kill?

This question suggests to me ignoring the kill is bad. And that you weight more on it then just a RVS replacer.
If you just want to get the game moving with it, then why question me about being against it when the game already started without it.

dude... I NEVER Said it was STUPID. EVER. And the fact that you're saying I did it multiple times annoys me big time. To assume that there's 3 or 2. Seeing how a lot of players seem to agree one 3 that's a big probability. I just DONT WANT us to lure in a false sense of security assuming that there can on only be 3 scum.

Excuse me? Why not?

No is not. Why is 3 mislynches unbalanced? Town should find scum... 3 day should be lylo if town sucks that much...

Don't be so sure.

DO NOT DISCARD 4 scumteam. It may bite us in the ass if we mislynch thrice.

Implying they are to fast and didn't overthink a scumteam existing out of 4. Excuse me for even linking that to stupid.

What's the HUDE deal with nk speculation then? Also, Note that I said that futher NK would not be useful because they will be probably covered with WIFOM but I think the n0 kill allows a reason...

Did scum knew that the RVS was gonna be avoided like that? if not... why would they think of wifom?

1) NK-speculation distracts
2) Multiple scum, what if they interact and make the whole kill more complicated.
3) The wifom aspect, it wasn't a normal kill to start with. So they didn't think about wifom? Also refering to DDDs post 115.
4) It did not get us out of RVS stage.
5) As you ignored question posed earlier, I assume noone has ever founded arguments out of it, to catch scum with it.
Can we stop now about the discussion with meta N0 kills?
You talked about how it isn't useless. But don't who the suspects would be according to it.

Alex, one question. If you didn't see any reason why Mastin was voted. And scum would be jumping on the wagon if they didn't already. Why warn them the Mastin-wagon has no reasenable arguments instead of looking who blindly follows?

[jammer]

Why warn them the Mastin-wagon has no reasenable arguments instead of looking who blindly follows?

Does this mean that YOU think the Mastin-wagon has no reasonable arguments, or were you just speaking through alex's point-of-view?

Speaking from Alex POV.
tbh, I don't think the Mastin-case is very strong.

Am I not doing that?

You did the opposite, and warned them.

[jammer]

Because I didnt want to lose my broomhead vote... I want the guy to stop lurking or to appear and react. I can't have 2 votes so I stated my opinions in a clear way and I Fosed him. It's good enough for me. He will have to answer. Can anyone doubt that I find him scummy atm?

Voting off lurkers is more important then voting scummy players? Where is your priority?

I skimmed all of those games, which I picked randomly. I do not think my "case" (I wouldn't even call it that) is strong, and I am not shoving it down your throat. You asked me to look into your meta, so I did. Why are you reacting so strongly?

Then why list them after this quote? Seems you where building a case with that quote in front.

Check my meta if you want to build a case on those grounds.

I'm well aware of the setup thanks. Whether Alex was or not, im not so sure. Why would you not let the trap play out?

BM

Do you think the "If you're cop, claim now" trick has a high rate of succes?

[jammer]

Let's talk scenarios here. Say this game wasn't mountainous, and i was asking for a roleclaim. How is that scummy play? In fact, the optimal play would be to subtly hint at him being a cop, and see if he breadcrumbs back. I've done that before, quite recently, in a game that is still ongoing, but might be finished soon.

It is scummy becouse mafia likes to know PR's for obvious reasons.

I'm well aware of the setup thanks. Whether Alex was or not, im not so sure. Why would you not let the trap play out?

BM

Do you think the "If you're cop, claim now" trick has a high rate of succes?

Does the rate of success really matter? Fact is, it could potentially work. So it's worth a shot. No win, no fee.

BM

It would give an insight in how likely it is for you to role'ask' as town or just is a excuse of mafia.

[jammer]

I think Sens is thinking too much in black and white, but he's not completely wrong. Also, BM is a suspect, but his play is more important than the meta here. I find you scummier than him based on your RVS extension post.

RVS=Random vote stage, amirite?
So before my post, where did ever the RVS stop.
camn vote VP
Kairyuu vote alexhans(RV)
DDD vote Kairyuu(RV)
mastin kills RVS, he says?
jammer votes sensfan(RV)
Kairyuu vote jammer(not random)

..., and jammer hasn't assuaged my suspicions. I have no reads on whoever is left.

At this stage, you are suspecting me for extending a RVS that supposedly ended but didn't? Must I take that vote serious?

You suggest we ignore the kill?

Yes, or come with something good. You say not to disregard the kill, yet I've seen nothing usefull on that topic coming from you.

This contradicts itself jammer, no? You answer should be. “No, but nothing useful has come from it yet” or something along those lines. To note, I don’t think the kill should be ignored.

No, it doesn't contradict. If you misunderstood. I say we ignore the kill, if he says the kill is usefull. Then he should show how it is usefull.

Cephrir, DDD, and jammer--are you voting for the person you think has been the scummiest thus far in the game?

Cephrir didn't vote at all, btw. Not really voting for the person I find most scummiest, I more or less forget where I placed the vote.

I am lurkerwagoning, better vote then GIEFF, atm.

Unvote: GIEFF
Vote: Cephrir

[jammer]

Alexhans post 94

#69 GIEFF? Why Mastin?

BM... YOUR #71 is much more scummy than anything you might pretend Mastin is... Hoping on a waggon just like that? Mastin is an active and great player IMO and that's just his style. He was amongst the first people to post and he completely destroyed RVS (First time I've seen this) making this game really interesting from the get go. I think that your move is odd and opportunistic.

OK... WTF? BENMAGE??? YOU ARE CLEARLY JUMPING ON MASTIN WAGGON... IT'S REALLY SCUMMY YES! IM FURIOUS (HENCE THE CAPS). I LIKE MASTIN. HE HELPS TOWN. HE MAY BE SCUM BUT THERE ARE NO LEADS THAT INDICATE THAT RIGHT NOW.

- Mastin's waggon is WEIRD and lacks of sufficient reason.
- Benmage gets a FOS. FoS Benmage

Alexhans post 98

I think Mastin may make the mistake of being too sure of his allignment, meaning that he expects everyone to acknowledge his townieness in an unprovable way.

This is mainly the case if I understand it right? There seemed to be more arguing about it then actual points.

[jammer]

Alex, jammer, GIEFF.

There's a Scum in that group.

Could you explain the reasoning behind it?

And with a scum you mean only one, or atleast one.

[jammer]

@alexhans,
I'm thinking the wall-post war gets more personal then actual bringin points forward.
Is BM your main suspect?

@SF, Second question was becouse GIEFF, Alex and me have some posts directed at each other. And I wondered what you tried to point at with "a scum". Making me think you saw some connection of some kind. You seemed to show you "knew" something. I'm still wondering what...

@VP, DDD, Cephrir What do you think about Alex defending Mastin?

@zach, I gues you post what you exactly think about BM, but if you didn't, a reminder here.

[jammer]

Meh, that is quite clear.
SensFan says he agrees with the reasoning others gave(in the thread), between his last 2 posts. He is sheeping on the new insights on Mastin.

I might have to read those threads and his posting history, but getting voted purely becouse he didn't post some time seems a strange reason.

Eagerly waiting how Mastin responds towards it.

[jammer]

Though I will say right now that I'm not liking what I am seeing from Battle Mage so far.

Tell me, what you don't like about BM.

@GIEFF, where does BM say Mastin is town, quote?
I remember him positing, if Alex is scum, Mastin is town.

[jammer]

Zachrulez, now that you are here, could you anwser?

Though I will say right now that I'm not liking what I am seeing from Battle Mage so far.

Tell me, what you don't like about BM.

100th post!!

[jammer]

Jammer, Kairyuu, Spy, Alex, Camn, and BM: Who are you suspicious of other than the person you are voting?

I don't really like the last followers of the Mastin wagon, DDD & SF. I don't think falling behind after being V/LA and having other games where to catch up is a relieable meta-tell at this point and doesn't deserve that amount of votes while he isn't posting.
I think Alex is thinking along those lines. But was going against the wagon a little to hard. He is more attacking the "intentions" of the wagon followers then defending Mastin himself.

List
GIEFF(repeating questions, asking obvious questions, pushing crapcases)
If I got the time I'm gonna pull a case out why and what I suspect you. I think you want to hear that, not just recent events. But those made you come higher on it.
Cephrir(contradiction in first post+lurking)(what DDD said)
Zach (gut)


Before I forget.

Unvote: Cephrir
Vote: GIEFF

[jammer]

If you gave initial context it wouldn't have been an omgus-vote/seemed scummy/made you look like a bad player. I don't know if the wiki offers a handbook or something, but I'd suggest playing some more newbie games, they may be more fitting.

Definition of OMGUS. Wiki is fine, I learned some definitions. Still plenty of room for inprovement in the wiki, through.

@Camn, what do you think about Gieff's 'cases' on you?
Do you think he is mafia trying to mislynch you or overeager town?

[jammer]

don't really like the last followers of the Mastin wagon, DDD & SF. I don't think falling behind after being V/LA and having other games where to catch up is a relieable meta-tell at this point and doesn't deserve that amount of votes while he isn't posting.
I think Alex is thinking along those lines. But was going against the wagon a little to hard. He is more attacking the "intentions" of the wagon followers then defending Mastin himself.

Way to conveniently get on both sides of the alex issue.

