MKM II GAME OVER

[ZEEnon]

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

Not voting (6): ZEEnon, sirdanilot, AceMarksman, Riceballtail, Kast, ortolan

With 6 alive it takes 4 real votes to lynch.

My top two suspects are Riceballtail and Kast.
ortolan is effectively clear in my eyes. (I knew Gorrad was real!)
I feel as if Kast is leading us astray using his leadership qualities.
He really wanted to get rid of Gorrad previously due to unbelieving his role.
I feel as if the fact that he couldn't accomplish that led him to NK Gorrad.

But I am very much willing to lynch ortolan, solely because of scumtells.

Gorrad cleared ortolan.

RBT also can't reasonably be MK based on the N1 MK kill, but likewise he could be third party.

Why not?

Also, I'd be okay with lynching from among the suspected third party members or ZEEnon. If there is 1 MK remaining, then I think it's probably slightly better to lynch ZEEnon, if there are more than 1 MK, then it's better to lynch one of the probable third party guys.

Yesterday you go around saying i'm town and then suddenly i'm the lynch? I think I see scum.

[Kast]

@ZEEnon-
-If it wasn't clear enough, yes I did NK Gorrad. I didn't hide my suspicion yesterday. His premature hammer certainly didn't help.

-With no counter claims, it seems likely that RBT actually killed Qwints. You can argue WIFOM if you feel like it, but I don't believe mafia would NK one of their own members on the off chance that they survive to endgame.

-Yesterday I thought K7 was MK and Gorrad was WW or DK. Turns out I was mistaken about both of them. It would be stupid to continue thinking they were scum, and I find it very odd that you call it scummy to reassess the situation.

Also, I find it suspicious that instead of addressing my analysis, you just OMGUS me and call me suspicious.

@Counting Kills-
N1- 1 Kill
N2- 3 Kill
N3- 2 Kill
N4- 0 Kill
N5- 2 Kill

N1- RBT killed Qwints (MK)
N2- Gorrad killed WLC (BA)
N2- ??? killed Tajo (BA)
N2- ??? killed SOG (BA)
N3- Caf killed Zwet (BA)
N3- ??? killed Mor (BA)
N5- Kast killed Gorrad (BA)
N5- ??? killed Caf (BA)

Ort claims he knows there was at least one scum kill on N4 (but it somehow got stopped).

Then that gives us one unclaimed kill per night (excepting N1 when there were zero and N2 when there were 2). This seems consistent with a single mafia kill, plus one SK (probably RBT). There are a fair number of kill immunities/protective abilities, plus a chance that the SK and mafia double targetted. I would suspect that the remaining faction probably has an alternative win condition.

From Caf's role, it is clear that there is a Jump-based kill. From flavor, the jump based kill makes sense for MK and possibly WW (possibly both).

With that said, I'd like to know if Ace targeted anyone on N1, which could be the reason for no MK kill.

Also, if Ort has information about NKs from nights other than N4 which could help us "solve" the game, that would be appreciated as well.

[AceMarksman]

yeah I did target someone and that someone was semioldguy . I was either drunk or really sleepy when I sent that one in.

[ortolan]

I haven't claimed yet. Should I claim?

The only reason you got out of claiming yesterday is that killah seven got prematurely hammered. Yes, you are claiming, do so now please.

I think it's ridiculous that ortolan is still alive, while he says crap such as 'I intend to vote for RBT today' while I haven't even claimed yet while it is obvious our claims are tied.

And your attempts to direct suspicion towards me when I have not only been clearly pro-town all game but have been explicitly cleared by a dead player with an investigative role are also scummy. Don't think I forgot you're blatantly scummy attempts to pretend to signpost a change in attitude when you said something along the lines of "I think one of the people we've all been assuming is town is scum, like ortolan".

It is not at all obvious your claims are tied in any way.

Sorry, but I didn't believe that claim. I think it was/is overpowered.

