Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[SensFan]

I think I've made it fairly obvious why I suspect all 4 of the above.

No you haven't, actually. It is not "obvious" why you suspect Mastin. You made some vague accusations at the beginning of the game about NK speculation, but that was directed at no one in particular. So, it's BS for you to now act like he was on your list the whole time now that his wagon is gaining steam.

Except that, you know, I never said he was on my list the whole time. I said it should be obvious why I am voting him right now.

Please read my posts.

[VP Baltar]

I've read your posts. They are largely opportunistic, which is the issue. If you fail to mention Mastin in any way other than your vote post based on others' reasoning, you're just being a sheep.

[alexhans]

Jammer: Maybe BM vs Alexhans got a bit personal. But there's the fact that he pushed my case trying to appear convinced all the time only to uvote later. Many of the things he tried to use as arguments were just fluff. He is an important suspect but with so few input from many other players that's hardly conclusive. I want everybody to play before I decide who must get lynched.

HI KMD!

I have recently discovered that Mastin's scum meta is to fall behind and lurk. I might not be opposed to his lynch given I have seen this prove accurate twice.

I think it can be a null tell for now. He may be trying to catch up. He replaced into a game I co-modded where he posted several times saying he was going to catch up but that he was busy and was finally killed at night without having said anything relevant to the game. 791 Beard Mafia.

I support ANY lurkerlynch.

YET. Unlike you, you never jumped on lurkers like broomhead and don't vote for them now.

I didn't read mastin's posts but I assume he was catching up...

Mod: Prod him, please...

I just realized that my Monday and your Monday are different things... stupid spherical Earth.

lol.

Ah yeah, sorry. Timezone differences didn't occur to me. Oh well, check out the links I provided and you can see that as scum he isn't a very good player. He falls behind and promises to catch up but really just continues to lurk.

Again. Look at Beard Mafia.. How many games have you metaed?

Hi. Who is scum?

probably you.

KMD...did you even read before voting Cephir?

Mmk. You've passed the test.

Apparently you didn't notice, but this is a Mountainous setup. If you had claimed a power role you would be confirmed scum. That you didn't means that you were either not willing to risk a counterclaim, or that you are actually town.

Kai... how do we know she didn't notice? Is she town then?

Mastin, alex, jammer, GIEFF.

There's at least one, if not two or all three, in there.

I think IRC would suit you man... You don't say anything and yet expect us to think you have a reason.

Since when you suspect Mastin???

All you people asking me to write novels about why I suspect who I do, its not going to happen. This is how I play, and I'm right a whole lot more often than I was when I wrote novels.

ok...
Not giving reasons why you vote is like never leaving RVS...

Besides, I think I've made it fairly obvious why I suspect all 4 of the above. If you really have no idea, read the thread. If you still have no idea, and you've done what you feel is enough looking into the matter on your own, then you can ask me.

Using other people's arguments to suspect people...

Being so unhelpful you're not a good asset to town. You could hide forever behind this crappy attitude. Not willing to let that happen.

Vote SensFan

Why suspicious of Mastin all of the sudden? I don't see you state any reasons why he is scum.

let's say it is convenient for him... He admits that he votes for him because he is on the biggest waggon.

Meh, that is quite clear.
SensFan says he agrees with the reasoning others gave(in the thread), between his last 2 posts. He is sheeping on the new insights on Mastin.

dude... since when we allow players to just state vaguely that they agree with others in general and then vote without giving a single reason for their random banter. He continually uses his supposed skills to excuse his lack of scumhunting and participation.

Mastin is at L-2, by the way. Just in case 2 people "don't notice" in succession.

[Zachrulez]

I'm seeing from Mastin's meta that he falls behind and lurks generally regardless of his alignment.

What looks abnormal to me is the blatant night kill speculation that he uses to try to clear himself.

Perhaps you can help me out by showing me a game that nullifies that issue?

[Zachrulez]

If one exists that is.

[VP Baltar]

How many games have you metaed?

More than you apparently. I believe it was benmage who put it best, and I'm paraphrasing, but why don't you 'hop off Mastin's dick'.

