Mini 815 - Lazy Neighborhood Mafia (Game Over)

[MafiaSSK]

Do not like the way Y is defending falco. Its not that he is defending, but how. There is a point where he says that he is reading into it wrong, then present the "right" way to do it. There is no right way. Everyone has their own way of playing the game and getting tells and pressuring, attacking, defending. Some people play abbrasive, some you dont notice, some bulldog on something they think is a scumtell. Attacking a playstyle is about one of the scummiest things you can do. The additon of a very bad analogy to make the point stronger is weak as well.

Why is attacking a playstyle on of the scummiest things you can do? It can also be a very pro-town move in such instances at Iericent has describe in two posts above me.

Ok, for this whole flaco-sajin thing, its completely a two way street. I looked at this from a completely detached standpoint, and here is the basic arguement from what I am seeing

Sajin: Falco was talking with partners pre-game. PMs suggest it
Falco: No I wasnt, stop tunneling, you are scum for tunneling.

I believe the case has evolved from just this. It is no longer just PMs but what Falko has said

in the game

. Falco's case may not have evolved much though.That's one of the main reasons why my vote is still on Falco.

Both of you are playing with blinders on. I am guilty of this at times, everyone is, but this is SO FREAKING BLATANT. I dont think either of you are even considering that the other could be town, or that there could be a better lynch.

Falko has considered others as a better lynch. He has expressed a suspicion of me as scum. Also Ash.

This is what creates problems in games, when people present a false dilemma and it start dominating the game. I still think that Sajin is town, and am actually waining a bit on falco.

Please explain why you are now waining on Falco. Also explain why you think Sajin is town and why you stated such.

There is a saying that "A drunk mans words are a sober mans thoughts". I scratched out some more notes after my post last night, and found Ash as the scummiest and flaco as about at 55% (I work as 50% is unknown, 60%+ is vote, 75%+ is day vig). Maybe everyone should kick back, have a few drinks and reread, it does give you a different perspective.

How did you get all of this?

Lalala I like telling scum who to kill.

Woo! ZH scummy too. He posts similar to ash in the sense of "can not take a solid stance". He calls Sajin town for catching falco (and here I cant even recall ZH trying to get falco lynched), then he starts going back the other way. Sure Sajin could be scum, he would be sorry, but he could be scum. More failure to take a clear and percise stance.

Zeik never directly calls Sajin town for catching Falko. He calls him town for his "mofo logic" And he does vote Falco as his first post which

could

count as trying to get Falco lynched. Also Zeik seems to just drop the case on Falko after he votes him. He doesn't try to follow up on such.

Ok so we have a Ash-ZH scum pairing here. 162 by Ash just screams scum.

How is this post scum? In context, it seems perfectly fine.

First Ash says that flaco is scummy, then he says that SSK and ZH are scummy for voting him wagon-like (that was not blatant wagon, you need to read some games with blatant wagon then compare).

Game links?

I actually somewhat agree with ZA. I likely would of not said anything N0 outside of a "hi" if someone contacted me. I dont know what I will say N1, if much at all. Just because a mechanich exists doesnt mean that you have to use it, there are many situations where not using your power can be better for the town, even in this game. Think if you are a RB and you have town reads on your neighbors, why would you use it?

But given the oppurtunity to be able to speak to others private, and get more of an isolation read on them which can effect your read later. Why not talk to them?

lol ZA is funny.

Cant really read him well, but I would bet town

given that he is making and sticking to logical arguements in the face of getting votes. People who are voting him for making sense make none. Claiming on the other hand... not so good. I bet you he is a GS though. So one more name up on the town list.

Where has ZA made a logical argument?
Also this is the part of the post that I talked about in the post before this one. The bolded statement. You say he's Obvtown with no other reasoning besides that one.

Also who are the people who are voting for him for making sense?

Why do you give an opinion on the GS claim?

Look at 204. SO MUCH FENCESITTING. Lurkers shouldnt be lynched, we should lynch scummy, but the longer they lurk the scummier they get. So basically we lynch lurkers D2, really not smart at all.

Why is it not smart? Why should we not lynch lurkers on D2? Could we lynch lurkers D1?