Nah, I agree with Alex stand. Mastin is being overlay voted for lurking and his stand on N0 NK's. In your case just for lurking IIRC. I haven't pressed <caps lock> to defend Alex. But I'm on his site, he is getting (to much) attention with the overreacted defence. What was misplaced, what I said earlier.

@Camn, what do you think about Gieff's 'cases' on you?
Do you think he is mafia trying to mislynch you or overeager town?

Does anyone else see scum trying to spur on a fight here?

How does that question spur a fight. I wanted to know how camn though about GIEFF. And those 2 options came to my mind, see it as how I looked at the situation. And suspected the way camn was thinking about Gieff.

@Gieff, please insert a third option.
1) you are mafia.
2) you are town.
3) ?
Camn already made clear she found your case crap(as did I). I wanted to know what camns opinion was about your alignment. Not a question about her allignment.

I can't give some kind of percentage(if you mean that) of Camn being town. I lean towards town, yes.

Gieff, I am not saying Camn may only respond with these options.
A) overeager town
B) SCUM
Those 2 seem most reasenable to me. That is why I mentioned them. Yea, I am fitting reality into 2 options, that is as black and white as I was looking at it.

Btw, I find it quite funny. How you interact with the wiki.

...., as the all-knowing, scum-catching, infallible wiki puts it).

LOL, no serious?

Ok, caught up and back in this game. MORE LYNCHING OF BM AND MASTIN, PLZ.

Meh, no lynching of BM today imo. And Mastin has to catch up faster then the thread is growing for a time. Getting at L-2 with plain lurking is quite a achievement. I don't feel a Mastin lynch that strong.

[jammer]

How does that question spur a fight.

Well, let's see, camn has already clearly stated how and why she disagrees GIEFF's case. They both agree to let it rest. You come in and say, "hey, gee camn, what do you think of his case? "

She said she disagreed. Haven't heard what she was thinking about gieff intentions. And they didn't let it rest back then, btw.

You are clearly trying to stir an argument that isn't helping discussion to really move ahead at all, meanwhile resting safely on the sidelines. If you have a problem with GIEFF's case, then make your arguments and don't nudge camn into doing it for you.

Yea, an earlier startup post was kinda lost and I didn't feel remaking it. (didn't had anything about that "camn case" yet. But I move on that later.

those 2 options came to my mind, see it as how I looked at the situation. And suspected the way camn was thinking about Gieff

Wait, so you are suspicious of camn? If so, why do both of your presented options presume camn to be town?

I suspect 2 options what I think she thinks(sounds complicated now).
I am not suspecting her of being scum at this point.

And Mastin has to catch up faster then the thread is growing for a time. Getting at L-2 with plain lurking is quite a achievement. I don't feel a Mastin lynch that strong.

How do you feel about him promising this game is the next point of order and proceeding to post elsewhere on the site?

I just read the rest of the thread. Four more Mastin posts than since I last counted.

His totals for the day are now:
*3246 words
*15,862 characters

*facepalm*

@Mastin, can you move on towards the point. Skim the pages, and defend against the points brought up against you. Like to see something usefull tomorrow.

[jammer]

Haven't heard what she was thinking about gieff intentions. And they didn't let it rest back then, btw.

If you didn't here her thoughts on it, then you need to read it again because she explicitly states where she thinks he is coming from. And they did come to a truce about it, btw.

They came to a truce after that, iirc. And no, I haven't read what she though about gieffs intentions, at all. In any case I wouldn't be the only one to miss that she states it, later kmd asks camn the question why gieff is town. When camn anwsers she thinks gieff is town.

I promised some "case" behind my vote.

All of your cases.
Case on me for the "fact of 4 scum" link
Pushing for assuming 4 scum.
Mastin-case link
Basically Mastin having an obsession with ending RVS and clearing himself. And for Mastin having big posts with less usefull info.
Camn-case link
She isn't scumhunting enough. Tries to act like a towny more then scumhunting.
BM-case link
Vote-hopping

I don't have a good feeling looking back at any of these cases. You put more pressure then needed for not the most powerful arguments. Cases all look big, but if I look what is actually inside it seems little.
Case on me is bull, becouse any case on me is bull. I'm speaking from a OMGUS-sight, but it says something you received (and gone) 3 votes for it.
Majority is voting mastin for NK-speculation and lurking, and Mastin having a meta doing so sa mafia. Your case has nothing to do with all of this.
Camn, I miss it completely. There are "minor" points against her, yet she is most suspicious of everyone on your radar.
BM, for changing votes. I can't really see the scum-mind motivation for what he does. How is it different from for example let see, SensFan? Who hopped on your and Mastins wagon twice now?

Further I noticed you repeated some things, just annoying some times.

Let say, you talk loads and loads, yet in comparison with the talking there is less "profit". You invest much time into cases that aren't going to get scum.

FTR, I feel like lynching the over-posters. >3K chars/day or the lurkers <0,5K chars a day(besides spyrex). Post less or post moar.

[jammer]

@gieff
Alexhans wrote somewhere.

I invited:
qwints, StrangerCoug, VPBaltar, molestargazer, Vi, Shanba, Stephoscope, Kairyuu, Zachrulez, Mastin, WhiteCastle, Firestarter, KublaiKhan, Korlash, orangepenguin, RedCoyote, Battousai, camn and DebonairDannyDiPietro.

And yes Gieff, the way I look at it. You direct much attention and pressure towards "weak" cases.

@alexhans, try making a post. Then look at it and delete everything out of it that isn't necessarily needed. Or make some summary at the end of your posts. Just make it possible I have to read less of it.

[jammer]

Mod: See this as a prod request for Cephir, if Alex one doesn't count

No gieff, I don't feel like explaining everything that I think is weak about the cases. I need to refer to arguments you used against Mastin what plainly everyone ignored. And defending Camn and BM. Would be a big post, and I doubt what it would show. It isn't far from just the cases itself. I linked those becouse they seem to show your major points.

It has for a big part to do with pushing people hard with little things. And act like they are obv-scum becouse something unimportant. Like pressing Camn with the "I don't kill you KMD" slip. Little things that you didn't even put in your cases, who represent your big point.

[jammer]

It has for a big part to do with pushing people hard with little things. And act like they are obv-scum becouse something unimportant. Like pressing Camn with the "I don't kill you KMD" slip. Little things that you didn't even put in your cases, who represent your big point.

OK. Don't you think Battle Mage did the same thing in Post 113, to an even greater extent? It looks to me like you are focusing on me mostly because YOU were the first target of my hard-pushing with "little things," even though this was way back on page 2. Pushing hard is my playstyle.

Nah, he dicected Alex post and refered back to most lines. He mentions and comments little things. But isn't pushing him on small points. More a startup for a fluffy-wall-war.
Relooking his case lost power becouse of this "fluff", you couldn't find the point in it. You pressure with cases without a solid point inside, and with pressure get attention. The basis for wanting to lynch Alex, the overreaction on Mastin. Is more solid then any of your cases.
I'm not voting you for a page2 case on me. Otherwise my vote would never left you. Anyway, can you link me to a game where you're town and one where you're scum?

Is English a second language to you, jammer? Also, I have no clue who the "you" is in that mess.

Yes, and the "you(r)" is pointing at gieff. Is it that hard to read.

People who need to stop commenting altogether for the remainder of the day unless it is to vote one of the above:
GIEFF and Camn and Kmd and possibly jammer

According to gieffs table, all of them mentioned before me got atleast double posting rates compared to me. And I've got less posts less then you have, slightly more characters. I will try posting as less (I think) is needed, anyway. When this game adds a extra page, my other game got an extra post. This game is out of balance.

@DDD, *rolling magic carpet*
Who is the top 3 on your scumlist?

[jammer]

Haha yeah, I did mean camn is scum. My bad.

Freudian slip, how would a town-gieff call Camn town if he is suspecting her?
(j/k)

Hmkai,

Mod: Prod Mastin.

Unvote: Gieff
Vote: Mastin

@Alex, who are your top3 scum? In less then 200 words.

[jammer]

As a parody on your scumhunting, as many of your hunting is based upon little (textbook) slips like that and pursued. Slightly to see your possible respond as well, if you would ignore it completely and agree the slip is useless you would measure yourself different then the ones you suspect and that would be seen scummy in my eyes.
Besides that I don't think the slip on itself is very strong. But I remind it.

[jammer]

I'd rather wait and make a more educated decision. What you neglect to note, is that one of us will be NKed tonight. They wont have a chance to get their thoughts down again, so i think it's kinda a moral thing as well that you should let everyone finish their piece. I'd like to sort my thoughts on VP Baltar out, before he NKs me.

BM

Go ahead, I'd really like to see why you voted VP in the first place. Didn't expect to get mastin at L-2 shortly after I voted him. Also can't see how Mastin is more "helpful" for town then Alex. Alex is atleast posting, altrough a lot of fluff.

Unvote

[jammer]

This camn wagon is the worst wagon I've ever seen.

If camn is lynched today, I will consider everyone off the wagon to be confirmed for the rest of the game, since there's no way that many Town will have voted her.

Why would you say, that a Camn-wagon is a bad wagon?
When at that same time you are so confident, there is no way 6 town will vote Camn anyway? Why warn scum?

VP's posts havent filled me with confidence in his smarts, but he's probs town, after reading some of his other games. Which is a shame. lol

Ooi, what do you think of Alex atm?