Seriously, stop being his babysitter unless you're his scum partner...in which case please continue and we'll lynch you tomorrow.

[GIEFF]

Being at L-2, I'd think Mastin would be able to nudge this game up his priority list just a smidge.


And Sensfan, I don't care how amazing you think you are. What you are doing is completely useless to the town, and completely scummy. You KNOW this, so what you are doing is pretty much just trolling. You are perfectly capable of telling your reasons, but you refuse to, because you want to keep your image.

Please play the game.

[GIEFF]

Note - alex has upgraded his Mastin-defense strategy from NutSoCaps and an FoS to the chainsaw.

[alexhans]

More than you apparently. I believe it was benmage who put it best, and I'm paraphrasing, but why don't you 'hop off Mastin's dick'.

Seriously, stop being his babysitter unless you're his scum partner...in which case please continue and we'll lynch you tomorrow.

I knew that this was going to go on like that...

I'll ask again, so please answer. How many games have you meta-ed?

I'll do what I want. NO one's gonna bully me to stop thinking what I do.

You seem to ignore sentences like these:

I'm seeing from Mastin's meta that he falls behind and lurks generally regardless of his alignment.

-------------------------------------------

Note - alex has upgraded his Mastin-defense strategy from NutSoCaps and an FoS to the chainsaw.

Why would I defend mastin... You're not attacking him with new stuff... you're just voting for him...

Now, some of you seem to be deciding that mastin's non-posting is scummy... and, still, he is not the only one... What about Cephir?

what has changed since my NutSoCaps (L-4) to (L-2)??? Basically nothing... I still don't view him as scummy and am eagerly awaiting his post. The one good point about him may be that he seemed to be trying to autoclear himself.

Other than that. I DONT find his proposal about NK speculation scummy. Sensfan's and BM's scared reactions, however, may be of note.

[VP Baltar]

@alex--if you were reading the thread you'd see how many games (and which ones, at that) I metaed to come to my conclusion. It was more than the one example you provided. thx.

I did ignore Zach's sentence because I find that the evidence points much more towards it being a scumtell for him rather than a null tell.

[alexhans]

@alex--if you were reading the thread you'd see how many games (and which ones, at that) I metaed to come to my conclusion. It was more than the one example you provided. thx.

I saw it. I just wanted to see if there was any other.

2 games + 1 ongoing. Ok. (You ignored the games where he was town and lurked?)

I did ignore Zach's sentence because I find that the evidence points much more towards it being a scumtell for him rather than a null tell.

I'd seriously recommend reading Mastin's wiki... He specifically talks about his getting behind on games.

If he is lurking and, as you say, it is a scumtell... are you guys willing to lynch him before he posts again? What if it took him a whole week to do it? Would you lynch him then?

[SensFan]

Sensfan's and BM's scared reactions, however, may be of note.

Want to keep misrepping me? Or maybe you want to keep basing suspicions off the one thing Scum have 100% control over?

---

GIEFF and others, I'm never the type of player to make alex/mastin-like posts, even in a Mini. In a Large Game, the less big posts the better, especially in the early days.

I'm not going to add even more noise to this thread by making ridiculously long cases, we have enough of that already. Instead, I'll make sure I'm on record as to who and when I suspect people, and why I suspect them. That way, there's a clear record of my suspicions, and a track record of my votes and such.

In future days, when there is less noise, it will be more appropriate for everyone who is alive to be making large cases.

[camn]

I agree with SensFan so much it hurts me.

[Zachrulez]

I'm seeing from Mastin's meta that he falls behind and lurks generally regardless of his alignment.

What looks abnormal to me is the blatant night kill speculation that he uses to try to clear himself.

Perhaps you can help me out by showing me a game that nullifies that issue?

Please don't ignore what followed the top line...

[VP Baltar]

I saw his wiki. He cites one town game where he lurked Open 141. Perhaps he was less active in that game than he might normally be, but it doesn't look like strict lurking to me. He was still posting content.

In reference to the Beard Mafia game you reference, you conveneintly fail to recognize that he replaces into it 14 pages after it start, ie already behind before he makes a single post.