Also trying to get SSK lynched for voting ZA is almost as stupid as voting ZA.

It was a fair vote.

Really bad speculation on Ash's behalf too. If we are going to play this 100% random, there is a 38% you are next to two town, 57% one scum 5% two scum. What role you have should NOT AT ALL effect your thoughts on who you are next too.

Where'd he post that things should be random?

Also, your role might sometimes effect your thoughts on who you are next too.

Ice puts a weak reasoning vote on Sajin.

I have to agree with this. It was a vote based purely on WIFOM and trying to encourage a person. This deserves an

FOS:Iec

Thats all for now, for seriously though, why arent we killing Ash? If I could day vig him right now I would be doing that.

Are you 1349388493% sure that he's scum off of such a little case?

[Iecerint]

I have to agree with this. It was a vote based purely on WIFOM and trying to encourage a person. This deserves an

FOS:Iec

To clarify, you're referring to my actual vote against Sajin (i.e. the one intended to encourage Sajin to reveal his evidence against falko), right?

[MafiaSSK]

I have to agree with this. It was a vote based purely on WIFOM and trying to encourage a person. This deserves an

FOS:Iec

To clarify, you're referring to my actual vote against Sajin (i.e. the one intended to encourage Sajin to reveal his evidence against falko), right?

Mhm.

[MafiaSSK]

I have to agree with this. It was a vote based purely on WIFOM and trying to encourage a person. This deserves an

FOS:Iec

To clarify, you're referring to my actual vote against Sajin (i.e. the one intended to encourage Sajin to reveal his evidence against falko), right?

Mhm.

I should also add to this that I don't treat FoS's that seriously.

[Iecerint]

Could you clarify how the vote was based on WIFOM? I agree that it was trying to encourage a person, though.

[MafiaSSK]

Could you clarify how the vote was based on WIFOM? I agree that it was trying to encourage a person, though.

2. I agree with Y and Ash with regard to Sajin's lack of cooperativeness. I am not certain that he is scum, because I think this would be a very silly pre-game gamble for scum to make. [/wifom] I will nonetheless

Vote: Sajin

to encourage his cooperation.

As you said yourself, it's WIFOM. As thus, is the basis of part of your vote.

[Iecerint]

Oh, I see. The WIFOM part is actually an argument for Sajin being town. I'm justifying my not having prior voted for Sajin in spite of agreeing with Y and Ash. The vote is unrelated. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[MafiaSSK]

Oh, I see. The WIFOM part is actually an argument for Sajin being town. I'm justifying my not having prior voted for Sajin in spite of agreeing with Y and Ash. The vote is unrelated. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I see.

UnFOS

[AshMC1984]

Mod: Please replace me. I can't seem to find a balance between my new job and MS yet. Apologies fellow players - I know replacements are annoying but it would if I made one brief post every few days with very little analysis, which is all I would currently have time for.

[halflight007]

You mean, why I’m not using a traslating offer?? I'm going to put you and example.

Well, in fact I used a translator to help me sometimes, but it's about
concentration, because the literally translation can gimme something like

"I want people to understand once and for all that the case against is that the collared peccary could not know that I was talking to SKK ask when contacted as neighbors, unless they have the communication and SKK simultaneously while talking to me. PM me for any of collared peccary can infer that I was talking with someone. " Collared peccary knew and that is totally suspect"

when I want to say that:

I want you to understand once for all that one of the reasons to vote for Sajin is because he couldn’t possible know that I was talking with SKK at the moment I asked him how contact neighbors, at least if SKK and Sajin would had communication simultaneously meanwhile they was talking with me. From No PM from me to Sajin can infer that I was talking with “somebody”. Sajin knew it and this is totally suspicious

You got my point?

I think what you're trying to say, if I'm reading this correctly, is that a literal web translator would get some words wrong. And I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is that you should run it through a Word Processor - sometimes you miss particles of English, and your sentences and ideas tend to run together. Would putting it through a spell/grammar check solve all the problems? No. But I think it would look a little bit clearer, and I, at least, would have an easier time following your train of thought.

