Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[GIEFF]

My succint (-er) case on camn:

I believe camn's actions demonstrate a mindset of a player who is much more interested in being viewed as town than in scumhunting. This is scummy, and goes straight to the core of the difference between scum's and town's goals and motivation.

There are multiple instances of camn's focus on "townifying" herself sneaks out. Here are the ones I found:

1. Post 149: Camn got angry at my investigation into her meta, and voted me in retaliation for it. As she never pursued this vote seriously (giving no pressure, and even ignoring my subsequent questions), it was clear to me that she was grandstanding - faking her suspicion of me so that she would
   appear
   to be hunting scum, as she had done no scumhunting up to that point. See the bottom of Post 177 and Post 180 for details.
   
   My suspicions were made stronger by camn's Post 380, in which she says that townies get mad when people call them scummy, which retro-actively explains her own behavior when I called her scummy.
   
   
2. Post 337:
   

   Are you two saying that it would make sense for ME AS SCUM to AVIOD voting lurkers?
   Really?
   Cuz I often get called SCUMMY for VOTING lurkers!

   camn reveals that she is often called scummy for voting lurkers. camn had said she would support a lurker-lynch, but had not voted a lurker. This is likely why she hadn't done so - she was afraid someone would call her scummy. A pro-town player does not put fear of being called scum above voting for scummy players.
   
   See Post 338 for details.
   
   
3. Also in Post 337:
   

   The reason I voiced my support is because, if I see a filthy lurker at L-1, I will hammer, and I don't want you guys saying it "came out of nowhere" just because you are too lazy to check my meta.
   HOWEVER, I have been catching shit for lurker-tunneling lately.. so I am trying to cool it a little.

   She is talking about who she wants to lynch NOT in order to pressure scummy players, but in order to make herself seem less scummy later on. camn makes my point for me. Nobody in the game can deny this -
   camn is more focused on making herself look townie than on catching scum
   .

But what tipped her above Battle-Mage on my scum-meter was when she lied about defending herself, LIED about making her behavior seem less scummy:

Just restating things you see, even though they are not really scummy or significant at all....... this is just IIoA, and is one of Tar's Tells.

Is it me or are you mild-OMGUSing everyone who asks you a question or wonders something about you?

So.. did either of you have a POINT when you mentioned this? Are you saying I should be voting a lurker now? are you saying that I am scum because I am NOT voting a lurker?

Yes. The point is that you're acting differently. It might have a motive.
You can do what you want.
It doesn't make you scum on it's own, no.

Camn... if you wanna know so you can OMGUS me too. Yes, you're acting scummy. OMGUS, evasiveness, lack of scumhunting, odd reactions to questions, you're recoiling too much...

Camn responded in Post 380:

@ Alex... I theorize that OMGUS is, if anything, a town-tell. Townies get mad when people call them scummy. Scum get scared.
But then again, I don't believe in town-tells, so I call it null.

camn tacitly admits to OMGUS by defending the behavior, even though she denied the same charge when I made it. I asked camn about this inconsistency, and she responded, in post 408:

Is it me or are you mild-OMGUSing everyone who asks you a question or wonders something about you?

With that additional bit of context, so easily left out by GEIFF.. you can see that Alex was referring to me OMGUS-ing "everyone".

Obviously I don't need to reply to that, because it is nuts.
But a little chat on OMGUS theory? I would love to.

camn claims she was NOT defending herself. Which is demonstrably, objectively, false - she was clearly defending her own behavior. It is incredibly scummy to try to defend yourself in such an indirect way, and then to lie about it later on.

There is no pro-town reason for this lie, but camn needed to lie in order to explain her inconsistency in admitting OMGUS to alex, yet denying OMGUS to me.

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Mastin (4): Zachrulez, Benmage, Debonair Danny DiPietro, camn
GIEFF (2): Kmd4390, jammer
Battle Mage (1): Mastin
Zachrulez (1): SpyreX
SensFan (1): alexhans
VP Baltar (1): Battle Mage
camn (1): GIEFF
alexhans (1): VP Baltar

Not Voting: Cephrir, blackcatcontract, SensFan

8 to lynch

[Benmage]

Yes, the self-aggrandizement + Mastin's overall play was the reason for my vote.

Well.. why didn't you state those reasons at the time of your vote, then?
And would you characterize this behavior of YOURS as 'OMGUS'???

I had fallen behind with this game and was trying to catchup if I failed to mention this, or make clear my reasoning, then that was a rushed mistake on my part.

[camn]

(camn intentionally ignoring Geiff)

Yes, the self-aggrandizement + Mastin's overall play was the reason for my vote.

Well.. why didn't you state those reasons at the time of your vote, then?
And would you characterize this behavior of YOURS as 'OMGUS'???