Yer you did this in Notre Dame too. That's scummy.

Kast claiming zEEnon as a top suspect is scummy also when as far as I can remember zEEnon is one of the most likely town, but I need to refresh my mind on his claim.

Yesterday you mentioned that you can confirm at least 1 scum attack that went through. Are you willing to share more on that, and particularly, do you know if there were more kill attempts last night?

I don't have anything useful to share on this topic.

we have 6 players remaining, meaning we have at most 2 antitown roles left.

There's third party roles in this game.

But I am very much willing to lynch ortolan, solely because of scumtells.

Scorching analysis.

[AceMarksman]

The two quotes in here:

I haven't claimed yet. Should I claim?

The only reason you got out of claiming yesterday is that killah seven got prematurely hammered. Yes, you are claiming, do so now please.

I think it's ridiculous that ortolan is still alive, while he says crap such as 'I intend to vote for RBT today' while I haven't even claimed yet while it is obvious our claims are tied.

And your attempts to direct suspicion towards me when I have not only been clearly pro-town all game but have been explicitly cleared by a dead player with an investigative role are also scummy. Don't think I forgot you're blatantly scummy attempts to pretend to signpost a change in attitude when you said something along the lines of "I think one of the people we've all been assuming is town is scum, like ortolan".

It is not at all obvious your claims are tied in any way.

were not said by me. These are not the droids you are looking for.

[ortolan]

oh true, my bad

can we get a claim out of u guyths now, if your roles are "linked"? And why does sirdanilot assume I should have inferred your roles were linked?

[AceMarksman]

I wonder that as well.

Ok, as of now, I'm at/en route to the beach. See Y'all!

[Kast]

@Ort-
-RBT said Sirdan is a Spiny. Sirdan said his role is linked with RBT. RBT claimed Spike. RBT claimed to have caught Sirdan's breadcrumb and since then Sirdan has trusted him.

Everyone has claimed now except for Sirdan and yourself.

-Ace claimed Paragoomba.

-ZEEnon claimed Monty Mole (-1RV personally and multiply target player's vote by -1). His power is pretty well demonstrated. His name and affiliation are not.

-Notre Dame was open role. I don't think anybody made any implausible role claims in that game. If you are again referring to an ingrained distrust of me due to misreading me in another game, there's really nothing I can do or say about that.

I'd appreciate more if you'd address my reasoning instead of reminiscing old games.

[Kast]

Btw- I see no flavor reason for Spike and Spiny to be linked.

[Riceballtail]

Okay, I think I have most of the questions answered, but if not sorry.

I was writing a response, and lost it because the thread got locked.

First:

OH. This Spike! :
http://www.mariowiki.com/Spike_%28creature%29

Yes, that spike.

I choose to use my vig power, and sacrifice voting power for the NK. This number was not made known to me, and would seem to be two. I must have real votes in order to kill.

Why qwints? Because I thought Tajo's plan was a stupid idea. I stated such multiple times. I figured that qwints was in on a bus, and went with such hunch.

I don't like ZEEnon's claim because, to my knowledge, Monty Moles attack by throwing rocks, not digging and pulling people underground.

Also, Ort, you still need to claim yourself, even if you're confirmed town. I really don't like the attitude this shows.

[ortolan]

RBT: What was the meaning of this:

Would the other parakoopa like to go next?

Why qwints? Because I thought Tajo's plan was a stupid idea. I stated such multiple times. I figured that qwints was in on a bus, and went with such hunch.

Please be more specific about why you targeted qwints rather than anyone else on the wagon. What did he say that made you think he was busing?

Also, Ort, you still need to claim yourself, even if you're confirmed town. I really don't like the attitude this shows.

What about this attitude do you not like specifically? If I am confirmed town and don't feel that there is any benefit to town by claiming this role what issue do you take with this position?