BM

Trying to read him in iso. Meh, what am I trying.
Speaking in technical terms. He seems to have a high (info)/analysis ratio. He supports some (weak) cases on the sideline. After relooking his posts, I can see that as scum trying to look like he's hunting for scum. I'll like to have Mastin and Cephir posting before I will consider supporting a lynch of Alex.

As for Battle Mage and Mastin: yea, I think they're town at this juncture. Further evidence could change it. I think they are both perfectly capable of faking concern but I do not think they have done so in this particular instance.

15 hours later:

After looking at Mastin's profile and the fact he has posted almost as much in other games as he has in this game total AND did not respond to the prod...

Unvote, Vote: Mastin

Good thing you were so wishy-washy 15 hours before your vote, or people would be liable to think that you're just voting whomever serves you best, instead of voting people whom you think are scum.

When can we expect your reversal on BattleMage?

As for Battle Mage and Mastin: yea, I think they're town

at this juncture

. Further evidence could change it. I think they are both perfectly capable of faking concern but I do not think they have done so

in this particular instance

.

I AM going to do a review of Mastin as a function of activity on the site in actual games and if he's actively avoiding this one I'll throw my vote that way.

@Gieff, selective quoting, ftl.

^

The above post is so ridiculously town that it hurts.

Good lord. Sure.

Unvote, Vote Camn

Bam. Its done.

I'm now done with today.

Vote: Spyrex

Summary,
SF-Why give scum a warning for a non-happening lynch?
BM-Alex is scummy as hell.
Mastin-Should post something usefull.
Cephir-Same.
Alex-Post thoughs about the other players.
Camn-Play now, if you suspect benmage then vote him instead of giving your vote to him... The AtE isn't helping you, or town in any case.
Gieff-I keep my eye on you.
Spyrex-Could you explain that vote in detail?

[jammer]

FRIENDS, ENEMIES, LURKERS- PUT DOWN YOUR LYNCH-ROPE AND READ THIS POST. THEN JOIN ME IN RUNNING UP JAMMER. (resized)

Interesting, didn't expect this one.

I state I find Alex scummy, and later stated that again
Is it me, or are the caps your case?

[jammer]

Haha, dont make me laugh bro.

Your first point can be summed up with "beating around the bush". You weren't at all confident in your convictions. Translation was, you were LEANING scum on him, but you made it clear that you didnt want him lynched today.

In the same post, you make your second point-which was meant to be a summary of the first. You declare Alex to be "scummy as hell".

The "as hell" part is kind of misplaced. Didn't really want to lynch him before any inactive players weight in and post for a time. I have not said I don't want to lynch him at all.

[jammer]

At this point I would like a further explanation from Jammer about why he unvoted Mastin in post 750.

I voted him together with the prod as some kind of post or die. I unvoted mainly becouse I didn't want to lynch Mastin at once before he could even respond to the last prod.
Then he posted he was having computer trouble and fetch up tomorrow or something....? <.<

Did you read my post on Jammer? How would you explain away that glaring inconsistency? And what is your stance towards Alex again?

Glaring inconsistency…maybe I am reading wrong. He states why Alex is scummy, and tosses I suppose you into who he feels is scummy overall.

Nah, BM asked me what I though about Alex. It wasn't to call him scummy, putted him there as the question asker.

**I like to who SensFan and Jammer would of liked to see lynched today. Neither have voted for sometime.

SF waits till Mastin is at L-1, then hammers instantly. I thought that was clear?

For me, Gieff, Mastin, Alex and possibly spyrex for that reflex vote on Camn.

But like to hear something from Cephir. I don't like a lurker getting a free-pass like that, majority of his posts only exist out of "reads up later", "prodded posting tomorrow". This is one tomorrow of them. iiirc
So I wait atleast till Cephir posts something, before I agree and vote Mastin to be lynched, k.? In that time Mastin would post as well, according to last post. So I'm eagerly waiting with voting Mastin till atleast one of those 2 are posting.

[jammer]

SF waits till Mastin is at L-1, then hammers instantly. I thought that was clear?

What the fuck are you talking about?
When have I ever said I wanted to hammer Mastin?

Shortly, why I was assuming it.

You want Mastin lynched the way you post referring to Mastin. So you think he is scum. But you didn't vote yet.

That with this,

Based on past experience, it may be a good idea to consider L-2 as L-1 in this game. Sens-scum may try to use his "I WILL QUICKHAMMER ANYBODY" meta to get away with a scum-hammer, or a misguided town-hammer.

If I think someone is Scum, and they are at L-1, absolutely I will hammer. I expect the same of everyone else in this game.

[jammer]

SF waits till Mastin is at L-1, then hammers instantly. I thought that was clear?

I thought mastin was sitting L-1 before…

As far I remember for a short moment, and that was when SF brought Mastin on L-1 and unvoted at once becouse it was L-1.

[jammer]

@GIEFF, out of pure interest, how do you make those tables and voting patterns?

This is pretty much my lynching list. I think this is what some people asked for different reasons.
Mastin
Gieff
Alexhans

bcc, Cephrir and Mastin. Atleast one of them will post something of use in the meantime, won't they? I give them time to say something, so I'm not voting yet.

[jammer]

Oh right, SpyreX. I honestly miss why he would even think about following "Capt. Condescending"s vote on Camn.

But just seems some kind of annoyance with Gieff and a joke-vote on Camn, or something.

Not enough to be lynching him.

Unvote: SpyreX

btw, according to my timezone Mastin posted in 4 other games today. (alt of him included)

[jammer]

I vote when the lurkers say something.

[jammer]

@jammer-if someone is topping your scumlist, why are you voting someone who is not even on it? That makes no sense. Why do you have to wait for mastin to say something before you vote him, especially when it is likely he will be commenting about page 5 when he comes back?

I voted Spyrex becouse his vote on Camn was completely misplaced and I wanted to see his response.

And I am not voting right now to lay down the last bricks for a Mastin lynch, becouse I like to let Cephrir and bcc weight in, and possibly Mastin if he manages to find the thread when not prodded.

@Alex, the "as hell" was misplaced. But yes, I find you scummy. Might have to do with your playing style. I'll do some meta-read when I've got the time, and lay down why you're scummy.

But still, I can understand your NutsOcaps, but you don't like lurkers at all, amirite?
Why are you every time so fighting against a Mastin lynch?
When Mastin was at L-1 you still felt the need to say you where heavy against the lynch. When he lurked for like 2 weeks now?

[jammer]

@Zach, I think the only thing Gieff meta data said was, Cephrir says little regardless of allignment. Just a little more as town...
Calling it a towntell for only posting "prodded posting tomorrow"?

FTR: Zach, I will vote Mastin today, or Mastin must do a epic change of turns. But atleast Cephrir and bcc should post or be replaced after they had a prod. And I await that.

[jammer]

I don't intend to replace people without their consent unless they disappear completely.

Yaw isn't going to replace someone just on request.

So my suggestion is, everyone be silent unless you have something usefull to make it easier catching up. Let them pick up the prods and post in thread or they let themselfs be replaced. I will be voting Mastin after they both(ceph and bcc) posted something.

[jammer]

Reminds me,

@Yaw, how much time do you give players to pick up a prod. Before you replace them?

[jammer]

^^ trying to draw the attention elsewhere? Seems to work, moves down to 3 posts for your second day of posting. You than have a day where you post once. Some days you skip, the max I’m re-seeing for a bit is 3 posts. Trying to stay a bit off radar are we?

You accuse me of lurking....
Can anyone second that?

Anyway, I missed your conclusion. Who is scum?


@Spyrex, the "lurkers must post"comment was not reffering to you. I actually unvoted you a few posts before I said that.

[jammer]

Lurkinesss..not necessarily, but being less active when pressured..putting the pressure elswhere,sure...posting without contributing/scum-hunting...ok.

I'm not necessarily lurking, ok.
Less active when pressured?
Gieff presured me the first day... When I had 8 posts, that was also before I became "less active"?(contradiction much)
Putting pressure elsewhere?, was that this?

I don’t know about this next post:

You pull conclusions far to soon for my opinion. If the number of scums I called was 3 you where ready to vote me off without any though at all.
(and yes, sorry I messed up some quote tags)

@Zach, I'm surprised that makes you feel save in calling me town.
Would you have voted me if I stated that there where 3 mafia?

@camn, why ask specificly VP's opinion about hascow, earlier?

@Kairyuu, What do you think about the opposing of the meta N0 kill from SensFan. While he is suspected becouse of this by you and Mastin.(top-suspect)

^^ trying to draw the attention elsewhere? Seems to work, moves down to 3 posts for your second day of posting. You than have a day where you post once. Some days you skip, the max I’m re-seeing for a bit is 3 posts. Trying to stay a bit off radar are we?

When I asked those questions, gieff already unvoted me. Exactly what pressure did you mean?

Posting without contributing?
You mean I have mainly fluff in the "few" posts I have?
I do?

The overall conclusion was never gotten to as i didn't even get to all the iso's I had wanted to. This is just some personal iso insight and for things to look at and note connections.

Ah, they give connections.
Like me with Zach or BM or KMD or SF. 2 of them voted me at some point, a third atleast suspected me?

Also, my suspectlist is pretty the same, altrough benmage might take Mastins spot. Don't like the faulty analysis, of particulair me...

Benmage, another time, what players do you suspect most?

[jammer]

Wow..ok let's not get caught up into semantics. VP and jammer/alex butted heads a lot. I don't think it farfetched to believe them to be on opposite sides. I.E. since VP is town, i think it highly likely that jammer or alex is scum.