Also, regarding your recent accusation of ZONE; it's all well and good if you suspect him of being mafia. But what proof, other than what has already been mentioned and what I have proposed, do you have that he's scum? I mean, first you were pushing the case on Sajin pretty hard - why would you abandon it?

@ Furry:

From a cursory glance at your posts, I like some of your trains of thought. That said, PLEASE STOP POSTING WHO YOU THINK IS TOWN, especially "obvtown." It might give the Mafia lynch ideas.

[Furry]

just did a very breif skim of what happened since I replaced. Regarding the whole "calling people town" thing I need to address something.

There is nothing wrong with calling people town, and making it known to people. I highly doubt that mafia will purely kill who

I

deem as town, over who comes off as the biggest town read of the day, or who poses the biggest threat. The ones who usually get more jumpy about having people being called town are scum, since the single biggest threat to the existance of scum is a large group of town people coming to the conclusion that they are town.

Im not going to let myself get blocked from playing the way I do. Im usually the one who does the blocking. Its not detremental to the town to have me call people town. It provokes reactions, and forces scum to counteract what I am pushing if I am correct.

I am more comfortable with town read on average then scum reads, they end up being much more accurate then scum reads on a whole (mostly due to VIs and whatnot but...). EIther way, PoE is a decent way of at least breaking down the scum pool quite a bit. If I can take a third of the players alive out of the equation, im going to do that.

[Iecerint]

If everyone says that a certain player is town, that player is condemned to NK, the town is left with maximally scummy players, and scum can hide more easily. You should avoid listing town reads for this reason. It's true that one player doing this isn't totally crippling, but your behavior still contributes to that sort of thing. I think that's why halflight is encouraging you to alter your play.

I think scum tells tend to be more reliable than town tells. Town tells can almost always be explained by scum wanting to look town. The opposite is not true of scum tells.

What do "VI" and "PoE" refer to?

[MafiaSSK]

just did a very breif skim of what happened since I replaced. Regarding the whole "calling people town" thing I need to address something.

There is nothing wrong with calling people town, and making it known to people. I highly doubt that mafia will purely kill who

I

deem as town, over who comes off as the biggest town read of the day, or who poses the biggest threat. The ones who usually get more jumpy about having people being called town are scum, since the single biggest threat to the existance of scum is a large group of town people coming to the conclusion that they are town.

Oh yes, bu tthey will kill off of who you think is town. Because that means that they have a strong leadership over the town which is not good for the scum. As thus, they will kill them.

Why do you believe the ones who get jumpy about people being called town are scum? Because you're logic right there doesn't make any sense.

Im not going to let myself get blocked from playing the way I do. Im usually the one who does the blocking. Its not detremental to the town to have me call people town. It provokes reactions, and forces scum to counteract what I am pushing if I am correct.

So you think that you should not be blocked because you have a large ego? That has to be the stupidest reason I've ever heard.

And yes, it is detrimental to the town to have you call people town. It gives scum a better understanding of who seems to be the leader and who the town trusts. IF that person is town, then they are a huge threat to scum because that usually means they're good at scum-hunting and will find the scum. When they find the scum, they lynch the scum.So the scum kill them in the early stages when people announce that a certain person is "town" or "obvtown".

I am more comfortable with town read on average then scum reads, they end up being much more accurate then scum reads on a whole (mostly due to VIs and whatnot but...). EIther way, PoE is a decent way of at least breaking down the scum pool quite a bit. If I can take a third of the players alive out of the equation, im going to do that.

Can you give me a sample of games where you've used this method before?
Also PoE is a longer, more detrimental way as already explained to find scum. Hence, why we stick to scumhunting and not town-hunting. Even if it does mean lynching VIs.

[MafiaSSK]

What do "VI" and "PoE" refer to?

Village Idiot and Process of Elimination. Respectively.

[Furry]

just did a very breif skim of what happened since I replaced. Regarding the whole "calling people town" thing I need to address something.

There is nothing wrong with calling people town, and making it known to people. I highly doubt that mafia will purely kill who

I

deem as town, over who comes off as the biggest town read of the day, or who poses the biggest threat. The ones who usually get more jumpy about having people being called town are scum, since the single biggest threat to the existance of scum is a large group of town people coming to the conclusion that they are town.