I had fallen behind with this game and was trying to catchup if I failed to mention this, or make clear my reasoning, then that was a rushed mistake on my part.

There is no reason to say "if"..

I attest that you did, in post 82, Vote Mastin with no reason given whatsoever. Do you deny it?
I only press the point because you say "if"... like maybe I am reading wrong.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 52#1757652

Please review.. maybe you can give me an answer without equivocation?

[GIEFF]

@ Battle Mage - Please respond to my Post 378. You have acknowledged its existence, but have not given hypo-town reasons for your actions. Does this mean there are not any?


-------
Thank you for your player-rundown, camn.

------

Voting for ANYONE other than a player who you think is scum, is scummy.

camn voted for me twice, and did not think I was scum either time. Reconcile the inconsistency in your claim about what you find scummy and your refusal to apply it to camn.

Yes, the self-aggrandizement + Mastin's overall play was the reason for my vote.

Well.. why didn't you state those reasons at the time of your vote, then?

Kmd voted me with absolutely no reasoning in Post 319. Reconcile the inconsistency in your suspicion of Benmage with your refusal to apply the same standard to Kmd.

-------

Of COURSE that makes sense. Lurkers are bad for the town. Why would scum want to remove them?

This also shows that you are tailoring your behavior to what you think others will perceive as scummy.

Wait, so you are saying that she is avoiding tunnelling on lurkers so she will looking intentionally scummy? I don't get what you are arguing here.

I am arguing that camn believes voting lurkers is scummy, which explains why she hasn't done it, even though it is pro-town to vote those whom you think are scum.

[Kmd4390]

GIEFF, do you think that Camn and I are scum together?

[SensFan]

GIEFF, do you think that Camn and I are scum together?

Pssh, its you/me/Camn/BM, remember?

[GIEFF]

GIEFF, do you think that Camn and I are scum together?

I find both of you scummy. The fact that three or four players are all calling each other town makes me think there is one or two scum taking advantage of some townies.

You are so sure camn is town that you don't apply scumtells to her - this is scummy no matter camn's alignment. As is voting for me for no reason, and then using things that happen AFTER your vote to justify it.

[SpyreX]

Weep not, for I hath come home.

Expect serious words from me coming in spurts tonight / tomorrow. SERIOUS WORDS.

[camn]

Kmd voted me with absolutely no reasoning in Post 319. Reconcile the inconsistency in your suspicion of Benmage with your refusal to apply the same standard to Kmd.

A) I thought we had Detente.
B) BENMAGE is the one who brought up voting with no reasoning. Not me, and not KMD. You remember, he labeled it "OMGUS". My questioning of Benmage is ongoing. Stay out of it unless you can keep up.

I am arguing that camn believes voting lurkers is scummy, which explains why she hasn't done it, even though it is pro-town to vote those whom you think are scum.

A) I thought we had Detente.
B) I believe in Policy-Lynching lurkers. I don't believe all lurkers are scum.
C) I

don't

believe voting lurkers is scummy. I do it all the time.
D) So far I haven't seen a problem with the pace of this game.

Voting for ANYONE other than a player who you think is scum, is scummy.

This is totally untrue, and I disagree with it utterly.
E.G., policy lynches., voting no-lynch, clarity-lynches, revenge lynches, pressure votes, lurkerlynching.

[Benmage]

(camn intentionally ignoring Geiff)

Yes, the self-aggrandizement + Mastin's overall play was the reason for my vote.

Well.. why didn't you state those reasons at the time of your vote, then?
And would you characterize this behavior of YOURS as 'OMGUS'???

I had fallen behind with this game and was trying to catchup if I failed to mention this, or make clear my reasoning, then that was a rushed mistake on my part.

There is no reason to say "if"..

I attest that you did, in post 82, Vote Mastin with no reason given whatsoever. Do you deny it?
I only press the point because you say "if"... like maybe I am reading wrong.

Yes, you must be reading wrong. The post clearly hints at it, despite myself being rushed. Also there is a post, what 4 minutes after that reiterates the cause.

Why are you strung up on the word "if". I think it fits perfectly with what occurred and with what I was trying to illustrate. Your nitpickyness is going nowhere.

[Benmage]

[
I

don't

believe voting lurkers is scummy. I do it all the time.

Me too.

[SpyreX]

Ok, its obvious from catching up thus far that some of you are sick. Swine flu or whatever, there's something going on.

Get a bucket.

Vomit IN the bucket. Not somehow get it INTO the computer.

However, I'm cool with it because this vomit lends credence to something very important: I'd put money there is a scum-split between those that have the word sickness and those that dont.