Well, VP actually never voted me, or listed me as scum. The opposite is true with you. If I am on a opposite site of VP, what does that make you with this logic?
(more then highly likely scum.)

Vote: Benmage

4th on wagon, woohoo.

As I am listed as your main suspect. Could you explain briefly how you got this conclusion?
Can you also explain why you lost interest in gieff as a lynch suddenly?

[jammer]

Sigh. Benmage, I'd gues you know a AtE isn't going to help. So stop doing it.

I'd like if you made a case on me, confincing enough that I would selfvote.


Zach, Gieff, SF:
Is your main reason you're all vote benmage, him preparing walls of texts in the night? Or are there other motives?

[jammer]

@benmage

Small question, why didn't you iso, zach?

He got more posts then the others you iso'd. But most posts of Zach are only one-liners. Shouldn't cost more time then the others. Any particulair reason you iso'd (scumpartner) SF and not Zach?

If I didn't state my reason before, I am basically voting you for bad arguments you use to put suspicion on me.

[jammer]

I'd like if you made a case on me, confincing enough that I would selfvote.

When in the history of cases in this game has anyone convinced someone so much that they’re scum. That they’ve been playing such a scummy game and have been so obviously scum the whole game that the case is so strong that the person is convinced enough to selfvote. That they'll forgo their own pm from the mod and believe the case. I don’t give a fuck, no case is going to convince me to self vote if i'm town. Yeah maybe anger and frustration as shown today….but a case, geeze. This is such a scum tell its ridiculous. After gieff today its you tomorrow jammer. So you better kill me tonight, cuz I’ll get the third one soon enough.

Why are you so focussed on a case where I would selfvote, ofcource I wouldn't selfvote. I want to see a case on me, and after all these pages I've yet got to hear an explaination why I am (was) at top of the suspicion list.


Summary last pages.
44, benmage puts a analysis of players forward.(VP, jammer, SF)
45, wagon on benmage, reaches L-2(due to selfvote)
benmage lynch preference, jammer, SF, Alexhans. And votes SF after SF votes benmage.
SF, Zach, GIEFF, jammer are on the wagon.
Reason SF, Zach = sane town doesn't prepare a wall of text in the night.
Reason Gieff = later states he was testing benmage reaction on the wagon.
Reason jammer = call it omgus, putting me on top of suspect list for what?
And I commented a little on my iso.
46, 47, fluff,
benmage AtE (vote me and lose 2 townys)
States a scum wouldn't do what he posted at start of day.
48, benmage unvotes self
BattleM comes in and starts defending BenM.
49, benmage anwsers why he doesn't suspect gieff anymore.(frustration with gieff derailing the wagon and proving a point)
Zach votes gieff
BattleM main-suspects are Zach and jammer.
BattleM voted gieff(for not straight explaining why he voted benmage)
50, BattleM votes Zach(for being anxious with ben willing to selfhammering when he though he was scum) and unvotes later
51,
BattleM votes Cephrir
benM votes Cephrir
whole discussion about what lurker should be voted.
Also whole yes/no convo between gieff and benM, was also slightly on the earlier pages. But seems to grow a little with every page.
52, lurker-lynch-idea gets continued.
53, DDD votes Cephrir
Zach votes BCC
Kmd4390 votes gieff
gieff votes bcc
Benmage Cephrir

I think this gives big lines, but I've got to admit I was skimming partly. Don't blame me if it misses anything big.

Also, DDD got a point. If the extreme active players can keep it a little down. The ones that post less will be posting more.

Wagoning lurker.

Unvote: Benmage
Vote: BCC

[jammer]

I honestly can't care less what lurker is being voted. Let make BattleMage happy.

Unvote: BCC
Vote: Cephrir

[jammer]

Yeah i'll slow it down, me and Gieff being over 200 posts with 4 players not even hitting 50, isn't good for business...can we decide on one lurker please

I have 51 posts(now 52), not part of the lurkers, er...

jammer: Why did you unvote Benmage?

Is it just a coincidence you did so soon after I did?

1) Benmage Wagon broke down.
2) I agree with lurkers must talk or die.
3) It is a coincidence I did it so soon after you. I generally disagree with you.

@Alex
Also, if you didn't knew my suspicions before, Alex.

Let see, my suspect list is currently. Not an specific order.
Gieff, for overall weak cases with much presure and some extent misrepping.
Alex, generally for a case of SF and BM, that where both rather weak. (don't like them)
Benmage, for some "little" things day 1, listing me top-suspect with nothing.(yes, omgus)

I don't suspect BattleMage, you can't say he is extremely consistant, but I haven't found him scummy. Alex, could you put a case forward on battlemage?(as short as possible)

And with Zach, there was something in D1 that I didn't like with Zach. I'm gonna check what was off there.

Also,
@Zach, BM wasn't serious he stated later, iirc. Might be helpful to note there.

@BM
You call Alex a newb, he finished several games and iirc correct he is an IC. I can't really see that as new.

[jammer]

You strike me as still upset that I attacked you on page 2. Please, get over it. It was page 2, and there was nothing else to go on.

No. I am not suspecting you becouse you attacked me on page 2.

Which do you think is better, jammer - cases you think are weak, or no cases at all?

It isn't that the cases are weak. It is the point you are pushing and make the cases look way more stronger then they actual are. I haven't pushed you hard on it, becouse a few things you do throw me off, mainly in the sence of "why would scum do that?".
If I start asking others to vote for you, you can be worried.

That concludes me, I'm starting to relook and iso a few players. My play has been far to passive for my own liking.

Also,
@Zach, BM wasn't serious he stated later, iirc. Might be helpful to note there

Show me where and I'll take it into consideration.

I can't find anything. But I remember it was mentioned. I think you can better ask BM himself.

jammer: Why did you unvote Benmage?

1) Benmage Wagon broke down.

Were you hoping to lynch Benmage with your vote for him? Is his scumminess dependent on the number of players voting for him? What do you think about Benmage now?

Meh, I wasn't actually thinking that much forward;
No, I asked him about the analysis, he responded in a few points why I was scummy, I said why those points are really weak. And shortly after that puts me as lynch priority with a reason me "butting heads" with VP, I found that a rather weak reasoning so I voted him;
I skimmed benmage iso, he seems less scummy then I remembered him....

[jammer]

@Zach, could you give a top3 suspects?

[jammer]

Interesting, Zach you're rising on my scumlist.
I am actually starting to understand BM's accusions on you. Post 1455 is a nice example.

@the lurker part, I don't think you can request prods until they have around 48 hours without posting.

[jammer]

You where poking BM with a argument you just stole from GIEFF.

[jammer]

By the way, why is what Battlemage thinks so important to you?

In your vote of Cephrir, you stated that you voted him to make Battlemage happy.

Sigh, no I don't care if it makes BM happy. No, I don't care what lurker is voted. Want me to make you happy with hopping back?

You where poking BM with a argument you just stole from GIEFF.

You are poking Zach with an argument you just stole from BM.

Uhuh, simular. I mentioned BM before for a reason.

And actually, ZACH said it before I did.

That even stops it from being BM's argument(not stolen from gieff, if zach said it first). I know he said it earlier, I felt you started it through. It just strikes why he felt stating multiple times he didn't like BM selectiveness.

And I can't say you prefering bcc over Cephrir has been explained confincing enough. In my eyes you push harder for lynching bcc then BM is pushing Cephrir. Why is there such a massive point raisen with lynching one lurker over the other?
Also just to pull the wifom out, BM would defend lurker-scum buddy to wagon another useless lurker, why? Delay the inevitable lynch of a lurker?

For benefit of discussion

Your case, must I even comment?

This is simple.

Cephrir's play does not fit her play as town or as scum. She has NEVER lurked this much before. In past games, she contributes less as town than as scum, so I'm inclined to think that NO participation is more a town-tell than a scum-tell, although not strong either way.

But blackcatcontract, on the other hand, hasn't posted in this thread (or on site) for 10 days. The fact that he responded to Yaw means that he IS coming back to the site, but without posting anywhere. I don't know why a townie would do this. If there aren't other games bringing bcc back, it has to be this one, and if it's THIS game bringing him back to the site, why hasn't he posted in it for the last 10 days?

Bcc is more scum then Cephrir, becouse bcc isn't active at the site at all. While Cephrir does post in other games.

BM's case, I've seen Freelancer. First Cephrir is rather active, in iso 3 posts in a row of Cephrir that explain the sudden lurking pretty good Oct 23, Jan 03, Feb 02. As far I can understand the game(really complicated at first sight ), those posts are after the recruitment. I'm actually confused how that is possible. Means they've got no prods at all there. But we can agree we call that lurking?

[jammer]

I'm not going to end discussion and quickhammer.
I meant that as in days dragging on and on without anyone having the balls to hammer.

Unvote, Vote: Cephir

Haven't read a post since my last post.

See you all tomorrow.

Huh?


Also, bcc it's time you post something.

Vote: blackcatcontract

[jammer]

it is REALLY damn lame that TWO townies lurked so horribly that they both got policy-lynched. I'm pissed as shit about it, and will never play a game with these two idiots again. It shows a lack of respect, and 60 fucking pages might as well be wasted because they couldn't be bothered post ONCE in a week. Ridiculous. Screw you both.

Mastin was a policy-lynch to you?

[jammer]

Lol paranoia about strong players not being NKed is not a new thing for me. Again, i cant reference this, but you could always ask Yos. xD
It's a BM-towntell.