Point is, neither of these is very convincing that Mastin lurks regularly as town. On the other hand, EVERY game in his wiki as scum shows him as lurking. I don't get how you come to the conclusion that this is somehow null. Your turn to actually prove your point.

[Zachrulez]

What's bothering me about Alex's defense of Mastin was how he clinged to me saying that I thought the falling behind and lurking was null, but ignored what followed which was me citing my problems with his nightkill speculation, which I found to be more striking than the lurking point.

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Mastin (6): Zachrulez, GIEFF, Benmage, VP Baltar, Debonair Danny DiPietro, SensFan
GIEFF (2): camn, Battle Mage
Cephrir (2): jammer, Kmd4390
Battle Mage (1): Mastin
jammer (1): Kairyuu
Zachrulez (1): SpyreX
SensFan (1): alexhans


Not Voting: Cephrir

Cephrir has been prodded. Mastin has checked in since the prod request, so a prod on him is not required.

8 to lynch

[GIEFF]

GIEFF and others, I'm never the type of player to make alex/mastin-like posts, even in a Mini. In a Large Game, the less big posts the better, especially in the early days.

I'm not going to add even more noise to this thread by making ridiculously long cases, we have enough of that already. Instead, I'll make sure I'm on record as to who and when I suspect people, and why I suspect them. That way, there's a clear record of my suspicions, and a track record of my votes and such.

Thank you for your response, Sens.

I'm not asking you for pages and pages, and I agree that too much text can be bad for the town. I'm asking you for simple reasons. 1 or 2 lines will do. I asked you three times about jammer, and you didn't respond once.

I agree with SensFan so much it hurts me.

You agree that it is not appropriate to provide reasoning for votes, or that it is not appropriate to make large cases? Or agree with something else?



-----


I did my own investigation into Mastin's meta, and he does fall behind and lurk in a few town games. Let's look at it numerically, though:

[mrow][col]Alignment[col]Posts/Day[col]1,000's of Chars/DayLynch Lurkers[col]Scum[col]0.8[col]0.4Open 145[col]Scum[col]0.8[col]1Open 141[col]Town[col]1[col]1.4Newbie 762[col]Town[col]0.6[col]0.7Mini 760[col]Town[col]1.9[col]1.9Newbie 735[col]Town[col]1.8[col]2.3This Game[col]?[col]2.7[col]1.4


Here is a summary of Mastin's wagon:

Zachrulez: Post 63
GIEFF: Post 70
Battle Mage: Post 72 (has since unvoted to vote Alex, and now says Mastin is town)
BenMage: Post 83
VP Baltar: Post 237
DDP: Post 249
SensFan: Post 270


Baltar, DDP, and SensFan, it looks as though your votes are primarily due to lurking and meta reasons - is that correct?

----

When I get some free time, I'll do a similar meta-lurking analysis for Cephrir.

----

Thanks for the prod, Yaw.

[camn]

That these Line by Line attack/rebuttal cases based on early Day 1 "slips" are not helpful in catching scum now, and not helpful looking back either.

I, for one, can't remember anyone EVER catching scum that way on day 1. .. though I admit it has maybe happened.

But I also admit, I am a very poor Day-1 player. My strength is endgame.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, DDP, and SensFan, it looks as though your votes are primarily due to lurking and meta reasons - is that correct?

See my post above. His town games where he lurked and his scum games where he lurked are different, imo, but yes it is a largely meta-based vote.

[alexhans]

So... SensFan... Camn... the idea is to shut it as longer as you can so you can easyly glide through the first stages of the game and not be suspected of anything. If everyone played like you this would not be a game.

In reference to the Beard Mafia game you reference, you conveneintly fail to recognize that he replaces into it 14 pages after it start, ie already behind before he makes a single post.

I thought Id said it. With so many games to catch up`after a V/LA. It seems plausible that he needs time to catch up.

Anyway. Mastin Posted. So you should read what HE posted and look at his reasons.

Ok... VP... say what you want. Mastin lurks as scum... yeah... yeah... We'll pull subjective meta to add reasons to lynch him...