The Deathly Ill:

Alexhans
Battle Mage
Benmage
GIEFF
Mastin

No way in hell all this spew is town. Of the above there is scum.

Now, WIFOM all you want or call shitty play or whatever - BM's move with "who is the cop"

in this setup

reeks town.

Additionally, I'm taking off the the tinfoil regarding Mastin for now.

So, of: (Alex, Benmage, GIEFF) there is a scum.

NOW, on the absolute flipside:

Cephrir - 4 posts (NOTE: THIS IS AS MANY AS I WHO HAD TO PAY FOR MY DAMN INTERNET ON VACATION HAVE)

Actually, you know what?

Unvote, vote: Cephrir

The fact there has been this power lurking is suspect.
The fact that I saw my name get sniped AND this whole hulabloobloo about "not scumhunting" get shot out (by GIEFF towards Camn ffs) is suspect.

Cephrir is beyond normal lurking. This is hiding in the waterfall of a buddies vomit.

[Benmage]

Now, WIFOM all you want or call shitty play or whatever - BM's move with "who is the cop"

in this setup

reeks town.[/quote]
Couldn’t disagree more. If that is what passes as a good trap…well damn.

Additionally, I'm taking off the the tinfoil regarding Mastin for now.

Wonderful. How about a why?

So, of: (Alex, Benmage, GIEFF) there is a scum.

Minus me it’s a possibility. Both have illustrated scummyness at different times. However I again refer to randomly selecting people, calling “of these peope” there is scum, and probably being correct. I.E. this is meaningless.

The vote on Cephrir is a possibility. Sensfan, do some more sexy and tell us if Ceph is active elsewhere.

[Benmage]

Wow failed at quoting.. but the first part of my last post is a Spryex quote up to "If that is what passes as a good trap...well damn" That was me.

Now, WIFOM all you want or call shitty play or whatever - BM's move with "who is the cop"

in this setup

reeks town.

Couldn’t disagree more. If that is what passes as a good trap…well damn.
Like this ^^

[SpyreX]

Its not that it was a "good trap" - its the motivation for it.

The only outcome(s) possible were: catching a retarded scum or nothing.

There is no scum machinations behind it nor, with the way he did it, an overall "ohh shit thats so town move".

Its genuine in what it is.

And if you think my list is random well that just confirms your place on it. The amount of spew (which you have been a part of) is not an accident - especially in a mountainous game.

[GIEFF]

Spy - here is a list of posts / day and characters / day from this game:

[mrow]Player[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / Day[col]GIEFF[col]8.2[col]6[col]alexhans[col]3.4[col]5.4[col]camn[col]8.1[col]2.5[col]Battle Mage[col]3.5[col]2.1[col]Kmd4390[col]6.4[col]2[col]Mastin[col]1.8[col]1.5[col]Benmage[col]3.9[col]1.5[col]jammer[col]2.3[col]1.2[col]VP Baltar[col]2.7[col]1[col]SensFan[col]2.6[col]0.8[col]Zachrulez[col]3.4[col]0.8[col]blackcatcontract[col]2.5[col]0.8[col]Kairyuu[col]1[col]0.4[col]Debonair Danny DiPietro[col]1[col]0.4[col]SpyreX[col]0.5[col]0.3[col]Cephrir[col]0.5[col]0.2[col][col][col][col]

Looking at this table, the top 5 people on my scum-list (based on actions, not on lurking) are in the top 5 spots after me. This is probably because I am not able to find scummy things from people who don't post a lot, and so I focus on the more-active people, which allows scum-lurking to be a successful strategy. Which is bad.



Spy, do you have any suspicions of anybody based on something besides what you call "spew"? Have you read my case of BM in post 378, or my case on camn at the top of this page?

What do you mean when you say "saw your name get sniped?"

[Kmd4390]

You are so sure camn is town that you don't apply scumtells to her - this is scummy no matter camn's alignment. As is voting for me for no reason, and then using things that happen AFTER your vote to justify it.

Actually, knowing Camn's meta, things that you are calling scumtells are things that I have seen Camn do as town. I've even called her scum for most of the same reasons before. And I've always been wrong (except in Spy's Mini Normal). And is it my fault you did things later to reinforce my opinion on you?

Voting for ANYONE other than a player who you think is scum, is scummy.

This is totally untrue, and I disagree with it utterly.
E.G., policy lynches., voting no-lynch, clarity-lynches, revenge lynches, pressure votes, lurkerlynching.

While I disagree with policy lynching and revenge lurking, and even lurkerlynching depending on the situation, I guess I see your point. I just don't think Sens exactly qualifies as any of these things.

[camn]

Yes, you must be reading wrong. The post clearly hints at it, despite myself being rushed. Also there is a post, what 4 minutes after that reiterates the cause.