Selfclearing?

Comrades:

If you feel that Gieff is town, are you surprised that he is still alive?

Honestly, I'm wondering why you're still live, anyone else?

Because you used your absence from a Cephrir-lynch as a defense.

He was in favour of lynching Cephrir, not in favour of a quicklynch, Yes?

The thing that seems off with BM is the sudden change in opinion about gieff.
obv. Town->scum

@Everyone: Read Battle Mage in ISO so you can understand why you need to vote him. Then do it, please. He has been the Prince of Bullshit all game long. To that we can add the Mayor Fencesitter title.

He posted a whole load. Read that all?
If I get the case,
1) It is some votehopping. (About that, GIEFF got a up to date vote- thingy, or did you do that recently?)
2) GIEFF alligment opinion. scum->town->scum, and inconsistant with suspicions overall. (point taken, the changing opinion about gieff is weird.
3) Voting both lynch targets, but not voting them in the end. (He supported a Cephrir lynch, about Mastin(also 4) I want to find out in what extent he was "defending" him)
4) Calling Mastin obv. town when Mastin he was being lynched? (Missed that. =/ I'm going to look for that.)
5) Being in favour for one lurker over the other one. (What about GIEFF wanting to lynch bcc instead of Cephrir)

Also, I did partly skim this. Not another wall-O-text.
I read more tomorrow.

[jammer]

As everyone makes lists.

Scum
GIEFF
Alex
Benmage

Neutral
DDD
Zach
Kmd4390

Town
Battle Mage
Spyrex

w/e
SF, mixed feelings.
bcc, lurker.

Also, calling a

possible

limited access next few days. As I'm not sure how much free time I'd have left over by then.

[jammer]

Jammer said something about possible V/La in his last post =/.

Yea, came out bigger then expected. Just posting, when others start calling for a prodd must seem bad.

I will be posting not a long time from this one.

[jammer]

I though I had the time for only this...

@benmage, You being scum was most a feeling, partly had to do with the reaction to Camn suspicions. You're far far away from the other 2 in any way.

@gieff Also, spyrex posts just seemed town to me? Could you just make a case on spyrex if you suspect him?
And Camn looked town to me.
I switched votes becouse I didn't care much what lurker would be going down. And I explained that day self why Cephrir was a better lynch.
kmd VC analysis is BM voting none of the both lynches.

Looking at overall responses cbb seems to be completely left, and I tend to lose grip on this game.

Unvote

Also, calling limited access for next week.

As in posts will get small and unreguraly.

[jammer]

Can I see the case or a link to the case on battlemage?

[jammer]

I will make it a nice, formatted, numbered lists, with links to everything, and I will think up a catchy slogan for my case that will stick in the jurors' minds.

Yay, like to see that.

The whole SpyreX-GIEFF exchange looks bad for SpyreX who seems to be wearing a bmlindfold.

Really?

[jammer]

@gieff Also, spyrex posts just seemed town to me? Could you just make a case on spyrex if you suspect him?

No. This isn't about me thinking spyrex is scum, this is about you thinking he is town.

You've said hardly anything about spyrex all game. You threw a quick, weird, vote on him for his camn vote, and have said basically nothing else. You don't have a null read, you have a town read. So please explain what exactly about spyrex's posts strike you as town.

This slipped through the cracks, jammer. Please respond.

He is concise, and made sense.

@Camn, what do you think about Gieff's 'cases' on you?
Do you think he is mafia trying to mislynch you or overeager town?

This looked scummy to me when jammer posted it, as he was assuming camn was town. Now that we know camn is town, it looks even scummier. Many of those who thought camn was town thought so for meta reasons. But jammer had no meta reasons at all.

jammer - why did you have a town-read on camn? And why do you have a town-read on spyrex?

Also, why do you have a scum-read on alex?

I didn't like your reponse to this, either. Saying "camn looked town to me" isn't enough. Others used meta to make that determination, but you did not. So what DID you use?

[/quote]
Gut-feeling, I can't say I was very sure. Might take into mind, I looked from the case you had on Camn at that time. And I looked at you as scum or overeager town. Doesn't say anything about Camn's allignment necessarily. Did not see Camn as obv town.

@Battlemage, D1 you voted Alexhans, then changed towards others. You gave as reason back then, there is no support for a Alexhans lynch.
Most of the others you voted wheren't close to being lynched as well. Why not keep the vote on your main-suspect instead of changing votes towards (mainly) lesser suspects?

I find it strange zach and gieff seemed to find Vi scummy for predecessors not posting.
Zach, how is flaking out a scumtell?

[jammer]

@jammer you're not voting. whose summiest for you/who do you want to see lynched?

Lynch preference.
Gieff
DDD
Alex/Zach

@DDD, getting out of Vi posts, you posted in other games while not in this one. Is there any particulair reason this game doesn't get the same attention as others?

That doesn't translate into me and BM setting him up for a mislynch because a.) I dont know his alignment so how the hell could I be "mislynching" him b.) I'm not scum and thusly not scum with BM so how can this be some kind of collusion to push days ahead a mislynch through?

Both assume you're town...(I'm town so the argument I'm scum is wrong)

Not to mention how retarded it would be to get on this train NOW if I was going to push for his mislynch LATER.

You where not on the wagon when you made the statements, but iirc when gieff said you where setting up a mislynch.

@Spyrex, you're telling gieff should've been nightkilled for being active and trying to find scum. As last kill we've got Camn, what confinces you they will be killing the players that are putting a lot of efford into scumhunting next?
Don't you think gieff will continue to live if town, with these suspicions?

[jammer]

And I'm saying if this was some great machination why would I spring it for "down the road" instead of calling it out then.

What do you mean?(I'm not the quickest)

[jammer]

Why I had GIEFF as a lynch candidate. I do not like the usefull/useless amount. To me seemed he was posting loads to seem town, instead of actually finding scum with any of it.

Why, alexhans as candidate. Some little things, call that gut. Iĺl do a meta-read on you before I even plan voting you, becouse it might be playing style. And yes it is in order. And I think I like zach lynched over you.

I find Battlemage recent flip-flopping strange to say the least. Calling gieff mafia and town, wants to vote kmd but decides not to becouse gieff case confinces him kmd is not mafia? Then continues to vote the ¨scummy¨ person at the wagon of kmd.

@battlemage, what made you think kmd was scum in the first place? Before you saw Gieffs case.

Will be posting more in following days.

[jammer]

To me seemed he was posting loads to seem town, instead of actually finding scum with any of it.

That is ridiculous. We haven't once lynched my preferred lynch-target. How do you know if I'm catching scum or not?

Er, your preferred lynch candidates (seem to) change quickly. At some point Mastin was a preferred lynch candidate, he just was not at deadline.

Why I had GIEFF as a lynch candidate. I do not like the usefull/useless amount. To me seemed he was posting loads to seem town, instead of actually finding scum with any of it.

Ejemplos, por favor

Meh, call me inconsistant or w/e. The more I think about it, could be a general disagreement with gieff opinions. For one thing the responses to his cases are usefull.


I am liking a SF or DDD lynch more at this moment.

[jammer]

Forgive me, DDD...

I'll consider it.

Unvote; Vote: KMD

What the Senators' fan said.

I do not like this bandwagoning.

DDD mentions KMD even less... He's only in a 50-50 % pool of 4 people in wich 2 are supposedly scum (with jammer, SpyreX and BCC)

Seems like decent enough odds to me. Couple that with GIEFF's 2048 and add that to the very basic bandwagon = more information hypothesis and it looks and feels like a solid vote to me.

I do not agree with this reasoning at all. Rather weak to put anyone that close to a lynch.

It bothers me that SpyreX is doing his best to carve out a difference between myself and Sens, seems like he’s digging for whatever extremely weak justification he can find to support my lynch and not that of Sens. If we could actually get the SpyreX lynch that I’d like and he flips scum I’d have to re-evaluate my stance on Sens.

How is it scummy to look for a difference between 2 players who ¨lurk¨? You find yourself completely equal to SF?

Furthermore, such analysis only looks at whether a lynch is easy, not whether it's good. I'm much more concerned with someone pushing for bad lynches then someone who has or accepts good reasoning as a reason for their vote.

Finally, it also only looks at whether a lynch is easy, not whether it's consistent with the player's gameplay. Again, another issue which I generally believe to be a more pressing concern.

1) I find going for easy lynches somewhat scummy.
2) I can not really say being consistant is a ¨towntell¨.
3) Going for bad lynches is scummy indeed, agreed.(I found the lynch you followed bad).

Vote: DDD

[jammer]

jammer, why are you focusing on DDD's "bandwagoning" L-2 vote, but completely ignoring Spyrex's L-1 vote?

I do not like both votes, but while I got mixed feelings on spyrex for his actions overall(that vote included). I do not see any townish actions with DDD, I do not like the lurking and the sheeping. And I see his actions more something scum would do.

[jammer]

Ugh,
Firstly I already said I was adding the lurking and the easy wagoning overall as extra tells. Makes it a higher count of tells. I am not denying the L-1 vote on KMD from spyrex looks scummy.
Secondly, if my ¨town-tell¨ suddenly works for spyrex and DDD. Well ok, take a look in iso, who could possibly have meant more for town? Sure has to do with lurking of DDD, but even then I find the posts of DDD less helpfull. There does stand something, but meh.

Also the point from alexhans somewhere, about questioning players that you do not suspect. Questioning players you do not suspect at all is rather pointless.