Oh yes, bu tthey will kill off of who you think is town. Because that means that they have a strong leadership over the town which is not good for the scum. As thus, they will kill them.

So I am the complete judge for who is town here? I know not everyone agrees with my reads, that pretty obvious. If scum are just going to NK who I think is town, that means they have to forgo PR hunting/counteracting in entirety, which is a good thing.

Why do you believe the ones who get jumpy about people being called town are scum? Because you're logic right there doesn't make any sense.

Scum get more jumpy when you start calling people (not them) town. If it becomes a truth instead of a theory to the town, then thats someone that they are not able to get lynched.

Im not going to let myself get blocked from playing the way I do. Im usually the one who does the blocking. Its not detremental to the town to have me call people town. It provokes reactions, and forces scum to counteract what I am pushing if I am correct.

So you think that you should not be blocked because you have a large ego? That has to be the stupidest reason I've ever heard.

I dont let myself get bullied into changing my playstyle. If someone cant deal with it, thats their problem, not mine. Im not lurking, im not doing anything without reasons, im not shamelessly wagoning. I probably could of said that last part better though, im usually more like ZA and just get short with people who are playing anti-town.

And yes, it is detrimental to the town to have you call people town. It gives scum a better understanding of who seems to be the leader and who the town trusts. IF that person is town, then they are a huge threat to scum because that usually means they're good at scum-hunting and will find the scum. When they find the scum, they lynch the scum.So the scum kill them in the early stages when people announce that a certain person is "town" or "obvtown".

Leader =/= most town in all cases. Also the best scumhunter or the biggest threat to scum is not always the most obv-town player. Scum see things town doesnt since they know more about the game, maybe the person who is seen as leaning town is on the right track so gets killed over the person who most people see as town. Also if you are really so concerned about me calling people town since they are going to get killed, it also starts having the scum think about a town RB, JK or doc that can be messing them up.

I am more comfortable with town read on average then scum reads, they end up being much more accurate then scum reads on a whole (mostly due to VIs and whatnot but...). EIther way, PoE is a decent way of at least breaking down the scum pool quite a bit. If I can take a third of the players alive out of the equation, im going to do that.

Can you give me a sample of games where you've used this method before?

I have one finished game as scum, and am dead in one. You should know I use this method though.

Also PoE is a longer, more detrimental way as already explained to find scum. Hence, why we stick to scumhunting and not town-hunting. Even if it does mean lynching VIs.

When I get sure someone is town, they are town much much more often then when I get sure someone is scum. I get a smaller pool to work with, and catching scum gets much much easier.

[Tarballs]

@mod

- Are we allowed encode messages to neighbors?

I don't see a problem in doing that, so go ahead.

8th Vote Count of Day 1

3 - Sajin

(falcomagno, Y, ZONEACE)

2 - falcomagno

(Sajin, MafiaSSK)

1 - MafiaSSK

(AshMC1984)

1 - ZONEACE

(ZeikHunter)

1 - AshMC1984

(Furry)

4 - Not Voting

(halflight007, DraketheFake, killa seven, Iecerint)


With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

Deadline: July 30th, 2009

I'll start searching for a replacement for AshMC1984.

[Tarballs]

SuperBridge replaces AshMC1984.

[halflight007]

Scum get more jumpy when you start calling people (not them) town. If it becomes a truth instead of a theory to the town, then thats someone that they are not able to get lynched.

Still doesn't excuse the fact that by saying that ZONE is "obvtown", you're putting him at greater risk for an NK. Especially if everyone agrees with you.

In regards to gameplay meta, I got NKed on N1 in my first game because everyone was stupid enough (me included, I'll admit) to post what they thought of EVERYONE in the game. I was the one player everyone said was pro-town, and I got killed for it.

There is a reason that I am going after perceived scumtells and questioning everyone, rather than just saying outright who I think is town and scum, and that is because the less information scum has, the better. At this point, the town does not need to know who town is. They need a consensus on who they think is scum.

[MafiaSSK]

just did a very breif skim of what happened since I replaced. Regarding the whole "calling people town" thing I need to address something.