I just want clarity.
I don't know why you are going back and forth on this...

Are you saying you in fact DID provide reasons.. but that they were just "hinted"?
Or that you forgot to because you were 'catching up'?

Please answer clearly.
Did you or did you not provide reasoning for your vote in post 82?
If so, could you point it out, because I don't see it.

If you want to know the "why" of this.. I will tell you.

While you were insulting me you said this:

You mention me what…once before in the text in a null reference and than drop a post which only contains a vote. No prior/lead-up explanation. Just a vote. Period. End of story. That in my book is a quintessential example of an “omgus” vote.

And when I look at post 82.. it looks like you did exactly that thing.
I wonder if you see it the same way?

Because before your vote, the only thing you said in reference to Mastin was:

So aren’t all roads point towards Battle Mage?

Which hardly is any kind of accusation or 'context', wouldn't you agree?

In fact, maybe I am the crazy one... @GIEFF (or anyone).. what do you think about this?
Am I nuts, or is Benmage a giant hypocrite?
Am I delusional, or did Benmage HIMSELF do the very thing that HE calls "an omgus-vote/seemed scummy/made you look like a bad player"?

I even gave him the chance to say it was RVS.. but he says no.

[GIEFF]

And is it my fault you did things later to reinforce my opinion on you?

No. But it IS your fault you provided no reasoning to start with, and it IS your fault that you still haven't really given any reasons, just like Battle Mage, Sens, and camn.

In fact, maybe I am the crazy one... @GIEFF (or anyone).. what do you think about this?

Yes, I think his Mastin vote qualifies as what he calls an "OMGUS" vote, but what really is a vote without much analysis before it. I think it is scummy to be the 4th vote on a wagon without giving any reasoning, especially if nobody else has given much, either.

What I don't get is why you are so focused on a single vote from page 4 that has no reasoning when there are so many OTHER votes without any reasoning. To me, it looks like you are focused on Benmage because he was so rude to you, which is understandable.

[Kmd4390]

I didn't give reasons yet at the time because I was just starting out and wasn't looking to convince anyone yet.

[Benmage]

@Gieff. That analysis proves no one save DDD and Ceph are lurking or need to be more active.

Camn. I’ve answered you already. Re-read what I’ve recently said. But here is some more info if it helps. This is getting so tiresome so I hope it ends here.

The hinting aspect to the vote:

However, the tinfoil says that Mastin as scum could go the brazen I wouldn't do this as scum because it would be awesome.

It is an interesting attempt Mastin could be employing here as scum. Especially as he so justly declared how he would have acted. But if he really was scum, wouldn’t acting the way one would expect you to act be illogical while acting in contrast to the predictable action be most rational.

If I had voted right after this statement would have I avoided all this useless spew from camn?

From a post 1:30 hours following post 82, further explaining my vote.

I am much more inclined to vote for Mastin who initiated this motive, and auto-ruled himself out, because he would obviously kill someone else if he was scum.

Because before your vote, the only thing you said in reference to Mastin was:

So aren’t all roads point towards Battle Mage?

Which hardly is any kind of accusation or 'context', wouldn't you agree?

In fact, maybe I am the crazy one... @GIEFF (or anyone).. what do you think about this?
Am I nuts, or is Benmage a giant hypocrite?
Am I delusional, or did Benmage HIMSELF do the very thing that HE calls "an omgus-vote/seemed scummy/made you look like a bad player"?

I even gave him the chance to say it was RVS.. but he says no.

This is incorrect. As aforementioned. Besides I’ve already stated if I failed to properly mention it, it was an error due to catching up.

Yet I didn’t deter from the vote. And continued to back it. You voted for me and never commented on it. I’m done with you being a nuisance bring something constructive to the table, and I may respond to you again.

[Benmage]

What I don't get is why you are so focused on a single vote from page 4 that has no reasoning when there are so many OTHER votes without any reasoning. To me, it looks like you are focused on Benmage because he was so rude to you, which is understandable.

Indeed. But i'm done.

[Benmage]

Its not that it was a "good trap" - its the motivation for it.

The only outcome(s) possible were: catching a retarded scum or nothing.

There is no scum machinations behind it nor, with the way he did it, an overall "ohh shit thats so town move".

Its genuine in what it is.

And if you think my list is random well that just confirms your place on it. The amount of spew (which you have been a part of) is not an accident - especially in a mountainous game.

I am not saying the list was random. I am saying I could make just as an effective list, doing it randomly.

"Catching a retard scum" exactly...not a likely scenario. Yet he's been gaining some "townpoints" for it for certain people, which I don't like.

[Benmage]

Oh wow multipostssss, lol. I meant in my last one to re-ask Spry, why you excluded Mastin from being scummy?