[jammer]

What other scum-tells are there besides these two "extra" tells?

Well those are the main ones I thought about when I voted. Together that I do not get any sense of town from DDD. I go and post a (bigger) case on DDD later.

Are you saying don't suspect Spyrex at all, and this is why you aren't questioning him?

Well not suspecting at all is a big word, but yea I did not question spyrex much for that reason. Another point why I am not questioning spyrex at all now is you are already busy doing it, and I do have nothing to add.

And jammer, note that as soon as Spy was called out on his KMD vote (by Vi in Post 2100, he quickly unvoted, and didn't come back to the thread for four days.

I do, note that DDD simply unvoted and voted Battlemage while he had a chance to run off the wagon without suspicion.

jammer, what happened to your SensFan suspicion?

Still there, I appriciate DDD more as a lynch then SF. Particially has to do with recent AtEs SF keeps throwing out. :S

@Jammer:

Also the point from alexhans somewhere, about questioning players that you do not suspect. Questioning players you do not suspect at all is rather pointless.

riiiight... How do you suspect someone in the first place then? By lurking and letting others speak? Also, once you have a town read you will not question a person again?

We got close to 100 pages to get suspects from. So with suspects you can question them. I am not talking about the RVS-stage or anything. And yes, I try to question scummy actions that I spot and are not bequestioned by others. And I have the feeling I miss these due to a overloaded activity thread. I read, but there is a lot of text to pick the ¨goodies¨out. :/

Why are you ignoring me? Why, if you think I'm scum, don't you ask me questions?

You post enough, I think some questions where asked earlier. Somehow nothing grabbed my attention.

The current events make me take jammer from the town list to a neutral list because he is being EXTREMELY mild for my taste and doesn't give convincing reasons.

lul, how did I even reach that list?

That felt useless..

@SF, out of spyrex and DDD, who would you dayvig at this moment?
Did you had those kind of (personal) issues with other players in a game?

[jammer]

What other scum-tells are there besides these two "extra" tells?

Well those are the main ones I thought about when I voted. Together that I do not get any sense of town from DDD. I go and post a (bigger) case on DDD later.

Oh. So there ARE no other tells. So please, explain this:

Ugh,
Firstly I already said I was adding the lurking and the easy wagoning overall as

extra tells

. Makes it

a higher count of tells

.

Because from where I'm sitting, it looks a lot like jammer-scum fabricating reasons for voting for DDD, trying to make it look like he has more reasons than he really does.

So I read this, and have no clue what you even mean...

Also, you were unable to find an instance of DDD not being "concise and making sense." Which is your only town-tell for spyrex.

Uh, do you want me to make a town-case on spyrex? Becouse that is the last thing I will be doing. In the first few days he simply seemed town to me, somewhat less the latter time. You might find DDD as consise as spyrex I actually got to disagree with it if I read back. He makes short posts but not consise et all.

I have not been impressed with jammer's play lately, either.

/care

Good gravy what is with all the reactionary voting?

Agreed, can anyone go on someone they truly suspect?

DDD is unrepentantly apathetic about the game and likes voting on late on wagons but everyone says he's like this normally and to a degree he's a sympathetic figure.

He is like this normally? If everyone says that, how´d I miss that.

If it is true that Vi-scum means a 100% chance of a town-loss (which isn't necessarily true), then the only correct way to proceed with the game is assuming Vi-town.

I seem to have missed something?

Last, there's jammer the absent who says vaguely fluffy things and goes with the flow but because there are more pressing people to lynch he gets passed on. And whoever I've forgotten has their own mixed signals that etc.

The absent?

[jammer]

@Gieff, the lack of a bigger case was loss of a startup and being lazy afterwards.
I am applying the same reasoning for spyrex and DDD. But I am already getting where this is going, you need proof, then you want me to post why spyrex is town and DDD is not in comparison.

@Vi, yes I want to lynch DDD, his play in general do not strike me as town(following any easy wagon, careless, info>analysis. And certain bits as scum like the KMD speedup vote, obvious lurking with getting more active (in the past) if he gets suspected.

And honestly I do not got a alternative ready. As I said before SF AtE makes me believe he is town. Alex gives me mixed feelings. Benmage is putting me as main suspect without putting points forward. And many other got their pros and bads.

[jammer]

No. You have already explained why you think Spyrex is town. Yet you have not shown why you are not applying these same towntells to DDD.

No, the lack of a bigger case was you pretending to have these extra reasons, but when pressed, revealing you did not.

1) If you can not comprehend the difference between DDD and spyrex, ...

Meh. Ok, I will do a little try to explain. As you will not stop going on and on about it. Do these quotes make anything clear? I do not see a point in this sidetracking, btw.

Quick and dirty view of the camn/GIEFF kerfuffle. I agree that camn really hasn't been doing any scumhunting. However, both camn and kmd have suggested that's consistent with her town meta so while it bothers me I'm not convinced a strong tell. Furthermore, GIEFF keeps trying to drive home the idea that defensiveness is a scumtell and I completely disagree with that idea. Players of either alignment get defensive when attacked; granted they don't usually get as emotional as camn did but I'd bank on that being personality more than alignment.

I guess I haven't addressed it directly. Allow me to do so now:

1.) I have not gotten the "I AM SOO TOWN GUYS" feel from camn at all.
--- If this is a crux, how does Mastin measure up?

2.) The rest of it is up to camn to tear apart but its paper-thin.

Anyways, I think I side with Sens/BM on this latest brouhaha. I see no benefit to scum to ask for a claim at that point. Since I'm a firm believer in scum generally playing conservatively even forgetful scum aren't going to ask for a claim in that situation. So I'm inclined to believe his crappy trap explanation.

1.) Pretty sure BM is town. This shouldn't be a surprise. The pro/con scum motivation for pulling the "great trap" ESPECIALLY in a mountainous setup makes me go woah.

2) I did not have a bigger case, I wanted to get one to elaborate. But I did not couse I am extremely lazy, so that makes the points invalid? It makes me scummy to not make a full case?

Vi, we should probably vote, it looks bad not to. Who should we bandwagon? If we both do it together, we can get either DDD or BM to L-1. Your call.

So, basically camn gave her vote to benmage. And now is gieff giving the vote to Vi. Are you that certain Vi is town?

[jammer]

jammer, I don't know what those quotes from Spy and DDD are meant to illustrate. Can you explain? If anything, it looks like you are saying their play has been similar, but this doesn't explain why you are focusing so much more on DDD than on Spyrex.

For once spyrex uses less chars for the same. As second I feel DDD is more like spinning around the point.

You led us to believe you had a bigger case when you said:

Firstly I already said I was adding the lurking and the easy wagoning overall as extra tells. Makes it a higher count of tells.

Does anyone else think this is wildly scummy? Claiming to have additional tells when there really are none to make your case appear stronger than it really is?

So the easy wagoning and lurking are complete blatent lies about DDDs play?
If not, I miss your point completely.

[jammer]

*facepalm*

You started about the KMD votes, I seemed to be putting my focus there. And you question me why I ignore spyrex. And I answered becouse I got ¨extra¨ tells (besides the KMD-vote).

[jammer]

I am having an extremely difficult time communicating with you, jammer

I am close to ignoring any responses at this matter, honestly.
Can someone else just say you are misrepping and get this over with, or that I am misrepping that you are misrepping. I feel tired with keeping responding to the petty questions of yours.

2. When you called the lurking and easy-wagoning "extra tells" you were implying that DDD dropped other scumtells BESIDES these two.

So please show me where DDD either doesn't make sense or is NOT concise. If you cannot, then you are applying both town-tells (concise, makes sense) AND scum-tells (hopping on the KMD wagon) inconsistently to Spyrex/DDD.

Ugh,
Firstly I already said I was adding the lurking and the easy wagoning overall as extra tells. Makes it a higher count of tells. I am not denying the L-1 vote on KMD from spyrex looks scummy.

You where comparing spyrex with DDD. So I said the tells besides the KMD vote that made me vote for DDD. The "extra tells".
The KMD-vote you took as argument for, DDD and spyrex are same, why vote DDD? It started there and somehow it changed into "extra tells" and you forget KMD-vote at all if it ever existed.

[jammer]

No. If they were "extra tells" why did you include the KMD vote as one of them? The "easy wagon" was about KMD!

The easy wagoning was about DDD overall play. Most of his votes are rather easy following of others.

[jammer]

jammer has 11 posts in this last week, and 5 in the week before that. And I have questions directly to him that he hasn't answered. He hasn't posted in this thread in almost 72 hours.

I only see this one, eh?

Who are your scumbuddies, jammer? If you tell us, we'll lynch them first. Be a good chap. You've caused enough harm. What with all the killing.

And all this with just 6 days until a deadline by which we NEED to have 6 votes together?

Not sure what is with the hurry. Quite sure out all the players. There are atleast 3 who are going to vote me if needed, no worries. And if there are only 5 votes at deadline I happy selfhammer myself out of the game.

@Vi, the case on KMD is lurking and not explaining the VC-analysis?

@vi, Zach, out of BM, me and DDD who would you like to see lynched most?

@alex, that question about spyrex voting kmd as well has been asked before. What did you like about the ironycake post?

[jammer]

Are you now going to play a jammer and spyrex are both part of a scumteam story?
As I am not going to put my vote on spyrex just to get your vote off me.

[jammer]

What do you think of Spyrex Jammer?