-Notre Dame was open role. I don't think anybody made any implausible role claims in that game. If you are again referring to an ingrained distrust of me due to misreading me in another game, there's really nothing I can do or say about that.

I'd appreciate more if you'd address my reasoning instead of reminiscing old games.

I never said this was the motivation behind making that statement, your inference is incorrect. I specifically recall in HoND you saying:

Sorry Ort, but I still maintain that your voting behavior regarding Budja was scummy.

This perfectly mirrors your statement:

@Sirdan/Gorrad-
Sorry, but I didn't believe that claim. I think it was/is overpowered.

Re-justifying yourself after the fact when it's no longer relevant to the game, except to excuse your earlier behaviour. Thus I'm inclined to view it as a scum-tell.

Kast, why have you only used your ability twice the entire game?

[AceMarksman]

I found the internet, yey! This is probably the only chance I'm gonna be able to use it until Thursday though, and I don't have much time. However this:

What about this attitude do you not like specifically? If I am confirmed town and don't feel that there is any benefit to town by claiming this role what issue do you take with this position?

Gives me many scum vibes.
1) You aren't confirmed town. I don't know how you got that notion. Yes, gorrad claimed to have investigated you, but there are many circumstances that could cause his result to be faulty. A (full and detailed) roleclaim would help us sort this out.
2) Your refusal to claim when it could be the difference between a win and a loss makes it seem that you have something in your role to hide. I don't like that at all.

Unvote

(did I vote already? If not, oh well)

Vote: ortolan

[ortolan]

1) You aren't confirmed town. I don't know how you got that notion. Yes, gorrad claimed to have investigated you, but there are many circumstances that could cause his result to be faulty. A (full and detailed) roleclaim would help us sort this out.

Are you claiming scum? Town would never put a vote down like that so horribly irresponsibly for no reason. You obviously are vying to end-game now. Explain to me why you think I should claim when you and scum-sirdanilot just lurked all through day two and are now failing to claim.

And no, there is no way for me to have actually been scum, I cannot control what Gorrad writes and he explicitly wrote "when I die ortolan is confirmed" and then proceeded to die and flip town. Yet you lay down a vote on me. Obv-scum. You are now guaranteed to flip scum so I might have to vote for you (you also lay down a vote when my questions are yet to be answered).

So basically, you claim and then sirdanilot claim and then I will, and then we can lynch you scum.

Anyhow, I may end up claiming although

[ortolan]

Scratch that last line, already covered it

[AceMarksman]

And no, there is no way for me to have actually been scum, I cannot control what Gorrad writes and he explicitly wrote "when I die ortolan is confirmed" and then proceeded to die and flip town. Yet you lay down a vote on me. Obv-scum. You are now guaranteed to flip scum so I might have to vote for you (you also lay down a vote when my questions are yet to be answered).

Summed up, this means ortolan is going to OMGUS vote me.

[ortolan]

The reason I intend to vote you is not "OMGUS" i.e. it is not simply because you voted me; it is because you are voting for a cop-confirmed innocent player while providing no justification for doing so.

That is enough reason to policy lynch you several times over; there is no viable situation where you could be town and undertake that course of action.

[ortolan]

you are also voting the cop-confirmed innocent player for hesitating about whether he should claim while you've yet to claim yourself, scum

[ortolan]

(and you ignored the tangent of discussion about you claiming in favour of prematurely voting me)

[sirdanilot]

I was away over the weekend.

Ok let's see. I am a SPINY. Anyone who jumps on me dies, and I survive. My vote counts for 1 (except for on day 4 or 5 when it was lowered, don't remember which of those it was, but the mod made a mistake). I win when everyone not in BA is dead.

RBT: I don't know where I made a 'breadcrumb' except for my flavour claim of when I jumped into the game?

Who needs to claim now? Acemarksman? Ort?

Also ort I actually didn't realize that gorrad's death meant you were confirmed. But you are not really 100% confirmed because of the possibility of investigation influencing factors like sanity etc.