There is nothing wrong with calling people town, and making it known to people. I highly doubt that mafia will purely kill who

I

deem as town, over who comes off as the biggest town read of the day, or who poses the biggest threat. The ones who usually get more jumpy about having people being called town are scum, since the single biggest threat to the existance of scum is a large group of town people coming to the conclusion that they are town.

Oh yes, bu tthey will kill off of who you think is town. Because that means that they have a strong leadership over the town which is not good for the scum. As thus, they will kill them.

So I am the complete judge for who is town here? I know not everyone agrees with my reads, that pretty obvious. If scum are just going to NK who I think is town, that means they have to forgo PR hunting/counteracting in entirety, which is a good thing.

No, you are not the complete judge of anything! The town is. If they all, or at least some of all the town says someone is town or obvtown then they will be night killed. And that player will also most likely be a PR. So they will not forgo PR hunting at all.

Why do you believe the ones who get jumpy about people being called town are scum? Because you're logic right there doesn't make any sense.

Scum get more jumpy when you start calling people (not them) town. If it becomes a truth instead of a theory to the town, then thats someone that they are not able to get lynched.

What? Where are you getting this from? Links please to where you've seen this before. Include at least 2 games.

Im not going to let myself get blocked from playing the way I do. Im usually the one who does the blocking. Its not detremental to the town to have me call people town. It provokes reactions, and forces scum to counteract what I am pushing if I am correct.

So you think that you should not be blocked because you have a large ego? That has to be the stupidest reason I've ever heard.

I dont let myself get bullied into changing my playstyle. If someone cant deal with it, thats their problem, not mine. Im not lurking, im not doing anything without reasons, im not shamelessly wagoning. I probably could of said that last part better though, im usually more like ZA and just get short with people who are playing anti-town.

No one is trying to bully you into changing your playstyle! You can play however you want. However, everyone else can as well.Even if it does block you, you don't have to change it.

Also, why are you currently being different from ZA?

And yes, it is detrimental to the town to have you call people town. It gives scum a better understanding of who seems to be the leader and who the town trusts. IF that person is town, then they are a huge threat to scum because that usually means they're good at scum-hunting and will find the scum. When they find the scum, they lynch the scum.So the scum kill them in the early stages when people announce that a certain person is "town" or "obvtown".

Leader =/= most town in all cases. Also the best scumhunter or the biggest threat to scum is not always the most obv-town player. Scum see things town doesnt since they know more about the game, maybe the person who is seen as leaning town is on the right track so gets killed over the person who most people see as town. Also if you are really so concerned about me calling people town since they are going to get killed, it also starts having the scum think about a town RB, JK or doc that can be messing them up.

Wait, you're saying that in all cases that the Leader=/= the most town? The human psychology is to trust their leader meaning in this game to trust them you think that they are town. So usually Leader=Most town.

How do they know more about the game? All they know, is that they have scum partners. That's it! So why would they kill the person that is leaning town? They could have a higher probably of persuading the town to mislynch that person than to mislynch the leader of the town.

Yes, there is most likely a PR in this game. As there are in most Theme Games. Scum should already know this.

I am more comfortable with town read on average then scum reads, they end up being much more accurate then scum reads on a whole (mostly due to VIs and whatnot but...). EIther way, PoE is a decent way of at least breaking down the scum pool quite a bit. If I can take a third of the players alive out of the equation, im going to do that.

Can you give me a sample of games where you've used this method before?

I have one finished game as scum, and am dead in one. You should know I use this method though.

I know you use this method. I am wondering how effective it is. In the on ethat you're scum it's nulled. And the other one we can't discuss so give me another game.

[Iecerint]

Drake, we're coming up on a week since your first post. Are you any closer to being caught-up?

[SuperBridge]

OK, having had a read through, and then another (but no detailed post by post analysis) my impressions are:

ZONEACE I get a 'frustrated town' vibe. Not useful, but not scum either. (Town.)

Sironigous was Wall Of Text which is distinctly anti-town. However, no real scum vibes from Furry. The opposite if anything. (Town.)