Or... Jammer, what do you think of Spyrex? A little better worded and less confusing.

Overall I am leaning town towards him. The KMD vote with the ¨we lynch gieff tomorrow¨ was strange. But other then that, I say town.

[jammer]

Jammer, you have done a lot of scummy things:

Oh me gee.

You voted Mastin on day 1 (Post 710) after spending a lot of time defending him.

I was getting quite annoying with him not posting anything. So I prodded and voted him at the same time.

Howver, you soon unvoted him (Post 750), even while continuing to call him useless.

Yup, the wagon gained steam and gained votes pretty fast. I unvoted to give someone a chance of Cephrir/bcc and Mastin to post.

You tried to egg on my fight with camn.

Nah ah, I asked Camn a question how she thought about you. I already responded to this one earlier.

You weren't voting anybody at the end of day 2.

Final Vote Count:

Cephrir (7): Debonair Danny DiPietro, Benmage, jammer, SpyreX, Zachrulez, camn, SensFan

And D1 I was indeed not voting for anyone at the end of the day, yet I do not really see at all how it is scummy. The way Mastin was handled it, scum could easily get votes on that wagon without gaining suspicion at all.

You defended Mastin earlier in the day, but said NOTHING to try to stop his lynch later on.

I do not feel like doing any efford into defending and stopping his lynch while he did not came further in the game then page 4(?).

You didn't care if we lynched Cephrir or bcc - is it because you know they're both town?

Not caring what lurker we lynch is scummy? I could see little difference between the 2, if any. Besides that the wagon was filled with players who would vote anyone of the 2. And I even pointed out why Cephrir was a better lynch.

You unvoted Benmage in post 1348, even though you were still questioning him, and just randomly decided to "wagon a lurker." If you were town, you would still be suspicious of Benmage, and wouldn't have unvoted him just for a policy-vote. Looks more like the wagon petered out, so you wanted an excuse to jump off it.

Oh well, now you say it maybe it was better to keep my vote on him for a time. I was more interested in the case he would have on me then lynching him at that time, btw.

You said I wasn't useful in my scumhunting, but couldn't find any examples of it when pressed by Vi.

Meh, there was one post where I bluntly pointed out, neather of your cases where strong D1. Exampels there atleast, it is not that I find your cases usefull, but as I pointed out at Vi´s question, the responses on them are sometimes usefull. Later you even admitted you attack randomly to get reactions. So... actually, you have invoked a load of reactions. Have you shared the results you got on them already?

You ignored Spyrex's vote for KMD but focused strongly on DDD's vote for KMD, using it as the main justification for your vote.

I was looking at spyrex as town, and DDD as w/e. That vote made me look more into DDD and vote him.

In that case: Jammer and BM have both been active on site. And not in here.

Eh? What?
The only difference between this game and the other game we are in. Is the relative actity. I checked and posted last friday there, and last saturday here(before yesterday). Here we got a load of posters going on, in there it is more silent.

@Yaw, is linking to ongoing games to compare activity allowed?

[jammer]

Jammer, you hopped on his wagon at L-4 and left your vote there for a LONG time, yet weren't interesting in lynching him? Do you think that Benmage wagon classified as what you would call an "easy" wagon?

I was not very interested at the time I unvoted, no. Could call it an easy wagon, yes.

I was looking at Vi as town, yet when he does scummy actions, I notice them. Nobody gets a pass, and you are giving Spyrex one simply because he uses about 10% fewer words to make a point than DDD. That's silly.

I never told you I am ignoring spyrex, just do not see him not vote worthy at this time.

[jammer]

@gieff, DDD is not really a easy wagon like benmage.

Also benmage posted something along the lines of V/LA.

[jammer]

Late on wagon, and generally accepted good targets to vote by others.(last one is more of a feeling I get with it)

[jammer]

@DDD, as I see in a earlier post of yours, you like a spyrex lynch becouse of earlier ¨reaching¨ arguments against gieff(the gieff is pro-town and should be nightshot argument). And him trying to mislynch you(lurkerlynch) while he can just ask you questions to get you participating.

This correct? Anything changed?

[jammer]

I don't really want to lynch BM anymore, (...)

Why?

@gieff, if I get the story right. You where poking lolreactions at me. With as assumption spyrex was scum, you where already looking to me as a possible buddy. And iirc you said making assumptions like that was far more likely to be made by scum due to them having more info in the first place.
If I look at it I can be quite surprised you are putting that much efford into looking at me as a scumbuddy of spyrex, while you can not be completely sure of the allignment of spyrex.
I would see gieff-scum do this far more then town-gieff.
(Also this is a perfect example of a possible chainsaw attack, now you are attacking spyrex)

[jammer]

If I look at it I can be quite surprised you are putting that much efford into looking at me as a scumbuddy of spyrex, while you can not be completely sure of the allignment of spyrex.

Applying scumtells inconsistently is scummy NO MATTER spyrex's algnment.

Yea, we went over this. This would into a yes/no! talk. And still I can not see how spyrex is more scummy then DDD.

I would see gieff-scum do this far more then town-gieff.

Yet another attempt to discredit my spy-case. If you truly thought I was scummy, you would vote me. It's clear your objective is NOT to hunt scum, but to get me off of spy.

That line was partly poking fun at the I see ***-scum doing this more then ***-town of yours. I already have my current vote on DDD, can not vote both. And instead of omg-he´s distracting attention from spyrex(I already noted in the same post you could look at it that way) you could respond to the (silly) point.

Also, how do you think about DDD?

unvote

vote GIEFF

V/LA until monday

No playing around now, gieff. You said days earlier we must lynch someone quick becouse time is running out, now you put up a selfvote-gambit.

What has DDD done in the last 9 days?

My best post of the game happened within the last nine days and why are you drawing such an arbitrary line in the sand?

Not sure if that is devaluing spyrexs point about your play even a bit.

[jammer]

@Alex,

6 to lynch, even at deadline (Sunday, August 30 at midnight Eastern Time)

I think that is one day more then the 12 hours you are speaking of, vi?

Alex, you think DDD and spyrex are more likely town then I am?

How is DDD town?

[jammer]

2) Did i say he was town? How are you town?

Well no you did not say it no, with elimination and I was looking at spyrex at town, I wondered how you looked at DDD as more town as me.

Or better to say, how am I more scummy then DDD?

I am town becouse I do not know how the mafia role-PM looks like.

[jammer]

@spyrex, you vote gieff. Any strange feelings that DDD is voting gieff as well?

@Alex, if you see a good chance to lynch me by deadline, then go for it. If not then go for someone who will get lynched. Keeping a vote just for keeping a vote, is wasting one. Especially as benmage is not voting along.

@gieff, you are 3 votes from a lynch.
You may be my preferred lynch gieff, that is up to you. Now I am the only one on the DDD-wagon I think about changing, it is lonely here. If you come and join the wagon, DDD gets 2 votes, and probably gets spyrex off your back and back to DDD.

If you do not, I feel the need to change my vote on you. And join a big happy wagon.

[jammer]

@Yaw, Vi voted Gieff in post 2786.

[jammer]

Alex is town. His frustration seems genuine, altho his change of stance on me is surprising. Jammer is probably scum. His defence to Alex's accusation was weak.

You mean the ¨Let not vote spyrex, got doubts about BM let vote, then let take jammer¨ accusion.

Also,

Unvote: DDD; Vote: gieff

[jammer]

*shrug*
Last time I will be posting in this topic will be roughtly 2 hours at max.

So can anyone who is not voting gieff, tell how likely it is they will be voting gieff later?

I am not really interested to vote spyrex, but then again I want to see blood at the end of the day.

Spyrex case was, putting KMD at L-1 and trying to chainlynch gieff with it, amirite.

[jammer]

Nice to see SF coming in. Makes the amount of unused votes less. One moar vote needed!

@Yaw, V/LA, from wednesday till friday.

[jammer]

So zach opens the day with a VC-analysis. Not agreeing with the conclusion, btw.
I see a zach wagon growing.
I see some fighting between SF and benmage.
Zach votes DDD after spyrex outed interest for DDD/zach.

To investigate: Why the hell people lynched GIEFF? Why over SpyreX?

I though GIEFF was more likely to be scum.
Also a point, why was GIEFF lynched over DDD? Closer to deadline it seemed the idead to lynch DDD slowly went away.

I think that spyrex vs. gieff was a town vs. town. And mafia where possibly on both wagons.

There is something with battlemage that rubbed me the wrong way.
I lean town on SF, mainly becouse of the AtEs.
I see town on spyrex, and I am going to get questioned for that.
DDD is not going to get lots of activity at any time. The first vote on every wagon is not becouse he is a quick voter, but mainly becouse everyone that was earlier switched off and on. So he got a voting consistancy..

I´ll be getting around this more tomorrow. And post something on every player.

[jammer]

Sens needs to man up and join the Zach wagon. Alex, i'd be most happy to take up your offer from yesterday, and have you vote alongside me today. In the event Zach is town, i'll hang tomorrow.

BM

You are suddenly that sure Zach is scum?
Why did you never push hard on getting Zach lynched before then?
You voted him a few times, but more a wishy vote on and off.

Ben, Jammer was on every mislynch except Mastin's, where he wasn't voting at all. Zach neglected to mention this, so not only is Jammer likely scum, but Zach also just connected Jammer to him.

Zach, what is the purpose of your last post?

This makes no sense. So you say me just being on 2 of the 3 lynch wagons makes me likely scum?