[ortolan]

Gorrad repeatedly said I was confirmed town before he died and said there was no potential for external interference with his investigations, and happily said that if he died I would be confirmed town. Additionally there's absolutely nothing scummy I've done all game- Shadow Knight got lynched because he voted me for no reason and I was second on his wagon- not only through the events of the game but through a confirmed town guaranteed cop sanity am I confirmed town. Anyone spending time scrutinising me and ignoring the other players in the game is not town. I am prepared to policy lynch anyone attacking me. AceMarksman is guaranteed scum.

[Kast]

I choose to use my vig power, and sacrifice voting power for the NK. This number was not made known to me, and would seem to be two. I must have real votes in order to kill.

You didn't answer any of my questions about your role. Also, there is a minor contradiction here.

-You claimed to be a double voter but have claimed 0 RV multiple times while also claiming to have not killed. You also claimed that your number of votes has been changing without knowing why. How do you explain this?
-Is your loss of voting power temporary? If so, how long does it last?
-At what point in time do you decide whether to give up your voting power?

@Ort-
-Your voting behavior was scummy. It made you into a safe mislynch target. If you look at my posts in most of my games, I apologize when I'm mistaken, regardless of affiliation.

-My ability can kill me when I use it. I would rather use it only on people that I strongly believe are lying. I am pretty sure that I have at most 4 uses of my ability, and suspect that it is actually less than 4, although I was unsure of the amount less than 4.

@Ace Claiming-
Wth? Ace already claimed yesterday and I already corrected that. Not paying attention much?

@Ace/Sirdanilot-
Ort is confirmed BA by Gorrad. Gorrad is confirmed BA by his death. That means he wasn't lying about his role (even if it was overpowered). If he had to pay 2 coins for his investigation AND he was limited to only two investigations, it seems extremely unlikely that those investigations would be fake. The only plausible reason I can see to doubt his investigations are if they were implemented as a check against his otherwise unbalanced role.

HOWEVER, I find this unlikely for two reasons:
-He investigated Tajo and said Tajo was BA and Tajo is confirmed BA.
-If mod meant that as a balancing measure, it is an unreliable one since it is not at all guaranteed that Gorrad would use the investigations; particularly not when he could simply kill his suspects and/or create some confirmed townies.

@Sirdanilot's claim-
Sounds plausible on it's own.

I don't see any link between yourself and RBT.

@Overall-
Ace and Sirdanilot both having high levels of distrust for Ort are suspicious. It makes me suspect that we may be down to just me and Ort as BA, with possibly ZEE/Sirdanilot as MK, RBT and AceM as the two independents.

If that is our situation, I don't really see BA winning this one, but the best chances would probably be lynching one of the probable independents (RBT or AceM) to remove one NK. That would leave us with 2 town, 2 mafia, and 1 independent, and potentially 3 night killing abilities.

I don't think there is enough information to determine an ideal course of action, though I suspect scum are also probably unclear of how best to proceed.

I also suppose that at this time, if there are independents who have compatible win conditions with the town, now might be a good time to share that and see if anything can be worked out.

[sirdanilot]

Well I suppose Ort can be trusted for now then.

[ZEEnon]

Vote: ortolan

No idea why AceMarksman would vote the clear.

[Kast]

@ZEEnon-
To be clear, you are implying that your vote is still worth -1RV and so it cancels AceM's vote?

[ortolan]

I hope so LOL

I'd forgotten about Ace's claim

RBT's claim is still way scummy and he's still yet to answer my questions.

Then I would lynch AceMarksman or sirdanilot- probably sirdanilot first unfortunately because AceMarksman has done nothing scummy except vote me, but that's almost enough to get him over the line.

I could see Kast being third party but I'm willing to assume he's not because the game is probably unwinnable if he is (or even isn't) so I'll just go with Occam's razor and give him the benefit of the doubt.