Sajin is twitchy but could well be town. Very hard to push. If they're town, that's a good thing, but frustrating if you're trying to gauge them. (Neutral.)

Reasonable town read on falcomagno. (Town.)

halflight007 seems mostly towny, more so the more I read them. (Town.)

Zeikhunter seems a little conciliatory and therefore scummish. (Neutral, tending scum.)

MafiaSSK is rubbing me up the wrong way but I can't tell if that's a scum tell or just... they're rubbing me up the wrong way. On the other hand, I just noticed wall-of-quotes with little content, which is anti-town. For various reasons, I would peg them as the second scum (I'm assuming two scum), over Zeikhunter. (Scum.)

Timeeater is lurky. No read on DrakeTheFake. (Neutral.)

Killa seven seems to be trying to avoid putting out anything people can get a read on, but that level of disinterest is usually town. Probably just a lazy townie. (Town.)

Y gives me no read at all, and by now I should have one. Odd. (Neutral.)

Icerint's post 374 makes me think scum. The post massively pings my scumdar. Since whenever that happens, it's because the player is scum, I will go with

Unvote. Vote: Icerint

I think Icerint has been working very, very hard to keep discussion moving in chosen directions - lots of questions, lots of opinions on various aspects of play - but what I am not seeing is a commitment to hunting out scum. The only serious vote I can find is on MafiaSSK, removed without explanation. If I read with the question 'does this play help scum?' (rather than the less useful 'does it seem anti-town' or the misleading 'is it scummy?') then I think yes, Icerint's play does help scum. (Scum.)


Top four scum picks in order scummy-->townie:
Icerint
MafiaSSK
Zeikhunter
Sajin

[halflight007]

Welcome to the game, SuperBridge. Nice to be playing with you. that said, something about your first post:

I notice that you, too, have a tendency to announce who is scum and who is town in your opinion. My question is, why did you take all that time to list who you think the scum are, if you only gave really definitive terms for why you were voting for one of them? Could you have sacrificed your opinions on the townies (and maybe the neutrals) to elaborate on reasons why you pegged certain players as scum?

Example:

MafiaSSK is rubbing me up the wrong way but I can't tell if that's a scum tell or just... they're rubbing me up the wrong way. On the other hand, I just noticed wall-of-quotes with little content, which is anti-town. For various reasons, I would peg them as the second scum (I'm assuming two scum), over Zeikhunter. (Scum.)

What is scummy about MafiaSSK? What about him is "rubbing you the wrong way?"

Also, apologies for the IIoA: Assuming the usual ratio of 1 scum to every 3 town, we should be dealing with 3 scum here. So post top fours instead of threes - three scum, one neutral/townie-leaning.

[Iecerint]

I unvoted SSK because he'd just answered a series of questions I'd directed at him, and I was satisfied with his answers. It's true that I haven't voted as much as I could have so far. The reason for this is that Sajin seems the scummiest to me (for reasons I've listed; check my iso), but it's poor play for scum to set up implicit 1-for-1 exchanges. So I've been trying to puzzle that out.

Drake, you've commented that it took falko a long time to produce the PM transcripts. What do you make of Sajin never producing said transcripts?

halflight may be referring to Zone's claimed PR.

I have no idea what you find scummy about this. O_o

[MafiaSSK]

Superbridge: How do I have little content in my quote walls? I have at least two sentences per quote. Aslo what are the various other reasons why I'm scum? You should list mmore of them.

Also about K7,Superbridge. Usually when a player posts this little content they are seen as as scummy because they are not contributing to the scumhunting party (a.k.a. town). Also another problem with your case on K7 is that he has this little disinterest in EVERY game he's in. So by your logic, he'd always be town even though he isn't always.

[killa seven]

Superbridge: How do I have little content in my quote walls? I have at least two sentences per quote. Aslo what are the various other reasons why I'm scum? You should list mmore of them.

Also about K7,Superbridge. Usually when a player posts this little content they are seen as as scummy because they are not contributing to the scumhunting party (a.k.a. town). Also another problem with your case on K7 is that he has this little disinterest in EVERY game he's in. So by your logic, he'd always be town even though he isn't always.

yea ssk is right i always play the same way.