^You sound so much like Jammer's scumbuddy in that post. Just sayin'.

In the event Zach is scum and now he got a leading wagon, he would make clear he thinks his scumbuddy is town?
Is that a logical move, scum would make?

Vote: KMD

(blatent chaisaw attack)
Got to view KMD more in detail, I mostly did not notice him for some reason. But I don´t like that reasoning.

View, atm.
Scum,
Kmd4390
Debonair Danny DiPietro
Battle Mage

Meh,
alexhans
Zachrulez
SensFan

Town,
Benmage
SpyreX

[jammer]

Jammer, I am saying that Zach made a good point about Spy and DDD, but neglected to mention you when you weren't even voting at the end of Day 1, but were on the other mislynches. A Zachscumflip probably means you are a good place to look.

Oh, ok. You referred to his VC-analysis. A good point? I can not say I find the the VC-analysis helpfull at all.
Also why do you pick me out of it, there are more then one players who vote all mislynches besides one. SF is even on exact the same lynches.

Yes, it is a logical move for scum. He says he's had a town read on you all game which is consistent with his posts, but then points out that your later play is scummy. So he effectively sets himself up to look ok if you are lynched.

Setting himself up ok if I am lynched, didn´t he had the most votes back then?

What chainsaw are you referring to?

Sarcasm, as I was sure someone would say I did a chainsaw attack. Noone noticed the (..) I put around the text. I should make it more obvious in the future.

Btw, Jammer, why is Spy your biggest town read? Elaborate on Zach, who you have right in the middle.

Well, general I look at his play as town. Besides the L-1 vote on you(KMD) there is nothing that made me think otherwise.
And now he votes me. :/

With Zach, I´ve seen him poking others from the sidelines, what I see as a scum thing. But then again I´ve seen him bringing up some decent points. Also another thing early in game he attecked gieff and pointed at me as town, where I would see scum more waiting a little longer and see what happens.

So I'm fine lynching either of you today. Also, seeing BM/Spy right in the middle of a wagon that is now at L-1 doesn't exactly make me want to jump on.

Unvote, Vote Jammer

Self preservation. The wagon actually looks good too, apart from Spy being on it.

My wagon changes in likiness rather fast.

[jammer]

So your town read on Spy comes specifically from meta? What games are you basing this on and what similarities do you see? What is different in his scum games?

Er, not really. This is pretty much the first game I started playing with spyrex, or with any of you besides VP. I got little reason to believe he is scum, so I look at him as town.
I was in another ongoing with spyrex, but I´d not think talking about that is a smart idea.

Also, how stupid you could call this reasoning, I had some reasoning to not be voting for Mastin, at that time. I wanted to hear from the not-posters first.

[jammer]

Eh..
I am not the one to say he got a good voting record, but anything you did not like?
Something with me voting Spyrex somewhere at end of that day?
Or voting gieff a few times?

[jammer]

Jammer,

Well, general I look at his play as town.

What did you mean by this if not meta?

Might call that gut, I had overall no problems with his play. Altrough the way he recently hopped on my wagon pretty much strangled that feeling.

Actually, "intent to vote Mastin" makes it that much worse because by not voting, he separated himself from the wagon he supported. At the very least, he should be looked at just as much as Spy and DDD for voting on every mislynch.

I might add that I see no reason why voting all lynch targets is oh so suspicous.
Pointing on this, as you find voting every mislynch pretty scummy.
Great job not being on them, voting gieff D2 without pressing on him, and being a lone voter on BM at the end of D3. Pretty much the opposite yes. Less on the scummy site?

The selfpreversation vote on me, it is not like you are in instant danger of getting lynched. Why not seek a lynch on someone you find a better candidate instead of putting me at L-1 becouse someone put you at L-2?

---

Sweet. Well, regardless the fact that jammer chainsaw'd KMD's vote on Zach and called it such makes me more than willing to go:

Unvote, Vote: Jammer

You think I voted KMD, becouse he voted Zach?

Further, I can not remember you showed any willingness to vote me before, that post was enough to put a vote on me?

---
Alex, could you explain why you where/are voting me?
Gut?

---
@SF, pick the scumteam, if you like.

---
Also let drink some WIFOM. If I where scum, why would I kill Camn and Vi. Camn putted me down as town. And I can remember Vi saying he was not willing to lynch me at the end of last day.

Ofcource, if I would be scum, I am not the only one and I could be killing them to purely say this later.

[jammer]

KMD wagon gets awfully quiet.
While players take turns to put me on L-1.

KMD, like to hop on a BM-wagon?

Unvote; Vote: Battle Mage

[jammer]

Why are you asking the guy you were voting for to help you bandwagon another player?

1. Anything for a bigger lynching wagon I support.
2. It gets me out of L-1.
3. KMD posted earlier he did not look at me as a priority wagon and liked battle mage more, if he would´ve denied wagoning BM to the same amount as me, he sure had something to explain.

[jammer]

If I forgot to notice before, I like a battle mage lynch.
With this I get him closer to one.

I don´t like to get lynched, as I think noone would. Wagon on me getting smaller is a nice add, it is not the goal from my vote on battle mage, if that was not clear.


Also, why do you poke on that. And not on the self-preservation vote from KMD on me?

[jammer]

hmm, bit of a shame to be lynched today, but i think i exceeded expectations.

And i highly doubt a town win, with the way this is shaping up.

My Jammer vote stands.

BM

I gues I missed something, I think I am far more likely to get lynched today then you. Spy and both BMs are voting me. Zach said lately there was something suspicious with me, SF calls me likely scum from the start of the game and Alex likes my lynch aswell for some reason.

As the idea you are the primary lynch target is a weird idea, the AtE(I highly doubt a town win now others are voting me) is completely misplaced.

Hi, I'm catching up right now.

Hi, vote BM, I know you want to.

[jammer]

@Zach, what do you think about BMs play in itself?

[jammer]

After their blatant coordination in attempting to get BM lynched, I am fine seeing either lynched at this point.

Yup, I blantently attempt to get BM lynched, so?

Unvote: Vote: Jammer

That vote does not surprise me at all, you where looking for reasons to vote me earlier this game-day. <_<

My opinion of Battle Mage's play hasn't really changed. My conclusion of his likely alignment is what has.

has? So what is your conclusion about his play? I can´t remember you posted your opinion about it.
I gues you pick town becouse you vote me now..

Also, can someone get some reasons why I am a scum?
Or does it purely come down towards, he voted KMD and (sarcastically) called it a chainsaw. And now switching votes together with KMD towards BM.

[jammer]

Let atleast try to get a gues at scum here.

Zach is kinda going oh shi- the one I called as town is getting lynched, must find some excuse fast! That with the poking on the sideline during most of the game. Makes me think scum now.

Battle Mage is just scum. At skimming the wishy washy around gieff and subtle casting suspicion on him. e.g. the camn kill implying gieff. The whole lurking of him when he was going under suspicion(when he called someone out before for lurking when he was suspected), and a few AtE, that seemed to get Alex confinced BM was town but strangely got a opposite effect to me.

Then KMD was pretty happy putting me on L-1 while I was not a lynch priority of him, just to get me some closer then a lynch then himself. There was something I didn´t like about some play of earlier days, dunno what actually now.

Spyrex is pretty suspicios for the way he wagoned on me. He never came close to even questioning/suspecting me before iirc so... Earlier in the game he was on more easy wagons in the game, but besides KMD those where all on previous suspected players. So I´d call this as a second easy wagon without reasoning behind it on his account.

Alexhans. Pretty much backed off the BM lynch when he was being voted. Then starts believing I am scum becouse ben said so(and gut). Erhm?

DDD, more and more thinking his whole play is actual his normal meta. Even then he could easily be scum.

So as obviously town I am if I look at myself. Most of the voters on me most be scum. As I also call the lack of posting, that the scum left us on purpose with DDD and SF. And BM got little activity to join in with the others.

Imma gues Zach, BM and KMD. If that would be true that would mean there was some inner bussing. And the only player who isn´t scum and getting wagoned is getting lynched. <.< So I doubt the combination somehow.
I could see spyrex in there somehow also, looking at BM at obv town, and not willing to lynch Zach at all becouse he had a quick wagon at start of day(and me then? D: ), could even look at his vote on KMD as a possible shoot I gotta bus fast.



Ofcourse town loses after I get lynched, no way town is going to win through 3 times lylo.
So if you got anyone that you suspect more plz don´t vote me. D:
Vote me and you lose, you know. Voting me is town loss!
This ain´t gonna look good for town if I´m going down.
TOWN FAIL

Ok, I just wanted to throw in some kind of AtE as well. It worked for others in the past. If it worked, please forget this line and vote BM or so.

[jammer]

Oh... Something I've been wanting to say for a long time... I was deeply annoyed by the fact that there was no threat of replacement from the mod. He only prodded by rquest and wouldn't replace someone even if that person wouldn't play.

Imo, replacements should only happen if the person being replaced agrees with it, or with flaking out.
Possibly with rule violations, but modkills work as well there.

Actually, this is something to make a thread in mafia discussion with.
"Should a mod replace someone who only posts if prodded."

And benmage, Cerhrir and bcc both comfirmed at night.
Not being able to play is one thing, saying you can play and not doing it is poor.

I have a question for Gieff, though: How do you make those activity tables? I tried making them for a game I was in, and it took way too much time for you to have been using the method I was using.

I'm rather sure he (semi)automated it and got some code to do it for him.