What's bothering me about Alex's defense of Mastin was how he clinged to me saying that I thought the falling behind and lurking was null, but ignored what followed which was me citing my problems with his nightkill speculation, which I found to be more striking than the lurking point.

Zach, I didn't ignore it. But it was not relevant to my talk with VP Baltar.

Most of you seem to think that NK speculation is scummy. By that token you not only have to suspect Mastin but me and some others too...

Do you always suspect those who NK speculate? ehh zach? In all your games? I guess not. Because when Panzer told us it was scummy to speculate about it in Mini 761 we all went against him.

And for the record. There's 2 games (One that I know of, the other is wiky hearsay) where Mastin lurks as town.

And let's all recall what I said about setting a tendency. Right now. Mastin is at L-2. The points haven't changed but now we are using "lurking" after V/LA wich he at least explained as scummy enough to keep voting him based on previous suspicions about him speculating on Night kills...

That's not a good case to me. It wasn't earlier. It's not gonna be now.

As I said. A good point may be that he tried to autoclear himself but no more than that.
------------------
I'm loving how this game is always monotematic... With 12 or so players just hiding safely around a topic... always...

[GIEFF]

That these Line by Line attack/rebuttal cases based on early Day 1 "slips" are not helpful in catching scum now, and not helpful looking back either.

I agree - line-by-line helps nobody, and nobody reads the whole thing.

But I also admit, I am a very poor Day-1 player. My strength is endgame.

I didn't think you were a poor Day-1 player in the game I played with you or your games that I read. Are you attempting to write off your lack of scumhunting to an early-game weakness?

Who do you think is scum, and why?


------

Baltar, DDP, and SensFan, it looks as though your votes are primarily due to lurking and meta reasons - is that correct?

See my post above. His town games where he lurked and his scum games where he lurked are different, imo, but yes it is a largely meta-based vote.

Do the numbers I provided change your opinion at all?

[Zachrulez]

What's bothering me about Alex's defense of Mastin was how he clinged to me saying that I thought the falling behind and lurking was null, but ignored what followed which was me citing my problems with his nightkill speculation, which I found to be more striking than the lurking point.

Zach, I didn't ignore it. But it was not relevant to my talk with VP Baltar.

Most of you seem to think that NK speculation is scummy. By that token you not only have to suspect Mastin but me and some others too...

Do you always suspect those who NK speculate? ehh zach? In all your games? I guess not. Because when Panzer told us it was scummy to speculate about it in Mini 761 we all went against him.

Oh what a lie!

You are totally misleading this group of players by trying to represent that it was the primary reason I voted to lynch Panzer in that game.

If you recall the way the events unfolded, I was FINE with Panzer's suspicions on the NK speculation, and was in agreement with him that it was scummy. EVERYONE ELSE in the game went against him for that and I ultimately voted for him because he fake claimed as a vanilla townie and his claim didn't add up.

FOS: Alexhans

[VP Baltar]

Do the numbers I provided change your opinion at all?

Not significantly. What this all really depends on is if he actually comes back and posts some content, which remains to be seen.

Your numbers also point out the lurking from him is significantly worse when he is scum. We shall see if that changes here, but I'm plenty comfortable with my vote right now.

[camn]

If everyone played like you this would not be a game..

That cuts both ways, though. If all 16 of us adressed every line of every post.. this would ALSO not be a game.

But I also admit, I am a very poor Day-1 player. My strength is endgame.

I didn't think you were a poor Day-1 player in the game I played with you or your games that I read. Are you attempting to write off your lack of scumhunting to an early-game weakness?

Who do you think is scum, and why?

Didn't I replace into that game? And besides.. we were SCUM that game.. Day 1 for scum is a lot easier, I think.
And re: your reading... well.. I can't give that much weight

Anyway, I AM writing off my lack of scumhunting to early-game weakness. I don't know who the scum are. I don't put much credence in RVS 'scumslips'.
The only time I can remember ever getting scum Day 1 is on lurkerlynches... This is my least favorite part of every game.